Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

[Kornaki]

Also, she empowered it which I'm pretty sure is what she really was referring to.

[Chronos]

Haley's personal rival was a human with class levels. For a human with class levels, level, ECL, and CR are all the same thing, so there was no need to go into details. And besides, trying to say it more precisely would be awkward to phrase: Instead of "she's at least as high a level as me", it'd have to be something like "Her CR must be at least as high as my level" in order to be strictly correct. Much easier to just say "level", with the understanding that "level" for a monster character means "CR", in this context.

[Rogar Demonblud]

CR is not level equivalent. CR says what kind of challenge you are for the standard four man band adventuring party.

[b_jonas]

#1150 is out. Hilgya uses the spell Raise Dead to successfully raise Durkon again. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1150.html) This means that Durkon indeed loses two levels from resurrection, not just one.

[EmperorSarda]

See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22737279&postcount=51).

The combination of level and stat bonuses that explains what we see while keeping both level and stat as low as possible is Cleric 15, Wisdom 24. Though that does require Hilgya putting a 7th-level spell into an 8th-level slot (I put resurrection there, but any of her 7th-level spells would have done just as well). Casting resurrection again would only require that she have Wisdom 26, as she could prepare that spell in her 8th-level slot.

So Hilgya's casting of Raise Dead keeps her at Cleric level 15 and Wisdom 24.

Also, Durkon is now down 2 levels. So... he's 13th level now?

Of course, no clue how his spells are; whether or not he has spells replenished because Durkula was a different entity or what.

We should edit Durkon's entry at least to say he's no longer deceased.

[zimmerwald1915]

So Hilgya's casting of Raise Dead keeps her at Cleric level 15 and Wisdom 24.

Also, Durkon is now down 2 levels. So... he's 13th level now?

Of course, no clue how his spells are; whether or not he has spells replenished because Durkula was a different entity or what.

We should edit Durkon's entry at least to say he's no longer deceased.
Durkon has not had the chance to pray to Thor for spells, and as such, his spells are not refreshed. Additionally, he has a 50% chance of losing each prepared spell he had remaining, because raise dead is punitive like that. Plus he lost spells prepared for losing two levels, and from losing the Vampire template's +2 bonus to WIS. The greatest number of spells he could have remaining is given here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22737279&postcount=51).

[Rogar Demonblud]

We should edit Durkon's entry at least to say he's no longer deceased.

You probably would've said that at the start of the last strip too. Let's wait a bit to see if this sticks this time.

[Obscuraphile]

Question: was Daimyo Kubota ever analysed?

[danielxcutter]

Question: was Daimyo Kubota ever analysed?

No, I believe not. Not that there's really much to go on, anyways, aside from being an Aristocrat who probably has Spymaster levels as well or something.

[Chronos]

We know that he's Lawful Evil, and that he has an Aristocrat-friendly prestige class which counteracts Zone of Truth and the like. I think that's it.

[b_jonas]

We also know that Kubota is a lousy swordsman (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0592.html), is wearing +5 armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0593.html), and used up his last dose of lotus extract poison on Therkla (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html).

[zimmerwald1915]

We also know that he never met the criteria for inclusion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22690893&postcount=1) when he was alive, and that he is now dead.

[Aquillion]

We also know that he never met the criteria for inclusion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22690893&postcount=1) when he was alive, and that he is now dead.I thought we agreed to expand it to include "any character who we have enough information to write an interesting stat block for" (and which someone is willing to take the time actually writing up a statblock for.) "Interesting" in this case meaning "actually combines a bunch of disparate information in one place, rather than just being a bunch of racial default assumptions and nothing else."

That said, there aren't very many characters that fit that criteria without being recurring. I think Kubota would maybe qualify if we could decisively identify his prestige class, but we can't. Without that there's not enough to say.

[hamishspence]

Spymaster (from Song and Silence in 3.0, or Complete Adventurer in 3.5) is the usual theory as to which PRC he has.

[D.One]

Spymaster (from Song and Silence in 3.0, or Complete Adventurer in 3.5) is the usual theory as to which PRC he has.

Not that I have any better candidates right now - I still need to do some research on the matter - but why Spymaster is considered best option?

Kubota talks about a PrC that "grants the extraordinary ability to fool magical lie detection", and there's no such ability in the spymaster list. Is it being considered that he would use the "Deep Cover" ability somehow to validate his lies as truth?

[danielxcutter]

Not that I have any better candidates right now - I still need to do some research on the matter - but why Spymaster is considered best option?

Kubota talks about a PrC that "grants the extraordinary ability to fool magical lie detection", and there's no such ability in the spymaster list. Is it being considered that he would use the "Deep Cover" ability somehow to validate his lies as truth?

That sounds like the most likely option so far, especially since Ninja is also a CAdv class.

[D.One]

That sounds like the most likely option so far, especially since Ninja is also a CAdv class.

Did a quick research here.

Complete Warior (and previously, Oriental Adventures in 3.0) have the Tattooed Monk PrC, that gives some Tattoo abilities, one of such is


White Mask: A character with this tattoo is immune to detect thoughts, detect lies, and any attempt to magically discern his alignment. He gains a +10 bonus on all Bluff checks.

The requirements for the Tattooed Monk PrC are BAB +3 (Attainable at Aristocrat 4), Lawful alignment, 8 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) (Knowledge is an Aristocrat class Skill), and the feats Endurance, Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple (feats that don't require any specific class ability. In fact, only Improved Grapple has any prerequisite at all, and they are Improved Unarmed Strike and Dex 13).

An Human Aristocrat of 5th level could qualify for Tattoed Monk, so I consider this PrC reasonably "aristocrat-friendly", and it fits in the oriental theme of Azure City.

The main problem here is that the Tattoo powers are Supernatural or Spell-like, not Extraordinary.

[danielxcutter]

The requirements for the Tattooed Monk PrC are BAB +3 (Attainable at Aristocrat 4), Lawful alignment, 8 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) (Knowledge is an Aristocrat class Skill), and the feats Endurance, Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple (feats that don't require any specific class ability. In fact, only Improved Grapple has any prerequisite at all, and they are Improved Unarmed Strike and Dex 13).

An Human Aristocrat of 5th level could qualify for Tattoed Monk, so I consider this PrC reasonably "aristocrat-friendly", and it fits in the oriental theme of Azure City.

The main problem here is that the Tattoo powers are Supernatural or Spell-like, not Extraordinary.

Plus. Y'know. I don't exactly see any tattoos.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Do we see any part of Kubota's body besides his face and hands?

[D.One]

Plus. Y'know. I don't exactly see any tattoos.

The thought occurred to me but...


Do we see any part of Kubota's body besides his face and hands?

In fact, my greatest description restriction for Tattooed Monk for Kubota (aside from the Supernatural/Extraordinary ability thing) is less about the Tattooed part (remember, Yakuza is often associated with tattoos) and more about the Monk part.

[Chronos]

I'm not sure I'd count "needs three feats that don't do anything else for him but qualifying for the class" as "aristocrat-friendly". My guess is that it's not from any standard sourcebook, and is designed specifically for corrupt noble-types.

[D.One]

I'm not sure I'd count "needs three feats that don't do anything else for him but qualifying for the class" as "aristocrat-friendly". My guess is that it's not from any standard sourcebook, and is designed specifically for corrupt noble-types.

As I said, reasonably friendly. It's true that those feats doesn't quite benefit Aristocrat's special abilities... wait, there are none.

In fact, it kinda boils down to what one would consider to be (some basic class)-friendly in a prestige class, and we can discuss until 2020 and still don't have a consensus (pretty likely, given... internet forum).

That said, Tattooed Monk is at least achievable, and achievable at a reasonably low level, for an Aristocrat, and it's the only one I found until now with an ability that is specifically said to protect against Discern Lies. However, the issue of Extraordinary x Supernatural remains open.

[Peelee]

I would like to posit that Kubota's prestige class was taken from the same sourcebook as Tarquin's class.

[D.One]

I would like to posit that Kubota's prestige class was taken from the same sourcebook as Tarquin's class.

Stickworld Handbook - Tome I: Characters

[hamishspence]

That said, Tattooed Monk is at least achievable, and achievable at a reasonably low level, for an Aristocrat, and it's the only one I found until now with an ability that is specifically said to protect against Discern Lies. However, the issue of Extraordinary x Supernatural remains open.

Given that Discern Lies is a divination spell, might things that protect against divination in general, foil it?

[D.One]

Given that Discern Lies is a divination spell, might things that protect against divination in general, foil it?

Yes, they should.

[Zenzis]

Since knowledge skills are trained only, Roy has put a point into Knowledge: Limits of My Own Sanity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html).

[D.One]

Oh, no. Another snarky one-liner being taken as a statement of mechanical fact.

I suppose at least this time it's not obviously one character insulting another.

Don't worry, because:


Since knowledge skills are trained only, Roy has put a point into Knowledge: Limits of My Own Sanity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html).

No, not quite so.

The Knowledge skill states that


An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower)

So, Roy may, in fact, be making an untrained Knowledge: Limits of My Own Sanity check.

[Resileaf]

So, Roy may, in fact, be making an untrained Knowledge: Limits of My Own Sanity check.

Nonsense. Anything sanity-related with Elan has to be at least DC 15. And with a kazoo? Can't be under 18.

[JumboWheat01]

I think you're giving Elan too little credit. Has to be DC 20 at minimum without additions.

[Zenzis]

Oh, no. Another snarky one-liner being taken as a statement of mechanical fact.

I suppose at least this time it's not obviously one character insulting another.

I mean to be fair Elan is taken as having points in perform kazoo based on that same line, when he could be making an untrained perform kazoo check. My thing was pretty hastily written though so sorry if it sounded rude.


Don't worry, because:



No, not quite so.

The Knowledge skill states that



So, Roy may, in fact, be making an untrained Knowledge: Limits of My Own Sanity check.

I took that line to mean that you can get basic knowledge about a subject by making an intelligence check, so if you are in a situation where you want to make an untrained knowledge check make an intelligence check instead. But I can see the other interpretation as being valid.

[Obscuraphile]

I mean to be fair Elan is taken as having points in perform kazoo based on that same line, when he could be making an untrained perform kazoo check. My thing was pretty hastily written though so sorry if it sounded rude.

I think the snark in question belongs to Roy rather than you.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... I think the Giant is also using Races of Stone. The title of #1026 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1026.html) is called "Goliath" Falls(and goliaths are monstrous humanoids, so they can be vampires).

It might also explain why Durkon can use a warhammer too; the 4th-level dwarf racial substitution level for Clerics trades a 2nd-level spell slot for proficiency with a warhammer and a +2 to damage rolls when using a warhammer in melee. Or you know, he just took the feat. Either way he probably has Martial Weapon Proficiency(warhammer), so yeah, I think that should be added.

[JumboWheat01]

He may also have the War Domain, since Clerics have 2 domains in 3.x, and thus snagged free Warhammer.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Or a warhammer is the preferred weapon of his deity and he used a feat to gain familiarity with it.

[ti'esar]

Or a warhammer is the preferred weapon of his deity and he used a feat to gain familiarity with it.

Considering that his deity is Thor, I feel like this is the most probable explanation.

[danielxcutter]

So... petition to add Martial Weapon Proficiency(warhammer) to Durkon's entry?

[D.One]

I mean to be fair Elan is taken as having points in perform kazoo based on that same line, when he could be making an untrained perform kazoo check. My thing was pretty hastily written though so sorry if it sounded rude.



I took that line to mean that you can get basic knowledge about a subject by making an intelligence check, so if you are in a situation where you want to make an untrained knowledge check make an intelligence check instead. But I can see the other interpretation as being valid.

I understand the argument about the DC of the Knowledge check, and how it would prevent an untrained check. That said, I must point out that what Roy is checking is not a Will save to resist insanity, is just an evaluation on how far the limits of his own sanity might go. Resisting Elan's Bardic Song of Craziness might be hard, but maybe Roy just knowing how much he can resist is more trivial. That said, being this a joke, we don't have and won't probably have any additional information on the matter.

About the Elan skill check x Roy skill check, remember that Elan intended to use the Kazoo as a mean to use Bardic Music. The bardic music abilities that requires less ranks in Perform (Countersong, Fascinate and Inspire COurage) require 3 ranks, meaning that Elan should have at least 3 ranks in Perform (Kazoo) to use Bardic Music with it. However, it's Elan we're talking about, he might have been forgetting about the rules, and since we didn't actually see him using Bardic Music with the kazoo, I'm not sure that line can be proof that he has 3 ranks in Perform (Kazoo).

Roy, on the other hand, only talks about making a skill check. No talks about taking ranks, no talks about the DC of the check (which could indicate the need for ranks).

[Quartz]

In fact, my greatest description restriction for Tattooed Monk for Kubota (aside from the Supernatural/Extraordinary ability thing) is less about the Tattooed part (remember, Yakuza is often associated with tattoos) and more about the Monk part.

Why? Think of a Monk being someone with extraordinary self-discipline.

Anyway, isn't the ability under discussion a typical ability of anti-paladins?

