Netflix original "Bright"

[TheMightyQuinn]

So, this just came out this morning, and I have to admit, i rather enjoyed it.

It wasn't a blockbuster or anything, but I really enjoyed the attempt at modern magic and interaction between the races, racism ECT.

I probably enjoyed the graffiti scenes at the beginning the most as a great and colorful was to establish the setting without having to beat you over the head with narrative or something.

Anyone else see it yet?

[JoshL]

Just finished it, and absolutely loved it! They did a great job blending a fantasy epic with a gritty cop film. The world was well done and interesting, and I hope they do more with it.

[Blackhawk748]

I went in thinking itd be Shadowrun with less cyperpunk, and i was not disappointed. Good movie, with excellent acting and great visuals. Solid all around.

[TheMightyQuinn]

I went in thinking itd be Shadowrun with less cyperpunk, and i was not disappointed. Good movie, with excellent acting and great visuals. Solid all around.

Exactly. I thought it was really well done.

Rare magic, and no cyberware, but I hope they do more with it too.

It seems like they meant to do more with the orcs too, since they had a lot of the clan / traditions in the background (the shaman ect), but it made for a very immersive world.

I couldn't quite figure out if they wanted orcs to be superhuman strong or not.

I think it could actually be a really fun d20 modern setting yo have a game in.

[Pex]

What is it about?

[TheMightyQuinn]

Here's a synopsis I found



In an alternate present day, humans, orcs, elves and fairies have been coexisting since the beginning of time. Two police officers, one a human, the other an orc, embark on a routine night patrol that will alter the future of their world as they know it. Battling both their own personal differences as well as an onslaught of enemies, they must work together to protect a young female elf and a thought-to-be-forgotten relic, which, in the wrong hands, could destroy everything.

[Reddish Mage]

The trailer that chooses to focus on the scene (apparently played for laughs) that "fairy lives don't matter" puts a bad taste in my mouth. Only partly because of any political implication, Mostly because they choose to open the movie with a joke about killing a possibly sentient being using a bug zapper and fly swatter presumably because its annoying like an insect.

Read the reviews of the movie, I read that it double downs on stereotyping orcs (with recognizable racial stereotypes for people of color) simultaneously with its message of diversity and conclusion. The movie implies the orcs themselves are responsible for their condition.

I'm not sure if I can stomach this movie.

[Blackhawk748]

The trailer that chooses to focus on the scene (apparently played for laughs) that "fairy lives don't matter" puts a bad taste in my mouth. Only partly because of any political implication, Mostly because they choose to open the movie with a joke about killing a possibly sentient being using a bug zapper and fly swatter presumably because its annoying like an insect.

Read the reviews of the movie, I read that it double downs on stereotyping orcs (with recognizable racial stereotypes for people of color) simultaneously with its message of diversity and conclusion. The movie implies the orcs themselves are responsible for their condition.

I'm not sure if I can stomach this movie.

To quote Jakoby (the orc in the movie) "2000 years ago, Orc chose the wrong side, we're still paying for that" So in that way they are. Frankly its not as bad as it sounds, as its this thing in the background for the most part and i felt it was rather well done.

[BannedInSchool]

I'm not sure if I can stomach this movie.
I've seen others saying that the social tones are garbage, as one would expect from something produced by "Trigger Warning Entertainment". So, yeah, if you're conscious of that then it sounds like a pass.

[TheMightyQuinn]

I didn't think the social tones were garbage, and I tend to care about that.

Nothing is perfect, and sure, it's a hard topic to handle well, but they tried to point out how little sense racism makes, or that's what I saw.

[Daer]

good movie even if first half hour or so was kinda pushing off with way fairy got killed and then whole kill the orc stuff seemed so exaggerated.

But as action started it was enjoyable. Would have wished to see bit more differences that existence of magic and different humanoid species would have done. I mean bit more imagination on world.

and then shouldn't' have watched with finnish subtitles.. for brights they used translation 'säihky' which isn't very cool sounding, and closer to 'twinkle' or 'sparkle' but again finnish isn't that great language for cool sounding stuff can't blame movie for that.

But again int he end very enjoyable movie and i hope this will come a thing and movie gets sequel or perhaps even better tv serie.

[Kitten Champion]

I think Ayer-styled grittiness is interesting with the fantasy elements. However, as a whole it feels like a whole bunch of harder-edged cop movie cliches smashed together. Honestly the second act felt like 16 Blocks maybe with some Assault on Precinct 13 mixed in, and there's a lot of Training Day in there. While I'm sure that's somewhat the point, to channel those elements into a fantasy-esque world... the fact that Orcs, Elves, and Magic are involved on some level seemed rather incidental for a substantive length of the movie.

I wouldn't say it's bad or even that I disliked it really, the direction is quality and the actors do good work, it's just rather underwhelming script-wise. I couldn't help feel I'd rather have been following the Magical FBI people in a police procedural, rather than the kind-of-everyman Will Smith going through the fantasy version of the Urban Hellscape.

[Lacuna Caster]

Rotten Tomatoes- 30% critic score, 90% audience score. Well, this should be interesting...

[lunaticfringe]

I enjoyed it. I wasn't looking for anything deep or socially woke, just a fun Modern Fantasy Action Movie. I was not disappointed. If you want a movie version of your super serial shadowrun or d20 modern game you probably will be.

I wouldn't mind them revisiting that World in future movies or series. I want to know more about the Dark Lord & Shield of Light.

[Tom Tearcamel]

I want to know more about The Shield of Light, they seemed like a run of the mill domestic terrorist cell by their compound, but we never really got to know any personally, except the drunk, who was extremely underused. I expected him to come back in the last act. (Maybe them busting him out of lockup to see what he knew) I want to know how he picked up strange vibes off of Ward.

Also, their symbol was super cool.

[Blackhawk748]

Rotten Tomatoes- 30% critic score, 90% audience score. Well, this should be interesting...

I seem to be noticing and increasing disconnect between the audience and critics.

[Starbuck_II]

Orcs seem super strong and tough, but weirdly unathletic. Why can't orcs jump really good? Seems strangest thing I ever heard to joke about.

Elves are apparently ninjas with their speed/agility.

Was a really good story. Loved the mixture of magic and modern.

Hope they do a TV series like that.
So about the Brights
So Brights are wizards and wands can only be safer used by them. Not fully safe as the elf started dying from repeated magic useage. I'm surprised they didn't chuck the wand at the gangster and hope they kill themselves.

[Blackhawk748]

Orcs seem super strong and tough, but weirdly unathletic. Why can't orcs jump really good? Seems strangest thing I ever heard to joke about.

Elves are apparently ninjas with their speed/agility.

Was a really good story. Loved the mixture of magic and modern.

Hope they do a TV series like that.
So about the Brights
So Brights are wizards and wands can only be safer used by them. Not fully safe as the elf started dying from repeated magic useage. I'm surprised they didn't chuck the wand at the gangster and hope they kill themselves.


They arent, they just cant jump apparently. My guess would be weight, which kinda makes sense cuz they arent lean muscle by any stretch.

[Lacuna Caster]

I seem to be noticing and increasing disconnect between the audience and critics.
Yeah, I didn't realise (https://qz.com/1165113/rotten-tomatoes-scores-for-star-wars-the-last-jedi-and-netflixs-bright-do-critics-still-matter/) there was such a gulf between critics and audiences on the Last Jedi, for example. I thought it had it's problems, sure, but nothing that seemed to bother the fanbase previously. What's up with that?

[Kitten Champion]

I suspect the disconnect here is largely that the critics watch more movies than your average person. The cliched and repetitive elements of Bright are more evident.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah, I didn't realise (https://qz.com/1165113/rotten-tomatoes-scores-for-star-wars-the-last-jedi-and-netflixs-bright-do-critics-still-matter/) there was such a gulf between critics and audiences on the Last Jedi, for example. I thought it had it's problems, sure, but nothing that seemed to bother the fanbase previously. What's up with that?

Go look through TALK thread


I suspect the disconnect here is largely that the critics watch more movies than your average person. The cliched and repetitive elements of Bright are more evident.

Maybe. I certainly don't watch an awful lot of cop films so the cliches don't stand out as much. Combine that with the fact that I find the setting fascinating and that the action feels well paced and I'm pretty willing to overlook an overabundance of tropes.

[HolyDraconus]

Here's my take on it.




For starters, way too much focus on political bs. Considering who the main actor is and one of the studios in charge, I wasn't surprised, but it's there. Fairies are the equivalent of parrots in this movie: can talk but aren't sentient, so the opening trailer isn't as bad as it could of been.

Did I mention political bs? Cause I mean it. Even though you have a cop movie that doubles down on it, it's there. Excessively. Even tho there's magic, it's there. And honestly, this whole thing would of faired a LOT better if they serialized it instead of presenting it as is. You don't care for Ward, but is told no one wants to deal with him. Sure. His life is crap, but it's not shown how. Just told. Jakoby it feels like you are forced to like even though at the end of the movie you realize that Ward is RIGHT in how he is treating him (without trust), and everyone else that you think is sum, IS scum.
There's a lot of questions that it doesn't answer (like why in the entire movie there is shown two people handling these super power weapons barehanded, if it has a 99% chance of killing you) and I get the feeling if this was a series, or even a mini series, they would of gotten you more invested. It's a good idea though......if there wasn't so much bs political crap

[Dragonus45]

Mostly because they choose to open the movie with a joke about killing a possibly sentient being using a bug zapper and fly swatter presumably because its annoying like an insect.

The movie implies the orcs themselves are responsible for their condition.

I'm not sure if I can stomach this movie.

The fairy is pretty explicitly stated to be a common variety of pest and not a sentient creature. As for orcs being "responsible" it's clearly shown that despite the great evil monster in the backstory being an Elf and it being an Orc who united the world against said great evil racism, and purely that as Will Smiths character states during a scene in a locker room, has Orcs taking the full blame unfairly.


Orcs seem super strong and tough, but weirdly unathletic. Why can't orcs jump really good? Seems strangest thing I ever heard to joke about.

Elves are apparently ninjas with their speed/agility.

Was a really good story. Loved the mixture of magic and modern.

Given what Jakoby not only survives but walks away from without any debitating broken bones, no spoilers but it's a lot, I got the feeling they are sitting on some real heavy bone density that likely means they're a lot heavier then they look.


As for the movie, it was campy but fun in exactly the way I wanted. A schlocky, goofy but earnest D&D modern campaign made into a movie. My one complaint is theway they handled the language barrier bit.

[t209]

Well, at least the one with investigating nightmare outbreaks with an Orc security officer, an Orc shaman, dwarven hacker, an undead Samurai, and a Russian techie is way better.

[Reddish Mage]

Well, at least the one with investigating nightmare outbreaks with an Orc security officer, an Orc shaman, dwarven hacker, an undead Samurai, and a Russian techie is way better.

Wait they did a Shadowrun movie?

[Mikemical]

Read the reviews of the movie, I read that it double downs on stereotyping orcs (with recognizable racial stereotypes for people of color) simultaneously with its message of diversity and conclusion. The movie implies the orcs themselves are responsible for their condition.

Don't want to get too political, but:It's true. Anyone can aspire and work to become whatever they want. But unfortunately for some, if they do, they're seen as traitors to their race and pulled down, crabs in a bucket-style because "how dare this orc think he can become a doctor? He should be out there listening to [genre] music and gang-banging."

Also, the reviewers are the same ones that gave Last Jedi those 90+% scores, guess who I'm not gonna listen to?

Personally, I felt it was a good movie. Will Smith as a lead tends to be rather bland, though. I liked Edgar Ramirez' character Kandomere, though mostly because I'm GAR for him.

[Eldan]

Intro sequence was cool, but my brother and I made itonly about five minutes in before finding something else to watch. "Fairy lives dont matter" was loud-groan-bad, but it felt incredibly heavy handed and forced.

[Mikemical]

Intro sequence was cool, but my brother and I made itonly about five minutes in before finding something else to watch. "Fairy lives dont matter" was loud-groan-bad, but it felt incredibly heavy handed and forced.

Just watched it again with my cousin. You're missing out.

Warning: The movie isn't gonna sugar-coat anything, and it shouldn't. All the political stuff is on point. They don't dance around the issues they present, and its great how they tackled them head on. The action scenes are great, the humor is great, the drama is great. Will Smith actually didn't make me yawn after a long time.

10/10, will watch it again.

[Dragonus45]

Honestly all the complaints about the movie remind me why so many creators just never touch on race at all. Even a good faith effort gets slammed to hell and back for being less then perfect.

[Reddish Mage]

Don't want to get too political, but:It's true. Anyone can aspire and work to become whatever they want. But unfortunately for some, if they do, they're seen as traitors to their race and pulled down, crabs in a bucket-style because "how dare this orc think he can become a doctor? He should be out there listening to [genre] music and gang-banging."

Also, the reviewers are the same ones that gave Last Jedi those 90+% scores, guess who I'm not gonna listen to?

Personally, I felt it was a good movie. Will Smith as a lead tends to be rather bland, though. I liked Edgar Ramirez' character Kandomere, though mostly because I'm GAR for him.


Honestly all the complaints about the movie remind me why so many creators just never touch on race at all. Even a good faith effort gets slammed to hell and back for being less then perfect.

This movie doesn’t seem so much of a good faith effort as one that just throws up lots of graphically groan-worthy scenes, double downs on racial stereotypes, and gives the obvious message at the end.

