What If? Questions about the early strip and Sapphire Guard [Archive]

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-23, 11:06 AM

Yo- got me some questions. I've been toying with the theoretical notion of an AU fanfic focused on... well, guess who, but I keeping running into problems trying to sort out Miko's situation during the early strip, just prior to being sent after the Order.

Point 1: The Sapphire Guard's response to the destruction of Dorukan's Gate seems a little... tepid... when you compare it with situations both earlier and later in the plot. During O-Chul's story (if I'm getting this right) the Guard's response to just a whiff of danger from the Crimson Mantle was to dispatch a summoned Solar with a fair-sized cohort to deal with the problem, and in SoD they send a small army to wipe out RC's village. Later, Shojo loans out a Level-18+ wizard to transport the Order on a side-quest, and Lien + O-Chul are using Sending spells to stay in regular contact with superiors.

So it seems strange that when Dorukan's keep blows up, they send a single (albeit formidable) paladin with no backup and marginal tracking ability to ride over hundreds of miles to catch the perps, rather than, say, just teleporting an integrated multi-purpose strike team directly on-site. Even if Shojo wants them alive, doesn't the thought cross his mind that 6:1 odds vs. primary casters means the Order might actually beat her? Like, fatally?

Point 2: Eugene's involvement raises more questions than it answers. If Eugene actually arrived to talk with Shojo directly after Dorukan's Gate was destroyed, then they both already know that Xykon was the malefactor here, that he escaped, and that he's (presumably) vulnerable while regenerating. Why not just have the Guard go after Xykon directly, given that solves both their problems?

If the paladins need to know why, Shojo can always say "well, the celestial being we summoned had been watching over Dorukan's keep and he tells me that a mad lich sorceror was plotting something nefarious"- which is not only plausible, but actually mostly true- and the illusory BoPLAG can corroborate that story, with bonus points if he thinks to mention the Crimson Mantle. Xykon isn't at any of the Gates by then, so the paladins' oaths wouldn't mean they can't hunt for him, and if Eugene can't tell them where to look, their diviners can.

Possible counter-explanations:

Shojo's Decisions: Maybe the key here is that Shojo isn't faking senility- he's actually senile, and on his better days he thinks he's faking it. His decisions don't have to make sense because he's actually not in his right mind. (Of course, this raises the question of whether Hinjo and other senior staff wouldn't start quietly making their own calls when it came to affairs of state, but that's another discussion.)

Why Send Just Miko: The usual answer is that she (A) knows how to track, and (B) doesn't play well with others, but diviners or hound archons can track much better, and given the stakes of the mission I have to imagine fellow paladins could endure her company for the greater good. I'm starting to wonder if perhaps her mission was intended as a punishment, or trial or atonement of sorts- did she, say, piss off the local nobles during some delicate negotiations, and this is how she makes good? Would that make half-way sense to Shojo, and/or anyone likely to influence the decision?

Teleporting: Maybe the Guard don't trust anyone beside clerics/paladins on a mission related to the Gates, or they specifically don't trust the possibly-alcoholic wizard that Shojo loans to Roy & Co.? It seems like a rather large concession against efficiency, given that teleporting to the Gate would shave off weeks of travel time and make tracking the perps much easier. Miko also says out loud that the Gate is related to the fabric of reality, so was ultra-secrecy on that point paramount? Are teleport spells just rare and not widely known?

I know it's not fair to pick on the early strip for being only loosely concerned with logic or the moral justifications for X, Y and Z- these were not top priorities for the audience at the time- and that pondering these questions too deeply can lead to Tippyverse territory. So this isn't intended particularly as a dig at the author. I just want to see, for my own curiosity, if there's a way to square this circle.

Keltest

2017-12-23, 11:19 AM

As far as point one goes, Shojo wants the order on his side and working for him. While Miko was perhaps not the greatest choice to send there, a strike team of paladins would rather drastically reduce the chances of the Order trusting him, while also increasing the number of paladins who know about the Order's presence and history with the gates.

For point two, what are the SG going to do? Eugene spent most of his life trying and failing to track Xykon, and that was when he was actively doing stuff. The Guard has no practical means of locating him at that juncture, to say nothing of the displeasure of the Northerners towards a team of paladins from another continent riding in and tearing up the countryside looking for this guy. And without the Order, they cant just go to the remaining gates and bolster their defenses, because of Soon's Oath. That was the plan, remember? Go to the Oracle, figure out where Xykon is going to strike next, then send the Order to bolster the defenses at that Gate, since the Guard cant do so themselves.

Kish

2017-12-23, 11:30 AM

RatElemental

2017-12-23, 12:16 PM

As far as Shojo's diviners being able to find Xykon, he had been casting cloister on the place. So any attempts at scrying on him would be a no go unless he let the effect lapse for some reason.

Or the SG had some epic level casters sitting around.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-23, 12:31 PM

As for why Shojo came up with an excuse to have the Order brought to him to investigate the Gates instead of simply sending the entire Sapphire Guard against Xykon, that doesn't really strike me as a very logical question. Xykon was out for a matter of days and was traveling during that time, still Cloistered...

As far as Shojo's diviners being able to find Xykon, he had been casting cloister on the place. So any attempts at scrying on him would be a no go unless he let the effect lapse for some reason.
I'll try to come back to some of the other points later, but it's not obvious to me that Xykon had been using cloister while he was in the dungeon- if he had, wouldn't that have blocked the same divinations that allowed the Guard to identify the OOTS were at the scene? And would he have been able to cast anything later on, when he was waiting a couple of days for his body to regenerate?

Even if they can't actually land directly on top of Xykon, they could teleport close enough to the gate that conventional tracking skills- like, say, from a summoned Inevitable or Hound Archon- could probably close the gap. (Given that Miko somehow picked up the Order's trail weeks after they'd already left the scene, I don't see that being a problem.) If they do it fast enough, they don't actually need to deal with Xykon at full strength, just with Redcloak.

RatElemental

2017-12-23, 12:34 PM

I'll try to come back to some of the other points later, but it's not obvious to me that Xykon had been using cloister while he was in the dungeon- if he had, wouldn't that have blocked the same divinations that allowed the Guard to identify the OOTS were at the scene? And would he have been able to cast anything later on, when he was waiting a couple of days for his body to regenerate?