[Emanick]

So... petition to add Martial Weapon Proficiency(warhammer) to Durkon's entry?

I would oppose this. I think it’s slightly more likely that he got access to Thor’s favored weapon by taking the War domain. (Granted, that’s partly because that would be the mechanically optimal thing to do if he wanted to use a warhammer, and we know the Order is far from optimized - but there’s nothing unlikely about it, either.)

[Ephemera]

I mean to be fair Elan is taken as having points in perform kazoo based on that same line, when he could be making an untrained perform kazoo check. My thing was pretty hastily written though so sorry if it sounded rude.


I mean, I don't want to get too deep into this, but as a musician, I'd rule that if you can sing, you can play the kazoo just fine, so I'd allow you to use perform (sing) to play kazoo, maybe even with no penalty. Given that the perform skill counts all string and all wind instruments as single skills, I don't think "kazoo" merits its own perform skill...

[b_jonas]

About the Elan skill check x Roy skill check, remember that Elan intended to use the Kazoo as a mean to use Bardic Music. The bardic music abilities that requires less ranks in Perform (Countersong, Fascinate and Inspire COurage) require 3 ranks, meaning that Elan should have at least 3 ranks in Perform (Kazoo) to use Bardic Music with it. However, it's Elan we're talking about, he might have been forgetting about the rules, and since we didn't actually see him using Bardic Music with the kazoo, I'm not sure that line can be proof that he has 3 ranks in Perform (Kazoo).

Roy, on the other hand, only talks about making a skill check. No talks about taking ranks, no talks about the DC of the check (which could indicate the need for ranks). It's true that Elan specifically says "What if you really need the help of my bardic music". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html) But the rules are a bit unclear on whether the Bardic music abilities strictly require the specified number of ranks in the Perform skill for the mode of performance (wind instruments in the case of the kazoo and the whistle), or just that many ranks of any Perform skill. If it's the latter, then Elan probably already has enough ranks of Perform on singing or stringed instruments. Of course, more ranks would still help, because the specific Bardic music abilities require a Perform skill check, and the ranks give a bonus there. Let me quote the relevant rules from the SRL pages:

> [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm]Perform skill. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html) A bard must have at least 3 ranks in a Perform skill to inspire courage in his allies, or to use his countersong or his fascinate ability. A bard needs 6 ranks in a Perform skill to inspire competence, 9 ranks to use his suggestion ability, 12 ranks to inspire greatness, 15 ranks to use his song of freedom ability, 18 ranks to inspire heroics, and 21 ranks to use his mass suggestion ability. See Bardic Music in the bard class description.

> Bard class, on Bardic music abilities. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm) Each ability requires both a minimum bard level and a minimum number of ranks in the Perform skill to qualify; if a bard does not have the required number of ranks in at least one Perform skill, he does not gain the bardic music ability until he acquires the needed ranks.

Related question about the Bardic song ability. This one is with the lute and singing, not the kazoo. Can Elan use his Countersong ability to counter the vampire's domination? Can he at least use Inspire Courage to give a +2 or +3 bonus to the saves against the vampire's domination? Can he use both at the same time with the same song, as long as he starts Inspire Courage first? I'm thinking especially of #1104, when the boxed Order of the Stick were surrounded by low-level vampires, and collectively closed their eyes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1104.html). Obviously that strategy has some drawbacks: eg. the vampires could dominate Elan first, and the song might distract Vaarsuvius's concentration.

[D.One]

Anyway, isn't the ability under discussion a typical ability of anti-paladins?

The Blackguard doesn't have such ability, and I couldn't locate an "anti-paladin" class...

[InvisibleBison]

I would oppose this. I think it’s slightly more likely that he got access to Thor’s favored weapon by taking the War domain. (Granted, that’s partly because that would be the mechanically optimal thing to do if he wanted to use a warhammer, and we know the Order is far from optimized - but there’s nothing unlikely about it, either.)

But the War domain gives you proficiency in your deity's favored weapon by giving you Martial Weapon Proficiency as a bonus feat, so even if Durkon has selected the war domain he'd still have Martial Weapon Proficiency (warhammer).

[danielxcutter]

But the War domain gives you proficiency in your deity's favored weapon by giving you Martial Weapon Proficiency as a bonus feat, so even if Durkon has selected the war domain he'd still have Martial Weapon Proficiency (warhammer).

Drat, was going to say this.

But yeah.

[hamishspence]

Durkon's been previously established as having the Good domain. And he can cast Call Lightning - normally a Druid spell. Since it's not on the Good domain list, it follows that Durkon's other domain must grant it (he's shown no signs of actually having druid levels.)

Call Lightning is not on the War domain list, so Durkon's other domain must be something else. Possibly a homebrew domain?

EDIT: The last time it was brought up, it was mentioned that the Storm Domain from FRCS works:




Call Lightning is the third level domain spell of the Forgotten Realms Storm Domain.

[zimmerwald1915]

Durkon's been previously established as having the Good domain. And he can cast Call Lightning - normally a Druid spell. Since it's not on the Good domain list, it follows that Durkon's other domain must grant it (he's shown no signs of actually having druid levels.)

Call Lightning is not on the War domain list, so Durkon's other domain must be something else. Possibly a homebrew domain?

EDIT: The last time it was brought up, it was mentioned that the Storm Domain from FRCS works:
Call lightning is also the third-level spell of the Weather Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm), which, being on the SRD, would seem more likely than a Forgotten Realms domain. . . if Durkon ever prepared control winds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0850.html), which is also in the Weather Domain.

Also, Thor's lightning has only ever worked like call lightning once, during the attack on the bandit camp. More often, it works like lightning bolt. Which could be artistic license, or a concession to Durkon doing most of his fighting indoors, but that goes against the spirit of the thread.

[hamishspence]

The reason Durkon has Call Lightning in his statblock, is that in the Dungeon Crawling Fools intro, he actually said "Call Lightning" instead of "Thor's Lightning"

Weather Domain, which, being on the SRD, would seem more likely than a Forgotten Realms domain. . . if Durkon ever prepared control winds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0850.html), which is also in the Weather Domain.



Malack cast Control Winds (from a scroll) prior to that scene - and then made use of the active spell. Durkon tried to dispel it, but we don't see him try to cast it himself.

The Weather domain on the SRD is also somewhat out-of-date - it was majorly revised in Complete Divine, then received a rename to Windstorm (and one spell swapped out) in Spell Compendium.

[zimmerwald1915]

Durkon tried to dispel it, but we don't see him try to cast it himself.
Yes, that was the point I was making. Had he the spell, he surely would have just cast it.

[hamishspence]

It's also worth noting that the Weather domain on the SRD is also somewhat out-of-date - it was majorly revised in Complete Divine, then received a rename to Windstorm (and one spell swapped out) in Spell Compendium.

Storm domain was also included in Spell Compendium.


Had he the spell, he surely would have just cast it.

He could have filled his 6th level domain slot from his Good domain - however, that would have to have been Blade Barrier, and I don't recall him ever casting it. Did he say he was running low on spells, during the fight with Malack?


Had he the spell, he surely would have just cast it.

He didn't prepare it. But it is implied that he can:



Spells: Standard cleric list, domain spells, plus Bless Beer (WXP), Call Lightning (DCF), Cat's Grace (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0027.html), Control Winds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html), Cure Itchy Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html), Heat Blisters of Eternal Pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html), Heathen Smiting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html), Mass Death Ward with backdoor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0876.html), Thor's Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html), and Tumor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html).


I would assume that Cure Itchy Wounds is simply Durkon joking when he's using Cure Minor Wounds or similar, and that Beer is close enough to water that Bless Water works on Beer, with the dwarves choosing to rename the spell for their own use.

[Aquillion]

Technically Durkon could have a Skillful Warhammer, although using that for a warhammer is hilariously suboptimal. (Then again, there's not really any optimal reasons why anyone would jump through hoops just to get a warhammer.)

...I mean, if we're talking suboptimal choices, there's also the possibility that he's just using a weapon he's not proficient in, although that would probably ruin some of the combat math we have for him.

But the most likely answer is that he simply took the feat.


I would oppose this. I think it’s slightly more likely that he got access to Thor’s favored weapon by taking the War domain.

War Domain grants the feat anyway, and we don't list domains, so either way he ends up with the same stat sheet here (unless someone wants to take my tongue-in-cheek suggestions above seriously.)

[Chronos]

Yeah, he (almost) certainly has the feat (I think we can neglect the possibility that he's been spending all this time swinging around a weapon he's not even proficient in). How exactly he got the feat is still unknown (domain, or dwarf cleric racial substitution level, or just spending a feat slot on it), but he has it somehow.

For his wind-and-lightning domain, if we ignore his specific use of Call Lightning in the DCF prologue, Thor's Lightning could be Chain Lightning, in which case it could be the core Air Domain.

And part of the joke behind Elan's kazoo is that he managed to find a form of performance which isn't covered under any of the Perform skill's categories, since a kazoo isn't actually a wind instrument.

[Obscuraphile]

And part of the joke behind Elan's kazoo is that he managed to find a form of performance which isn't covered under any of the Perform skill's categories, since a kazoo isn't actually a wind instrument.

Umm, how so?

[hamishspence]

At least going by Wikipedia, wooden ones would qualify as woodwind instruments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazoo

The kazoo is a musical instrument that adds a "buzzing" timbral quality to a player's voice when the player vocalizes into it. It is a type of mirliton, which is a membranophone, one of a class of instruments which modifies its player's voice by way of a vibrating membrane.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch_flute

The eunuch flute, or onion flute, or mirliton (Fr. flûte eunuque, flûte à l'oignon and mirliton; Ger. Zwiebelflöte) is a musical instrument of the woodwind family used during the 16th and 17th centuries, producing music akin to the comb-music of the nursery, and still manufactured as a toy ("mirliton").

And flutes can be considered "wind" and "woodwind" even when not actually made of wood but of metal. I would guess the same principle would apply to kazoos.

[ArkenBrony]

Yeah, he (almost) certainly has the feat (I think we can neglect the possibility that he's been spending all this time swinging around a weapon he's not even proficient in). How exactly he got the feat is still unknown (domain, or dwarf cleric racial substitution level, or just spending a feat slot on it), but he has it somehow.

For his wind-and-lightning domain, if we ignore his specific use of Call Lightning in the DCF prologue, Thor's Lightning could be Chain Lightning, in which case it could be the core Air Domain.

And part of the joke behind Elan's kazoo is that he managed to find a form of performance which isn't covered under any of the Perform skill's categories, since a kazoo isn't actually a wind instrument.

here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html) maleck states it's a 3rd level spell, so lightning bolt would b more appropriate. i don't know what domain, if any, fits that.

[hamishspence]

I could be wrong, but as far as I recall, no official domain offers lightning bolt. Maybe this one is home-brew.

Perhaps Cat's Grace is its 2nd level domain slot, Lightning Bolt its 3rd, and Call Lightning is bumped up to 4th from its usual 3rd place? Sometimes domain spells are in a slot a little above or below where they would be on another class's list.

[Peelee]

I could be wrong, but as far as I recall, no official domain offers lightning bolt. Maybe this one is home-brew.

The Thor Domain?

[Ephemera]

Umm, how so?

Okay, I said I didn’t want to get deep into it, but this is the geekery thread after all and this is a subject I have some actual real world expertise in.

Woodwinds, irrespective of what they’re made of, are instruments that you blow through and change the pitch by shortening the air column. You blow through some sort of device that vibrates (usually a reed, double reed, or something that just splits the air column as in flutes and recorders), which causes the air in the instrument to vibrate, then, through the use of uncovering holes (or pressing keys that do so), you shorten tha or column to raise the pitch, It doesn’t matter whether the instrument is made of metal, wood, plastic, bone or glass (just to pick some things that people make actual woodwinds out of).

Brass instruments are ones where you buzz your lips through a mouthpiece. You change the pitch by making the instrument longer (literally in the case of a trombone, or by opening up new pipes for the air to go through in the case of valved instruments) and also by changing how hard you squeeze your lips in order to play a whole overtone series for each possible length of pipe.

The term “wind instrument” in general is a little more I’ll-defined but these are the two main categories. A kazoo is neither, but simply a device that you sing into which makes your voice sound funny, and the pitch element is provided completely by the player’s vocal chords, which is why I was postulating that you would probably use the perform (sing) skill to play it.

The rest of the joke is that you don’t really need any particular skill to play the kazoo, just to be able to sing. I’ve actually been paid to play the kazoo both at Carnegie Hall and at Lincoln Center (no, really), because there are no professional kazoo players, so when you need one (doesn’t happen much but does once in a while) you hire a singer, not a “wind” player...

[Obscuraphile]

Okay, I said I didn’t want to get deep into it, but this is the geekery thread after all and this is a subject I have some actual real world expertise in.

Woodwinds, irrespective of what they’re made of, are instruments that you blow through and change the pitch by shortening the air column. You blow through some sort of device that vibrates (usually a reed, double reed, or something that just splits the air column as in flutes and recorders), which causes the air in the instrument to vibrate, then, through the use of uncovering holes (or pressing keys that do so), you shorten tha or column to raise the pitch, It doesn’t matter whether the instrument is made of metal, wood, plastic, bone or glass (just to pick some things that people make actual woodwinds out of).