In 2017 saying one should be inclusive and judge people by the content of their character and not the blueness of their skin can only feel novel at the end of a movie filled with ubiquitous racism. People know that message, what they don’t know is how various behaviors, messages, and biases reinforce a status quo contrary to the message. We don’t live in a world where people are as explicitly racist as in Bright. By establishing the status quo for fantasy races in an incredibly regressive world the movie does little to forward its moral. Instead it uses allegories that are themselves offensive in an effort to shock and please as accompaniments to the action.

If that racism is played for laughs and sheer entertainment, that’s when it starts to seem this is a movie that simply serves up racism for cheap thrills.

Names like “Trigger Warning Entertainment” and statements like “Fairy Lives Don’t Matter” take words that carry significant political meaning and make them meaningless. There is no deeper point to these gags, the words are twisted just to render certain words meaningless so they lose their potency. It is an effective device but it is not a cerebral one. It doesn’t state an argument against Trigger Warnings or that one shouldn’t say certain lives matter, it merely ridicules for its own sake.

[rooster707]

Well, at least the one with investigating nightmare outbreaks with an Orc security officer, an Orc shaman, dwarven hacker, an undead Samurai, and a Russian techie is way better.

That one was good, but personally I preferred the one about uncovering conspiracies with an orc sniper, a cybered-up human, a human decker, and a punk rock shaman. And I think there was a dog too?

[Kyberwulf]

I watched it. I liked it.

I think they missed the boat though. It would have done better as one of those short series that have been being put out lately.
Maybe a 3 or 4 part series.

I kept getting taken out of the movie with the mentions of the Dark lord and stuff. I really liked how they treated this as a world that had a history. Yet, without something shown of that history, it felt like these races were just thrown together ala shadowrun.

ON the subject of race relations and political aspects of the meta movie.

Personally, I didn't mind it. IN our world heavy handed soap box movies are pretty boring. I mean, in the end we are all human, so getting so preachy doesn't impress me. However, in this world, there are actual difference between the many different species. So it doesn't matter to much to me. I was able to tune it out.

I didn't care about the fairy dying, because in a lot of lore. There are so many different kind of fairies. That have a varying level of everything. So this fairy could have been one of the many inconsequential ones.

So, I think I would give this one a 3 out of 5. Could have been higher if it was given more backstory.. Was different enough with the dispite the use of so many standard cop movie tropes, that it raised it up from 2.

[t209]

Wait they did a Shadowrun movie?

Actually entire plot of Shadowrun: Hong Kong.

[Dr.Samurai]

I liked this movie, though it had its flaws.

Nick is kind of irritating. All the other orcs seem like regular people that have integrated into society in one way or another. Nick seems strangely like a fish out of water, despite the fact that he is said to have been raised among humans. He almost seems Vulcan-like in his inability to grasp normal social and linguistic cues.

Ward I liked. He was a "good" guy in the normal guy sort of way. The way that many people might actually be. You're a good person, but when the pressure is being put on and your back is actually to the wall, you might make some choices that go against your principles. But even then, there's a line you won't cross. It was a nice contrast with Nick's more story-like goodness.

The plot was simple, but was kept interesting by keeping them on the run and with several factions after them. Classic tropes, and they were done well here.

The "political" stuff in this movie seems to be a thing at first, but as the plot progresses it fades away into the background.

I'm interested in the world they were crafting, and I think the movie suffers a tad by not going into it's history further. Or maybe I missed a couple of things but... it's strange that the Dark Lord appears to be elven, and will be brought back by elves, and the elves still "run" the world. Meanwhile, the orcs sided with the Dark Lord, but an orc defeated him, but the orcs are a second class even to this day over it. Was this explained or did I misunderstand something?

[BWR]

It was pretty meh. Bland, predictable, not terribly interesting and walking cliches rather than characters. It doesn't help that I don't like Will Smith at all (is he a bad actor or is it just that everyone wants him to play basically the same character in everything?).
It could have been something decent but was a waste of time.

[Dragonus45]

I

I'm interested in the world they were crafting, and I think the movie suffers a tad by not going into it's history further. Or maybe I missed a couple of things but... it's strange that the Dark Lord appears to be elven, and will be brought back by elves, and the elves still "run" the world. Meanwhile, the orcs sided with the Dark Lord, but an orc defeated him, but the orcs are a second class even to this day over it. Was this explained or did I misunderstand something?

No that is essentially much how it happened, but Orcs are ugly and easy to blame and Elves are pretty and have a higher rate of brights giving them an easier time getting people to forget the past and giving them greater political clout to the point they pretty much rule the world. Although if Lizard People really are one of the races in the setting I imagine they are the ones properly running the politics.

[Vogie]

The feel of the movie is closest to Season 4 of Person of Interest, with Orcs and Magic instead of a giant Machine. A police procedural with Something Extra.

Bright could be the best video game movie ever made... if one presumes that they based it off of the Shadowrun game from 2007, the cross platform FPS that was largely ignored due to the popularity of Halo 3. That one specifically, because it was basically hated by everyone who ever played the Shadowrun tabletop RPG (or even the previous, and following video games), because it eschewed the hacking and spiritual aspects of the IP. The tree over the pool that Tikka wants to go to is a spitting image of the Tree of Life from the game. The bald male elf looks identical to one of the available PCs. And just like the game, if you were looking for a substantive story, you were left in want - the game didn't have a campaign mode either.

Thankfully, I've heard that a sequel was greenlit, so hopefully there's more they can show in this world.

[Reddish Mage]

Bright could be the best video game movie ever made... if one presumes that they based it off of the Shadowrun game from 2007

A video game everyone hated that was missing substantive story and spiritual aspects?

You have awfully low standards for best video game movie.

Yet you are clearly skilled in the art of condemning with faint praising.

[Vogie]

A video game everyone hated that was missing substantive story and spiritual aspects?

You have awfully low standards for best video game movie.

Yet you are clearly skilled in the art of condemning with faint praising.

To be fair, all of the other video game movies have been even more horrible... so it's not really a high bar. And AFAIK, they haven't explicitly stated it is based on the Shadowrun IP, which is probably wise, as it a)isn't set in the future, therefore b) has no cyberpunk elements. If someone were to say that Bright is to Shadowrun as The Matrix is to the Ghost in the Shell, then I'd agree.

It's not a bad movie. I really enjoyed it.

But if they shoehorned in the rest of the Shadowrun IP 'requirements', the movie would have been HORRIBLE. An introduction of a tiny piece of a universe hasn't been the main way to start a movie franchise. However... if Bright is the "Iron Man" slot for a Shadowrun Cinematic Universe, I'm excited. It's certainly starting off better than the DCCU.

[comicshorse]

To be fair, all of the other video game movies have been even more horrible... so it's not really a high bar.

Let me just interrupt to put in a good word for the first 'Silent Hill' movie, which I always liked as a decent B movie

[Lacuna Caster]

Nick is kind of irritating. All the other orcs seem like regular people that have integrated into society in one way or another. Nick seems strangely like a fish out of water, despite the fact that he is said to have been raised among humans. He almost seems Vulcan-like in his inability to grasp normal social and linguistic cues.

Ward I liked. He was a "good" guy in the normal guy sort of way.
I warmed to Ward a later on, but dear Gods is he an ******* in the first few minutes. I thought Nick was charming enough in a 'well-meaning over-eager rookie' kind of way.

I don't think I'm quite familiar enough with Cop Movies to spot all the derivative elements (I should probably go watch Training Day) so I don't think that bothered me more than generic Hero's Journey plotlines bother me in general. I will say I was kind of baffled by what was going on in the climactic fight scene, though. Were they implying that the Dark Lord was possessing the elven girl, or something similar? Was that ever really explained?

The political elements... I didn't quite know what to make of that, to be honest- e.g, it's fine for fairies to be non-sentient chattering pests, but was it either necessary or helpful to make them so human-shaped? I was personally torn between 'cringe-inducingly problematic' and 'hilariously brazen', so I wouldn't blame people for going either way.

[Lord Joeltion]

The trailer that chooses to focus on the scene (apparently played for laughs) that "fairy lives don't matter" puts a bad taste in my mouth. Only partly because of any political implication, Mostly because they choose to open the movie with a joke about killing a possibly sentient being using a bug zapper and fly swatter presumably because its annoying like an insect.

Read the reviews of the movie, I read that it double downs on stereotyping orcs (with recognizable racial stereotypes for people of color) simultaneously with its message of diversity and conclusion. The movie implies the orcs themselves are responsible for their condition.

I'm not sure if I can stomach this movie.
Oh, it can't possibly be worse than Okja. I'll give it a try as soon as I can


I seem to be noticing and increasing disconnect between the audience and critics.
I think the disconnection is older than you believe...


I suspect the disconnect here is largely that the critics watch more movies than your average person. The cliched and repetitive elements of Bright are more evident.
That, and the difference in taste. People don't generally share the same value parameters for art that critics tend to have. Taste is subjective in the end. That's what Ratatouille was trying to teach us all :smalltongue:

[Dr.Samurai]

I warmed to Ward a later on, but dear Gods is he an ******* in the first few minutes. I thought Nick was charming enough in a 'well-meaning over-eager rookie' kind of way.
Yeah, he's a little rough at first. Someone else mentioned not liking Will Smith, and I'm the same way. I typically find him annoying. But I feel like it worked in this movie. His character has no loyalty to Nick at first, and is just trying to free himself of the problems inherent in associating with Nick. Which I think is understandable. It sets up Ward as closer to a regular person. He's got his own problems, and he doesn't feel the need to throw himself on the cross just because Nick wants to swim against the current. I think that's pretty humanizing, and it begs the question "how far will I've got my own problems carry you?" And I really enjoy that setup because I think it serves to enhance the heroism that comes later

I don't think I'm quite familiar enough with Cop Movies to spot all the derivative elements (I should probably go watch Training Day) so I don't think that bothered me more than generic Hero's Journey plotlines bother me in general.
I don't think any of these were done poorly in the movie. I highly recommend you go see Training Day. Excellent movie.

I will say I was kind of baffled by what was going on in the climactic fight scene, though. Were they implying that the Dark Lord was possessing the elven girl, or something similar? Was that ever really explained?

I took it as fatigue or damage from being inexperienced, but it's a good question. The fact that we don't really know what was happening to her or where she went leaves me thinking there'll be a sequel. Which is cool.

The political elements... I didn't quite know what to make of that, to be honest- e.g, it's fine for fairies to be non-sentient chattering pests, but was it either necessary or helpful to make them so human-shaped? I was personally torn between 'cringe-inducingly problematic' and 'hilariously brazen', so I wouldn't blame people for going either way.
They should have gone further to make the fairy appear less human, because that scene was brutal.

The rest of it... eh, abuse of power by authority is nothing new. Corrupt PD, especially in LA, is nothing new. Stories about income and societal inequalities is nothing new. I don't think the movie was trying to comment on anything to be honest. The discrepancies are due to a fight with a dark lord centuries ago, so I'm not sure where you can really start drawing parallels with the real world.

[Vogie]

I will say I was kind of baffled by what was going on in the climactic fight scene, though. Were they implying that the Dark Lord was possessing the elven girl, or something similar? Was that ever really explained?
QUOTE]

It looked a whole lot like the black lines covering her mimicked the wounds Nick had
prior to her resurrection of him. Including a wound to the chest, where he had been shot.
I don't know if that was supposed to show that magic has an impact on the wielder, or if she did it wrong, or something else was going on. However, it wasn't explained AFAIK, so it may have just been that she got a case of the McGuffin Flu for all we know.

[QUOTE=comicshorse]Let me just interrupt to put in a good word for the first 'Silent Hill' movie, which I always liked as a decent B movie
I don't know if I ever saw that one, but it certainly has a B movie rating - it's also in the 30% Rotten Tomatoes club.

[Dienekes]

We don’t live in a world where people are as explicitly racist as in Bright. By establishing the status quo for fantasy races in an incredibly regressive world the movie does little to forward its moral. Instead it uses allegories that are

What world do you live in? Because in mine, we most certainly do. Hell, I can hear racist crap just taking my morning commute.

That said, the message was pretty anvilicious. Even if you agree with the message, the only reactions I ever see to such messages are ignorance, getting the message and disagreeing, or getting the message and agreeing.

Having a movie about these topics is really just for people who already agree to feel good about agreeing, rather than having any possibility of promoting change.

[Reddish Mage]

The rest of it... eh, abuse of power by authority is nothing new. Corrupt PD, especially in LA, is nothing new. Stories about income and societal inequalities is nothing new. I don't think the movie was trying to comment on anything to be honest. The discrepancies are due to a fight with a dark lord centuries ago, so I'm not sure where you can really start drawing parallels with the real world.

Its one thing if you want to say that the movie meant nothing to you about anything political, but the movie is objectively making politically and racially charged statements.

The movie is making explict statements with political language and using overt political imagery. There is a gratiutious scene where a hapless orc is getting beaten by the LAPD with their sticks and Will Smith challenges his partners loyalty. It does nothing to advance the plot but it helps establish how horrible the cops are. But, I don't suppose there's any significance to the story taking place in "LA" or that the cops are the "LAPD" since this is a fictional world.

Orcs are coded and mapped right into the slot for black people. The brutality and language shown on screen is lifted right from historical events and contemporary news and political movements. These events are still fresh and the political discourse its stealing its language and scenes from is going on now.