Even if they can't actually land directly on top of Xykon, they could teleport close enough to the gate that conventional tracking skills- like, say, from a summoned Inevitable or Hound Archon- could probably close the gap. (Given that Miko somehow picked up the Order's trail weeks after they'd already left the scene, I don't see that being a problem.) If they do it fast enough, they don't actually need to deal with Xykon at full strength, just with Redcloak.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) comic is relevant. It shows that Xykon was casting cloister on the dungeon, and I'm presuming the OotS weren't inside the dungeon when it was cast, so they weren't personally cloistered. As soon as they left the area of effect they were fair game for scrying.

goodpeople25

2017-12-23, 01:37 PM

The dungeon and most likely team evil was cloistered but would (any of) the effects end when Xykon "died"? If that's the case I don't think cloister would be that big a factor in scrying him, though I have no idea about other scrying protections (how effective they are, if Redcloak can cast them, magic items,ect) but I don't think that possibility should be discounted offhand.

As for tracking, the order left the dungeon above ground and interacted with the (presumably) nearby town and the like (And Miko was shown gathering information, though not necessarily "gathering information") if "tracking" didn't suffice. Xykon left though a tunnel whose entrance could have easily been destroyed/obsucred by the castle explosion and still was a secret escape tunnel. Not insurmountable but I think finding the tunnel is the real question, tracking would be secondary. (And probably quite simple, with the hobgoblins involved.)

Rogar Demonblud

2017-12-23, 01:46 PM

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-23, 02:11 PM

Plus, they didn't know a thing about the Order until Eugene started flapping his spectral gums.

Oh, and Eugene couldn't tell the Guard a thing about the Crimson Mantle, because he didn't know what it was. In fact, he still didn't mention it even after hearing Shojo's exposition dump during the trial, so it's doubtful he even noticed Redcloak beyond Random Goblin Lackey.
Eugene doesn't know his importance, but unless earlier events had them completely convinced that RC was already dead(?), then he's been the paladins' primary boogeyman for perhaps half a century. The very first thing anyone senior in the guard would ask is, "was a goblin with a red cloak involved?"

Sangwaan states that their divinations clearly identified the Order, and this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html) shows their scrying sensors looking directly at the wreckage of the keep, which couldn't happen if the cloister spell were in effect. (I mean, technically it targets an area 'up to' several miles wide, so maybe it was restricted to the keep and blowing that up means the 'area' it affected is gone, but that's splitting some fine hairs.)

The dungeon and most likely team evil was cloistered but would (any of) the effects end when Xykon "died"? If that's the case I don't think cloister would be that big a factor in scrying him, though I have no idea about other scrying protections (how effective they are, if Redcloak can cast them, magic items,ect) but I don't think that possibility should be discounted offhand.

As for tracking, the order left the dungeon above ground and interacted with the (presumably) nearby town and the like (And Miko was shown gathering information, though not necessarily "gathering information") if "tracking" didn't suffice. Xykon left though a tunnel whose entrance could have easily been destroyed/obsucred by the castle explosion and still was a secret escape tunnel. Not insurmountable but I think finding the tunnel is the real question, tracking would be secondary. (And probably quite simple, with the hobgoblins involved.)
Oh, I'm sure there'd be challenges involved. But as you say, probably not insurmountable given the resources that the Guard in general and Shojo in particular had at their disposal. Shojo also doesn't really have a compelling reason to conceal Xykon's survival from the paladins, and they might have a rare window of opportunity to put him down. Unless it was genuinely impossible to find teleport services, I don't think it would have been overkill to throw some more bodies at the problem.

.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-24, 11:15 AM

Harking back a little- it's fine to say that Shojo might have been trying to earn the Order's trust, but in that case the person you want to send would be someone with ranks in diplomacy like Hinjo or O-Chul, or to maybe just use a Sending spell to explain things to Roy. (Also, there's no clear reason why Eugene/the BoPLAG couldn't explain the Order's role directly to the paladins, which would probably be much clearer than saying something about your cat wanting them alive.)

I don't think that Shojo really had a choice about ordering the OOTS' arrest, per se. The guard and their diviners would have noticed the gate-indicator blinking regardless, and given Lirian's Gate was already destroyed, it'd be time to hit the panic button and bring in anyone involved for questioning. But sending just Miko seems like a poor strategy if he's either trying to persuade them to come quietly or guarantee their capture. Moreover, once the trial/interrogation starts, none of the paladins, or Shojo himself, seem to inquire that deeply into what Xykon & Co. themselves were up to- in particular, the Crimson Mantle never comes up. The only explanation I can think of there is that their diviners already probed for RC's involvement and came back with persistent negatives.

I don't think the point about jurisdiction is particularly relevant- a lot of the locations involved in the plot are outside of any particular nation-state, and sending five-to-seven agents will violate that as much as sending one.

That actually reminds me of something- given that Lirian's forest was in the elven lands, and Azure City is friendly with the elves, wouldn't they have some mutual interest in researching a method of repairing the rift after the gate's destruction? Hum.

Keltest

2017-12-24, 11:20 AM

That actually reminds me of something- given that Lirian's forest was in the elven lands, and Azure City is friendly with the elves, wouldn't they have some mutual interest in researching a method of repairing the rift after the gate's destruction? Hum.

The elves in general don't even know about the Rifts. The Guard is unlikely to let them in on the secret if they can avoid it, although who knows what the rift looks like after everything that has happened.

factotum

2017-12-24, 12:34 PM

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) comic is relevant. It shows that Xykon was casting cloister on the dungeon, and I'm presuming the OotS weren't inside the dungeon when it was cast, so they weren't personally cloistered. As soon as they left the area of effect they were fair game for scrying.

But the area of effect of Cloister is a zone several miles across. (Evidence: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html). Since Shojo had no way of knowing who was responsible for the destruction of Dorukan's Gate, and he can hardly keep scrying every inch of a border many miles long, it would not be practical for him to zero in on the Order's location using scrying. Hence, why he has to send a physical person to investigate to try and find what happened.

That's also pretty much what happened when Lirian's Gate was destroyed, incidentally--we see one panel of two Paladins discussing if they have Spot or Track as class skills, thus missing a scrap of a red cloak and goblin footprints; I forget which strip that's in, though, and I'm not going to go through all 1000+ of them to find it!

hamishspence

2017-12-24, 12:36 PM

That's also pretty much what happened when Lirian's Gate was destroyed, incidentally--we see one panel of two Paladins discussing if they have Spot or Track as class skills, thus missing a scrap of a red cloak and goblin footprints; I forget which strip that's in, though, and I'm not going to go through all 1000+ of them to find it!

