2nd edition AD&D question

[Paul1976]

In the humanoid guide do the str and dex monstrous traits just bump the rolled stat or actually increase the racial max ?

[johnbragg]

That would have been entirely dependent on your DM.

Rules-lawyering, and the entire idea that the rules were anything but guidelines for the DM, is WOTC era thinking. Very few tables played everything "by the book"--racial stat and level limits were some of the most widely ignored rules in the books. Players who cited rules text in challenging DM decisions were liable to be answered with Rocks FAlling and EVeryone Dying.

All that said, as DM I would check the given tables. Do the tables look like they reflect the additions, or not? If Oogaboogas get a +2 to Wisdom, and their racial max for Wisdom is 18, then I'd say the 18 is for the roll, and the real max is 20. If the table says their racial max is 20, then that includes the +2.

[Tinkerer]

Rules-lawyering, and the entire idea that the rules were anything but guidelines for the DM, is WOTC era thinking. Very few tables played everything "by the book"--racial stat and level limits were some of the most widely ignored rules in the books. Players who cited rules text in challenging DM decisions were liable to be answered with Rocks FAlling and EVeryone Dying.

Er, no. Having played across a wide variety of game types back in the 80's I can definitely tell you that rules-lawyering was alive and well back then. Not quite as prevalent as it is now but it's been a major part since gaming's inception, which considering the war gaming roots is hardly surprising.

But on the topic at hand it appears as though the racial maximum at character generation is what is shown in the tables. The bonuses do not allow you to bump it beyond the numbers there.

[rax]

The rules for ability adjustments and especially monstrous traits aren't very clear. In the PHB, it's clearly stated that racial ability score adjustments can raise a character's scores above or below the racial maximums/minimums. In the Complete Book of Humanoids, what is written about racial ability score adjustments strongly suggests that they cannot raise or lower a rolled ability score above or below the racial maximums/minimums. This interpretation is (IMO) further strengthened by the fact that the listed minimums/maximums tend to align with a score or 18 plus a given race's ability score adjustments.

With that out of the way...what about monstrous traits? These come in two flavours - the standard ones that all members of a humanoid race get, and the optional rolled ones. The standard ones are weird, because some of them don't appear on p. 103-104 and many of the "normal" ones have several levels, but nowhere in the book does it tell you which one a character gets as standard. I assume, though, that the intent is that one always gets the lowest level unless rolling for optional traits.

Can monstrous traits raise a score above a racial maximum? Well, p. 8 states that "No ability score can fall below or rise above the maximum without magical or divine aid", but that's in a paragraph that's specifically discussing racial ability score adjustments. The rules for reading the humanoid entries on p. 15 say that "...over time, a character's ability scores may change. Only at the time of a character's creation must the minimums and maximums be adhered to." But again, there's no specific mention of monstrous traits.

However, on p. 9, there are rules for exceeding humanoid class level limits for single-classed characters with ability scores 1-3 points higher than the racial maximums (which in many cases is 18 or higher). In 2e, increasing a score above 18 using magic is very difficult (it takes 10 wishes just to raise a score one point above 16), and magic tomes can only increase a score by +1 once, so it seems unlikely to me that this would be the expected method of exceeding racial ability score limits. That leaves the rolled monstrous traits, which can offer very high ability score adjustments, potentially -5 to +5. Since rolled traits are in addition to the standard ones, a humanoid with, for example, Monstrous Strength 3 would be an unusual specimen even by the standards of his race. Because of this, I would allow monstrous traits to raise or lower a character's ability scores above or below the racial limits.

[jojo]

...Because of this, I would allow monstrous traits to raise or lower a character's ability scores above or below the racial limits.

I am going to offer a dissenting opinion in answer to this question. As a DM my first consideration is "RAW."

In regard to racial adjustments, the PHB clearly states on page 26 that:

"Consult Table 7 before making any racial adjustments to your character's ability scores. If the basic scores that you rolled up meet the requirements for a particular race, your character can be of that race, even if later modifications change the ability scores so they exceed the maximums or don't meet the minimums. Once you satisfy the requirements at the start, you never have to worry about them again."

In contrast to this the Complete Book of Humanoids (at issue here) clearly states on Page 8 that:

"Each humanoid race has its own set of ability minimums and maximums. No ability score can fall below the minimum or rise above the maximum without magical or divine aid."

Given that a comparison of the RAW between the two sources results in a direct contradiction I would move on to another reliable consideration; Date of Publication. ADnD under TSR did not offer errata in the easily accessible manner that WotC players familiar with 3.x and up are accustomed to. As a result of that date of publication was an important arbitrating factor.

In this case the Complete Book of Humanoids lists a date of publication of 1993. My PHB, on the other hand lists a date of publication of April 1995 as it is a re-release of the original 1989 2nd edition.

This appears to solve my problems and in most normal circumstances I would default to the RAW found in the primary source material due to the lack of errata as mentioned above.

My gut (20 years of experience) tells me that this is not the case however, so it is necessary to dig deeper into the RAI.

The Complete Book of Humanoids is careful to devote two entire pages to differentiating "Humanoids" from Humans and other "PC Races." Further it doesn't include any additional rules for "Demi-Human" races included in the base PHB.

The logical conclusion that can be drawn from this is that "Humanoids" and "Demi-Humans" are separate "Creature Types" in the same way that "Celestial" and "Fey" are in later editions. Accepting this fact allows us to return to the RAW with the benefit of having eliminated the apparent contradictions between the PHB and the Complete Book of Humanoids.

The conclusion then becomes that a decision should be made based on the RAW found on page 8 of the Complete Book of Humanoids. In this case the rules are very clear, only magic or divine intervention may increase abilities beyond racial minimums/maximums. This brings us to the question of traits, namely are these traits "magical" or do they result from "divine intervention."

As described on page 103 of the Complete Book of Humanoids there is no evidence to suggest that traits are inherently magical or result from divine intervention. Given the inherent power offered by some of these, and the fact that any negative modifiers are generally able to be removed through mundane actions, as a DM I would err on the side of caution and rule traits to be mundane. Ergo traits would not be able to increase the starting ability score of a humanoid character beyond racial maximums.

For example, the Bestial Appetite trait series states that:

"Humanoid has the appetite of a [XXXX] beast; must consume [X] times as much food at every meal or suffer a [-X] penalty to Strength and Constitution scores."

As written this is clearly a temporary penalty that can be overcome by eating a sufficient amount of food, a completely mundane activity. This suggests to me that my assessment is correct, "traits are mundane and therefore cannot increase ability scores beyond listed racial maximums."

Moving on to the Monstrous Strength 2 trait we can find additional evidence in support of this:

"Humanoid has great Strength; +3 bonus to Strength score (minimum 10) -2 penalty to reaction checks."

The fact that a minimum is listed as part of the trait, along with the fact that said minimum is well below the majority of racial maximum scores suggests that this trait is not meant to raise a character's Strength score beyond the listed maximums.

Once all of these various factors are weighed against one another I would suggest that the Monstrous Strength and Monstrous Dexterity Traits, along with other traits that provide permanent ability score increases do not raise the Racial Maximum ability score for a given character as listed in the Complete Book of Humanoids. I would suggest that this judgement is accurate RAW while accounting for RAI and that it does not contradict or supercede pre-existing RAW.