The movie-makers intentionally appropriated the language and imagery of contemporary politics and, at the very least, wanted the movie to appear contemporary and relevant. It does so in a very graphically violent manner with shocking imagery.

There is a question of what all the racism and racially motivated violence in the movie means, but there is no question it means something.

[Kyberwulf]

Orcs are coded and mapped right into the slot for black people.

So you are in effect.. you are saying that black people joined sides with some evil overlord thousands of years of years ago. Thus they deserve all the nasty things that happen to them?

[JoshL]

Let me just interrupt to put in a good word for the first 'Silent Hill' movie, which I always liked as a decent B movie

I will agree with this. The first 5 minutes of the second are astounding too, but the movie falls apart pretty quickly and isn't nearly as good as the first. Of course, I like video game movies and horror in general. Even when, and sometimes especially when they are bad.

[lunaticfringe]

I felt like the racism was an attempt to make a bit more realistic. Humans hate other Humans for being different so why wouldn't it exist in a world with other intelligent species?

I don't think it was trying to make a grandiose statement about institutional racism, just borrowing from real world examples.

I feel it was a bit clunky and confusing with so little background information. Mexicans still get blamed for the Alamo? Human Mexicans? Are Humans the only race with Ethnic groups like 99% of Fantasy? Are there Mexican Elves or are all Elves just Elves?

Still since I am a fan of the genre I'm used to not fretting over this. LotR wasn't about WW2, orcs weren't Nazis. I think it is misguided to assume deeper messages in Fantasy, that's more of a Sci-fi thing.

[Lacuna Caster]

There's no question that the movie is pretty directly equating orcs and blacks, and elves with the beverley hills crowd, etc. I'm not sure the movie is saying that Orcs are responsible for their own position, as such. The movie does suggest there are intrinsic differences between species when it comes to athletic performance, tracking, or magical ability, and I think there's some ground for saying that, ah, Orc culture could stand improvement in various respects. But Ward says that Orcs aren't statistically dumber than average, so whether that's an adequate explanation for the economic divide in their society, or the brutality of law enforcement, is kinda left ambiguous.

Also, it's actually fairly careful about not presenting any particular race as more pronouncedly evil than the others. Even aside from the protagonists, most of the elves are inferni, and most of the humans are gangsters or murdering cops. I don't think the good/bad ratio for Orcs on-screen is markedly higher than average.

[Dr.Samurai]

Its one thing if you want to say that the movie meant nothing to you about anything political, but the movie is objectively making politically and racially charged statements.
By all means, please share what these statements and comments are...

The movie is making explict statements with political language and using overt political imagery.
What are the statements that it is making? I'm not being funny here. I walked away from this movie without feeling like it was trying to tell me something about the real world. That seems opposite to your experience. What is it telling you?

There is a gratiutious scene where a hapless orc is getting beaten by the LAPD with their sticks and Will Smith challenges his partners loyalty. It does nothing to advance the plot but it helps establish how horrible the cops are.
There are plenty of scenes establishing how awful the cops are, including Internal Affairs. And in much more explicit ways. The movie doesn't show you what occurred before the beat down, so to pick this scene as the scene to establish how bad cops are is just strange.

Given that the orcs are seen lifting cars with ease, and getting rammed by vehicles into walls without so much as a scratch, the use of force required by police officers may be different than in the real world. I'm not seeing the parallels that you're seeing.

But all that aside, what is this scene telling you? What "explicit statement" are you getting out of this scene?

But, I don't suppose there's any significance to the story taking place in "LA" or that the cops are the "LAPD" since this is a fictional world.
Given that corruption and brutality are widespread in the real United States, sure. But what does that mean to you then? For me, you could slap any city onto their vest and it wouldn't change the story.

Orcs are coded and mapped right into the slot for black people.
Oh, ok. So centuries ago, blacks chose the wrong side of a war against a great evil, like, say Hitler, and they have been paying for that mistake ever since by being relegated to second class citizenry, that they in part are responsible for by clinging to tribal loyalty and eschewing the greater integrated society, to the point that there are no blacks in positions of power, leadership, or even among the police force. Yeah, ok...

The brutality and language shown on screen is lifted right from historical events and contemporary news and political movements. These events are still fresh and the political discourse its stealing its language and scenes from is going on now.

The movie-makers intentionally appropriated the language and imagery of contemporary politics and, at the very least, wanted the movie to appear contemporary and relevant. It does so in a very graphically violent manner with shocking imagery.
Ok, so what is the message again? What's the issue here?

There is a question of what all the racism and racially motivated violence in the movie means, but there is no question it means something.
Well what does it mean??

[Starbuck_II]

Orcs are coded and mapped right into the slot for black people.

So you are in effect.. you are saying that black people joined sides with some evil overlord thousands of years of years ago. Thus they deserve all the nasty things that happen to them?

They made sure to separate them by making them bad jumpers/basketball.

[Kyberwulf]

Kind of makes you wonder what Orcs thinks about chicken, watermelons, and grape dranks.

[Rynjin]

They probably think they're delicious, like everybody else does.

___

The movie was okay. I enjoyed the world building parts in the first half but the plot itself in the last half was a train wreck. They clearly ran up against a deadline/movie length limit and couldn't put everything they wanted in. Like coherency.

[Dr.Samurai]

Watermelon is not delicious...

[Mikemical]

Watermelon is not delicious...

U WOT M8
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________

Anyone who thinks that this movie is racist or in any way a negative portrayal of any ethnicity is just virtue signaling. It's a dumb Buddy Cop movie with magic. Enjoy it for what it is, because I for one, don't like when my make-believe fantasy flick starts to look like a political correctness sermon. Which is why I didn't like The Last Jedi.

Also, anyone else see the dragon the size of a 747 flying atop the skyline? I wonder what regulations are in place regarding huge, fire-breathing flying reptiles.

[Lacuna Caster]

Anyone who thinks that this movie is racist or in any way a negative portrayal of any ethnicity is just virtue signaling...
Mmmm.... no. With very minor differences, it totally is slotting orcs into the same cultural and economic niche as blacks. It's not even remotely subtle or understated about it. I literally can't think what else the movie could do to make it clearer.


Whether that counts as racist per se depends on what your definition of racism is. I mean, orcs have been cookie-cutter mook antagonists in enough fantasy fiction that you might assume it by default, but... I don't think the film itself depicts the orcs as especially nasty, stupid or otherwise deficient persons. If you take away everyone that just appears as background scenery or within the implied setting, there's at least as many human deplorables. Orcs are slow but strong and have some sensory perks, which isn't objectively superior or inferior. The elves are hyperproficient magic ninja supermodels, but their species is the most ambitiously villainous. It's kind of a wash.

If the movie is supposed to be a commentary on race, I would guess one reading might be 'race is real, but that's not the end of the world, and differences can actually be complimentary'. Or one could squint and say, 'there are always individual exceptions to the group'. I'm not sure that's a particularly profound statement, or that it provides a particularly satisfactory answer to why the setting is so rife with inequality when it's species are ostensibly equal-ish. But it's not exactly victim-blaming proxy Aryanism.

[Cheesegear]

The movie starts out like it does. Fairly overt imagery and symbolism that bear a passing resemblance to things that happen in the real world.
It's a fantasy medium. One of the best points in the Fantasy and Sci-Fi genres is its ability to hold up mirrors to our own society. Check. That's what it's doing.

Is it ham-fisted? Sure is. Does it help move the story along by helping me to associate Fantasy problems to real-world problems without resorting to lengthy dialogue and exposition sequences? Sure does.
"This not-real thing is kind of similar to the real thing you have in your real world. We don't need to explain it 'cause you already basically know all about it."
Nailed it.

What's the message of the movie, then? Are the first 15 minutes representative of the final product?

End;
Orcs and Humans could be friends.
Orcs can be good/trusted cops if you give them a chance. Also, some Humans are bad. Some human cops, are also bad.
...Everyone agrees that Elves are A-holes... But there might be a few good ones.

Got it. How do I apply that Fantasy message to the real world?
Got it. Simple and effective.

...I saw way worse in End of Watch.

[Reddish Mage]

That this movie is imitating real world events, makes use of real stereotypes and racial dynamics is obvious, and is mentioned both by the many critics and the few outliers like (Variety) that give this movie positive remarks. If every professional critic sees a message, I’m willing to say there is one there.

Changing a few characteristics here and there do not remove the obvious sources of inspiration or strip out its meaning. People will naturally make all sorts of inferences about Orcs simply by seeing some of this imagery.

Also there is a contradiction embedded in the analysis of this movie as cop movie with no racial signfiicance, and then immediately pivoting to contrast it with the noxious political significance of a Star Wars Episode VIII.

I genuinely cannot see the political significance of Star Wars VIII, and especially not how it resembles a sermon about being PC. Are you referring to its racially diverse cast? If so, how does this movie, which also features a diverse cast, avoid a similar message of PC-ness, especially as you claim there is no special political significance to what Bright does with its racially diverse cast?

Or does Star Wars TLJ contain politically-racially charged content, aside from diversifying its cast, in contrast to that of Bright, which does not?

[Cheesegear]

People will naturally make all sorts of inferences about Orcs simply by seeing some of this imagery.

Yes. That is the point.
Part of the movie, also happens to involve looking past the imagery... But not in the first 15 minutes.

But that sort of thing couldn't possibly be applicable to real life. What a terrible movie.

[Lacuna Caster]

I genuinely cannot see the political significance of Star Wars VIII, and especially not how it resembles a sermon about being PC. Are you referring to its racially diverse cast? If so, how does this movie, which also features a diverse cast, avoid a similar message of PC-ness, especially as you claim there is no special political significance to what Bright does with its racially diverse cast?

Or does Star Wars TLJ contain politically-racially charged content, aside from diversifying its cast, in contrast to that of Bright, which does not?
If I had to guess at what's implied, Bright suggests that the species are, ah, 'separate but equal', while TLJ makes out that the lady and minority characters are noble and brave while the angry white men are wrong and stupid... which hasn't gone entirely without comment (https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/12/18/16791844/star-wars-last-jedi-backlash-controversy).

The latter doesn't bother me especially- lord knows there's been enough white-normative sausage-fest movies over the years that I can allow for some swinging of the pendulum- but... it is there if you dig for it.


I guess what you could say is that Bright is racist for certain values of racism. If you define racism as 'believing you can criticise a racial group despite not belonging to it', or 'believing there are intrinsic biological differences between races', then yes, Bright is absolutely racist. If you define racism as 'believing race X is inferior to race Y', that's not as clear. If you define racism as 'individuals of race X should be judged by their membership of that group', or 'we should all hate race Y', then I think it pretty clearly repudiates that stance. So, your mileage may vary.

[Dr.Samurai]

That this movie is imitating real world events, makes use of real stereotypes and racial dynamics is obvious, and is mentioned both by the many critics and the few outliers like (Variety) that give this movie positive remarks. If every professional critic sees a message, I’m willing to say there is one there.
Sure, you're just not willing to say what it is.

Changing a few characteristics here and there do not remove the obvious sources of inspiration or strip out its meaning. People will naturally make all sorts of inferences about Orcs simply by seeing some of this imagery.
What inferences? And are they right or wrong? I don't understand.

I get if you come into the movie with your own prejudices and feel like those prejudices are either supported or challenged. But... I'm just not seeing what messages the movie is supposedly giving. The only message I can see would be "there are good and bad people of all types". I don't think that's particularly controversial or even worthy of making a movie about. It's like... who doesn't know that? Practically everyone knows that.

Also there is a contradiction embedded in the analysis of this movie as cop movie with no racial signfiicance, and then immediately pivoting to contrast it with the noxious political significance of a Star Wars Episode VIII.

I genuinely cannot see the political significance of Star Wars VIII, and especially not how it resembles a sermon about being PC. Are you referring to its racially diverse cast? If so, how does this movie, which also features a diverse cast, avoid a similar message of PC-ness, especially as you claim there is no special political significance to what Bright does with its racially diverse cast?

Or does Star Wars TLJ contain politically-racially charged content, aside from diversifying its cast, in contrast to that of Bright, which does not?
http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/star-wars/feature/a845869/star-wars-the-last-jedi-feminist-feminism/

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/film/2017/12/last-jedi-first-properly-feminist-star-wars

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/dec/18/star-wars-the-last-jedi-women-bechdel-test

https://hellogiggles.com/reviews-coverage/movies/last-jedi-star-wars-feminist/

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women

https://moneyish.com/ish/why-the-last-jedi-proves-that-star-wars-future-is-female/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2017/12/14/star-wars-last-jedi-feminist-women/943736001/

Some light reading for you.

Look, I don't like TLJ because it's a bad movie. That it made all of the men failures and all of the women heroes is icing on the cake on a movie that already made a lot of inexplicably bad choices.

I'm not seeing an explicit message in Bright. I don't walk away thinking "cops are wrong" or "black people are wrong" or anything of that nature. I walked away from the movie wondering where the elf girl went in the pool, and how the dragon fits into the world, and if they'll expound on the history in a potential sequel.

Help me see what you're seeing. What am I supposed to take away from this movie?

[Mikemical]

Also there is a contradiction embedded in the analysis of this movie as cop movie with no racial signfiicance, and then immediately pivoting to contrast it with the noxious political significance of a Star Wars Episode VIII.