This one - same period as Shojo explained why he needed to recruit the Order in the first place:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-25, 08:48 AM

But the area of effect of Cloister is a zone several miles across. (Evidence: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html). Since Shojo had no way of knowing who was responsible for the destruction of Dorukan's Gate, and he can hardly keep scrying every inch of a border many miles long, it would not be practical for him to zero in on the Order's location using scrying. Hence, why he has to send a physical person to investigate to try and find what happened.
Again, Sangwaan apparently managed to identify the Order remotely as responsible for the Gate's destruction, so I don't see pinpointing their location as being a problem. But even without exact info, there's no disadvantage to using Teleport to get to the ruined keep. A fresher trail would be much easier to track, and the perps can't get very far if you arrive on-scene within a few hours.

Secondly, Shojo ostensibly did have a way of knowing who was responsible- Eugene straight-up told him, and he has no obvious reason to hide this information from the paladins. (Or at least, having the BoPLAG corroborate the story is a lot less error-prone than using the BoPLAG to stage a rigged trial to gain leverage over some kidnapped adventurers whose job is to... corroborate the story.)

I mean, how, exactly, was Shojo planning to present any evidence that the Order gathered in the first place, without revealing that he'd broken his oath not to meddle with the other Gates by telling the Order to fetch it? Were the Order going to say they were just ambling at random through the desert and they happened to bump into Xykon next to this nifty-looking pyramid? These paladins must be very trusting souls.

The elves in general don't even know about the Rifts. The Guard is unlikely to let them in on the secret if they can avoid it, although who knows what the rift looks like after everything that has happened.
That's true, but if Miko can say that Dorukan's Gate was connected to the fabric of reality- which seems like sensitive information for people you just met- it's possible a few elven archmages could be told enough to look the other way, at least. If the SG wanted to build a military base in the backwoods, for example.

Fyraltari

2017-12-25, 09:41 AM

As for a reason not to use teleportation, the Sapphire Guard is a secret organisation so it makes sense they prefer not to rely on outsiders even if they work for the same lord.

And as of the trial the Guard defenitely knew the Crimson Mantle was loose, the Order's entire defense was "Elan was right to destroy the gate because if he hadn't that goblin with a red cloak that worked with Xykon would have used it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html)."

Also just a thought but it is entirely likely that Eugene refused to say all he knew about Xykon if Shojo did not asure that the Order would be involved. After all : "Sapphire Guard destroys Xykon" is the worst case scenario as far as he is concerned.

factotum

2017-12-25, 10:09 AM

As for a reason not to use teleportation, the Sapphire Guard is a secret organisation so it makes sense they prefer not to rely on outsiders even if they work for the same lord.

That's a good point--didn't Roy ask where the teleport wizard was during the Battle of Azure City, and no-one knew who he was talking about? The best they could tell him was that the wizard must have worked for some noble or other, rather than being a member of the Sapphire Guard.

Keltest

2017-12-25, 10:13 AM

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-25, 10:15 AM

I thought the teleporting wizard got eaten by a Roc, and they couldn't arrange to get him raised before Xykon arrived?

Do we know for certain that Roy/Elan actually mentioned Redcloak during the trial? Roy only describes him to Celia as such.

I also don't think the terms of the blood oath strictly require that Roy has to be the one to kill Xykon (Eugene's been very bullish about just letting the world end lately, which wouldn't be down to Roy either.) I think Xykon just needs to be dead.

Fyraltari

2017-12-25, 03:27 PM

They did bring up goblins several times and Roy said he was confident they could do with the gate anything Xykon could, so if that did not make them ask about crimson mantles the Paladisn really suck at their jobs. I mean : more than they already do.

I guess the fact that Roy escorted Jerkon to the moot and provided him with a teleport orb could be constructed as him being a part od the destruction off the world and thus fulfilling his father's oath. Mayyyyyyyyybe ? How good is Eugene's Bluff, I wonder.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-25, 04:04 PM

'The SG suck at gathering intel' has been a sort of recurring black joke in the series, but pretty much every higher authority in the strip has to be dragged down to the Order's level in order for the plot to function. They might or might not be especially inept in that regard.

Anyway, assuming Shojo isn't senile, here's the most plausible scenario I can work out.

(1) Dorukan's Gate is destroyed. Once the alarm sounds at SG HQ, the diviners scramble, immediately asking 'who was responsible?', and get back 'the Order of the Stick' as an answer. 'Did the crimson mantle conspire with them?' or something similarly-worded gets a 'No'. Direct scrying of the ruins gives a visual read on the OOTS but doesn't show any other survivors, so the guard are convinced that RC wasn't involved. Shojo is consulted and convenes his paladins.

(2) Eugene does not appear and does not consult with Shojo until at least a few days later, and probably not until after Miko has already captured the Order and is heading back for Azure City. This is a story Shojo and Eugene concoct much later to smooth relations with Roy & Co., after the BoPLAG is summoned for the trial. Being able to explain the real situation with Xykon and the OOTS (either directly or by Sending) is too much good intel to pass up, so the only reasonable excuse I can see is that Shojo genuinely did not have it in time.

(3) Skipping back, we'll say that Miko's orders setting out were to find the culprits, execute them if they are evil, and bring them in for trial if they are not. Since Shojo does not know much about the Order's fighting strength, it's assumed that six stragglers from whatever evil army managed to penetrate Dorukan's Keep can't pose much of a threat to her, and he would rather not bring in outside agents to handle TP. There might be some murmurs about sending one paladin to deal with this kind of problem, but he says he has every confidence in her abilities.

If Shojo is senile, or at least senile part of the time, then (3) is easier to justify, but (2) is a little harder (Shojo doesn't need a reasonable excuse for doing things if he's demented.) It's probably fudge-able either way. I do like the idea of Miko being semi-exiled for something a little less trivial than bad manners, though, so maybe that could be worked in.

As long as the SG's diviners don't immediately know to look for Xykon/RC, it's conceivable that natural will saves and dumb luck would screen them from an initial sensor sweep, so Cloister being active or not doesn't matter all that much. However, there's an implicit requirement here: High-level adventurers, in particular wizards/clerics, have to be very rare. If they're common, then teleport services and other tippyverse devices become cheap and ubiquitous, and it's essentially implausible that Miko would be walking or riding anywhere (or that anything else in the world would be how it is.) This also means that Roy was actually super-lucky (or deeeestined!) to recruit five other team-mates in a tavern at around level 10.