Brass instruments are ones where you buzz your lips through a mouthpiece. You change the pitch by making the instrument longer (literally in the case of a trombone, or by opening up new pipes for the air to go through in the case of valved instruments) and also by changing how hard you squeeze your lips in order to play a whole overtone series for each possible length of pipe.

The term “wind instrument” in general is a little more I’ll-defined but these are the two main categories. A kazoo is neither, but simply a device that you sing into which makes your voice sound funny, and the pitch element is provided completely by the player’s vocal chords, which is why I was postulating that you would probably use the perform (sing) skill to play it.

The rest of the joke is that you don’t really need any particular skill to play the kazoo, just to be able to sing. I’ve actually been paid to play the kazoo both at Carnegie Hall and at Lincoln Center (no, really), because there are no professional kazoo players, so when you need one (doesn’t happen much but does once in a while) you hire a singer, not a “wind” player...

Interesting technical definitions aside, the kazoo is a device that you force air through in order to produce a sound. Just because its method of functioning is different from those of more popular instruments doesn't remove it from the category, and as you rightly point out the term wind instrument has quite a bit of inherent ambiguity. Just because we in the real world can look at a kazoo and say the skill set required fits more closely with singing than with other wind instruments doesn't mean that changes the rules. Given the overall nature of OOTS I would say that a rule that contradicts common sense is more likely to apply rather than less. After all, everyone knows that your hearing and vision get better as you age. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0218.html)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Interesting technical definitions aside, the kazoo is a device that you force air through in order to produce a sound.

So is a church organ. "Pushing air through to produce a sound" is too broad a definition to use for woodwinds. How the sound is produced is crucial to how the instrument sounds, and that is what is important for instrument families. A kazoo does not fit in with the woodwinds, and thus it is not one.

Grey Wolf

[Obscuraphile]

So is a church organ. "Pushing air through to produce a sound" is too broad a definition to use for woodwinds. How the sound is produced is crucial to how the instrument sounds, and that is what is important for instrument families. A kazoo does not fit in with the woodwinds, and thus it is not one.

Grey Wolf

My actual quote being "that you force air through"

You being a person and my intention being that the air comes from your lungs.

I never said that a kazoo was a woodwind. In fact I think I acknowledged that it didn't fit the category of woodwind, but that doesn't mean it's not a wind instrument at all. Unless you are suggesting that a kazoo belongs in the category of keyboard instrument.

[Ephemera]

Interesting technical definitions aside, the kazoo is a device that you force air through in order to produce a sound. Just because its method of functioning is different from those of more popular instruments doesn't remove it from the category, and as you rightly point out the term wind instrument has quite a bit of inherent ambiguity. Just because we in the real world can look at a kazoo and say the skill set required fits more closely with singing than with other wind instruments doesn't mean that changes the rules. Given the overall nature of OOTS I would say that a rule that contradicts common sense is more likely to apply rather than less. After all, everyone knows that your hearing and vision get better as you age. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0218.html)

First if “technical definitions aside” is our principle, we might as well give up. “Force air thorough” is nowhere in my definition of a wind instrument, it’s all in how the sound is produced—in fact, the pipes of a church organ make noise just like woodwinds (whether they are is kind of complicated, I’d say “sort of”). A kazoo isn’t an instrument that makes noise by having air blown into it, it’s a thing you sing into. Is a megaphone a wind instrument (a purely mechanical old-fashioned one)? How about a microphone?

We don’t have a ton to go on other than real world examples, but I’d say that while it’s a little silly in real world terms to have a wind/string skill (since playing each instrument is related but by no means the same—obviously they’re grouped for mechanical reasons because it’s not that mechanically useful to be able to play a single instrument), they’re grouped by how you play them not how they produce tone. Hence pipe organ is a keyboard instrument. How do you play a wind instrument? You shape your mouth the right way and do the right things with your fingers to make the notes. How do you play a kazoo? You put it up to your mouth and sing into it...

So what I’m suggesting isn’t that it’s a keyboard instrument but rather that you play it using perform (sing) or conceivably that it can be played using either sing or wind instrument, but I’d rule “sing” if I were DM.

Obviously this is pretty far off topic even for us, so...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My actual quote being "that you force air through"

You being a person and my intention being that the air comes from your lungs.
Ah, so you complained about it being a "technical" definition, and now you try to get all "technical" on me about where the air must come from? Yeah, I'm not buying what you are selling. I don't care if the air comes from my lungs, an air reservoir or key pressings. Your definition is too broad by far. All instruments, sooner or later, involve moving air. What matters is how the air is shaped - with your lips, with your throat, with a reed, with strings, etc. The kazoo, as per the above, is closer to singing than wind instruments, and as such is classified.


I never said that a kazoo was a woodwind. In fact I think I acknowledged that it didn't fit the category of woodwind, but that doesn't mean it's not a wind instrument at all. Unless you are suggesting that a kazoo belongs in the category of keyboard instrument.
"Wind instrument" is a supercategory of woodwinds and brass instruments, so I'm guessing you are now suggesting that the kazoo is a brass instrument? Because it is not that either.

And nice strawman there with the "keyboard" business.

Grey Wolf

[Obscuraphile]

Ah, so you complained about it being a "technical" definition, and now you try to get all "technical" on me about where the air must come from? Yeah, I'm not buying what you are selling. I don't care if the air comes from my lungs, an air reservoir or key pressings. Your definition is too broad by far.

"Wind instrument" is a supercategory of woodwinds and brass instruments, so I'm guessing you are now suggesting that the kazoo is a brass instrument? Because it is not that either.

And nice strawman there with the "keyboard" business.

Grey Wolf

I did not complain about anything. I just pointed out that while Ephemera's information was interesting it didn't really address the issue.

In the perform skill for D&D we have 4 types of instruments, keyboard, percussion, string, and wind. Wind instrument is not a super-category of woodwinds and brass instruments it is a super-category of instruments you play by using your mouth to blow air through them. And I'll counter your strawman accusation with two of my own 1) never said a kazoo was a woodwind instrument, 2) never said it was a brass instrument. I acknowledged that it does not fit the category of either especially given the interesting technical definitions provided by Ephemera. HOWEVER this does not remove it entirely from the category of wind instrument.

No idea why this had to become hostile.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

HOWEVER this does not remove it entirely from the category of wind instrument.

Yes, yes it does:

Wind instruments are typically grouped into two families:

Brass instruments (horns, trumpets, trombones, euphoniums, and tubas)
Woodwind instruments (recorders, flutes, oboes, clarinets, saxophones, and bassoons)
If it is not a brass or a woodwind, then the kazoo is not a wind instrument.

Your definition of what makes a wind instrument is incorrect: it has nothing to do with blowing air into the instrument, and thus your overly broad definition to try to hammer the kazoo into the category fails. The kazoo is a singing instrument.

Grey Wolf

[Obscuraphile]

Wind instruments are typically grouped into two families:

Brass instruments (horns, trumpets, trombones, euphoniums, and tubas)
Woodwind instruments (recorders, flutes, oboes, clarinets, saxophones, and bassoons)

If it is not a brass or a woodwind, then the kazoo is not a wind instrument.

Your definition of what makes a wind instrument is incorrect: it has nothing to do with blowing air into the instrument, and thus your overly broad definition to try to hammer the kazoo into the category fails. The kazoo is a singing instrument.

Grey Wolf

1) Typically. Wikipedia link detailing the difficulties of classifying instruments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_instrument_classification#Western_classifi cation)

2) Where is that in the SRD?

[ArkenBrony]

1) Typically. Wikipedia link detailing the difficulties of classifying instruments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_instrument_classification#Western_classifi cation)

2) Where is that in the SRD?

It seems you are insisting that the lack of specificty in the srd on what “wind” instruments are dictates they aren’t the same category as the real world’s definition.

There is no reason to push this idea, with lack of evidence either way, why not ciew it how it’s viewed in real life? It requires less assumption and is more accurate.

But specifically, srd just lists instruments that fit, all of which are in the woodwind or brass family.

[Reboot]

Also, let's point out here that given "Oh Buddy Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html)" and "your music is green like me (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0593.html)", Elan almost certainly has Perform (Sing) ranks anyway...

[Obscuraphile]

It seems you are insisting that the lack of specificty in the srd on what “wind” instruments are dictates they aren’t the same category as the real world’s definition.

There is no reason to push this idea, with lack of evidence either way, why not ciew it how it’s viewed in real life? It requires less assumption and is more accurate.

But specifically, srd just lists instruments that fit, all of which are in the woodwind or brass family.

And the fact that hamishspence provided links verifying that at least some people define a kazoo as a woodwind instrument means what exactly? Or that the line for sing in the srd makes no mention of instruments but instead refers to types of song?

The claim was put forward that kazoo doesn't fall under any of Performs categories, not that it was a "singing instrument." And what's more you don't even put ranks in a specific instrument for the perform skill to begin with, so getting back to the topic of this thread, Elan probably just doesnt understand the rules, again. And, how a kazoo is adjudicated probably falls into the purview of the DM.

[zimmerwald1915]

And what's more you don't even put ranks in a specific instrument for the perform skill to begin with
Not to make money with the skill. You do need a certain number of ranks in a Perform skill to use that skill for Bardic Music.

[Obscuraphile]

Not to make money with the skill. You do need a certain number of ranks in a Perform skill to use that skill for Bardic Music.

Cool, what does that have to do with putting ranks in a specific instrument? The thing I was talking about.

[JumboWheat01]

Cool, what does that have to do with putting ranks in a specific instrument? The thing I was talking about.

3.5 PHB, page 75
You are skilled in a type of artistic expression, which may encompass
a variety of specific methods, and you know how to put on a
show.
Like Craft, Knowledge, and Profession, Perform is actually a
number of separate skills. For instance, you could have the skill
Perform (act). Your ranks in that skill don’t affect any checks you
happen to make for Perform (oratory) or Perform (string
instruments). You could have several Perform skills, each with its
own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill.
Each of the nine categories of the Perform skill includes a variety
of methods, instruments, or techniques, a small list of which is
provided for each category below. The DM is free to expand any of
these categories with additional methods, instruments, or techniques,
as appropriate for his or her campaign.

Act (comedy, drama, mime)
Comedy (buffoonery, limericks, joke-telling)
Dance (ballet, waltz, jig)
Keyboard instruments (harpsichord, piano, pipe organ)
Oratory (epic, ode, storytelling)
Percussion instruments (bells, chimes, drums, gong)
String instruments (fiddle, harp, lute, mandolin)
Wind instruments (flute, pan pipes, recorder, shawm, trumpet)
Sing (ballad, chant, melody)



And then page 79 to 80...

A bard must have at least 3 ranks in a Perform skill to
inspire courage in his allies, or to use his countersong or his fascinate
ability. A bard needs 6 ranks in a Perform skill to inspire competence,
9 ranks to use his suggestion ability, 12 ranks to inspire
greatness, 15 ranks to use his song of freedom ability, 18 ranks to
inspire heroics, and 21 ranks to use his mass suggestion ability. See
Bardic Music in the bard class description, page 29.

If you don't have enough ranks in the Perform skill of your choice, you can't use bardic music with it.

[Obscuraphile]

If you don't have enough ranks in the Perform skill of your choice, you can't use bardic music with it.

Once again, I. get. that. I understand how the perform skill works and how bardic music works. What I am talking about is the fact that nobody takes Perform (Violin) or Perform (Trumpet) or even Perform (Kazoo). They take Perform (Stringed Instruments) or Perform (Wind Instruments) or possibly Perform (Sing). Where a kazoo falls seems to be up to a DM but you still wouldn't take Perform (Kazoo)

[Ephemera]

A vigorous argument about what skill you need to play the kazoo is either peak geekery, or possibly this thread jumping the shark. I guess I kind of started it though, so I shan’t complain.

[Peelee]

Class and Level Geekery XVI - Enough With the Kazoo Already?

[Aquillion]

A vigorous argument about what skill you need to play the kazoo is either peak geekery, or possibly this thread jumping the shark. I guess I kind of started it though, so I shan’t complain.If we're not going to argue completely-unimportant mechanical minutae, then what's this thread even for? :smallbiggrin:

[b_jonas]

Aquillion: why, it's for infinite arguments about Infinite Deflection, and repeated requests to add statblocks for minor characters of whom we don't have any in game information. Hey, the gods seem like important characters, so let's add a section for each of them! Zeus, Poseidon, Ares, Hades, Apollo, Demeter, Aphrodite, Dragon, Snake, Horse, Goat, Monkey, Rooster, Dog, Pig, Rat, Ox, Tiger, Rabbit, Marduk, Tiamat, Nergal, Ereshkagal, Vaarsuvius's ancient elven god of knowledge, keeper of secrets so mighty that even the smallest taste of them would shatter your sanity, Veldrina's rather minor elven god, Thor, Odin, Loki, Hel, Freya, Balder, Sunna, Heimdall, Tyr, Sif, Frigg, Freyr, Fenrir, Hoder, Skadi, Njord, Mani, Vafthrudnir, Dvalin, Thrym, Hermod, Surtur, Sigrun, Bragi, Iounn, the handful of unidentified western and northern gods that have appeared on panel, The Dark One, Banjo, Giggles, Banjulhu. Also, let's add entries for all the animals in Roy's bag of tricks, such as the rhino, on the grounds that they're part of an important group, namely the Order of the Stick.