I genuinely cannot see the political significance of Star Wars VIII, and especially not how it resembles a sermon about being PC. Are you referring to its racially diverse cast? If so, how does this movie, which also features a diverse cast, avoid a similar message of PC-ness, especially as you claim there is no special political significance to what Bright does with its racially diverse cast?

Or does Star Wars TLJ contain politically-racially charged content, aside from diversifying its cast, in contrast to that of Bright, which does not?

No, I'm not talking about the "racially diverse" cast of TLJ. I'm talking about how it shoves feminism down everyone's throats. Poe and Finn are emasculated Yes-Men that seem to be there only so Leia/Rose/Diversity Quota(Completely forgot what the asian chick's name was, she was THAT forgettable) can tell them how they know better than they do, when in actuality, all of them make stupid decisions that lead to the destruction of the Rebel Forces by The Last Order/Patriarchy. If you are a man and want to be a hero in these new Star Wars, you bend the knee, nod your head and say "yes ma'am" when spoken to.

Then there's the whole "Delete the old, kill if if you have to" thing they went with, having characters from people's childhoods turned into sacrificial lions without rhyme or reason, just so that they can go "the story is about X now, who cares about those old characters anymore? The real fans know only Kylo and MaRey-Su matter".

Turning Luke into a hermit and then saying "BUT OBI-WAN AND YODA DID THE SAME THING!"(Newsflash, no they didn't) just to kill him off is a slap in the face of anyone who grew up watching the original films. Nobody who's a real Star Wars fan is gonna want to watch one where the only character left alive from the original trilogy is Chewbacca.

I liked my silly space-opera when it was about space-samurai and apolitical. Now it's a slugfest that even Disney is expecting the (http://www.screengeek.net/2017/12/24/disney-expects-solo-a-star-wars-story-to-bomb/) Han Solo movie to bomb (https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/27/rumor-disney-expects-solo-a-star-wars-story-to-bomb/). Also, the force has a gender now and it's female, apparently.

[Reddish Mage]

Yes. That is the point.
Part of the movie, also happens to involve looking past the imagery... But not in the first 15 minutes.


I see you agree with me on my point that the movie has a racial meaning. You also offer an analysis of the meaning of the imagery and plot of the movie (Although surely it goes beyond Orcs and humans can be friends). This is miles beyond what others have said.

Also, I disagree the movie wants us to look past (all of) the stereotypes (they also streotype real life Hispanics, the LAPD and the feds). The well worn message of cross-racial friendship doesn’t require that. The imagery I brought up isn’t confined to the first 15 minutes of the movie either. I don’t think it let’s up.

[Knaight]

Turning Luke into a hermit and then saying "BUT OBI-WAN AND YODA DID THE SAME THING!"(Newsflash, no they didn't) just to kill him off is a slap in the face of anyone who grew up watching the original films. Nobody who's a real Star Wars fan is gonna want to watch one where the only character left alive from the original trilogy is Chewbacca.

Ah, the old attributing personal opinions to the entire fanbase to give them more weight trick. Speaking as someone who grew up watching the original films (albeit not when they came out), I feel no particular need for the characters of the original films to keep making an appearance. If anything they've been cropping up entirely too much for my taste, particularly in terms of largely unnecessary cameos.

As for Luke getting killed being a slap in the face, the second word in the title is literally "Wars". People tend to die in those, and this has been consistent across the Star Wars movies (Obi Wan, Vader, most of Red Squadron), as well as many of the better parts of the E.U (e.g. the Clone Wars series).

[Reddish Mage]

If I had to guess at what's implied, Bright suggests that the species are, ah, 'separate but equal', while TLJ makes out that the lady and minority characters are noble and brave while the angry white men are wrong and stupid... which hasn't gone entirely without comment (https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/12/18/16791844/star-wars-last-jedi-backlash-controversy).

The latter doesn't bother me especially- lord knows there's been enough white-normative sausage-fest movies over the years that I can allow for some swinging of the pendulum- but... it is there if you dig for it.


I really don’t see Finn and Poe as emasculated men, but I’ll read some of these links and get back to you on feminism being an explicit theme.

Also happy everyone seems to accept Bright now actually says something about race.


Sure, you're just not willing to say what it is.

I just didn’t see the point in discussing meaning until someone agreed there was a meaning.

There is a lot of meanings to take from movie. Its not that the movie is especially deep but that it appropriates racially and politically charged language that already has meaning.

At one level the movie absolutely is a simple morality tale about cross-racial friendship and maybe the idea that lots of types of people can be cops. At another, it perpetuates the very stereotypes and categories that lead to racial divisions in the first place. I think it also does a number on the LAPD, and cops in general. The perpetuation of racial categories doesn’t need to be the intended meaning to be there. The fact of sorting the characters (including the hispanics and perhaps the blacks) by race into the right boxes is enough.

If the morality tale is supposed to be a greater message about bridging the gap between races and teaching us that people are to be treated as individuals and not representatives of a cultural group, then the message is flawed.



Help me see what you're seeing. What am I supposed to take away from this movie?

Take away from the movie whatever you like. However, when I say it carries meaning, I mean it legitimately conveys a message to a wide group of people. The movie can say a lot of things to a lot of people. I think it implies stereotypes encompass whole groups of people, which itself is something a lot of people will carry away whether they realize it or not. This makes the movie a flawed messenger, if its message is broad and sincere. Otherwise the message is so limited, to challenging explicit racists on their proud application of bigotry to eliminate the worth of one person, the message is decades late to the party.


No, I'm not talking about the "racially diverse" cast of TLJ. I'm talking about how it shoves feminism down everyone's throats. Poe and Finn are emasculated Yes-Men that seem to be there only so Leia/Rose/Diversity Quota(Completely forgot what the asian chick's name was, she was THAT forgettable)

Aside from slightly more charged language, your statements about feminism was mentioned above.

Question. Did you forget Rey’s name because somehow you want to say she is Diversity Quota, because you gave the Asian actor’s character’s name (its Rose).

[Dr.Samurai]

I really don’t see Finn and Poe as emasculated men, but I’ll read some of these links and get back to you on feminism being an explicit theme.
I don't know about emasculation. But the men in this movie are failures. The women are the heroes and the givers of wisdom. It's a straight line right down the gender line.

At one level the movie absolutely is a simple morality tale about cross-racial friendship and maybe the idea that lots of types of people can be cops. At another, it perpetuates the very stereotypes and categories that lead to racial divisions in the first place.
I guess this is kind of where you lose me. I feel like it would only lead to racial division if you were already predisposed to it in the first place. Nothing that I see in the movie makes me think I should be against any race shown, fictional or real, categorically.

I think it also does a number on the LAPD, and cops in general.
Some of the LAPD come across as awful in this movie. On the other hand, the two main characters and the heroes of the movie are LAPD officers.

This says to me that it's the character of the individual that matters, not what their badge says.

The perpetuation of racial categories doesn’t need to be the intended meaning to be there. The fact of sorting the characters (including the hispanics and perhaps the blacks) by race into the right boxes is enough.
Yeah, I don't know. I'm hispanic. The depiction of a certain latino culture in this movie does not offend me in the slightest. Those people exist. It's not bad to depict them in a movie and it doesn't make them exist any more or any less in the real world for doing so.

I feel like someone would be offended by this depiction if they were somehow concerned that all latino people are actually like that, and so they don't want anyone to see or know that. But it's like... yeah, obviously not all hispanics are like that. Who would think that? I mean, the sheriff is a hispanic and very obviously not part of chicano gang culture. The main character and hero is black. The other main character and hero is an orc.

Take away from the movie whatever you like. However, when I say it carries meaning, I mean it legitimately conveys a message to a wide group of people. The movie can say a lot of things to a lot of people. I think it implies stereotypes encompass whole groups of people, which itself is something a lot of people will carry away whether they realize it or not. This makes the movie a flawed messenger, if its message is broad and sincere. Otherwise the message is so limited, to challenging explicit racists on their proud application of bigotry to eliminate the worth of one person, the message is decades late to the party.
But these stereotypes exist. Police corruption is a thing. We see it in the news daily. Daily. Gang culture is a thing. Discrimination is a thing. I mean, I'm kind of repeating myself now from my original post but I guess I just don't understand what the problem is still.

If people carry away the wrong message, I think that's on them. You can't say "you can't depict cholo gang culture in movies because otherwise people might think all hispanics are mexican gangsters". The movie did not say that. Even if the only hispanics in the movie happen to be in mexican street gangs, the movie isn't saying all hispanics are gang members.

I don't think the movie is really saying anything wrong about any race to be honest.

[Kantaki]

Nobody who's a real Star Wars fan is gonna want to watch one where the only character left alive from the original trilogy is Chewbacca.

I'm not a real Star Wars fan?:smallconfused:
Thank for telling me. Without you I would never have noticed I was mistaken for years.


Also, the force has a gender now and it's female, apparently.

That's new?:smallconfused:
No seriously.
I'm german. To me that's normal.
Using male pronouns would be bad grammar.

[comicshorse]

Ah, the old attributing personal opinions to the entire fanbase to give them more weight trick. Speaking as someone who grew up watching the original films (albeit not when they came out), I feel no particular need for the characters of the original films to keep making an appearance. If anything they've been cropping up entirely too much for my taste, particularly in terms of largely unnecessary cameos.


What he said.
Also I thought Luke's end was glorious. He died nobly and with style, holding an entire army at bay to save lives and became one with the Force as every Jedi eventually will

[Mastikator]

I seem to be noticing and increasing disconnect between the audience and critics.

To be honest it's not at all surprising, Bright is a very niche film that only a subset of people would get and enjoy. Critics have to watch all the movies. They easily get tired of nonsense in films, especially when it's a niche film that they're not a part of.

Imagine someone who has no knowledge of western culture tries to watch Kung Fury, they wouldn't get the jokes, it would just be a very dumb movie. Quite frankly I don't think the critics panning Bright know what they're talking about in this instance, they may as well be reviewing foreign movies in languages they don't understand without subtitles.

[Phobia]

Wow I certainly didn’t come into this topic expecting unmarked Star Wars spoilers for a movie that just came out when we’re supposed to be talking about a totally different movie. -_-

[Cheesegear]

The imagery I brought up isn’t confined to the first 15 minutes of the movie either. I don’t think it let’s up.

Of course it doesn't, because the racial divide - implied, overt, and parallel to IRL - is the secondary conflict of the movie.
The movie takes place in LA gangland. I can find so much worse than 'Bright' in my DVD collection... I've already brought up End of Watch previously in thread.
I've seen this movie before. Except this time, it has magic in it. Can a movie with magic in it, not make social commentary, then, about LA gangland and its cops? It's not like it was advertised as a movie for children.

I find it extremely difficult to be offended by what is essentially the driving force of the movie.
The movie is about that, and the characters' - and ours, IRL - ability, or inability to overcome said conflict.

[Cikomyr]

Hey, fun movie. Lets discuss it!
*Read thread*

*Moves away*

[Reddish Mage]

I don't know about emasculation. But the men in this movie [Star Wars The Last Jedi] are failures. The women are the heroes and the givers of wisdom. It's a straight line right down the gender line.

I don’t think Han Solo was devoid of wisdom, or Luke (as curmudgic and hostile to the Jedi as he is). The wisdom of Leia and Holdo also falls flat but I wasn’t terribly impressed by their roles.

As far as what they did was concerned: I think Finn and Poe are still MVP on the resistance end, even if Poe’s plan (executed by Finn) was a disaster. Everything else going on also seemed like a disaster, including Holdo’s “don’t tell the brash hero of the details of your obvious disaster plan, until he inevitably leads a mutiny” leadership style.

I might be able to see what’s going on as feminism if I had a higher opinion of Leia and Holdo so assuming that they are meant to be 100% in the right and Poe and Finn were completely wrong. I suppose we can see the contours of a feminist theme as strong as the Vanity Fair (https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women) review has it.

The rest of the reviews that mentioned feminism above doesn’t really make it the central focal point of the whole movie, and I think they could have put an angle to it without making it central or explicit. There’s a lot more leeway to blame Leia and Holdo or to see Poe and Finn as individuals other than just stupid men. I also think Rose plays support more than she plays the hero .


I guess this is kind of where you lose me. I feel like it would only lead to racial division if you were already predisposed to it in the first place. Nothing that I see in the movie makes me think I should be against any race shown, fictional or real, categorically.


Yeah, I don't know. I'm hispanic. The depiction of a certain latino culture in this movie does not offend me in the slightest. Those people exist. It's not bad to depict them in a movie and it doesn't make them exist any more or any less in the real world for doing so.


Everyone (ok just the greater majority of adults really, not most children or the odd adults) is predisposed to thinking in racial categories. They know what to do when psychologists give vague racial prompts and will complete stories by consistently invoking on racial stereotypes. If given random photos and asked to describe the personalities and backgrounds of the individuals, racial stereotypes will be one of the strongest determiners of what is said. Whether you think of yourself as against a group from watching the movie or not, you walk alway with a particular category reinforced.


But these stereotypes exist. Police corruption is a thing. We see it in the news daily. Daily. Gang culture is a thing. Discrimination is a thing. I mean, I'm kind of repeating myself now from my original post but I guess I just don't understand what the problem is still.

What does it even mean for a stereotype to exist? I mean this rhetorically. Humans are individuals. Stereotypes are idealized visions of entire groups. That ideal may or may not relate to widespread traits present within the group (likely lacking scientific percision compared to other idealizations used by scientists).