So... in theory that more-or-less shores up the canon narrative, if you're into that sort of thing. I do have some ideas about alternate-universe points of departure, but we can always leave if there for now.

hamishspence

2017-12-25, 04:43 PM

assuming Shojo isn't senile, here's the most plausible scenario I can work out.

(1) Dorukan's Gate is destroyed. Once the alarm sounds at SG HQ, the diviners scramble, immediately asking 'who was responsible?', and get back 'the Order of the Stick' as an answer. 'Did the crimson mantle conspire with them?' or something similarly-worded gets a 'No'. Direct scrying of the ruins gives a visual read on the OOTS but doesn't show any other survivors, so the guard are convinced that RC wasn't involved. Shojo is consulted and convenes his paladins.

(2) Eugene does not appear and does not consult with Shojo until at least a few days later, and probably not until after Miko has already captured the Order and is heading back for Azure City. This is a story Shojo and Eugene concoct much later to smooth relations with Roy & Co., after the BoPLAG is summoned for the trial. Being able to explain the real situation with Xykon and the OOTS (either directly or by Sending) is too much good intel to pass up, so the only reasonable excuse I can see is that Shojo genuinely did not have it in time.
From the way Eugene acted, and in the bonus strips with him and Shojo in War & XPs:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html

I think there's reason to believe what Eugene did, is exactly what he said he did.

The whole point of Roy's rage at Eugene, is that Eugene & Shojo's stunt hurt him a lot (those fights, the stress of being on trial for his life, etc). It doesn't "smooth relations" - it downright enrages him. If Miko had been sent before Eugene contacted Shojo, Roy would have much less reason to be angry.

Therefore, I think his story can be taken at face value at least in this case.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-26, 12:35 AM

The whole point of Roy's rage at Eugene, is that Eugene & Shojo's stunt hurt him a lot (those fights, the stress of being on trial for his life, etc). It doesn't "smooth relations" - it downright enrages him. If Miko had been sent before Eugene contacted Shojo, Roy would have much less reason to be angry.
I hadn't thought of that. You're right- if Shojo had simply said he couldn't avoid sending someone to arrest the Order- which I reckon was actually true regardless of timing- and then introduced Eugene, it would probably deflect a lot of the blame. (I would mention Roy is actually pleased until he realises he's not being congratulated, even though informing him of Xykon's escape is a much less trivial reason to fetch him. Shojo's pretext might not have registered through the haze of daddy issues.)

But yeah, it's a stretch. Unfortunately, to my mind the alternative- where Shojo knows most of the particulars of the Order and Xykon's activities, and fails to usefully share or act on that information- imputes an obtuseness that borders on malevolence. That Eugene would miscalculate Roy's reaction seems more plausible than miscalculating everything else they could do with that intel.

Heck, even after the trial, when the ship was sailed as far as pwning Xykon or coaxing the Order was concerned, it's hard to think of good reasons why Eugene couldn't share. There might not be much benefit by then, but the only risk is that the delayed revelation might piss off the paladins- and even then they'd be pissed at the illusory BoPLAG, not Shojo.

factotum

2017-12-26, 02:33 AM

But yeah, it's a stretch. Unfortunately, to my mind the alternative- where Shojo knows most of the particulars of the Order and Xykon's activities, and fails to usefully share or act on that information- imputes an obtuseness that borders on malevolence.

Why does it have to be either/or those two positions? For a start, I don't see why Shojo should necessarily be aware of Xykon's activities. The Order of the Scribble set up rules whereby they wouldn't interfere in each other's gates unless the monitoring magic showed they'd been destroyed, and while I suppose it's possible Shojo (being Chaotic) would have ignored that and scryed on Dorukan anyway, there's no evidence that he did so. Plus, of course, Cloister was in effect and preventing scrying. (Which brings up a question: how did Shojo scry on the wreckage anyway? It would surely still be under the effects of the last Cloister spell Xykon cast on it).

So, we have zero evidence that Shojo knew anything about Xykon's activities, or even that Dorukan had died, so assuming he didn't mention any of that stuff due to malevolence is a real leap in logic. Eugene no doubt informed him of all that stuff when he got summoned, but Eugene himself didn't know where Xykon was or what he was up to--if he had, he would have informed Roy, because it was in his selfish self-interest to do so.

RatElemental

2017-12-26, 03:04 AM

If cloister was still in effect on the land near the dungeon, that would also explain why the guard didn't teleport in: they couldn't. It takes even stronger epic magic to overcome epic magic.

Of course, the real reason was likely entirely to introduce Miko as a character, even though iirc her character shifted some time between when she was sent to find the order and when she actually did.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-26, 08:08 AM

The area-of-effect for cloister is only a few miles across. During Operation Peregrine, IIRC, the elves had no problem teleporting just outside that range and marching into the city. The Guard could do the same.

As factotum points out, however, if Cloister was in effect then the Guard shouldn't have been able to scry on the wreckage of the keep, which implies that either Cloister wasn't in effect, or Eugene's story is bogus.

I know that the real reason why Miko was introduced like this was because... it's a stick-figure comedy webcomic, and it's intended to be funny that Miko would stumble on the Order thanks to a montage sequence of wacky misunderstandings. I'm just trying to work out if you can retrofit that with what we know about the Guard and their abilities from later sources.

So, we have zero evidence that Shojo knew anything about Xykon's activities, or even that Dorukan had died, so assuming he didn't mention any of that stuff due to malevolence is a real leap in logic. Eugene no doubt informed him of all that stuff when he got summoned, but Eugene himself didn't know where Xykon was or what he was up to--if he had, he would have informed Roy, because it was in his selfish self-interest to do so.
I'm not saying that Shojo knew anything about Xykon prior to the keep's destruction. My point is that, after Eugene's visit, given Shojo is already worried that the Gates might be used to control the Snarl, and there's a goblin with a red cloak involved, that's more than enough reason to send a team with Xykon/RC, not Roy & Co., as the primary target for investigation.

You do raise a good point, though- if Eugene didn't visit Shojo immediately, he'd presumably have had longer to observe Team Evil and give precise intel on their location and dealings with the Hobgoblins. Of course, he couldn't control when the Guard would try to summon an advisor, but he'd be glued to the screen in the meantime.

One could imagine a scenario where they temporarily allow him past the pearly gates, only to be booted out 1d10 days later once Xykon's body is back in action... but would that be reaching too far? Hmm.