[Obscuraphile]

Class and Level Geekery XVI - Enough With the Kazoo Already?

Seconded!!

[RatElemental]

Class and Level Geekery XVI - Enough With the Kazoo Already?

Well great, now we need to argue about kazoos for five more pages so this can be the title of the next thread.

Worth it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So if a kazoo comes under Sing, where do accordions fit?

[Obscuraphile]

So if a kazoo comes under Sing, where do accordions fit?

Keyboard, just a portable version.

[D.One]

Even though the Perform skill has 9 stated categories, I see no problem in assuming a specific Perform (Kazoo) skill, given that:

1) The skill text itself says that "The DM is free to expand any of these categories with additional methods, instruments, or techniques, as appropriate for his or her campaign"

2) One of our main rules is:


Q: Is a character's statement about another character considered evidence?
Yes. We assume that when a character says something about another character's (or his own) ability scores, build, feats, and so forth, they are speaking the truth, except where this contradicts with other evidence or is clearly not possible within the rules.

3) Roy specifically states that what Elan is doing is Perform (Kazoo).

4) We have accepted other comedic deviations, like Craft Disturbing Mental Image and Cure Itchy Wounds.



Class and Level Geekery XVI - Enough With the Kazoo Already?

Oh, This is my favorite until now.

[b_jonas]

3) Roy specifically states that what Elan is doing is Perform (Kazoo). That was in a sarcastic statement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html) where Roy also mentioned "Knowledge (Limits of My Own Sanity)", in the last panel. We shouldn't take it seriously.

[D.One]

That was in a sarcastic statement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html) where Roy also mentioned "Knowledge (Limits of My Own Sanity)", in the last panel. We shouldn't take it seriously.


4) We have accepted other comedic deviations, like Craft Disturbing Mental Image and Cure Itchy Wounds.

I really don't see much difference beetween this and the Craft Disturbing Mental Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html) situation...

In fact, I'd advocate for mantaining both Perform (Kazoo) and Craft Disturbing Mental Image.

The only reason I'd be against registering ranks in Knowledge (Limits of My Own Sanity) is because, if the check had DC 10 or less, Roy wouldn't need ranks to roll it.

[ArkenBrony]

I really don't see much difference beetween this and the Craft Disturbing Mental Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html) situation...

In fact, I'd advocate for mantaining both Perform (Kazoo) and Craft Disturbing Mental Image.

The only reason I'd be against registering ranks in Knowledge (Limits of My Own Sanity) is because, if the check had DC 10 or less, Roy wouldn't need ranks to roll it.

Well specifically, belkar says that he just took the feat, while roy makes a quip that because elan is making a skill check, he’s making a different skill check, both of which for the context of that one joke could be made untrained

[Chronos]

Has nobody else here ever made a kazoo by wrapping wax paper around a comb? A kazoo can't be an instrument you blow air through, because a comb doesn't even have a "through".

And heck, there are wind instruments you don't blow through, too, like the uilleann pipes.

Though I will grant that it's extremely odd to put brass and woodwind instruments in the same category to begin with. There are some similarities even between an oboe, a flute, and a saxophone, but almost none between any of those and a bugle, a trombone, or a French horn. About the only skill the wind instruments all have in common is breath management.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Though I will grant that it's extremely odd to put brass and woodwind instruments in the same category to begin with. There are some similarities even between an oboe, a flute, and a saxophone, but almost none between any of those and a bugle, a trombone, or a French horn.

About the only skill the wind instruments all have in common is breath management.

... Which is why they do go together. Also, something about how they sound makes them be classified as a group , too (which is why I hear a lot that saxophone is NOT be considered a brass instrument, because it doesn't fit in with the rest of the orchestral brass instruments).

The names, I suspect, are part of the problem. You might expect a "woodwind" to have something to do with, you know, wood and wind, but as it turns out that is a historical name that fails to match the reality. There are woodwinds with not a trace of wood in them, and as per the above, the whole business with "wind" is horrendously common and thus not useful for classification.

Grey Wolf

[Obscuraphile]

Roy makes a quip that because elan is making a skill check, he’s making a different skill check, both of which for the context of that one joke could be made untrained

Well unfortunately for this angle, Roy specifically says "[Elan] put points in Perform (Kazoo)"


Has nobody else here ever made a kazoo by wrapping wax paper around a comb? A kazoo can't be an instrument you blow air through, because a comb doesn't even have a "through".

And heck, there are wind instruments you don't blow through, too, like the uilleann pipes.

Though I will grant that it's extremely odd to put brass and woodwind instruments in the same category to begin with. There are some similarities even between an oboe, a flute, and a saxophone, but almost none between any of those and a bugle, a trombone, or a French horn. About the only skill the wind instruments all have in common is breath management.

Well I'd say here we are once again running up against the vagaries of the category structure.

Also I would like to submit for categorization a split leaf or blade of grass, one's own hands, and whistling.

[ArkenBrony]

Well unfortunately for this angle, Roy specifically says "[Elan] put points in Perform (Kazoo)"



Well I'd say here we are once again running up against the vagaries of the category structure.

Also I would like to submit for categorization a split leaf or blade of grass, one's own hands, and whistling.

my bad, good point

[zimmerwald1915]

Also I would like to submit for categorization a split leaf or blade of grass, one's own hands, and whistling.
Each of these is a form of reed (as are indeed vocal cords).

[Obscuraphile]

Each of these is a form of reed (as are indeed vocal cords).

Does that make singing a wind instrument?

[Zenzis]

An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

Whether or not Roy gets that skill seems to hinge on the interpretation of this line. I still think it reads as "If you have something that would be an untrained knowledge check, it is actually just an intelligence check." Like if I want to know if chickens need water, I'm not actually tapping into any specialized knowledge (nature) I have studied, I'm just trying to use my intelligence and pull up some common knowledge.

[Jasdoif]

I still think it reads as "If you have something that would be an untrained knowledge check, it is actually just an intelligence check." Like if I want to know if chickens need water, I'm not actually tapping into any specialized knowledge (nature) I have studied, I'm just trying to use my intelligence and pull up some common knowledge.Someone with Knowledge (Nature) ranks is less likely to get that wrong or fail to come up with an answer...which is why it's still a Knowledge (Nature) check even if the DC is low enough that someone without ranks can make the check.

I'm currently imagining people from a community in the Elemental Plane of Earth, who've heard of chickens but never seen them firsthand, and don't take drinking water for granted since elemental creatures don't need to; as the scenario where rolling this Knowledge (Nature) check might be needed.

[D.One]

Whether or not Roy gets that skill seems to hinge on the interpretation of this line. I still think it reads as "If you have something that would be an untrained knowledge check, it is actually just an intelligence check." Like if I want to know if chickens need water, I'm not actually tapping into any specialized knowledge (nature) I have studied, I'm just trying to use my intelligence and pull up some common knowledge.

By that same line of thought, knowing one's own sanity's limits might as well fall into Inteligence check area. Remember that what we are measuring with the DC here is not how hard it is to not go insane (that would be the DC for a Will save), is how hard it is to know if something like Elan playing a Kazoo for some time is capable of driving one insane. I'd even risk to say that perceiving Elan is able to drive anyone nuts is quite easy, by the way :smallbiggrin:

[Zenzis]

Someone with Knowledge (Nature) ranks is less likely to get that wrong or fail to come up with an answer...which is why it's still a Knowledge (Nature) check even if the DC is low enough that someone without ranks can make the check.

I'm currently imagining people from a community in the Elemental Plane of Earth, who've heard of chickens but never seen them firsthand, and don't take drinking water for granted since elemental creatures don't need to; as the scenario where rolling this Knowledge (Nature) check might be needed.


By that same line of thought, knowing one's own sanity's limits might as well fall into Inteligence check area. Remember that what we are measuring with the DC here is not how hard it is to not go insane (that would be the DC for a Will save), is how hard it is to know if something like Elan playing a Kazoo for some time is capable of driving one insane. I'd even risk to say that perceiving Elan is able to drive anyone nuts is quite easy, by the way :smallbiggrin:


An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

I think I might be poorly explaining, but maybe it is a good indication that my reading is not the common view. The way I read that line is that either:
1. You are making a trained knowledge check
or
2. You are simply making an Intelligence check, which can only get you common knowledge with a DC of 10 or less

In case 2, you are not making a knowledge check at all, you are making an intelligence check.

@Jasdoif
Yeah in that case I would actually rule that they would need to be trained, since I would consider "common knowledge" relative to their common knowledge rather than a player's. Of course I would never make anyone make a check for common knowledge anyways, because it is kind of silly and bogs the game down, so I would assume they have it unless they have some explicit reason not to have it, like spending their life on the plane of earth.

[D.One]

I think I might be poorly explaining, but maybe it is a good indication that my reading is not the common view. The way I read that line is that either:
1. You are making a trained knowledge check
or
2. You are simply making an Intelligence check, which can only get you common knowledge with a DC of 10 or less

In case 2, you are not making a knowledge check at all, you are making an intelligence check.

@Jasdoif
Yeah in that case I would actually rule that they would need to be trained, since I would consider "common knowledge" relative to their common knowledge rather than a player's. Of course I would never make anyone make a check for common knowledge anyways, because it is kind of silly and bogs the game down, so I would assume they have it unless they have some explicit reason not to have it, like spending their life on the plane of earth.

The way I see (and I may be wrong, mind it), that Intelligence check for DC 10 or less is still a Knowledge (appropriate type) check, but can be made even by someone without ranks. I think that because, if it was a pure INT check, no Knowledge skill involved, someone with the skill wouldn't benefit from its ranks in the roll.

To compare with another skill, let's pick a skill that is not "trained only". Bluff, for example. Someone without ranks in Bluff who uses the skill untrained is still using Bluff, not a Charisma check, even though that character is, in fact, making a Charisma check.

Going back to the Knowledge check, suppose that a character without ranks in Knowledge (Nature) but with 5 ranks in Survival (that gives a +2 synergy bonus to Knowledge (Nature)) will make a "common knowledge" DC 10 Knowledge (Nature) check. If it was an Intelligence check, and not a untrained skill check, the synergy bonus shouldn't apply.

[Zenzis]

The way I see (and I may be wrong, mind it), that Intelligence check for DC 10 or less is still a Knowledge (appropriate type) check, but can be made even by someone without ranks. I think that because, if it was a pure INT check, no Knowledge skill involved, someone with the skill wouldn't benefit from its ranks in the roll.

To compare with another skill, let's pick a skill that is not "trained only". Bluff, for example. Someone without ranks in Bluff who uses the skill untrained is still using Bluff, not a Charisma check, even though that character is, in fact, making a Charisma check.

Going back to the Knowledge check, suppose that a character without ranks in Knowledge (Nature) but with 5 ranks in Survival (that gives a +2 synergy bonus to Knowledge (Nature)) will make a "common knowledge" DC 10 Knowledge (Nature) check. If it was an Intelligence check, and not a untrained skill check, the synergy bonus shouldn't apply.

I think that example actually convinces me more the other way, because if bluff included the line "An untrained Bluff check is simply a Charisma check," I would definitely say "A bluff check without ranks is not a bluff check but a Charisma check." Otherwise that line would serve no purpose, except maybe to remind people how checks worked, in which case it would be weird that all skills didn't include that reminder.

The synergy bonus is an interesting thought. I honestly have to think about how I would count the synergy bonus in that case. Having 5 ranks in jump would not allow you to tumble. This makes sense and the synergy bonus makes sense, because if you know how to jump well and you know how to tumble, you can incorporate your jumping prowess into your tumbling. If you know how to jump but don't know how to tumble then you can't tumble just by virtue of jumping. As far as I am aware there isn't an SRD answer to whether you would count that synergy or not for survival->the weird section on untrained knowledge, even though knowledge is a trained skill.

[Chronos]

I think what clinches it for me is that the Knowledge skill is, after all, listed as being [Trained only]. So when you make an untrained check, it can't be a Knowledge skill check; all it can be is a plain ordinary Intelligence check (which would also not get any synergy bonuses).


Quoth Zenzis:

Like if I want to know if chickens need water, I'm not actually tapping into any specialized knowledge (nature) I have studied, I'm just trying to use my intelligence and pull up some common knowledge.
An interesting example, because, while it's common knowledge (at least to Material Plane humans) that chickens need water, it's not common knowledge just how much water they need, and someone who tried to estimate it based on human needs and their size (i.e., just using their intelligence, not any knowledge of chickens specifically) would get a horribly low answer.