The problem is not whether or not the stereotype “exists” (whatever that might mean), the problem is that the reinforcement of stereotypes without taking the time to problematicize it is not helpful to the overall narrative.

At least, if we agree the narrative has something to do with breaking down barriers and everyone getting along. Having negative expectations of someone based on group characteristics isn’t helpful.



If people carry away the wrong message, I think that's on them. You can't say "you can't depict cholo gang culture in movies because otherwise people might think all hispanics are mexican gangsters". The movie did not say that. Even if the only hispanics in the movie happen to be in mexican street gangs, the movie isn't saying all hispanics are gang members.

I don't think the movie is really saying anything wrong about any race to be honest.

The movie doesn’t have to be that blatant. Also I don’t put things in terms of “right” or “wrong.”

I say the movie isn’t an effective vehicle for what it makes its morale, or otherwise its morale is narrow and outdated.


To be honest it's not at all surprising, Bright is a very niche film that only a subset of people would get and enjoy. Critics have to watch all the movies. They easily get tired of nonsense in films, especially when it's a niche film that they're not a part of.

You think Netflix spent $90 Million on a niche film? It clearly isn’t meant to be niche. You don’t spend that sort of money unless you think you are getting a lot of views.


Of course it doesn't, because the racial divide - implied, overt, and parallel to IRL - is the secondary conflict of the movie.

The movie takes place in LA gangland. I can find so much worse than 'Bright' in my DVD collection... I've already brought up End of Watch previously in thread.
I've seen this movie before. Except this time, it has magic in it. Can a movie with magic in it, not make social commentary, then, about LA gangland and its cops? It's not like it was advertised as a movie for children.

I find it extremely difficult to be offended by what is essentially the driving force of the movie.
The movie is about that, and the characters' - and ours, IRL - ability, or inability to overcome said conflict.

If you see this movie as just using racial imagery sprinkled to shock and appear “real” and gritty like a LA gangland movie that’s, well interesting. I disagree as I think the racism has a larger component.

I don’t hold gangland movies in high esteem artistically. I see movies that make racism as we see onscreen pervasive without any sort of interesting twist to it as lazy. Just taking real life things, dialing up to 11, and visually depicting to give a kick to the senses.

Bright, however, uses racism as the hook, the main course, and the backdrop for its message. There is a purpose to it. Its not unlike “In The Heat of The Night,” in how pervasive race is the film. Only “In The Heat of The Night” is a classic because the character undermines the racism basically by existing and doing as he does. Instead, the Orc-hero takes a back seat to Will Smith’s character in this film, and doesn’t do much to challenge anyone’s perception of him (as wrong as they may be) and doesn’t cleanly separate himself from that image.

[Cheesegear]

Instead, the Orc-hero takes a back seat to Will Smith’s character in this film, and doesn’t do much to challenge anyone’s perception of him (as wrong as they may be) and doesn’t cleanly separate himself from that image.

Except that he proves that he can be an Orc, and a cop, at the same time.
...I wonder what that's meant to represent? :smallconfused:

[Dragonus45]

Movie says racism is bad, gets called racist. Irony.

[Dr.Samurai]

Movie says racism is bad, gets called racist. Irony.
LMAO, well, that's pretty succinct I'd say :smallbiggrin:.

[Jan Mattys]

I saw it and honestly I have a simple yet crucial problem with the movie.
I think I would have preferred if they had gone with the Shadowrun backstory, where fantasy and modern world get mixed up relatively recently.

Instead, they chose to go "full alternate" present, and that creates a lot of problems. Two thousand years and Yakobi is the first orc cop ever? seriously? A lot of the problems the movie comes up with shouldnt be new at all, but it looks like they are.

If an alternate fantasy dimension, or magic, had entered the world (say) in the '80s, it would have been much better, leaving everything else just the same.

[Reddish Mage]

Movie says racism is bad, gets called racist. Irony.

Eh a bit simplistic. Plenty of movies perpetuate stereotypes without problematicizing them and use race politics to shock and entertain. The fact this movie does so while bringing a message that might be interpreted "racism is bad" actually makes the message muddy.


I saw it and honestly I have a simple yet crucial problem with the movie.
I think I would have preferred if they had gone with the Shadowrun backstory, where fantasy and modern world get mixed up relatively recently.

Instead, they chose to go "full alternate" present, and that creates a lot of problems. Two thousand years and Yakobi is the first orc cop ever? seriously? A lot of the problems the movie comes up with shouldnt be new at all, but it looks like they are.

If an alternate fantasy dimension, or magic, had entered the world (say) in the '80s, it would have been much better, leaving everything else just the same.

I think in the $90 million budget they had no room to purchase the movie rights :smalltongue:

Seriously though, Shadowrun is a niche property. Tying things to a Tolkein-esqe event hundreds (ok 2000) years ago makes things more connected to a fantasy property the mainstream can recognize.

Yes, one wonders what happened to orc during the the Early Modern period, Enlightenment, founding of America, Slavery, Civil Rights movement, etc etc. However, the historical black hole (no pun intended) isn't necessarily a "problem" for the movie. It just means we don't know how the alternative history shakes out. Also, 2000 years puts the major event around the time of Jesus (if he existed in this history) squarely in the Roman Empire's period, not the medieval period. That just makes the alternative history weird.

We don't need to know the history for the plot of the movie. Nothing in the movie depends on it. At best it is yet another thing that detracts from the movie's message, the movie makes it hard to draw its relevance to real historical political movements.

[Dragonus45]

Eh a bit simplistic. Plenty of movies perpetuate stereotypes without problematicizing them and use race politics to shock and entertain. The fact this movie does so while bringing a message that might be interpreted "racism is bad" actually makes the message muddy.
Yes the movie does perpetuate some stereotypes about Elves being just glamorous badass ninjas who are good at everything but when you think of the cash they have around they can afford to drop 90 mil for a puff piece that also throws a bone to Orcs and.... wait none of these races are real. How bout dat.

[lord_khaine]

Then there's the whole "Delete the old, kill if if you have to" thing they went with, having characters from people's childhoods turned into sacrificial lions without rhyme or reason, just so that they can go "the story is about X now, who cares about those old characters anymore? The real fans know only Kylo and MaRey-Su matter".

Turning Luke into a hermit and then saying "BUT OBI-WAN AND YODA DID THE SAME THING!"(Newsflash, no they didn't) SPOILER. Nobody who's a real Star Wars fan is gonna want to watch one where SPOILER

Well.. i do agree partly.. i think the main reason i have disliked these movies.. is that i dont think it gives the original cast the ending you could feel they deserved after the original trillogy had ended. There is.. mhm.. could do i put it.. no closure for those who grew up with those movies.. if that makes sense?


I will say that Luke's last stand were kinda awesome. He managed to at last make us see Han had meant something deep for both him and Leia. And it were a really satisfying moment to finally realised that the reason he survived the firepower of an entire army, were because he was astrally projecting from across the galaxy.

[Reddish Mage]

Yes the movie does perpetuate some stereotypes about Elves being just glamorous badass ninjas who are good at everything but when you think of the cash they have around they can afford to drop 90 mil for a puff piece that also throws a bone to Orcs and.... wait none of these races are real. How bout dat.

Had this conversation, past it. We're moving on.

[Mastikator]

You think Netflix spent $90 Million on a niche film? It clearly isn’t meant to be niche. You don’t spend that sort of money unless you think you are getting a lot of views.


Yes. I absolutely think Netflix would give a niche film a 90 million USD budget. Being niche isn't the same as not getting views. Blade Runner 2049 (2017) had 181 million USD production budget. Transformers revenge of the fallen (2009) had a 200 million USD budget.

[Reddish Mage]

Yes. I absolutely think Netflix would give a niche film a 90 million USD budget. Being niche isn't the same as not getting views. Blade Runner 2049 (2017) had 181 million USD production budget. Transformers revenge of the fallen (2009) had a 200 million USD budget.

Blade Runner looks pretty disappointing for that sort of budget (https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Blade-Runner-2049#tab=summary).

I don't understand your idea of niche if you are calling Transformers niche. These are among the highest gross movies. Transformers doesn't just have views, it has a enormous franchise around it, with high brand familiarity the world over. In addition to movies, there are decades of American cartoons and anime, toy-lines etc. Transformers is the very opposite of niche.

You might as well call Star Wars niche or Harry Potter, or American football (its virtually unknown outside America).

A niche movie refers to a movie that speaks to and is meant to speak to a small specialized segment of the population. It absolutely means it will not be getting many views from a mainstream audience.

[Dr.Samurai]

Everyone (ok just the greater majority of adults really, not most children or the odd adults) is predisposed to thinking in racial categories. They know what to do when psychologists give vague racial prompts and will complete stories by consistently invoking on racial stereotypes. If given random photos and asked to describe the personalities and backgrounds of the individuals, racial stereotypes will be one of the strongest determiners of what is said. Whether you think of yourself as against a group from watching the movie or not, you walk alway with a particular category reinforced.
My point is that... I don't think most people think about this as you do or care about this as you do. Like, you're alluding to psychological tests that check for tendencies in racial stereotyping. So, I suspect, and given your original post in this thread, these things matter to you more than the average person and you perceive them differently than the average person. Because most people aren't going to trot out examples of psychological tests when critiquing a movie.

You're seeing something flawed in the film because you're predisposed to see something racist there.



What does it even mean for a stereotype to exist? I mean this rhetorically. Humans are individuals. Stereotypes are idealized visions of entire groups. That ideal may or may not relate to widespread traits present within the group (likely lacking scientific percision compared to other idealizations used by scientists).

The problem is not whether or not the stereotype “exists” (whatever that might mean), the problem is that the reinforcement of stereotypes without taking the time to problematicize it is not helpful to the overall narrative.
What does it mean to "reinforce a stereotype"?

I know humans are individuals. That's why these depictions are not a problem. Anyone that knows humans are individuals shouldn't have a problem with depictions of stereotypes. These were not caricatures.

At least, if we agree the narrative has something to do with breaking down barriers and everyone getting along. Having negative expectations of someone based on group characteristics isn’t helpful.




The movie doesn’t have to be that blatant. Also I don’t put things in terms of “right” or “wrong.”

I say the movie isn’t an effective vehicle for what it makes its morale, or otherwise its morale is narrow and outdated.
We've had a few exchanges now and I still don't really know what your problem with the movie is. You make references to stereotypes and explicit statements, but I don't know what they are and why they make the movie flawed.

[Dragonus45]

Had this conversation, past it. We're moving on.

Why. On the surface level they may well appear to be a stand in for existing races here on Earth but they clearly also match up with none. They borrow a little here and there in ways that make sense for an oppressed group with things like gang culture and a strong family unit expanded to a clan level. But that is where it stops.


My point is that... I don't think most people think about this as you do or care about this as you do. Like, you're alluding to psychological tests that check for tendencies in racial stereotyping. So, I suspect, and given your original post in this thread, these things matter to you more than the average person and you perceive them differently than the average person. Because most people aren't going to trot out examples of psychological tests when critiquing a movie.


It is worth noting that those tests are generally bunk anyways. Not sure why anyone would bother to reference them.

[Reddish Mage]

My point is that... I don't think most people think about this as you do or care about this as you do. Like, you're alluding to psychological tests that check for tendencies in racial stereotyping. So, I suspect, and given your original post in this thread, these things matter to you more than the average person and you perceive them differently than the average person. Because most people aren't going to trot out examples of psychological tests when critiquing a movie.

You're seeing something flawed in the film because you're predisposed to see something racist there.



I thought you were going someplace really profound before you veered into the conclusion. I have an interest is certain things, but viewing movies as racist is not it.

Also, saying the movie is "racist" is a gross simplification of my views. That's not my complaint about the movie, my complaint is it doesn't deliver the moral message it purports to do effectively and undermines itself by failing to challenge the stereotypes it perpetuates.

Plenty of movies throw out stereotypes and even show graphic racial violence for entertainment. I'm not terribly interested in them. This movie brings that sort of graphic into the mainstream as Netflix's first and only big budget movie. The fantasy angle and the morality message are thin fig leafs.

I think this movie helps bring these sorts of portrayals into more mainstream movies more than it does anything else.

Note I haven't said what to do with the movie, I am just describing how I read the movie and how I think the movie affects the greater majority viewers.


What does it mean to "reinforce a stereotype"?

Any display of stereotypical portrayal that do not challenge or undermines the portrayal.


I know humans are individuals. That's why these depictions are not a problem. Anyone that knows humans are individuals shouldn't have a problem with depictions of stereotypes. These were not caricatures.

Studies show that people, by and large, are biased by the preponderance of stereotypes. I don't advocate to their elimination from art and culture, but I think there existence is problematic.


We've had a few exchanges now and I still don't really know what your problem with the movie is. You make references to stereotypes and explicit statements, but I don't know what they are and why they make the movie flawed.

This is because you aren't understanding my perspective as given above. I think the subtext is at odds with the text. I absolute read the preponderance of stereotypes as containing the individuals within those boxes. That is obvious to me because I've read a lot of texts that show people absolutely learn from these portrayals. There's even studies that show people can have their worldview altered by watching enough television.

Stereotypical portrayals have these effects. I suppose you may want me to trot out these studies next, but even if I crack open these books would you even accept it proves my point?