Keltest

2017-12-26, 08:44 AM

The area-of-effect for cloister is only a few miles across. During Operation Peregrine, IIRC, the elves had no problem teleporting just outside that range and marching into the city. The Guard could do the same.

As factotum points out, however, if Cloister was in effect then the Guard shouldn't have been able to scry on the wreckage of the keep, which implies that either Cloister wasn't in effect, or Eugene's story is bogus.

I know that the real reason why Miko was introduced like this was because... it's a stick-figure comedy webcomic, and it's intended to be funny that Miko would stumble on the Order thanks to a montage sequence of wacky misunderstandings. I'm just trying to work out if you can retrofit that with what we know about the Guard and their abilities from later sources.

I'm not saying that Shojo knew anything about Xykon prior to the keep's destruction. My point is that, after Eugene's visit, given Shojo is already worried that the Gates might be used to control the Snarl, and there's a goblin with a red cloak involved, that's more than enough reason to send a team with Xykon/RC, not Roy & Co., as the primary target for investigation.

You do raise a good point, though- if Eugene didn't visit Shojo immediately, he'd presumably have had longer to observe Team Evil and give precise intel on their location and dealings with the Hobgoblins. Of course, he couldn't control when the Guard would try to summon an advisor, but he'd be glued to the screen in the meantime.

One could imagine a scenario where they temporarily allow him past the pearly gates, only to be booted out 1d10 days later once Xykon's body is back in action... but would that be reaching too far? Hmm.

Why would Eugene place any significance on Redcloak? He's just a minion as far as Eugene knows, and Eugene is the only source of information they have.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-26, 09:33 AM

Eugene wouldn't. Shojo and anyone else senior in the Guard would (I hope) ask about it first thing.

Also: The Oracle. Even if Cloister were in effect, once they know who to look for there's nothing to stop Shojo & Co. from consulting like any other paying customer. Teleport a half-dozen proxies in, ask the questions, teleport back or send your report. If Tiamat has a problem with the paladins, send... whatever stooge Shojo used to create an illusory Belkar to do jail time and stay quiet about it. Now you know where Xykon is.

brian 333

2017-12-26, 12:15 PM

One question: When Xykon lost his phylactery, why couldn't he or Redcloak simply scry for it? I think much of the answers the OP seeks flows from there.

DataNinja

2017-12-26, 12:41 PM

If Tiamat has a problem with the paladins, send... whatever stooge Shojo used to create an illusory Belkar to do jail time and stay quiet about it. Now you know where Xykon is.

Slight problem. (Second-to-last panel.) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html) Said stooge is dead. :smallamused:

Kish

2017-12-26, 12:51 PM

There's also no indication that the Sapphire Guard knew about the Oracle.

Ruck

2017-12-26, 01:15 PM

One question: When Xykon lost his phylactery, why couldn't he or Redcloak simply scry for it? I think much of the answers the OP seeks flows from there.

Do you have any idea how hard it is going to be to find that?!? It has the best anti-detection spells we know on it!!! We're going to need to search for it BY HAND! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-26, 01:22 PM

Slight problem. (Second-to-last panel.) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html) Said stooge is dead. :smallamused:
Ah, I forgot about that. But... how would Eugene install an illusion within the cell without leaving his own summoning circle?

Eugene certainly knows about the Oracle, even if the SG don't. (Which, in any case, would be a little like the council of Athens not knowing about Delphi.)

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-26, 01:43 PM

Also, it just occurred to me: After the trial scene, Shojo sends Miko on another trip hundreds of miles away to deliver Durkon's personal mail. Admittedly it's a much less urgent mission than investigating a ruined Gate, but on the other hand it's a... much less urgent mission than investigating a ruined Gate. And a teleporting wizard could handle that in a couple of hours. Or, conceivably, just use scrying-plus-sending.

Wow. That's... impressively demeaning. Does Miko, like, not know that Teleport spells exist?

brian 333

2017-12-26, 03:14 PM

Kish

2017-12-26, 03:19 PM

On the other, other hand, "everyone gets around by teleportation, and using a celestial horse instead, despite the mission's not being urgent, is demeaning" amounts to an argument that the story should be beholden to certain worldbuilding assumptions which would make it a much worse story.

This feels oddly familiar, somehow.

hamishspence

2017-12-26, 03:53 PM

Miko cannot be demeaned by obeying a lawful order. The giver of such an order can demean himself if his intent is abusive.

A more overt example of "undignified orders"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html

much to Belkar's delight:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-26, 04:57 PM

On the other, other hand, "everyone gets around by teleportation, and using a celestial horse instead, despite the mission's not being urgent, is demeaning"...
Kish, this is like asking a military general to drive alone in a jeep from Paris to Mogadishu to deliver a letter to a local bishop, in an era with airports and telephone lines. If it's urgent enough to warrant her personal attention at all, it's urgent enough to fax the damn thing. The only way he could be wasting more of her time is if she was expected to swim.

I'm not making any immediate comment on whether a setting that involves ubiquitous cheap teleportation generates better or worse stories. If you don't want teleportation in the story, great. But... for better or worse, teleportation is already in the story, and that has some side-effects.

hamishspence

2017-12-26, 05:05 PM

Given that Miko has never been portrayed as having command ability or utility (she's "often sent alone on missions that keep her away for long periods") I'd say it's more like M sending James Bond on a letter delivery.

Valynie

2017-12-26, 05:09 PM

Sojo is the leader of the Sapphire Guard
As such , he is supposed to not look at what is happening at the other gates

If he sends a full contingent of paladins , some might question his orders. Miko on the other hand tends to trust him implicitely and obey orders blindly since she see him as a father figure. I always thought that one reason she kills him so easily is she feel personnally betrayed by the revelation he used her.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-27, 10:26 AM

@Valynie: I think most of those most points were covered already. I do agree that Miko might be more willing to trust Shojo than most, and that probably had something to do with her feeling betrayed. It doesn't really explain most of Shojo's decisions, though.

Given that Miko has never been portrayed as having command ability or utility (she's "often sent alone on missions that keep her away for long periods") I'd say it's more like M sending James Bond on a letter delivery.
There's some... ambiguity on that point. 007 might be the best at what he does, but I don't think he's entitled to give orders to 006. Miko seems to be pretty accustomed to ordering people around, including Hinjo, and she did have a pretty sharp grasp of combat tactics (including some familiarity with arcane casters.) She also refers to herself as the highest-ranked paladin of the guard, probably only subordinate to Shojo and/or the High Priest of the Twelve.