[D.One]

I think that example actually convinces me more the other way, because if bluff included the line "An untrained Bluff check is simply a Charisma check," I would definitely say "A bluff check without ranks is not a bluff check but a Charisma check." Otherwise that line would serve no purpose, except maybe to remind people how checks worked, in which case it would be weird that all skills didn't include that reminder.

The synergy bonus is an interesting thought. I honestly have to think about how I would count the synergy bonus in that case. Having 5 ranks in jump would not allow you to tumble. This makes sense and the synergy bonus makes sense, because if you know how to jump well and you know how to tumble, you can incorporate your jumping prowess into your tumbling. If you know how to jump but don't know how to tumble then you can't tumble just by virtue of jumping. As far as I am aware there isn't an SRD answer to whether you would count that synergy or not for survival->the weird section on untrained knowledge, even though knowledge is a trained skill.

1) Theory

In fact, SRD isn't very clear about how that would work. Let's take a look:


Generally, if your character attempts to use a skill he or she does not possess, you make a skill check as normal. The skill modifier doesn’t have a skill rank added in because the character has no ranks in the skill. Any other applicable modifiers, such as the modifier for the skill’s key ability, are applied to the check.

And we have that:


Sometimes a character tries to do something to which no specific skill really applies. In these cases, you make an ability check. An ability check is a roll of 1d20 plus the appropriate ability modifier. Essentially, you’re making an untrained skill check.

Skills like Knowledge and Sleight of Hand state that an Untrained Check (that can only be atempted for DCs of 10 or lower) "is simply an [ability] check".

2) Specific Problem

Roy says he will make a Knowledge (Limits of my own sanity) check. We have two possibilities here (aside from the pure joke, of course. I'll disregard the pure joke possibility mostly because what we do here is trying to find games-mechanics sense in joke-filled speeches):

a) The DC of such check is 10 or lower: Roy could make the check untrained.

b) The DC of such check is higher than 10: that would be proof that Roy has at least 1 rank in Knowledge (Limits of my own sanity).

Even though I believe that anyone who spends time with Elan should take a few ranks in the skill, we don't really have (or will ever have, I think) indication about the check's DC, so we can't be sure if Roy needed or not ranks to be able to make the check.

That said, we have two hypothesis:

I) Since the Knowledge skills says that "an untrained Knowledge check (DCs of 10 or lower) is simply an Intelligence check" and since Roy says he will make a Knowledge (Limits of my own sanity) check, instead of saying he will make an Intelligence check, that would be proof that he has ranks in the skill, because an untrained check wouldn't be considered (in the case of this skill) a skill check at all, just an ability check.

II) Since an ability check is essentially an untrained skill check, that would mean that even the "simply an ability check" rankless Knowledge check would still be a Knowledge check, and thus Roy's speech about making a Knowledge (Limits of my own sanity) check could be reffering to an untrained one, which would mean he didn't need to have ranks to make the check. That way, his speech wouldn't be evidence of him having the skill ranks, since we don't know the DC of the check.

I'm in favor of option II, but I can see it going either way.

[Quartz]

Durkon is still listed as having a whole heap of items; as of his second resurrection in 1150, he no longer has any of them that were on his body when his vampire body escaped Roy at the conclave. That would be the diamond dust, amulet, scrolls, Macebook, armour, and so on.

[D.One]

Durkon is still listed as having a whole heap of items; as of his second resurrection in 1150, he no longer has any of them that were on his body when his vampire body escaped Roy at the conclave. That would be the diamond dust, amulet, scrolls, Macebook, armour, and so on.

I believe we should wait some strips before changing Durkon's equipment, because he'll probably get replacement soon (at least armor and weapon), given they are about to depart for fight Xykon.

[Reboot]

Durkon is still listed as having a whole heap of items; as of his second resurrection in 1150, he no longer has any of them that were on his body when his vampire body escaped Roy at the conclave. That would be the diamond dust, amulet, scrolls, Macebook, armour, and so on.

Well, you say that, but the stuff that was dusted with him appeared to reform too (notably, robes and holy symbol).

[danielxcutter]

Well, you say that, but the stuff that was dusted with him appeared to reform too (notably, robes and holy symbol).

Hmm... I believe that Rich said vampires made with the quick-rise spell don't have a coffin(yet), which is why they just turn to ash straight away. Perhaps that has something to do with that.

It's also possible that Greg gave the Exarch some of his items to use; after all, the main objective is to rig the Council's vote, not smash the Order.

Not sure why he isn't wearing Durkon's armor, though, and full plate has to be fitted for the user. Either:

a) The combat strategy Greg had planned didn't mix well with heavy armor. For one, it has a huge Armor Check Penalty, which interferes with stealth. Also, it's possible that if Greg leveled up to 15th, and not Durkon, he chose another feat that doesn't work with heavy armor, such as Spring Attack. Unless Durkon's Dexterity score was less than 9, Greg would qualify. Besides, he's wouldn't be the only vampire cleric to have taken that feat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html), methinks.

(And seriously, how else do you explain Malack moving up to Durkon, using Quickened Inflict Light Wounds, move away, and THEN use a Flame Strike?)

b) Greg used the armor(and possibly other items of Durkon's) to pay for a Planar Ally, which is currently with Team Exarch.

c) He wanted to distinguish himself from Durkon.

Note that these aren't either exhaustive or mutually exclusive, and neither a) nor c) explain why Durkon hasn't just changed back into his armor right now.

[Peelee]

Not sure why he isn't wearing Durkon's armor, though
This has come up often, but surprisingly so recently.

After he teleported to the Dwarven lands, and because Roy rent his armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html).

[danielxcutter]

This has come up often, but surprisingly so recently.

I believe armor can't be sundered like shields or weapons, and "clothing damage" tends to get fixed by healing anyways.

[Peelee]

I believe armor can't be sundered like shields or weapons
And yet it was.

and "clothing damage" tends to get fixed by healing anyways.
And yet it wasn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1149.html).

[danielxcutter]

And yet it was.

And yet it wasn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1149.html).


You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.

Of course, it's possible Rich is handwaving that, but just putting that out.

[b_jonas]

Damage on nonmagical clothes, such as that robe Durkon is wearing right now, can be fixed by the level 0 cleric spell Mending. Durkon will fix it, but apparently he thinks that he doesn't need to tidy himself up for a marriage proposal. I don't understand dwarven culture.

[zimmerwald1915]

Damage on nonmagical clothes, such as that robe Durkon is wearing right now, can be fixed by the level 0 cleric spell Mending. Durkon will fix it, but apparently he thinks that he doesn't need to tidy himself up for a marriage proposal. I don't understand dwarven culture.
Or he didn't have the spell prepared.

[Caerulea]

Or he didn't have the spell prepared.
Elan could fix it.

[Fyraltari]

Or he didn't have the spell prepared.

That sounds like the most probable explanation, he didn't Raise Minrah either, yet. I guess he will do both after dawn.

[Peelee]

Of course, it's possible Rich is handwaving that, but just putting that out.

Understandable. I just like the quick and easy explanation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=11664910&postcount=11) better, but will totally cop to being wrong if he grabs his old plate.

[D.One]

On the matter of Greg eventually giving Durkon's armor to the Exarch, I believe we have no evidence pointing to that at all. On the contrary, Gontor keeps using (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html) the dark version of the armor we saw him using alive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html).

There's some evidence pointing to the armor was wrecked theory, specially the fact that it was still badly damaged last time we saw Greg wearing it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1019.html). As for why he didn't repair it with something like Make Whole, a 2nd level General Cleric List spell, I'd go with the style choise. Greg wants to differentiate himself from Durkon, to show himself as a "superior" version of Durkon. Since the armor was (in this hypothesis) destroyed, he might have gone through the way of adopting a different outlook too. Maybe the robe was enchanted, who knows?

And no, I don't believe in some convoluted "did that to use some spring attack feat he never used".

D.

[Seward]

Damage on nonmagical clothes, such as that robe Durkon is wearing right now, can be fixed by the level 0 cleric spell Mending. Durkon will fix it, but apparently he thinks that he doesn't need to tidy himself up for a marriage proposal. I don't understand dwarven culture.

Mending normally takes 10 minutes to cast, but I am pretty sure Rich ignores that in his world based on Elan's shenanigans with the spell. (to be fair, many veteran 3.5/pathfinder players/gms don't know that either).

More likely he didn't prep the spell.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

More likely he didn't prep the spell.

Bard casting is spontaneous. They don't need to prep spells.

Grey Wolf

[D.One]

Bard casting is spontaneous. They don't need to prep spells.

Grey Wolf

I think Seward meant Durkon didn't prepare the spell.

Edit: When I first read your post, I read "Bad casting is spontaneous." and cracked a huge laugh :smallbiggrin:

[Jasdoif]

Mending normally takes 10 minutes to castLooks like a standard action to me (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mending.htm).

[Peelee]

Looks like a standard action to me (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mending.htm).

Even 5e (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Mending#content) isn't that harsh.

[D.One]

Is it called Mending or Ressurect Iten? :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[Seward]

Looks like a standard action to me (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mending.htm).

Pathfinder dyslexia. My bad. All my recent "D&D" is Pathfinder, where it takes 10 minutes. OTOH, you can cast cantrips all day without ever using them up in Pathfinder, where Bards and Clerics burn specific spell slots in 3.5 and run out pretty quick. We haven't seen Elan use any cantrips today though, so he probably does have some mendings available.

[danielxcutter]

For the record, the "giving Team Exarch some of Durkon's items" possibility was mostly about the items besides his armor; as full plate has to be refitted for someone else to use it.

[Obscuraphile]

For the record, the "giving Team Exarch some of Durkon's items" possibility was mostly about the items besides his armor; as full plate has to be refitted for someone else to use it.

Well, are we really suggesting that there is not a master armorsmith amongst the dwarves? We are only given a monetary value on refitting plate armor so why couldn't Durkula and host kill and raise a dwarven smith and then get the armor adjusted in the time presented or even repaired?

[Emanick]

Well, are we really suggesting that there is not a master armorsmith amongst the dwarves? We are only given a monetary value on refitting plate armor so why couldn't Durkula and host kill and raise a dwarven smith and then get the armor adjusted in the time presented or even repaired?

Probably because it's extremely unlikely that a smith would have the time to alter the armor, and because it would be risky to move around the dwarven city in search of a smith for too long, lest they arouse the attention of some higher-level characters.

That said, magical full plate may adjust to fit a new owner. I can't find a clear ruling on the matter. So if the armor was still suitable for wearing, Gontor might be able to make use of it.

[Obscuraphile]

Probably because it's extremely unlikely that a smith would have the time to alter the armor, and because it would be risky to move around the dwarven city in search of a smith for too long, lest they arouse the attention of some higher-level characters.

That said, magical full plate may adjust to fit a new owner. I can't find a clear ruling on the matter. So if the armor was still suitable for wearing, Gontor might be able to make use of it.

It's not exactly like team vamp has been subtle. The church was literally under siege when the Order arrived, and we haven't seen a single living dwarf, except for Hylga, since we entered the tunnels.

[D.One]

Have we ever determined how Elan identified the Wand of Cure Moderate Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html)?

There seems to be no label on it. We might deduce, from Haley's speech and from the little cross in the top, that it was a healing device, but how did he identify the specific spell?

As far as I can remember, identiying a magic iten is a 50+caster level Spellcraft check.

[Quartz]

Is #1151 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html) sufficient evidence to give Durkon a rank or two in Perform: Storytelling or Craft: Narrative?

[D.One]

Is #1151 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html) sufficient evidence to give Durkon a rank or two in Perform: Storytelling or Craft: Narrative?

Probably not, since both skills can be used untrained, and we have no evidence of the DCs involved. Besides that, the skill he might have used with Greg could have been Diplomacy.

[Emanick]

It's not exactly like team vamp has been subtle. The church was literally under siege when the Order arrived, and we haven't seen a single living dwarf, except for Hylga, since we entered the tunnels.

They only attacked specific areas, though. The more places they explored, the more likely it is that they would run into significant obstacles.

[Resileaf]

They only attacked specific areas, though. The more places they explored, the more likely it is that they would run into significant obstacles.

For instance, they purposely attacked after the stronger clerics were home to sleep. They most likely do not intend to risk waking up said clerics who would definitely be significant obstacles.

[Seward]

Have we ever determined how Elan identified the Wand of Cure Moderate Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html)?

There seems to be no label on it. We might deduce, from Haley's speech and from the little cross in the top, that it was a healing device, but how did he identify the specific spell?

As far as I can remember, identiying a magic iten is a 50+caster level Spellcraft check.

Bardic knowledge? Maybe he understands the symbolism of how the wand is constructed. Or maybe it's cultural - cure wands are all designed to look the same way if they're made by gnomes.

Or he identified it by using UMD on it until it went off :)

Or the shopkeeper told them "don't forget a cure moderate wand. You might need to heal up between battles."

[Jasdoif]

Or maybe it's cultural - cure wands are all designed to look the same way if they're made by gnomes.I was kind of assuming OotS-world had a readily-understandable universal multiversal system for spell identification; that a spell's verbal component happening to be the spell's name in Common wasn't actually happenstance, but the natural result of some core assumption in the setting.