My point is not to advocate for censorship of movies, books, or other media that contains these images. My point is really limited to saying that this movie reinforces the stereotypes just like other portrayals does, they could have challenged the stereotypes but chose not to, and the failure to do undermines any message of harmony the movie purports to give.

[endoperez]

I'd just like to point out that I get the point and the argument Reddish Mage makes. I haven't seen Bright, so I can't comment on how accurate his description is, but just based on the trailer and few small clips it seem to be correct.

He's basically saying that a fairy tale having written with a moral in mind doesn't mean that it actually teaches kids that lesson (maybe it makes the bad thing seem exciting, or is too heavy-handed, or too obscure, or...). That wouldn't make fairy tales bad, or that message or moral a bad one, or even the story a bad story. It just makes its message muddled.

And he's raised several points that, to me as well, seem to muddle Bright's message.

[Dragonus45]

I'd just like to point out that I get the point and the argument Reddish Mage makes. I haven't seen Bright, so I can't comment on how accurate his description is, but just based on the trailer and few small clips it seem to be correct.

He's basically saying that a fairy tale having written with a moral in mind doesn't mean that it actually teaches kids that lesson (maybe it makes the bad thing seem exciting, or is too heavy-handed, or too obscure, or...). That wouldn't make fairy tales bad, or that message or moral a bad one, or even the story a bad story. It just makes its message muddled.

And he's raised several points that, to me as well, seem to muddle Bright's message.

I get what his point is, its just that he is wrong. The movie constantly challenges the "stereotype" associated with Orcs as a hodgepodge of tropes common to groups who have been discriminated against and then forces you to look past them with numerous characters who don't actually fit into the mold your mind initially creates before you even met them. The problem is that it does a less then perfect job when it comes to actually being a particularly good movie which means the whole things is just a bit off. My point is that when people tear an other wise good enough movie to literal shreds over a couple minor missteps in its racism is bad message it just makes people not want to bother with anything to do with race, gender, class, or whatever other issue it is.

[Mastikator]

Blade Runner looks pretty disappointing for that sort of budget (https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Blade-Runner-2049#tab=summary).

I don't understand your idea of niche if you are calling Transformers niche. These are among the highest gross movies. Transformers doesn't just have views, it has a enormous franchise around it, with high brand familiarity the world over. In addition to movies, there are decades of American cartoons and anime, toy-lines etc. Transformers is the very opposite of niche.

You might as well call Star Wars niche or Harry Potter, or American football (its virtually unknown outside America).

A niche movie refers to a movie that speaks to and is meant to speak to a small specialized segment of the population. It absolutely means it will not be getting many views from a mainstream audience.

As a Swede I would definitely call American Football a niche sport :smallwink:

However, the reason I would not put Star Wars and Harry potter into niche categories is because they transcend their genres, Game of Thrones too.

It was a mistake to call Transformers a niche movie, it could be a niche movie if it didn't transcend its genre by appealing to the lowest common denominator.

[Cheesegear]

I'd just like to point out that I get the point and the argument Reddish Mage makes.

I understand it, too. I think his argument is flawed. But...Unfortunately, the argument that this thread wants to have, we can't have on this Forum. So everyone's talking around it, and never quite getting their point across. I just want to point out David Ayer's record;

Wrote Training Day. 'Nuff said.
Wrote Dark Blue. If you've never seen it, you know what it's about just by the title.
Wrote S.W.A.T. A bad movie.
Directed Street Kings (I'll watch anything with Keanu in it)
Wrote, produced and directed End of Watch.
Produced and directed Bright.

Given his writing credits, I know what Ayer's about, and I know what he's trying to say.
I know exactly what this movie's about... Regardless of whether it was done poorly or not. Then, the whole point of the movie, asks me to see past the bad parts, and look at the good parts, at what's underneath the surface. Some members of the audience turned the thing off in the first 15 minutes; Irony. Where Bright fails (IMO), is in one, specific scene;

But, Jakoby doesn't make himself known to Orcs via community policing, or community outreach, or anything that a good Orc cop, should do. Jakoby doesn't endear himself to Orcs by being a non-corrupt, non-racist cop*. Jakoby is, instead, an Orc messiah figure. That's how he earns his community's respect, by being brought back to life...Like that other dude. You know the one. It's only after the Orcs have knelt to him, that he can do his job...

* The scene in which it's revealed that the Orc that Jakoby didn't wrongfully arrest and/or get killed turned out to be the local crime lord's son. Convenient.

Ward's version of the story at the end, is extremely symbolic. Especially after Jakoby spills his guys about what really happened.

[Lacuna Caster]

I understand it, too. I think his argument is flawed. But...Unfortunately, the argument that this thread wants to have, we can't have on this Forum.
I'm pretty sure I've been just saying what I think, and while I agree that the film has problematic elements, I think that possibly stereotyping hispanics and LA cops would be down the list quite a bit.

I do think that professional critics are reflexively mashing the downvote button in a way that it doesn't really deserve, though. If Avatar mostly gets a pass for it's politicised message and formulaic narrative, there's no good reason why Bright can't.

[GloatingSwine]

But, Jakoby doesn't make himself known to Orcs via community policing, or community outreach, or anything that a good Orc cop, should do. Jakoby doesn't endear himself to Orcs by being a non-corrupt, non-racist cop*. Jakoby is, instead, an Orc messiah figure. That's how he earns his community's respect, by being brought back to life...Like that other dude. You know the one. It's only after the Orcs have knelt to him, that he can do his job...

* The scene in which it's revealed that the Orc that Jakoby didn't wrongfully arrest and/or get killed turned out to be the local crime lord's son. Convenient.

Ward's version of the story at the end, is extremely symbolic. Especially after Jakoby spills his guys about what really happened.


There's a little more to it than that. Jakoby couldn't endear himself to the rest of the orcs because as far as they're concerned he's already walking ****, even before he was a cop. Also, he earned their respect first by taking a beating and not ratting, he proved that he actually was brave, which is what their culture respects and what makes you a proper Orc.

Getting resurrected was icing on that cake.


Anyway, s'alright. Will Smith's done worse. Will Smith's done worse with David Ayer. Recently. I think a lot of the criticism about it not doing a lot with the fantasy bits is because there really isn't a lot of worldbuilding. It doesn't really show off how the world got to the way it is. There are orcs and elves, get over it.

That does kinda undermine what the baddie wants because that's kinda founded in the worldbuilding that wasn't there and the baddie was quite indistinct and not really much of a character outside of that.

Reasonable romp though.

[Cheesegear]

I think that possibly stereotyping hispanics and LA cops would be down the list quite a bit.

I think the problem is that David Ayer repeatedly writes stories about gangland LA, and it's very similar to whenever anyone writes a story about gangland Chicago.

The writers and directors are making movies about very, very specific places. Where bad things happen, and 'the stereotypes' actually exist. Else how else do stereotypes form? The problem is that those things don't exist everywhere. And because they don't exist in all places, they must not exist, right?


I do think that professional critics are reflexively mashing the downvote button in a way that it doesn't really deserve, though.

Which is what happens whenever any movie comes out with 'problematic social justice issues' (e.g; Ghostbusters). Reviewers almost have to decide what side of the conflict they want to be on, regardless of what they thought about the movie.


Anyway, s'alright. Will Smith's done worse. Will Smith's done worse with David Ayer.

I wrote Ayer's record a few posts ago. He was definitely the wrong choice for Suicide Squad, and I said so at the time. That's not the kind of script/movie he makes, and it's nowhere close to the style of movie he knows how to make.
I imagine that Ayer could've written this movie without the Orcs and the Elves and it would've been almost exactly the same (i.e; Remarkably similar to Ward's recount), but, the Orcs and the Elves is where Max Landis comes in, I guess.

But, while we were watching it, my partner basically had the same question that Jakoby did;
How did Will Smith shoot all those dudes so quickly?
...Because he's Deadshot, obviously. :smalltongue:

[rooster707]

So, saw this last night. I thought it was pretty good. Not amazing, but enough to make me want a Shadowrun movie a sequel.

[JeenLeen]

Mostly non-political aspects

It seemed to me that the Inferni's combat powers were likely due to them being Inferni, not elves. We never see the Feds in action, so we don't know how non-evil elves act, but I'm guessing it's some sort of investiture, not innate power. The movie never states either way, though. Just... it seems crazy that elves are insanely-good combatants, though that would lend to them being the world-leaders.

All in all, I mostly disliked that some of the world-building seemed a tad flat. We get some insight (with some inconsistencies) about orcs and elves. But dwarves also exist, it seems, ( and maybe lizardmen), and those never come up besides a side reference. I think some details on what the Dark Lord was and about orc prophecy would've helped frame things better.

Also, was Ward divorced? He seemed in a happy marriage, but then it skips to after he gets shot and he seems to be in a bad spot in his relationship. And he joked about divorce and remarriage, plus Jakoby's remark about not enough love. Just some of the "told, not shown, and then told in little detail" that seems throughout the movie.

Lastly, from how the cops reacted, I guess wands can be used by non-Brights as long as you don't touch it, but... even Brights have trouble using it well. That seemed inconsistent. I'm sure the gang leader did'nt know the magic words for 'heal me'.

I did enjoy it, though.

[Fishybugs]

Yeah, there's a lot of "told, not explained". Enough so that I wonder how much of this movie is left sitting on the cutting room floor. It would be interesting to see how much was cut out. Conversely, a lot of things are brought up as side conversations, making me wonder if they were purposefully teasing them so that people would want to see more, demand to see more.

It worked for me. Was there racism? Yes, but not exaggerated too much from what I can tell. For being the only move in its genre that I've seen (apparently there have been other urban fantasy movies??) I thought it not done too poorly. Again, I knew David Ayer was involved as I went into it, so I had expected to see certain things.

I would like to see another one that delves more into the rich history that is hinted at multiple times.

[JeenLeen]

Somebody commented how Jakoby seemed a fish out of water regarding social scenes. I liked that about him, but as thinking about it more, it doesn't make sense (as commented earlier). It would work great for showing a slightly different mentality orcs could have than humans -- based more on subtle social cues and smells to detect emotions, which in turn makes orcs look like they don't express emotion and makes humans look (to orcs) like they wear their emotions on their face just crazy blatantly. But most orcs we see seem to be fairly 'normal', if gangstery, like we'd expect humans to be.

Kinda a shame. I'd like it if the gangster orcs also showed a different mentality than humans, instead of just seeming like extra-tough, different-skinned humans.

---

On the race note, was Ward's wife white? In the opening scenes, I thought she was white, and I thought that was a cool way of showing that although racism regarding species (orc, elf, human) was a big deal, in light of the actual specieism actual racism regarding human skin tones wasn't a thing. Likewise the camaraderie between Ward and his white fellow cops. (Sure, they plan to kill him later, but they all seem friendly except for his superior--which seems to show that black and white humans don't consider being black and white a significant difference.)

From later scenes, I couldn't tell, but the lighting was different.
Nothing was explicitly stated either way as if intra-species racism was a thing in the movie, but I thought it an interesting, subtle way to do worldbuilding by showing a lack of racism within a given species. (Even if the wife character was the same race as Ward, the camaraderie between cops could also be subtle hint to this.)

[Psyren]

I liked it. Yeah it beat you around the head with the race analogies, and yeah the plot and characters were as cliché as you could imagine (jaded veteran cop close to retirement and idealistic rookie, Will when did you become Agent Kay anyway? Now I feel old) - but the setting, my goodness the setting. I view it like Zootopia, I want to see more of this world and city outside the lens of its law enforcement. Show me the schools and universities, show me the sports teams, show me the military. And I could definitely use more of that Dark Lord stuff, and the magic system.



All in all, I mostly disliked that some of the world-building seemed a tad flat. We get some insight (with some inconsistencies) about orcs and elves. But dwarves also exist, it seems, ( and maybe lizardmen), and those never come up besides a side reference. I think some details on what the Dark Lord was and about orc prophecy would've helped frame things better.

Centaurs too, according to one traffic sign, and there was definitely a dragon flapping lazily overhead in one establishing shot.

[Benthesquid]

Show me the schools and universities, show me the sports teams, show me the military. And I could definitely use more of that Dark Lord stuff, and the magic system.

Yes, this. I'd love an anthology piece, maybe following a New Yorker reporter or something doing profiles on different neighborhoods and notable individuals in this world.

[ben-zayb]

I definitely like the world building being done in this film. Sort of a what-if for modern earth being Middle Earth in the future, but really not quite, events-wise. Interesting choice of time frame of the Dark Lord era transpiring 2000 years ago. No idea whether we had the real ancient civilizations existing back then.

Of course, this being a Will Smith film under David Ayer, obligatory reference:
Ward: "So that's it, huh. We're some kind of... Bright?
And he is! What?! Are you kidding me?

[Misereor]

That one was good, but personally I preferred the one about uncovering conspiracies with an orc sniper, a cybered-up human, a human decker, and a punk rock shaman. And I think there was a dog too?

I like Shadowrun too, but these Scooby Doo remakes are getting ridiculous.

[Psyren]

Of course, this being a Will Smith film under David Ayer, obligatory reference:
Ward: "So that's it, huh. We're some kind of... Bright?


Roll credits. *ding!*


I like Shadowrun too, but these Scooby Doo remakes are getting ridiculous.