Of course, given that high-up lieutenants are supposed to help run an organisation, it's odd that Miko would be promoted that far if her personality made it difficult to keep her around subordinates. It would defeat the purpose. So, I don't know. It's a puzzle.

On the topic of Miko's rank, I think someone in the O-Chul story thread (?) suggested that Miko being Shojo's adopted daughter raises another potential complication- it doesn't really factor much into the story, and Azurite law might differ, but a lot of eastern societies allowed (https://adoption.com/wiki/Chinese_Qing_Dynasty_and_Adoption) adopted heirs to inherit land and title as if they were biological. Most daughters of high nobility would certainly have more than a 'small stipend' to live on. Miko's idea of a 'small' income might be somewhat relative, given she seems to have access to some fairly expensive equipment, though.

I'm tempted to speculate that Shojo might have been promoting her in lieu of other forms of compensation or inheritance, either out of a kind of fatherly concern or just wanting to ensure the loyalty of his lieutenants. Hard to say.

Keltest

2017-12-27, 10:52 AM

@Valynie: I think most of those most points were covered already. I do agree that Miko might be more willing to trust Shojo than most, and that probably had something to do with her feeling betrayed. It doesn't really explain most of Shojo's decisions, though.

There's some... ambiguity on that point. 007 might be the best at what he does, but I don't think he's entitled to give orders to 006. Miko seems to be pretty accustomed to ordering people around, including Hinjo, and she did have a pretty sharp grasp of combat tactics (including some familiarity with arcane casters.) She also refers to herself as the highest-ranked paladin of the guard, probably only subordinate to Shojo and/or the High Priest of the Twelve.

Of course, given that high-up lieutenants are supposed to help run an organisation, it's odd that Miko would be promoted that far if her personality made it difficult to keep her around subordinates. It would defeat the purpose. So, I don't know. It's a puzzle.

On the topic of Miko's rank, I think someone in the O-Chul story thread (?) suggested that Miko being Shojo's adopted daughter raises another potential complication- it doesn't really factor much into the story, and Azurite law might differ, but a lot of eastern societies allowed (https://adoption.com/wiki/Chinese_Qing_Dynasty_and_Adoption) adopted heirs to inherit land and title as if they were biological. Most daughters of high nobility would certainly have more than a 'small stipend' to live on. Miko's idea of a 'small' income might be somewhat relative, given she seems to have access to some fairly expensive equipment, though.

I'm tempted to speculate that Shojo might have been promoting her in lieu of other forms of compensation or inheritance, either out of a kind of fatherly concern or just wanting to ensure the loyalty of his lieutenants. Hard to say.

Its possible that Miko's rank is such that she can requisition resources to complete her missions without having to have Shojo sign off on all the paperwork personally authorizing it. She doesn't actually manage any of the day-to-day stuff, but she has the authority to set things in motion if she needs to.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-12-27, 11:14 AM

I always figured Miko's 'rank' had to do with her level. Keep getting sent on adventures missions, keep getting XP, keep gaining levels.

unbeliever536

2017-12-27, 01:51 PM

I always figured Miko's 'rank' had to do with her level. Keep getting sent on adventures missions, keep getting XP, keep gaining levels.

It's fairly clear from her dialogue with Hinjo that she thinks so, but she's also pretty clearly wrong on that count.

Kish

2017-12-27, 01:58 PM

I find it...unlikely...that the Sapphire Guard's chain of command was so nebulous that Miko was allowed to bark orders at the heir to the throne, not because she actually outranked him within the Sapphire Guard, but because no one ever bothered to explain to her that she didn't actually have the rank she thought she did.

factotum

2017-12-27, 04:25 PM

It's fairly clear from her dialogue with Hinjo that she thinks so, but she's also pretty clearly wrong on that count.

Not sure what you mean by that? Miko was pretty clearly one of the most powerful Paladins in the Sapphire Guard--even having lost her paladin powers, *and* having her butt kicked by Roy, she was able to easily beat Hinjo in a straight fight. So she was definitely right on that count. Being the highest level member of the Guard didn't actually grant her any authority, but I'm not sure even she believed that it did? If anything, she believed any authority she had was granted directly by the Twelve Gods, irrespective of her level.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-27, 04:32 PM

Keltest

2017-12-27, 05:15 PM

The situation with Hinjo is 'the king is dead, long live the king'. Prior to that it certainly looks like Miko was accustomed to throwing her weight around.

Alright. Let's recap-

(1) If Eugene visited Shojo immediately after Dorukan's Keep went skyward, you have to explain why they didn't send the paladins straight after Xykon & Redcloak. If he visits later on, you have to explain why he didn't know more about Team Evil's location and collusion with the Hobgoblins. And at no point before, during, or after the trial is there a compelling reason why the BoPLAG can't just tell the paladins what Eugene knows. Xykon and Redcloak were Cloistered at the time, and the paladins have no real ability to locate them via mundane means (the best tracker in the SG having a single rank in the Survival skill). Given that there was a real chance they could be going to one of the other Gates instead of Azure City, Shojo needed a non-SG taskforce available to reinforce the other gates if Xykon went to them first. That was the plan, remember? Send the Order to find out where Xykon is going, then send the Order to reinforce whichever gate he is headed for.

(2) The best explanation for not using Teleport is that the Guard are severely paranoid about working with non-paladins/non-clerics, at least when it comes to business related to the Snarl, the Gates, or the Crimson Mantle. In that case, they're forfeiting some major tactical advantages on missions to pursue enemies that could end all earthly life. Youre assuming that wizard has nothing better to do with his time than teleport paladins back and forth all day. Remember that he was the only one available who could cast the spell. That simply isn't the resource youre assuming it is.

(3) Sending Miko with zero backup and spotty intel is pretty questionable, whether she's going after the Order or Team Evil. That means no-one to supplement her tracking or diplomacy skills, an increased risk of... well, defeat, and no-one to retrieve her body if she dies. Even if she's abrasive, that's hard to excuse if Shojo either knows about the Order or thinks the fate of the planet is at stake.

But as we've seen, Miko is perfectly capable of forcing the Order to come on her own, without any assistance. Why send more paladins on a job they aren't necessary on?

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-27, 05:28 PM

Keltest

2017-12-27, 05:38 PM

Keltest, I'm going to have to ask that you go back and read the full thread. There are serious questions about whether Cloister was active at all, Miko somehow managed to track the Order weeks later anyway with only one rank in survival, and if the Guard can summon a Solar they certainly summon things (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut) capable of tracking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#houndArchon). They can also consult the Oracle.