[Obscuraphile]

For instance, they purposely attacked after the stronger clerics were home to sleep. They most likely do not intend to risk waking up said clerics who would definitely be significant obstacles.

Well I agree they don't want to face all the senior clerics together. But if they knew the church's schedule then they might know where the staff lives. A little bat/gaseous form and bam, ambushed, dead clerics. They probably don't even have combat spells prepared, although healing spells would still be useful in this scenario.

[Resileaf]

Well I agree they don't want to face all the senior clerics together. But if they knew the church's schedule then they might know where the staff lives. A little bat/gaseous form and bam, ambushed, dead clerics. They probably don't even have combat spells prepared, although healing spells would still be useful in this scenario.

It remains a risk. You just need one of those clerics to fight back his attacker and the entire town will go down on the vampires along with whatever support they can get from outside. The vampires' greatest weapon in this situation is secrecy, because they need the dwarves to not know what's about to happen until the very last second when they can dominate the council of elders. If the alert is raised before the meeting takes place, their plan is ruined.

Also the schedule was familiar to Durkon, but he doesn't know all the priests, especially since he's been gone for a while.

[Obscuraphile]

It remains a risk. You just need one of those clerics to fight back his attacker and the entire town will go down on the vampires along with whatever support they can get from outside. The vampires' greatest weapon in this situation is secrecy, because they need the dwarves to not know what's about to happen until the very last second when they can dominate the council of elders. If the alert is raised before the meeting takes place, their plan is ruined.

Also the schedule was familiar to Durkon, but he doesn't know all the priests, especially since he's been gone for a while.

Of course it's a risk. But, send even a low level vampire, have them coup de grace the sleeping cleric, and then, even if they survive they are fighting with four negative levels. Its even more devastating if you send the vampires out in pairs. One issue though, do we know if OoTS vampires need invitations to enter a home?

Edit: Durkon knowing the location of the senior cleric's homes becomes irrelevant the moment he vamps a current temple staffer.

[Emanick]

Of course it's a risk. But, send even a low level vampire, have them coup de grace the sleeping cleric, and then, even if they survive they are fighting with four negative levels. Its even more devastating if you send the vampires out in pairs. One issue though, do we know if OoTS vampires need invitations to enter a home?

Edit: Durkon knowing the location of the senior cleric's homes becomes irrelevant the moment he vamps a current temple staffer.

It just seems like a risk the vampires wouldn't necessarily need to take. Why would they go out of their way to kill a bunch of people who weren't going to interfere in their plan anyway, and who could raise the alarm if they discovered the intrusion? If any of the senior clerics happen to be awake, for instance (and clerics have good Wisdom scores, so they're more likely to hear and/or see intruders than most characters), s/he might easily prove more than a match for the low level vampire, and once the cleric survives the attack, s/he is capable of remotely warning others about the fact that vampires may be afoot.

We also don't even know if the average temple staffer knows where his or her bosses live. I wouldn't count on it. Although I suppose Macebook might help with that.

[Obscuraphile]

Why would they go out of their way to kill a bunch of people who weren't going to interfere in their plan anyway

You mean the people who with a 1st level spell could prevent the vampires from forcing the vote? A first level spell that has a fairly high chance of being on any given cleric's prepared list for a given day. I find it pretty likely that if some sort of conclave was called then some of the senior clerics would be expected or at least allowed to attend.

[Emanick]

You mean the people who with a 1st level spell could prevent the vampires from forcing the vote? A first level spell that has a fairly high chance of being on any given cleric's prepared list for a given day. I find it pretty likely that if some sort of conclave was called then some of the senior clerics would be expected or at least allowed to attend.

Well, since they didn't kill every priest in the city, I'm pretty sure Durkon*'s plan doesn't rely on not having any priests around that can cast 1st level spells.

That said, we don't know what his plan is was yet, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Obscuraphile]

Well, since they didn't kill every priest in the city, I'm pretty sure Durkon*'s plan doesn't rely on not having any priests around that can cast 1st level spells.

That said, we don't know what his plan is was yet, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Well it doesn't make sense for every priest in the city to be invited to an important inter-clan meeting.

While I don't really see this happening in OoTS because it would interfere with the story, I have played in and run worlds where formal meetings between important nobles/officials are attended by priests who cast Magic Circle Against (Insert Appropriate Alignment Here) upon themselves, and then stand nearby, specifically to prevent either attending party or any third party from performing mind manipulating shenanigans. This seems like it would be doubly appropriate if the parties in question were casting important votes instead of just communicating.

[Emanick]

Well it doesn't make sense for every priest in the city to be invited to an important inter-clan meeting.

While I don't really see this happening in OoTS because it would interfere with the story, I have played in and run worlds where formal meetings between important nobles/officials are attended by priests who cast Magic Circle Against (Insert Appropriate Alignment Here) upon themselves, and then stand nearby, specifically to prevent either attending party or any third party from performing mind manipulating shenanigans. This seems like it would be doubly appropriate if the parties in question were casting important votes instead of just communicating.

You're right, not every priest in the city would be invited - but if the ones who were invited were found murdered, it seems likely that others would be recruited to replace them. You'd have to kill every priest in the city to stop that from happening.

It certainly seems rational for the dwarves to take steps to prevent interference with the vote. That said, we know the Ex-Exarch has a plan, and it probably involves circumventing whatever anti-interference protocols exist. Since his preparations didn't involve killing every priest in the city, or even the senior priests, presumably that was unnecessary.

[Obscuraphile]

You're right, not every priest in the city would be invited - but if the ones who were invited were found murdered, it seems likely that others would be recruited to replace them. You'd have to kill every priest in the city to stop that from happening.

You could vamp them or dominate them instead of having to kill them. And if my boss calls in sick I'm not expected to take over their job for them so I don't see why we would just keep going down the list of clerics until we found a live one, down to the very last cleric in the city.

The high priest of Thor was invited to the God's Moot not just because they happened to be the highest level cleric available but also because they had seniority in the church. If you bump off the guy in charge that doesn't mean his immediate underling gets all of his responsibilities or that people will go to him with problems that his boss would have solved. Unless of course the church in question happens to be a frontarchy.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Umm, no? Part of the underling's job description is taking over when the boss goes down. Crown Prince becomes King. Vice President becomes President.

[Obscuraphile]

Umm, no? Part of the underling's job description is taking over when the boss goes down. Crown Prince becomes King. Vice President becomes President.

When there is a clear and pre-established line of succession. Pope dies the cardinals have to elect a new one. Something tells me the church of Thor doesn't have a protocol for all the senior clergy were murdered, little Susie Sandstone who took her vows last week is now Mother Superior.

[Emanick]

When there is a clear and pre-established line of succession. Pope dies the cardinals have to elect a new one. Something tells me the church of Thor doesn't have a protocol for all the senior clergy were murdered, little Susie Sandstone who took her vows last week is now Mother Superior.

Well, we know that's exactly how the church of The Dark One works.

Moreover, I seriously doubt that the dwarven elders' response to finding that all of the senior clergy were murdered would be "oh well, better be laxer with security." No, they'll tighten security to the absolute best of their ability. That would definitely involve bringing in as many backup clerics as possible, and might also include a number of other countermeasures, such as drafting arcane spellcasters like bards for extra security (or wizards/sorcerers, if there are any around).

[danielxcutter]

Well, we know that's exactly how the church of The Dark One works.

Moreover, I seriously doubt that the dwarven elders' response to finding that all of the senior clergy were murdered would be "oh well, better be laxer with security." No, they'll tighten security to the absolute best of their ability. That would definitely involve bringing in as many backup clerics as possible, and might also include a number of other countermeasures, such as drafting arcane spellcasters like bards for extra security (or wizards/sorcerers, if there are any around).

Dwarven arcanists tend to be rare, unless the OotSverse is significantly different in that aspect. There is Squeaky and his apprentice(Jenna, I think?), who are bards - even less likely than dwarf wizards, due to the racial -2 Charisma penalty - and there's always the possibilities of non-dwarf arcanists, either allies or mercenaries.

Just nitpicking about that part; everything else sounds solid(hurhurhur) enough to me.

[Obscuraphile]

Moreover, I seriously doubt that the dwarven elders' response to finding that all of the senior clergy were murdered would be "oh well, better be laxer with security." No, they'll tighten security to the absolute best of their ability. That would definitely involve bringing in as many backup clerics as possible, and might also include a number of other countermeasures, such as drafting arcane spellcasters like bards for extra security (or wizards/sorcerers, if there are any around).

So allowing your enemies strongest players to stay in the game is safer than forcing them to rely on their second string? And once again, they don't have to stay dead. These are vampires we're talking about. They don't even have to die in the first place, a few negative levels and the clerics have a major penalty to a save that leaves them dominated for the better part of two weeks. The idea that all of these vampires can operate completely unseen, while manipulating a council of clans, without attracting the attention of any high level clerics seems really silly, and given how we've seen Hel and Durkula planning it seems even sillier that they aren't going to do something about it.

[D.One]

I believe the Exarch's plan will rely more on rules lawering than on plain use of powers. Sure, there would probably be dominate involved, since they already stated the intention to use it, but Greg's last instructions were to study the rules of the meeting and to do some preparations on the meeting chamber.

I'd fully expect such important meeting to have protocols to avoid mind control, but maybe there are convoluted rules that end up making then accept a blatant mind control just for the sake of the rules. That said, a twist might be a dwarf going all "Sc**w this, DIE, mindcontrolling bloodsucker!", since their rules aren't god-enforced rules, but mortal made ones. Remember that, in the Godsmoot, the purpose of all the rules is to prevent disputes escalating into a Snarl. The Council of Elders probably follows rules based on tradition and such, and, while I doesn't discard the power of such rules, some dwarves with more common sense might be inclined to go against that if the cheating becomes blatant.

[Emanick]

So allowing your enemies strongest players to stay in the game is safer than forcing them to rely on their second string? And once again, they don't have to stay dead. These are vampires we're talking about. They don't even have to die in the first place, a few negative levels and the clerics have a major penalty to a save that leaves them dominated for the better part of two weeks. The idea that all of these vampires can operate completely unseen, while manipulating a council of clans, without attracting the attention of any high level clerics seems really silly, and given how we've seen Hel and Durkula planning it seems even sillier that they aren't going to do something about it.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. Are you arguing that it would have been better for Durkon* to target the higher-level clerics by stealth, and that he made a mistake by not doing it? Or that the Ex-Exarch is still planning on doing that? Or something else? Because clearly, their plan did not involve taking out the senior clerics ahead of time, and yet Durkon is still concerned that it will work, even without the presence of the vampire team's deceased leader.

In any case, the greatest threat to the success of Hel's mission isn't the presence of clerics at the ceremony, it's discovery. If the dwarven elders find out that the vampires are trying to hijack the vote, it's probably Game Over. Hence the danger of launching a bunch of strikes against high-level clerics with low-level vampires. Dominating them ahead of time isn't necessarily going to help, because of the swirly-eyes - that probably has to happen at the last moment. Killing them will just lead to other clerics being brought in to replace them, and will tell the dwarves that something has gone wrong. Weakening them without killing or dominating them will be even worse, as they'll be able to report back and tell the other dwarves that they were attacked by some sort of undead monster, and the guard on the council will be strengthened.

On the other hand, the vampires probably can operate unseen. They can turn into mist, bats, etc., and they have access to lots of clerical magic. Vampires are amazingly great at stealth. It makes a lot more sense for them to operate in the shadows, and to strike with overwhelming force while their enemies' guard is still down, than it does to play their hand too soon and risk letting their enemies figure out what's going on.

[Resileaf]

I mean, attacking the Temple of Thor wasn't even necessary. Greg only did that because he wanted a climatic location to fight Roy and hurt Durkon. He also wanted thralls, yes, but he could have gotten them anywhere else in the city.

[Peelee]

I mean, attacking the Temple of Thor wasn't even necessary. Greg only did that because he wanted a climatic location to fight Roy and hurt Durkon. He also wanted thralls, yes, but he could have gotten them anywhere else in the city.

By doing it all with clerics, he did seem to be going for a holy army. Maybe he just liked being thematic.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, he specifically went after Thorian clergy. Remember, at core he was Durkon's worst day personified, and Thorian clergy are the ones responsible for that. An element of payback was in play.

[Peelee]

Well, he specifically went after Thorian clergy. Remember, at core he was Durkon's worst day personified, and Thorian clergy are the ones responsible for that. An element of payback was in play.

Conversely, Durkon would know the most about the Thorish temples and how they work, especially in his homeland, so it could easily have been simply convenient.

[Fyraltari]

By doing it all with clerics, he did seem to be going for a holy army. Maybe he just liked being thematic.


Well, he specifically went after Thorian clergy. Remember, at core he was Durkon's worst day personified, and Thorian clergy are the ones responsible for that. An element of payback was in play.


Conversely, Durkon would know the most about the Thorish temples and how they work, especially in his homeland, so it could easily have been simply convenient.
I can totally be both. It was also convienient in that vampire Clerics have a better chance to follow Hel's plan than, say, vampire Fighters.