And now I'm imagining how awesome Shadowrun Scooby Doo would be, so thanks for that :smalltongue:

[comicshorse]

And now I'm imagining how awesome Shadowrun Scooby Doo would be, so thanks for that :smalltongue:

Wish and it will be so

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scooby_Apocalypse

(Close enough )

[Dr.Samurai]

Netflix has confirmed a sequel! Woohoo! :smallbiggrin::smallcool:

[Dragonus45]

Nice, the movie itself didn't exactly cry out for one but there is certainly a lot to follow up on.

[Cheesegear]

I like how in their sequel announcement they directly referenced Alien Nation and Shadowrun.
Did Max Landis/David Ayer/Netflix know what they were doing the whole time?
Or was it more a case of reviews came out, and they were like "Oh [poop], it is like those things."

[Misereor]

I like how in their sequel announcement they directly referenced Alien Nation and Shadowrun.
Did Max Landis/David Ayer/Netflix know what they were doing the whole time?
Or was it more a case of reviews came out, and they were like "Oh [poop], it is like those things."

Hope it's the first. Alien Nation was top dollar, and even the TV series was entertaining.

<edit>Max Landis? Holy crap, he's the son of John Landis, best director ever. Yipiie! Good times ahead if he's got even a tenth of dad's talent!</edit>

[JadedDM]

I read Landis will not be involved in the sequel, actually.

[JoshL]

With the Alien Nation reference, I realize now how much I want Rockne O'Bannon to take over writing this. Or at the very least, Netflix to give him a series with the freedom he had on Farscape.

[Lemmy]

Just watched the movie. I liked it. Not amazing, but still fun, if predictable. I hope the sequel is more coherent, though. Now that the setting is somewhat established, they should have more time to focus on an actual plot.

I wish we could've seen more of the other races... The only non-human/elf/orc I remember seeing was the centaur cop and the lady who blinks sideways to Will Smith.

[Cheesegear]

<edit>Max Landis? Holy crap, he's the son of John Landis, best director ever. Yipiie! Good times ahead if he's got even a tenth of dad's talent!</edit>

Max is a writer, not a director. He's a bit of a douche. But the way he tells it, his ideas are just too crazy for Hollywood.
That said, is writing Dirk Gently's. So at least he's got that.
So, yeah. He's found his place at Netflix...Where they'll take anything.

[Blackhawk748]

Also, anyone else see the dragon the size of a 747 flying atop the skyline? I wonder what regulations are in place regarding huge, fire-breathing flying reptiles.

Whatever rules they want :smalltongue:


With the Alien Nation reference, I realize now how much I want Rockne O'Bannon to take over writing this. Or at the very least, Netflix to give him a series with the freedom he had on Farscape.

Oooh, id love to see him let loose, Farscape was a fun ride.

[Dienekes]

Hope it's the first. Alien Nation was top dollar, and even the TV series was entertaining.

<edit>Max Landis? Holy crap, he's the son of John Landis, best director ever. Yipiie! Good times ahead if he's got even a tenth of dad's talent!</edit>

Yeah. So... Max is a writer. He wrote Chronicle which was great, and Dirk Gently. And a few actually very good comics. The man seems to really get Superman.

Which is ironic since a lot has been coming out recently that he may be on the Hollywood sexual predator list. Nothing confirmed, and I hope it isn’t true. But after a few allegations Netflix dropped him. So... yeah.

[Reddish Mage]

I like how in their sequel announcement they directly referenced Alien Nation and Shadowrun.
Did Max Landis/David Ayer/Netflix know what they were doing the whole time?

Come on. Orcs, Elves and Dragons in contemporary LA, they couldn't possibly run this through the production process without hearing about Alien Nation and Shadowrun. More likely, that's exactly where Max Landis got the idea from.


Yeah. So... Max is a writer. He wrote Chronicle which was great, and Dirk Gently. And a few actually very good comics. The man seems to really get Superman.

Which is ironic since a lot has been coming out recently that he may be on the Hollywood sexual predator list. Nothing confirmed, and I hope it isn’t true. But after a few allegations Netflix dropped him. So... yeah.

I question whether the allegations had anything to do with it. I read David Ayer heavily revised the script and put his own stamp on it. Max Landis has generally complained about his vision getting trampled on and how he wants to sell shows in a "already packages" form so they can't be tampered with so much.

Writers generally have like no power in Hollywood. They serve up full-written pieces to be hacked apart and redone by committee, many members of which will not take a clue about what the original vision is or how their changes basically cut against the core of whatever that was.

He got paid over 3 million for the script, which is more than any writer has received for a script for a long, long time. If David Ayer is just going to do whatever anyway, they probably don't need want a script writer who is absurdly expensive and has a chip on his shoulder about the importance of his creative vision.

[Cheesegear]

He got paid over 3 million for the script, which is more than any writer has received for a script for a long, long time. If David Ayer is just going to do whatever anyway, they probably don't need want a script writer who is absurdly expensive and has a chip on his shoulder about the importance of his creative vision.

Like I said, I feel like Bright was the kind of movie that Ayer could've made in his sleep. It's just that this time, it had Orcs and Elves in it, too.
Now that the first movie's out, and Ayer has figured out what Orcs and Elves are supposed to do...I'm pretty sure he could write the script himself. Don't need Landis no more. And since Ayer has done Suicide Squad, he knows exactly how to 'play ball' with a studio, even if the studio's vision is terrible, he'll do it anyway.

[Kitten Champion]

Someone paid three million dollars for that script? A bundle of gritty police action television/movie and hack fantasy cliches?

What am I doing with my life?

[Misereor]

Yeah. So... Max is a writer. He wrote Chronicle which was great, and Dirk Gently. And a few actually very good comics. The man seems to really get Superman.

Which is ironic since a lot has been coming out recently that he may be on the Hollywood sexual predator list. Nothing confirmed, and I hope it isn’t true. But after a few allegations Netflix dropped him. So... yeah.

*Uck* Depressing...

[Reddish Mage]

Like I said, I feel like Bright was the kind of movie that Ayer could've made in his sleep. It's just that this time, it had Orcs and Elves in it, too.
Now that the first movie's out, and Ayer has figured out what Orcs and Elves are supposed to do...I'm pretty sure he could write the script himself. Don't need Landis no more. And since Ayer has done Suicide Squad, he knows exactly how to 'play ball' with a studio, even if the studio's vision is terrible, he'll do it anyway.

What you describe about Ayer’s old movies makes me feel he basically made so many changes he made another of his own movies.

Landis really didn’t make much of a mark on this movie, although he gets a lot of the criticism directed at him because writers control nothing but critics don’t seem to know that.


Someone paid three million dollars for that script? A bundle of gritty police action television/movie and hack fantasy cliches?

What am I doing with my life?

First, be the son of a very powerful Hollywood writer. Next, write the scripts to a few moderately successful Hollywood blockbusters. Third, tell Netflix “my script deserves to be a real movie” and hold out for more money. Fourth after you get the money watch as the director tosses all your ideas and makes his own movie anyway. Fifth, throw me a few hundred thousand if that all goes your way.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

This movie rocked!

Best thing I've seen since Rogue One. There may be a few logic holes, I'll enjoy rewatching and seeing if the stick.

The action rocks.

The political message, its there. Its here. A good number of my neighbors and co-workers are racist pigs, some for "both" of "our" sides. I will even boycott our welfare loving baseball team which is far from the worst I admit but I was ok with Bright's political tone.

The action kicked butt, it had me. I like how humans maintain our dominance in sci fi, I guess through breeding quantity lol.

Did I say this was one of the best action flicks since T2 yet?

Spoiler,

For half the movie I thought Teeka was a little special. I guess shell shocked is what she was?

[Psyren]

The action kicked butt, it had me. I like how humans maintain our dominance in sci fi, I guess through breeding quantity lol.


We dominate via the most powerful racial trait of all - ease of casting / makeup :smallbiggrin:

[Cheesegear]

Landis really didn’t make much of a mark on this movie, although he gets a lot of the criticism directed at him because writers control nothing but critics don’t seem to know that...

The issue is that Landis is a douche, and kind of makes a thing out of his own self-importance. Publicly.
Bright also uses Landis' writing credit as a selling point; You should see this movie, 'cause Landis wrote it.

If he - and the studio - try to give him credit, especially in the specific parts of the movie including characters, motivations and the plot...Then that's what he gets. He gets credit for writing the movie, because 'They' are making a 'Thing' out of it. If Landis wants to take credit, he also gets blame.

[GloatingSwine]

If critics had liked it, you can bet your ass Landis would be reminding you who wrote it.

[Lord Joeltion]

Just watched it yesterday. I really liked it. I felt like watching those old cop movies, only with a much better script than those of silly 80's B movies (yeah, I have a soft spot for crappy action movies). I burst in laugh during the hospital/detention centre scene, what a lovely Orc. I can be his friend :smalltongue:

I think that, despite the obvious (and probably necessary) "statements" of the movie, the racial tones/political messages were really underplayed; in the sense that I didn't feel any heavy message delivered specifically. I think it had more to do with showing certain social issues* (applicable to any society, not just 'Murica or developed countries) than specifically the racial/political thing.

Of course, I come from a very special country where skin tone isn't the primary form of prejudice anyway. So maybe if I wasn't surprised at all to see Will Smith in an "interracial" relationship; that simply means I'm impervious to that kind of subtext. On the average, the movie was fun watch. Story was engaging, altho I admit I have lots of questions about the world (why aren't the elves taking over the world like, yesterday?). Maybe the sequel gives more answers? I can hope.

*Being a pariah of your own people. Hiding the truth because nobody would understand your position/reasoning. Dealing with a partner you don't really like (except people don't seem to understand your reasons aren't the same as theirs). And doing the right thing in a world that is really crappy and corrupted.

[Dragonus45]

If critics had liked it, you can bet your ass Landis would be reminding you who wrote it.

Yea, I do actually enjoy his work more often then not but he can be a bit fair weather.

[Friv]

Overall, Bright was a so-so movie with a ton of really interesting ideas that it didn't spend much time on. I would have much preferred it without the "Dark Lord resurrection cult" angle - just the chaos that happens when a single magic wand gets loose on the street would have been a great story. (Also I wish Jakoby had been the Bright...)


Lastly, from how the cops reacted, I guess wands can be used by non-Brights as long as you don't touch it, but... even Brights have trouble using it well. That seemed inconsistent. I'm sure the gang leader did'nt know the magic words for 'heal me'.

Ward and Jakoby didn't assume that the elf lady was a Bright after she blew up their police car, so this seems accurate. It's just only Brights that can use a wand safely, maybe.


Centaurs too, according to one traffic sign, and there was definitely a dragon flapping lazily overhead in one establishing shot.

There was also a centaur cop present at the orc beatdown that Ward drove Jackoby past.

[Pronounceable]

I was going to post this movie is stupid and obnoxiously murrican but this thread changed my mind. The movie is ok, it's this thread that's like it and I lament the time I spent reading half of it.

[Dienekes]

I was going to post this movie is stupid and obnoxiously murrican but this thread changed my mind. The movie is ok, it's this thread that's like it and I lament the time I spent reading half of it.

You’re the one that kept reading. There’s a wonderful thing about the internet, where you can go do just about anything else.

[Olinser]

You’re the one that kept reading. There’s a wonderful thing about the internet, where you can go do just about anything else.

Nah if he tried to do that the EVIL MURRICAN THOUGHT POLICE would show up to his house, beat him up, tie him to a chair, staple his eyes open, and scroll through the thread while forcing him to read it out loud.

[dps]

I suspect the disconnect here is largely that the critics watch more movies than your average person. The cliched and repetitive elements of Bright are more evident.

Haven't seen it, but from the trailers, it seems like it's a rehash of Alien Nation, except fantasy instead of SF.

[Dragonus45]

Haven't seen it, but from the trailers, it seems like it's a rehash of Alien Nation, except fantasy instead of SF.

Plot wise they are pretty divergent. It's more of a Training Day with Orcs kind of adaptation.

[Demica Fatali]

I think I just went into this one with super high expectations so I had to lower them. It wasn't a bad movie, both male leads were solid and enjoyable with a decent amount of chemistry. My issue was the typical "she's the super magical girl who speaks like freakin' Leelo because thats all movies know of powerful girls anymore" >>. Could just be my bias on that one, I think the movie could have gotten by solidly without her for the background drop.

But I LOVED the worldsetting and it was VERY Shadowrun!

[Lord of the Helms]

(Also I wish Jakoby had been the Bright...)


I thought the same thing, but then again that might've made the heroic Ork just a tad too special.

Overall, solid film. Not fantastic, but entertained me from beginning to end. Don't especially understand the bad reviews, and certainly not the one that apparently claimed it was the worst movie of the year.

Even the predictable part at the end was reasonably well done. The moment Ward decides to grab the wand, it's blatantly obvious he'll survive and turn out to be a Bright, but it was a situation where it was a legitimately reasonable choice for him to grab it even if he thought he'd die from it.

My biggest gripe was the fairy in the beginning because it was just too human-looking for a "pest" that people casually swat to death. Looked really gruesome. Liked the world-building and some of the mix-and-mash cultures (Orks being in a similar position to African Americans, except instead of hip-hop, their music is apparently thrash metal, and they totally chill out to it; Also they are apparently terrible at Basketball, but great at American football). Loved the opening montage giving a glimpse of the world. And the film had a lot of nice little details (the centaur, the dragon, a sign that apparently points to lizardfolk). Leaves a bunch of questions that I would hope will be addressed in the sequel. What was it with Tikka's black veins and need for healing? Are all elves awesome super-ninjas, or was that more because the ones in question were in league with the Dark Lord? Also, I'm intrigued who the "nine races" are. We've got Humans, Orks, Elves and Centaurs shown outright and Lizardfolk hinted at, so that leaves four more. Dwarves? Trolls? Giants? Dragons obviously exist, but are they one of the nine?