Yes, I am assuming this hypothetical wizard has nothing better to do than try and prevent the world he currently inhabits ending when his liege lord tells him to do so. That is a reasonable assumption.

Miko was capable of forcing the order to come, but that involved a certain amount of luck, and forcing them was ostensibly not the intention. Persuading them was.

First off, I have been reading the thread, and I'm rather annoyed that you would suggest that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Secondly, If your assumptions cause the story to stop making sense, that is a problem with your assumptions, not the story. Youre attributing motives and urgency to Shojo's actions that he has not been demonstrated to have, then getting confused when its inconsistent with the story.

Kish

2017-12-27, 05:56 PM

Peelee

2017-12-27, 05:59 PM

Miko somehow managed to track the Order weeks later anyway with only one rank in survival
The comic shows how Miko tracked the Order. She talked to people, got information, and followed the information. No Survival needed. Just enough rolls of Gather Information.

They can also consult the Oracle.
The Oracle gets his powers from a god not in the Southern Pantheon. This alone may make the Sapphire Guard loathe to use its services. Not to mention that said god is Evil.

Delta357

2017-12-27, 06:29 PM

He sends just Miko because he wants to limit how many people know about the OOTS within the SG. Remember hes using them to circumvent the Oath.

As for the different levels of responses in the previous stories, remember the SG weren't as level headed as they are now. Their leader in O'Chul story is really headstrong and bloodthirsty. Thier actions then aren't representive of the SG we see in the stories (and Shojo was alot younger then too, with less involvement in how they operated). Finally in both situations described they weren't looking for the gates, but the red cloak. This changes their MO drastically.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-27, 06:35 PM

1) The Sapphire Guard under Gin-Jun used a one-use magic item...
2) ...to summon a planetar, not a solar.
Shojo has no established or even implied ability to summon any number of solars. The High Priest of the Twelve Gods, in the duel of his life, cast nothing over sixth level, nor did any NPC defending Azure City from a conquering army demonstrate more powerful magic than that or any summoning or tracking ability whatsoever...
Fortunately, Planar Ally is a sixth-level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAlly.htm), which allows for summoning outsiders with 12 HD or less, which covers both hound archons and zelekhuts. Even lesser planar ally would allow for a hound archon. And they are clearly using similar spells to summon celestials as advisors, judges, and counsel for the defence.

Even if that fails, it's reasonable to take a common-or-garden variety ranger and swear them to secrecy using, say, a Mark of Justice. You don't need to share all the details of the mission in order for them to track quarry, but even saying 'the fabric of reality is at risk' was apparently within Miko's purview.

It's not using Tippyverse assumptions to quote things that happen within the same story as setting a reasonable precedent for them happening elsewhere. Next.

Edited to add: Also, Celia was not unclear about Xykon casting Cloister on the Dungeon of Dorukan and it staying up from then until some time after she left...
Unfortunately, Eugene was equally clear about the guard using a scrying sensor to scout the ruins of the keep, which should have been impossible if Cloister were active, nor did it prevent Sangwaan from identifying their involvement. It's certainly true that Celia has no obvious reason to lie, but there is the possibility that the spell expired after she left the keep and before the Order destroyed Xykon's body. The question is whose story you believe.

The comic shows how Miko tracked the Order. She talked to people, got information, and followed the information. No Survival needed. Just enough rolls of Gather Information.

The Oracle gets his powers from a god not in the Southern Pantheon. This alone may make the Sapphire Guard loathe to use its services. Not to mention that said god is Evil.
That's a good reason for the paladins, but not so much for Shojo. He can send pretty much anyone else to the Oracle- again, possibly with a Mark of Justice- and get the info he needs. (How does he reveal that intel without incriminating himself? I don't know. How would he disclose whatever evidence the Order obtained without incriminating himself?)

I'll grant you that the Order could well be easier to track than Xykon, but that's not really a good reason for abandoning the chase if you know who's really a threat, given the stakes involved.

Peelee

2017-12-27, 07:02 PM

Unfortunately, Eugene was equally clear about the guard using a scrying sensor to scout the ruins of the keep, which should have been impossible if Cloister were active, nor did it prevent Sangwaan from identifying their involvement. It's certainly true that Celia has no obvious reason to lie, but there is the possibility that the spell expired after she left the keep and before the Order destroyed Xykon's body. The question is whose story you believe.

It's also possible that Xykon didn't do his constant recasting of Cloister in the Dungeon of Dorukan like he did for Gobbotopia. It's possible (although admittedly unlikely) that the casting of Cloister wore off before the scrying attempts were made. However, if given the choice between the unlikely scenario and the impossible scenario, I'll choose to believe the unlikely scenario.

You do seem to make a good point about Shojo regarding the Oracle. My best guess to him is that he could potentially face reprisal from the other nobles (whether legal and legitimate or underhanded and illicit) if he used government resources on an extra-governmental affair? I think they admitted that Azure City had no jurisdiction over the Order, but the Sapphire Guard claimed universal jurisdiction. If he couldn't use SG, maybe he couldn't use normal army?

brian 333

2017-12-27, 08:41 PM

Did anyone here DM an outsider summoned for information? You kind of have to be cryptic. Perhaps Eugene was limited in both knowledge and in what he was allowed to say, as in Roy's dreams. Eugene also may not have had all the facts, or, as we saw in comic, the period between the sending of Miko and her return was rather fluid so he may not have been able to predict where the Oots would be days or weeks later.

On Miko: she was good at bossing people around. She was a lousy leader. To lead one must understand and have empathy for one's troops. Miko had neither understanding nor empathy, and her position in the hierarchy reflected her talents. She was very good at killing whatever got in her way, so she made a tolerable good messenger if her orders were clearly defined.

Note that exactly zero people came to her defense. Even a very poor leader can attract a toady. Miko wasn't even that good at leadership.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-27, 08:53 PM

@brian 333: I'm not saying that Miko was a good leader, but my point is that second-in-command is a leadership position. Why install her there if she's terrible at leading?

Eugene was clearly limited in his knowledge, but I'm pretty sure that he broke celestial law just by abducting and impersonating the celestial that the guard originally tried to summon, so why would that bother him? In either case, he clearly knew enough to put Shojo on the right track viz-a-viz Team Evil.