[D.One]

Well, he specifically went after Thorian clergy. Remember, at core he was Durkon's worst day personified, and Thorian clergy are the ones responsible for that. An element of payback was in play.

To add to this, remember that Greg said that he was very much looking foward to finishing their backup plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html).

[D.One]

We haven't brought this here yet, but #1152 confirms that Durkon's Ressurection happened before dawn (and it was already established that it had happened after dusk), so it's safe to assume Hylgia didn't refresh her spells to cast it.

That means she has so far cast 3 7th level spells in a row, none of which are domain spells. For that, she needs at least 14th level of Cleric and WIS 24+, or 15th level of Cleric and the use of a 8th level slot to cast one of those spells.

[CriticalFailure]

Is it possible Hilgya could have a pearl of power or a divine version of a ring of wizardry (is this a thing? It seems like it should be? What about home brew?) or something else? She is rich as.

Not that I find her being 15th level unbelievable or anything.

[Peelee]

Is it possible Hilgya could have a pearl of power or a divine version of a ring of wizardry (is this a thing? It seems like it should be? What about home brew?) or something else? She is rich as.

Not that I find her being 15th level unbelievable or anything.

Sure, it's possible. But it's useless to speculate on unless any indication is given in comic.

[D.One]

Is it possible Hilgya could have a pearl of power or a divine version of a ring of wizardry (is this a thing? It seems like it should be? What about home brew?) or something else? She is rich as.

Not that I find her being 15th level unbelievable or anything.

Her being 14th level, minimum, is almost certain. For a Cleric of that level, a WIS 24 isn't that hard to get, with a high starting value (it's her primary spellcasting stat, after all), improvements at 4th, 8th and 12th levels, and a periapt that can give up to +6 (I'm thinking non-epic here).

That said, it's also likely that she was 15th level, same as Durkon, before his two deaths.

[CriticalFailure]

Yeah if I were a spellcaster of dubious morals who had just come into a lot of money very quickly a +6 headband to my primary casting stat would be my first shopping trip.

Is it only headbands? That’s the only thing I’ve seen for mental stats but I haven’t played that much and only pathfinder. Not that it matters lol

[Resileaf]

Yeah if I were a spellcaster of dubious morals who had just come into a lot of money very quickly a +6 headband to my primary casting stat would be my first shopping trip.

Is it only headbands? That’s the only thing I’ve seen for mental stats but I haven’t played that much and only pathfinder. Not that it matters lol

3.x has different slots for every stats. Belt for strength, gloves for dex, headband for int, etc.

[hamishspence]

Headbands are the usual Int booster. Cloaks are the usual Charisma booster. Periapts (a kind of amulet) are the usual Wis booster.

[CriticalFailure]

Oh that’s neat. Are there them no stat bonus combining items?

[Resileaf]

Nope, if you want to stack stat bonuses, you have to wear the entire set of items.

[Peelee]

Same type bonuses typically don't stack, as well.

[D.One]

Oh that’s neat. Are there them no stat bonus combining items?

Only case I know of is Hammer of Thunderbolts + Belt of Giant Strength + Gauntlets of Ogre Power:


Hammer of Thunderbolts: [...] if the wielder wears a belt of giant Strength and gauntlets of ogre power and he knows that the hammer is a hammer of thunderbolts (not just a +3 warhammer), the weapon can be used to full effect: It gains a total +5 enhancement bonus, allows all belt and gauntlet bonuses to stack (only when using this weapon), and [...]

[Rogar Demonblud]

And those are a legacy item that weren't reformatted.


Is it possible Hilgya could have a pearl of power or a divine version of a ring of wizardry?

Those both cap out at 4th.

[D.One]

Those both cap out at 4th.

Not really. Pearls of power go all the way up to 9th level slots, non-epic. The main problem is indeed that we have no indication of the presence of such itens, and "hidden magic item" seens like a bit of a poor explanation.

[Obscuraphile]

Oh that’s neat. Are there them no stat bonus combining items?


Nope, if you want to stack stat bonuses, you have to wear the entire set of items.

Well the Magic Item Compendium gives very clear rules for combining bonuses on a single item or making something like boots of strength or a belt of wisdom.

[zimmerwald1915]

To say nothing of how Elan has a Cha-boosting belt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) even though that bonus typically goes on cloaks.

[zimmerwald1915]

Those both cap out at 4th.
Pearls of power do not cap at 4th, they can go all the way up to 9th. However, it would only allow her to cast the same prepared one additional time per pearl. Perhaps flame strike.

Rings of Wizardry cap out at 4th-level spells.

[Ephemera]

I mean, are we technically completely sure she didn’t cast resurrection from a scroll?

I’m of the school that in cases like this we should assume no extraordinary magic items involved if we have no indication thereof so we can conclude that Hilgya has the ability to cast 3 7th level spells in a day...

[Jasdoif]

I mean, are we technically completely sure she didn’t cast resurrection from a scroll?The absence of a scroll while she was casting it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1149.html) is a complicating factor, there.

[Obscuraphile]

The absence of a scroll while she was casting it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1149.html) is a complicating factor, there.

Also doesn't the presence of the diamond eliminate the possibility completely? A scroll would mean that the diamond was provided at the time of scribing

[Chronos]

One of the splatbooks also has a Belt of Magnificence, that gives a bonus to all six stats. It's usually not regarded as a very good deal, though, since it costs about as much as five of the individual items combined, and very few characters have use for all six stats.

[Rogar Demonblud]

True, but anyone subject to MAD should have it. The extra boosts are just gravy.

[Ephemera]

Also doesn't the presence of the diamond eliminate the possibility completely? A scroll would mean that the diamond was provided at the time of scribing

That will teach me to make dumb jokes without double checking the panels in question.

That said, pfft, plainly she’s casting from a scroll that’s off-panel and just saying “resurrection” because that’s how the scroll works. The diamonds in her hand are just a red herring because she’s umm, trying to fool the order. And they disappear because she has ranks in sleight of hand. Why? I have no idea.

[Zenzis]

We haven't brought this here yet, but #1152 confirms that Durkon's Ressurection happened before dawn (and it was already established that it had happened after dusk), so it's safe to assume Hylgia didn't refresh her spells to cast it.

That means she has so far cast 3 7th level spells in a row, none of which are domain spells. For that, she needs at least 14th level of Cleric and WIS 24+, or 15th level of Cleric and the use of a 8th level slot to cast one of those spells.


She casts raise dead not resurrection the second time? I'm probably missing something obvious its pretty late.

Edit: Oh 2 empowered flame strikes + 1 Resurrection. Easy metamagic maybe?

[D.One]

She casts raise dead not resurrection the second time? I'm probably missing something obvious its pretty late.

Edit: Oh 2 empowered flame strikes + 1 Resurrection. Easy metamagic maybe?

Empowered Flame Strike, Resurrection and Greater Scrying.

There's Improved Metamagic from Epic, but no, because Epic.

There's Practical Metamagic, but it's restricted to spontaneous casters with dragonblood subtype, which she's not.

There's, however, Divine Metamagic, which she could be using, but we have no other evidence of it, and her being a 14th+ level Cleric with WIS 24+ is quite reasonable and simple.

[danielxcutter]

Empowered Flame Strike, Resurrection and Greater Scrying.

There's Improved Metamagic from Epic, but no, because Epic.

There's Practical Metamagic, but it's restricted to spontaneous casters with dragonblood subtype, which she's not.

There's, however, Divine Metamagic, which she could be using, but we have no other evidence of it, and her being a 14th+ level Cleric with WIS 24+ is quite reasonable and simple.

She uses Empowered Flame Strike once before getting dominated, and once after, which KOs Roy and kills Minrah, I think.

[b_jonas]

As for raising ability scores, the MitD and Xykon points out in #195 that it's possible to raise your ability scores slotlessly, with certain legendary magical books (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) called Tome of Clear Thought, Tome of Leadership and Influence, Tome of Understanding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#tomeofClearThought), Manual of Bodily Health, Manual of Gainful Exercise, Manual of Quickness of Action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#manualofBodilyHealth). You can also skip the magic items and use the Wish spell to get or give an inherent bonus directly.

Also, aren't there supposed to be wizard's hats that give an intelligence bonus?

[danielxcutter]

As for raising ability scores, the MitD and Xykon points out in #195 that it's possible to raise your ability scores slotlessly, with certain legendary magical books (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) called Tome of Clear Thought, Tome of Leadership and Influence, Tome of Understanding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#tomeofClearThought), Manual of Bodily Health, Manual of Gainful Exercise, Manual of Quickness of Action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#manualofBodilyHealth). You can also skip the magic items and use the Wish spell to get or give an inherent bonus directly.

Also, aren't there supposed to be wizard's hats that give an intelligence bonus?

You mean Headbands of Intellect?

[D.One]

She uses Empowered Flame Strike once before getting dominated, and once after, which KOs Roy and kills Minrah, I think.

True. So, there are 4 7th level spells cast.

We don't have any indication of magic itens: no scrolls, no pearl of power, no metamagic rod.

We know one of her domains is Fire (thanks to rebuking fire creatures) and the other is Chaos (thanks to casting Chaos Hammer), so none of these 7th level spells was a domain spell (which means she still has one 7th level domain spell uncast).

That brings us to some possible situations:

1) Hylgia is Cleric 14 and has a WIS of 32+, in order to gain 2 extra 7th level slots. That's highly unlikely, mostly because, non-epic, it would require a stelar combination of bonuses to be achieved (Starting WIS 18 + 3 points of ability increase at level 14 + an item that gave her +6WIS + a +5 inherent WIS from a Tome of Understanding). Possible, but unlikely, I think.

2) Hylgia is Cleric 15 and has a WIS of 24+ and has used her 8th level spell slot to cast a 7th level spell. As of now, this is my favorite theory. Her being Cleric 15 is consistent with what we know of Durkon's level before dying twice, WIS 24 is reasonably easy to achieve for a cleric of her level, and using an 8th level slot for any of the spells cast doesn't seem ludicrous or out of character.

3) Hylgia is Cleric 16 and has a WIS of 24+. This theory is also quite likely to be true, and wouldn't require her to use 8th level slots for casting 7th level spells. The only reasons I still like theory (2) better is because we haven't seen her cast any 8th level spells yet and because I prefer to assume the minimum level needed in a situation (unless the minimum level possible requires other unlikely things, like theory (1)).

4) Hylgia is Cleric 14 and has a WIS of 24+ and has Sudden Empower, which she used in one of her Flame Strikes. This one is also easy to achieve, and can very well be right. The reason I prefer (2) or (3) is only to keep things in SRD.

[b_jonas]

You mean Headbands of Intellect? Ah right, headbands and hats are in the same slot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemsOnTheBody). So those still fit the rules you mention above. (I still don't understand how greaves work in those set of rules.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

They're boots/legwear.

[understatement]

Completely unrelated question, but based on Miron's Horrid Wilting spell, why is he sorcerer 16+ or wizard 15+? HW is an 8th level spell for both sorcerer and wizard, so shouldn't his minimum be sorcerer 15+?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Completely unrelated question, but based on Miron's Horrid Wilting spell, why is he sorcerer 16+ or wizard 15+? HW is an 8th level spell for both sorcerer and wizard, so shouldn't his minimum be sorcerer 15+?

Sorcerer's gain spells slower than a Wizard. Wizard's get access to spell level X at level (X*2)-1, while Sorcerer's get it at level X*2.

[Jasdoif]

That said, pfft, plainly she’s casting from a scroll that’s off-panel and just saying “resurrection” because that’s how the scroll works. The diamonds in her hand are just a red herring because she’s umm, trying to fool the order. And they disappear because she has ranks in sleight of hand. Why? I have no idea.The "scroll" being one of those gemstone alternate-form-of-scrolls from Complete Arcane seems more likely. Though not as likely as getting flame strike in a domain slot via some form of alternate Fire domain spell list for dwarves; because fire seeds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireSeeds.htm) requires either acorns or holly berries, which are both tree products. (Which is itself far less likely than Hilgya simply casting resurrection normally, but where's the fun in that?)

[Seward]

2) Hylgia is Cleric 15 and has a WIS of 24+ and has used her 8th level spell slot to cast a 7th level spell. As of now, this is my favorite theory. Her being Cleric 15 is consistent with what we know of Durkon's level before dying twice, WIS 24 is reasonably easy to achieve for a cleric of her level, and using an 8th level slot for any of the spells cast doesn't seem ludicrous or out of character.



In actual play, high level prep casters often leave a high level spell slot or two open, especially clerics, precisely for stuff that can't be cast in combat anyway (break enchantment, raise dead, rez) because of long casting times. You don't know which you'll need, and you have enough spell slots that if you blow your combat stack and are worried about having enough juice for a later fight you can always spend 15 minutes of downtime to fill in that high level slot with more boom. Or right before you rest for some long running buff that'll be there for you if you're jumped while sleeping (or extended hour/level spells that last 32 hours like magic vestment, to save a slot for next day)

So I find this option pretty plausible.