Story was engaging, although I admit I have lots of questions about the world (why aren't the elves taking over the world like, yesterday?).


On that front, at least, the movie seemed to imply that the elves already pretty much run the world. Granted, the guy who says it seems a bit kooky, but considering that the high-class district is the elven one and that the highest authority figure seen in the film is an elf, there seems to be some truth to it.

[Lord Joeltion]

On that front, at least, the movie seemed to imply that the elves already pretty much run the world. Granted, the guy who says it seems a bit kooky, but considering that the high-class district is the elven one and that the highest authority figure seen in the film is an elf, there seems to be some truth to it.

My question was more in the lines of "WE ARE YOUR OVERLORDS!" more than "We are your snotty hipsters who run TV shows".

[Friv]

My question was more in the lines of "WE ARE YOUR OVERLORDS!" more than "We are your snotty hipsters who run TV shows".

Being overlords probably requires more direct interaction than the elves are happy with. Much easier to just have enclaves that everyone else admires from afar, and let the other races deal with oppressing each other on your behalf.

[tlhopbow]

Honestly, I feel like the acting was really bad and it was way too heavy handed with the stereotypes. There was a lot I enjoyed and it was a very fun concept, but left something to be desired with the execution

[Lord of the Helms]

Being overlords probably requires more direct interaction than the elves are happy with. Much easier to just have enclaves that everyone else admires from afar, and let the other races deal with oppressing each other on your behalf.

In fact, one of the graffiti in the beginning captures this interpretation pretty well ("they hold you up to keep us down", with an elf holding up a human stomping on an orc).

[JeenLeen]

[SPOILER=Spoiler]
Also, I'm intrigued who the "nine races" are. We've got Humans, Orks, Elves and Centaurs shown outright and Lizardfolk hinted at, so that leaves four more. Dwarves? Trolls? Giants? Dragons obviously exist, but are they one of the nine?

On that front, at least, the movie seemed to imply that the elves already pretty much run the world. Granted, the guy who says it seems a bit kooky, but considering that the high-class district is the elven one and that the highest authority figure seen in the film is an elf, there seems to be some truth to it.

That orc 'mafia don' said that his family hung out with dwarves in Florida, so those are referred to.
I thought it was "nine armies", not "nine races". I don't completely trust my memory, though, and it makes sense if each of the armies was a major race.

Since the majority of Brights are elves, and I think it was implied elves also own some magic wands (openly? legally?), it makes sense they would be able to rule. It seemed like elves segregated themselves by choice to avoid their inferiors.
I am also very curious if all elves are super-ninja or if just Inferni are. If one elf can take out dozens of humans, that gives more reason they could have become the leaders.

[The Patterner]

I am also very curious if all elves are super-ninja or if just Inferni are. If one elf can take out dozens of humans, that gives more reason they could have become the leaders.

I just assumed that the ones we saw were special elite inferni who acted as bodyguards/enforcers to the leader.

Think about it this way, if they had been humans we would all have assumed that they were good fighters due to training/experience, no reason to just assume otherwise here.

Altough I immagine elves have better reflexes and are more agile than humans. Just like orcs are stronger and tougher than humans.

[Friv]

Think about it this way, if they had been humans we would all have assumed that they were good fighters due to training/experience, no reason to just assume otherwise here.

Training and experience don't let you shrug off bullets or survive being rammed at high speed by a police car into a wall, though. It takes an absolutely absurd amount of physical punishment to put any of the Inferni down, compared to the more grounded generic "action hero" toughness of Ward and Jakoby.

[JeenLeen]

Think about it this way, if they had been humans we would all have assumed that they were good fighters due to training/experience, no reason to just assume otherwise here.

Altough I immagine elves have better reflexes and are more agile than humans. Just like orcs are stronger and tougher than humans.

I'm seconding Friv.
If they were just well-trained fighters, I'd assume just well-trained. But they are basically dodging-bullets fast and soaking attacks that should destroy walls. Thus, either Infernal investment or elves are so much better than humans and orcs that a well-trained elf is just that good. (The Inferni are at least tougher than orcs. I forget if they display super-strength or not.)

If they were human, I'd be certain it was supernatural influence.

I really wish we had been given at least one fight scene where the federal elf agent go into a fight, to see if his skill is super-ninja or not.

[Clertar]

****ing loved it. Without being great cinema, this was easily the best fantasy movie since the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

[Lord of the Helms]

That orc 'mafia don' said that his family hung out with dwarves in Florida, so those are referred to.
I thought it was "nine armies", not "nine races". I don't completely trust my memory, though, and it makes sense if each of the armies was a major race.



Right, forgot about the mention of Dwarves! So that's five to six races down. And you're right, it was "nine armies", so doesn't strictly have to be nine races, guess I kind of automatically assumed that. Makes me wonder if Orcs even were one of the nine armies - we know the leader was an Orc, but apparently most Orcs sided with the Dark Lord, so it's not really clear if there even were enough Orcs opposing him to be counted as an army.


Training and experience don't let you shrug off bullets or survive being rammed at high speed by a police car into a wall, though. It takes an absolutely absurd amount of physical punishment to put any of the Inferni down, compared to the more grounded generic "action hero" toughness of Ward and Jakoby.

Wait, I don't remember the police car ramming thing. I remember Jacoby being car fu'd into the shelves at the gas station, but not the other way around. The only one of them to shrug off a clearly fatal wound is the leader, and the way it looked, that was obviously magical regeneration of some kind. For comparison, the bald male comes back from being shoved into a wall with a Foosball table and impaled with a Foosball bar by Jacoby, which is tough but not necessarily superhuman, and stays very much down after getting shot. And I don't remember the other female Inferni taking any significant damage before she got exploded to death.

[SpiderSilkWings]

I thought it was entertaining and interesting, but I also felt like they wanted to make a lot of nods to current hot button topics without actually having much to say about them, and it kind of left me wondering through the whole film what sort of message it actually wanted to convey.

Still kind of really curious about the setting. All of this stuff about a dark lord and nine armies and horrifically powerful magic users, but the Alamo still happened and I get the impression modern day political geography is at least mostly in tact.

[Liquor Box]

[SPOILER=Spoiler]
Liked the world-building and some of the mix-and-mash cultures (Orks being in a similar position to African Americans, except instead of hip-hop, their music is apparently thrash metal, and they totally chill out to it; Also they are apparently terrible at Basketball, but great at American football).

If Orc's position in society was based on that of African American's then it vastly exaggerated that position. Jacoby was the first Orcish policemen, but there are lots of black policemen (in Los Angeles blacks are over-represented in the police force).

[Clertar]

If Orc's position in society was based on that of African American's then it vastly exaggerated that position. Jacoby was the first Orcish policemen, but there are lots of black policemen (in Los Angeles blacks are over-represented in the police force).

That's part of the role of fantasy and science-fiction. Like you say, depicting the first woman to attend university, or the actual first LAPD black cop, in the present day, or even in a way that's not how it historically took place. So instead you create a fantasy minority and even turn the dial up a little, like District 9 did with aliens.

[ben-zayb]

From a perspective of someone outside the US, the Orks really felt more gangster Nazi and less trash metal African American, and even that was reaching. It just was different enough from RL cultures and history that it can't really be reasonably mapped or alluded to an existing one.

EDIT: It's like saying Halflings are just Gnomes but X, Kenders are just Halflings but Y, or vice versa. There are clear similarities, yes, but they are their own thing.

[Liquor Box]

That's part of the role of fantasy and science-fiction. Like you say, depicting the first woman to attend university, or the actual first LAPD black cop, in the present day, or even in a way that's not how it historically took place. So instead you create a fantasy minority and even turn the dial up a little, like District 9 did with aliens.

Sure, I get that the orcs are based on an oppressed group, I just took them to be based on a theoretical oppressed group rather than a particular real world ethnicity in USA. I don't think it fits very well them being based on blacks, in part because there are blacks in the movie who appear to occupy the stereotypical black niche (like the main character's neighbours.


From a perspective of someone outside the US, the Orks really felt more gangster Nazi and less trash metal African American, and even that was reaching. It just was different enough from RL cultures and history that it can't really be reasonably mapped or alluded to an existing one

Yes, I agree. Although I am also not from USA, so maybe our shared perspective is different from that of American audiences.

[Lord of the Helms]

From a perspective of someone outside the US, the Orks really felt more gangster Nazi and less trash metal African American, and even that was reaching. It just was different enough from RL cultures and history that it can't really be reasonably mapped or alluded to an existing one.


Wait what? I totally get the Gangster part (the way they dress, the disdain for police etc), but Nazi? Not only were the orcs an oppressed minority that is held accountable for what their ancestors did two thousand years ago (which sounds more like an an analogue to pre-Nazi antisemitism now that I think about it) and apparently subject to mass murder in the past if that corrupt cop saying that his ancestors "killed them by the thousands in Russia" is anything to go by, but the Orc crime boss is one of the few, if not the only person in the entire movie shown to be actively trying to bring the different races together. He's probably less racist than the hero, who tries to raise his daughter into not being a racist even while still clearly holding ill-informed prejudice against his partner (to wit, if he'd cared to find out, he'd have known that Jacoby was unblooded and clanless and thus conflict between clan law and actual law was never an issue for him).

[Dr.Samurai]

...but the Orc crime boss is one of the few, if not the only person in the entire movie shown to be actively trying to bring the different races together. He's probably less racist than the hero, who tries to raise his daughter into not being a racist even while still clearly holding ill-informed prejudice against his partner (to wit, if he'd cared to find out, he'd have known that Jacoby was unblooded and clanless and thus conflict between clan law and actual law was never an issue for him).
The orc chief is less racist than Ward? Eh, no. Ward is not racist. Jacoby's story about how the orc that shot Ward got away was fishy, and no one believed it. And lo and behold, it ends up Jacoby was lying the whole time. That doesn't make Ward a racist. Further, Jacoby being his partner was causing all sorts of problems for Ward. Ward doesn't care about Jacoby's clan status because Ward doesn't care to have Jacoby as a partner. This isn't racism or ill-informed prejudice.

The orc chief on the other hand is totally a racist. You know, the guy judging Jacoby simply because he's an orc that does whatever he wants, instead of what other orcs think he should be doing? The one that calls him "*****", "roundtooth", "false orc". The one that orders his son to murder a police officer in cold blood to prove his allegiance to the race. That's a racist.

[The Patterner]

Training and experience don't let you shrug off bullets or survive being rammed at high speed by a police car into a wall, though. It takes an absolutely absurd amount of physical punishment to put any of the Inferni down, compared to the more grounded generic "action hero" toughness of Ward and Jakoby.




I'm seconding Friv.
If they were just well-trained fighters, I'd assume just well-trained. But they are basically dodging-bullets fast and soaking attacks that should destroy walls. Thus, either Infernal investment or elves are so much better than humans and orcs that a well-trained elf is just that good. (The Inferni are at least tougher than orcs. I forget if they display super-strength or not.)

If they were human, I'd be certain it was supernatural influence.

I really wish we had been given at least one fight scene where the federal elf agent go into a fight, to see if his skill is super-ninja or not.


I might have to watch it again, but my impression where that they were moving fast and dodging left and right wich made it difficult to get a good aim at them. Not that they were matrix style dodging, big differance there.

And also, they could take a beating, but unless I misremember it, it was the orc that was hit by a car and shrugged it off, not the other way around :smallconfused:

[Friv]

I might have to watch it again, but my impression where that they were moving fast and dodging left and right wich made it difficult to get a good aim at them. Not that they were matrix style dodging, big differance there.

And also, they could take a beating, but unless I misremember it, it was the orc that was hit by a car and shrugged it off, not the other way around :smallconfused:

I'm about 95% sure that during the battle at the gas station, Jakoby gets into the sheriff's car and rams it at high speed through a way, hitting an Inferni and pinning him against the far wall. The Inferni is trapped for a bit but gets free with no apparent damage done.

[Dr.Samurai]

It's the opposite. The Inferni ram a car through the gas station. Jacoby pushes the elf girl out of the way and gets hit by the car and pinned against the back wall. He gets out with no damage.

[Clertar]

When the deputy gets shot outside the gas station, they run in and call for backup. Then the baddies ram the car into the gas station, driven by the Inferni man elf.

[Ramza00]

Lindsay Ellis on Bright


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLOxQxMnEz8

[Cikomyr]

Lindsay Ellis on Bright


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLOxQxMnEz8

A fantastic essay from Lindsay, as always.

I may not 100% agree with all her points, but she makes them in a thoughtful and well articulated manner; so much that i see her side of things. I love her work.

[DuelingBlue]

Just saw this last night. I really wanted to like it, but it never quite drew me in.

I think I would've enjoyed it more if they'd cut the first forty minutes down to twenty and were a little bit less heavy handed with the racial theme.

I did enjoy the latter half of the movie, but I'm still not sure the first half was worth it.

In summary: glad I watched it, not going to watch it again.