[Linneris]

I was kind of assuming OotS-world had a readily-understandable universal multiversal system for spell identification; that a spell's verbal component happening to be the spell's name in Common wasn't actually happenstance, but the natural result of some core assumption in the setting.

Not necessarily in Common. It can be any language, so long as it's the name of the spell in that language; this is how V cast spells with verbal components while polymorphed. As I recall, The Giant posted something along these lines, but I can't find the post.

[Quartz]

Oh that’s neat. Are there them no stat bonus combining items?

There's the Belt of Heroism that gives a bonus to all stats. And different types stack, so you could have a headband that gives a +6 Enhancement bonus and +6 Insight Bonus and +6 Luck Bonus and +6 XYZ Bonus.

[danielxcutter]

There's the Belt of Heroism that gives a bonus to all stats. And different types stack, so you could have a headband that gives a +6 Enhancement bonus and +6 Insight Bonus and +6 Luck Bonus and +6 XYZ Bonus.

I've never heard of a Belt of Heroism and Google isn't helping either. Do you mean the Belt of Magnificence?

[b_jonas]

Linneris: on incantations for spells, the relevant post by the Giant is

In OOTS land, you just need to be able to speak the name of the spell to count as a verbal component. It doesn't matter what language that name is in. V is speaking Lizardese, but he can still say "Feather Fall". He does not know the Silent Spell feat.
and you can find a link to that in the banana's index (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20461920).

-----
Update:

We're almost to page 50. Do we have a title for the next thread group? For thread title, I say "Class and Level Geekery 16: Infinite Discussion"

[D.One]

In actual play, high level prep casters often leave a high level spell slot or two open, especially clerics, precisely for stuff that can't be cast in combat anyway (break enchantment, raise dead, rez) because of long casting times. You don't know which you'll need, and you have enough spell slots that if you blow your combat stack and are worried about having enough juice for a later fight you can always spend 15 minutes of downtime to fill in that high level slot with more boom. Or right before you rest for some long running buff that'll be there for you if you're jumped while sleeping (or extended hour/level spells that last 32 hours like magic vestment, to save a slot for next day)

So I find this option pretty plausible.

Yeah, I think that too. Resurrection is not a spell one need to carry prepared all the time, because it can't be used in combat and because it can bring back someone who died 10 years/caster level before the casting. There's no immediate urgency. Leaving a few slots open, some of them high level enough for a resurrection, or a regenerate, seems a reasonable move.

[EmperorSarda]

We're almost to page 50. Do we have a title for the next thread group?

[D.One]

We're almost to page 50. Do we have a title for the next thread group?

There was the Kazoo option, but I think it lost momentum.

I mantain my suggestion for when (if) we reach iteration XXI - Epic Geekery.

As for XVI, I have no suggestions for now.

[zimmerwald1915]

We could always reuse an old idea and riff on getting a fourth iterative attack.

[Quartz]

I've never heard of a Belt of Heroism and Google isn't helping either. Do you mean the Belt of Magnificence?

It gives an Enhancement bonus of +2, +4, or +6 in all stats

[Quartz]

We're almost to page 50. Do we have a title for the next thread group?

Riffing on the iterative idea, how about 'Because we keep on at it'?

[D.One]

Riffing on the iterative idea, how about 'Because we keep on at it'?

I thought of a suggestion,but don't know if it really makes sense. Here in Brazil, the legal age for geting a driver's license is 18, but I've heard that some other places (including some US States) adopt the age of 16 for that. It that's right, my suggestion is:

Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

On the other hand, at 16 here in Brazil, someone can vote. Again, I don't know how does it work elsewhere, but my other suggestion is:

Class and Level Geekery XVI - Now We Can Vote: Let the Geeksmoot Begin

[Zenzis]

Empowered Flame Strike, Resurrection and Greater Scrying.

There's Improved Metamagic from Epic, but no, because Epic.

There's Practical Metamagic, but it's restricted to spontaneous casters with dragonblood subtype, which she's not.

There's, however, Divine Metamagic, which she could be using, but we have no other evidence of it, and her being a 14th+ level Cleric with WIS 24+ is quite reasonable and simple.


Ah yeah I forgot about greater scrying, so yeah 4. I was actually referring to "Easy Metamagic" from dragon mag.

[Emanick]

I thought of a suggestion,but don't know if it really makes sense. Here in Brazil, the legal age for geting a driver's license is 18, but I've heard that some other places (inluding some US States) adopt the age of 16 for that. It that's right, my suggestion is:

Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

On the other hand, at 16 here in Brazil, someone can vote. Again, I don't know how does it work elsewhere, but my other suggestion is:

Class and Level Geekery XVI - Now We Can Vote: Let the Geeksmoot Begin

I like Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot a lot. It gets my vote.

The latter title wouldn’t work as well, I think, since most countries don’t let 16-year-olds vote (there are some other exceptions, though, like Scotland).

[Ephemera]

Did the kazoo option lose steam (insert wind instrument joke here) or did we just drop it because it wasn't time yet?

"Because it's vitally important to know what perform skill you use for a kazoo" is probably too many characters?

16 is the age where you can drive in most US states. Also the age of consent (for sex) in many, although I'm not sure we want to go there.

Personally I'm against re-using a joke about iterative attacks if we can do something new and/or more specific to the thread. While I guess that kazoo is like pineapple in that it was something we discussed (although for longer than we discussed the actual damage of a thrown pineapple...), I still think it's a fresh joke.

[Doug Lampert]

I thought of a suggestion,but don't know if it really makes sense. Here in Brazil, the legal age for geting a driver's license is 18, but I've heard that some other places (inluding some US States) adopt the age of 16 for that. It that's right, my suggestion is:

Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

On the other hand, at 16 here in Brazil, someone can vote. Again, I don't know how does it work elsewhere, but my other suggestion is:

Class and Level Geekery XVI - Now We Can Vote: Let the Geeksmoot Begin

Most of the US it's 16 to drive, a few locations (New York City) have higher driving ages.

In all US states the voting age is 18, and constitutionally it can't be higher, but in theory a US state could grant the vote at a younger age if it wanted to.

I'll go with Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot based on US law being the most applicable to a comic published from a US location for a US heavy audience.

[Peelee]

Did the kazoo option lose steam (insert wind instrument joke here) or did we just drop it because it wasn't time yet?

I choose to believe the latter. The Kazoo train ain't stopped yet!

[D.One]

The Kazoo train ain't stopped yet!

Yeah, we can still hear its whistle. :smallbiggrin: (blame Ephemera, who asked for such joke)

[CriticalFailure]

Knowledge (Arcomic) or Knowledge (Dorkana)?

[Rogar Demonblud]

For thread title, I say "Class and Level Geekery 16: Infinite Discussion"

This has my vote as well.

[CriticalFailure]

These Characters May Now Drive the plot is the best

[D.One]

Knowledge (Arcomic) or Knowledge (Dorkana)?

I believe do a great deal of Knowledge (RAW) and Knowledge (Obscure Splatbooks) here... :smallbiggrin:

[Jasdoif]

We could always reuse an old idea and riff on getting a fourth iterative attack.Class and Level Geekery XVI: -15 and Still Hitting ?

[zimmerwald1915]

Class and Level Geekery XVI: -15 and Still Hitting ?
I like it. Have a vote.

[Quartz]

I like it. Have a vote.

'Class and Level Geekery XVI: -15 and Still Hitting' is not my cup of tea. I prefer the driving one to this and my own suggestion to both.

[Obscuraphile]

I too feel that the kazoo is still alive and well. However I also think that I might be biased in this.


Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

If the kazoo is deemed to be out of the running this would be my second choice.

[danielxcutter]

My memory's a bit fuzzy on the kazoo one, but I like "These Characters May Drive The Plot". Looks like we're heading for that.

[Peelee]

My memory's a bit fuzzy on the kazoo one, but I like "These Characters May Drive The Plot". Looks like we're heading for that.


Class and Level Geekery XVI - Enough With the Kazoo Already?

If my stupid joke becomes a thread title, I will be highly amused. Go stupid joke go!

[CriticalFailure]

That implies the discussion on whether you can really have ranks in perform (kazoo) has been shut.

[Peelee]

That implies the discussion on whether you can really have ranks in perform (kazoo) has been shut.

It does not, and only becomes more relevant if the kazoo issue is brought up again.

[zimmerwald1915]

'Class and Level Geekery XVI: -15 and Still Hitting' is not my cup of tea. I prefer the driving one to this and my own suggestion to both.
I don't go out of my way to pooh-pooh your tastes :smallannoyed:

[b_jonas]

We've been talking about the kazoo for five pages. We've been talking about infinite deflection for over five threads now. It comes up predictably in every thread. It was in Tarquin's statblock at one point. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?282328-Class-and-Level-Geekery-X-deals-1d6-thread-damage&p=16262355&highlight=infinite+deflection#post16262355) It should be in a FAQ block near the start of the threads these days. I don't like when a thread title always reflects something that was interesting only for a few days around the creation of the new thread. The thread title should be something that we'll still find relevant fortyfive pages later.

[Ephemera]

We've been talking about the kazoo for five pages. We've been talking about infinite deflection for over five threads now. It comes up predictably in every thread. It was in Tarquin's statblock at one point. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?282328-Class-and-Level-Geekery-X-deals-1d6-thread-damage&p=16262355&highlight=infinite+deflection#post16262355) It should be in a FAQ block near the start of the threads these days. I don't like when a thread title always reflects something that was interesting only for a few days around the creation of the new thread. The thread title should be something that we'll still find relevant fortyfive pages later.

True...but 1. In the grand scheme of things, thread titles are transient and 2. Infinite deflection isn’t funny.

I’m pretty confident that I’m in the majority here when I say there’s way more support for thread titles that make light of what we’re doing than ones that take things too seriously, hence the pineapples, geek references, and suggestions about kazoos.

At some point we’ll wind up with “we argued about the thread title for 4 pages and this is all we could come up with.” In the meantime I like kazoos personally, it carries just the right touch of absurdity while also being a real thing that we actually argued about. I’d still like some variant on “it’s critical we determine the right skill for kazoo playing” but I haven’t come up with a pithy one yet...

[EmperorSarda]

I vote for the driving title.

[Peelee]

Of course, it's possible Rich is handwaving that, but just putting that out.

Not intended against you specifically, you were just the first one I could find.

BOOYAKASHA!


ETA: I never thanked you for pulling from my SRD. That's a shame on my part. You rock.

[MultitudeMan]

OK, so #1154 is up, and I want to be the first to ask; could that be the Hammer of Thunderbolts? If it were, and the gloves were somehow Gauntlets of Ogre Power, do you think Roy would lend Durkon his belt so that he could UNLEASH THE THUNDER!!!

[D.One]

OK, so #1154 is up, and I want to be the first to ask; could that be the Hammer of Thunderbolts? If it were, and the gloves were somehow Gauntlets of Ogre Power, do you think Roy would lend Durkon his belt so that he could UNLEASH THE THUNDER!!!

I really hope so.

I mean it. It would be REALLY RAD!!! It would be even radder if there was some giants to smash.

Still about this strip, we've got in comic confirmation that Greg ceased to use Durkon's armor because it was destroyed, which means he didn't give it to any other vampire.

[Chronos]

I still have to wonder why the vampire never got replacement armor, though. He should have had just an easy time of finding suitable armor as Durkon would (if nothing else, take it off of one of the lesser vampires), and he had days to do so (as opposed to the few hours Real-Durkon has). Between the +6 natural armor and +4 Dex from becoming a vampire, it'd certainly be less important, and the increased Dex might make it suboptimal to wear full plate, but he should still be finding some sort of lighter armor to wear instead. Armor check penalty? The only skill that seems like it even might be relevant is Hide/Move Silently, but he was making no attempt at stealth (some of the other vampires were, but he was going for the "Dark Lord on his Dark Throne" look).

[Peelee]

I still have to wonder why the vampire never got replacement armor, though. He should have had just an easy time of finding suitable armor as Durkon would (if nothing else, take it off of one of the lesser vampires), and he had days to do so

Source? Because if he had days, he would have won.

[D.One]

I still have to wonder why the vampire never got replacement armor, though. He should have had just an easy time of finding suitable armor as Durkon would (if nothing else, take it off of one of the lesser vampires), and he had days to do so (as opposed to the few hours Real-Durkon has). Between the +6 natural armor and +4 Dex from becoming a vampire, it'd certainly be less important, and the increased Dex might make it suboptimal to wear full plate, but he should still be finding some sort of lighter armor to wear instead. Armor check penalty? The only skill that seems like it even might be relevant is Hide/Move Silently, but he was making no attempt at stealth (some of the other vampires were, but he was going for the "Dark Lord on his Dark Throne" look).

I'd bet the reason for not getting a new armor was the same for going all "Dark Lord on his Dark Throne": arrogance.

[Kurald Galain]

New thread now available (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579856-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XVI-These-Characters-May-Now-Drive-the-Plot&p=23675459#post23675459). I'll update shortly with new developments, such as Durkon's Lightninghammer.