It's also possible that Xykon didn't do his constant recasting of Cloister in the Dungeon of Dorukan like he did for Gobbotopia. It's possible (although admittedly unlikely) that the casting of Cloister wore off before the scrying attempts were made. However, if given the choice between the unlikely scenario and the impossible scenario, I'll choose to believe the unlikely scenario.
My personal pet theory, given that Xykon was arranging his minions in carefully ascending order of challenge and practically invited the Order to his lair out of sheer boredom, was that he dropped the spell specifically so he'd be easy to find. Basically saying "come git me". And git him they did.

I have severe misgivings about whether Shojo's apparent senility would reduce or increase the frequency of assassination attempts, but it's pretty clear he does enough shady dealings that he can typically avoid reprisals from the nobles when he keeps it on the down low. I don't see that stopping him.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-12-27, 09:30 PM

One issue with sending people after Xykon directly is that his last known location (and thus the starting point) was the lowest level of the Dungeon of Dorukon, currently the bottom of a blast crater with a heap of rubble on top.

Really, the simplest explanation for all this is Shojo was Chaotic and was likely making it up as he went along instead of having a plan.

Delta357

2017-12-27, 09:56 PM

In regards to the Cloister effect, we know it lasts for a minimum of 25 weeks, and we know he was casting the spell himself regularly from Celia debriefing Haley on its effects. We can assume he just keeps it up all the time.

"Unfortunately, Eugene was equally clear about the guard using a scrying sensor to scout the ruins of the keep, which should have been impossible if Cloister were active, nor did it prevent Sangwaan from identifying their involvement."

As to how they can be seen, well its not exactly told if they can see anything from the scrying sensors, thats an assumption. They'd know the keep was destroyed because all the gates have a system to let you know which ones are still active (we see that in the desert temple). They know the order is involved from Eugene. Eugene sees Azure city attampting to scry their, but its unclear if that scrying sensor is working or if all they are seeing are "error messages" as Celia puts it. Been a while since I read that series of strips but I'm pretty sure that line of logic is sound.

As for her confirming it is the OOTS who did it, I don't see why the Cloister effect would prevent divine magic from saying so. It doesn't stop the Oracle from telling them anything about the dungeon, so we can say it works like that.

Miko is sent off on long missions because shes a total pain to be around + the only person qualifed to do alot of these jobs by herself, and Shojo wants to keep involvement of the OOTS to a minimum. That means sending one highly qualifed person who you can then send away again (someone no one would mind being away for long periods of time) so they don't ask around and spread the knowledge of it. Its not as effiecnt as using the full power of the SG, but thats because its under the table stuff, I think the strips make that pretty clear.

"They can also consult the Oracle."

Is it common knowledge said oracle exists? I'm not entirely sure it is.

Peelee

2017-12-27, 09:58 PM

it's pretty clear he does enough shady dealings that he can typically avoid reprisals from the nobles when he keeps it on the down low. I don't see that stopping him.

"Keeping it on the down low" arguably largely means "using the Sapphire Guard." In the event he cannot use them, his ability to contract for discretionary work may well be severely restricted.

Delta357

2017-12-27, 10:03 PM

Point 2: Eugene's involvement raises more questions than it answers. If Eugene actually arrived to talk with Shojo directly after Dorukan's Gate was destroyed, then they both already know that Xykon was the malefactor here, that he escaped, and that he's (presumably) vulnerable while regenerating. Why not just have the Guard go after Xykon directly, given that solves both their problems?

You must be joking. Even with him regenerating, they have no exact idea where he is, exactly one wizard with the ability to teleport, and this guy can kill a whole room of paladins with a bouncy ball for fun. Plus a high level goblin cleric and a button of minions. It'd be suicide, even for a mid/high level team of paladins. Rememeber the OOTS are higher level than anyone in Azure city bar maybe Miko (from what Eugene says to Roy after he dies about being the "highest level character on the field, and a PC to boot").

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-27, 10:27 PM

As for her confirming it is the OOTS who did it, I don't see why the Cloister effect would prevent divine magic from saying so. It doesn't stop the Oracle from telling them anything about the dungeon, so we can say it works like that.
Yes, but in that case, why can't divine magic tell them precisely where to find Team Evil? It's exactly the same principle.

The oracle was covered earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22697713&viewfull=1#post22697713). I don't really think that 'keeping the Order's profile low' makes sense, since at least 4 clerics, Sangwaan and Hinjo all knew of their being brought in, aside from how they're walking around the city with their own gift vouchers from Shojo. That cat is out the bag. None of which matters as such because going after the Order as suspect does not make sense, and because Eugene can just use the BoPLAG to explain all of this to the paladins. None of this needs to be covert at all.

You must be joking. Even with him regenerating, they have no exact idea where he is, exactly one wizard with the ability to teleport, and this guy can kill a whole room of paladins with a bouncy ball for fun. Plus a high level goblin cleric and a button of minions.
By the rules that wizard would have to be 18th level to transport the whole Order, which means he's almost playing in Xykon's league already. (This also implies he could cast Gate, which technically implies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) someone the Guard knows could summon a Solar.)

Leaving that side, Eugene would certainly know that Xykon's dangerous, but he might not have a detailed knowledge of the spells he can cast or other abilities. It's certainly not evidently suicidal while he's regenerating and has only one useful minion (I'm not counting the MitD, which Eugene probably has little knowledge of.) And given that fighting threats like the Crimson Mantle is the guard's raison d'etre, I don't see "but that would be dangerous" coming up in the conversation. They were never going to have a better opportunity.

It's fair to point out that the 'reformed' Sapphire Guard might have a different way of doing things from Ye Olden Times, but this is a situation where the headstrong, aggressive, seek-and-destroy attitude would actually be feasible and eminently justified. Tearing off after Xykon and Redcloak with every resource at their disposal ASAP could well have ended a major existential threat.

Ruck

2017-12-28, 01:09 AM

My personal pet theory, given that Xykon was arranging his minions in carefully ascending order of challenge and practically invited the Order to his lair out of sheer boredom, was that he dropped the spell specifically so he'd be easy to find. Basically saying "come git me". And git him they did.
So the Order could find him? The Order found him because Roy and Durkon asked the Oracle; see On the Origin of PCs.

I have severe misgivings about whether Shojo's apparent senility would reduce or increase the frequency of assassination attempts
Well, he testified to the latter, so it seems like that is what happened.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-28, 10:24 AM

@Ruck: Celia states that Cloister was active during her stay in the Dungeon, so I'm not talking about before the Order arrived. This would be after Celia leaves and before the OOTS made their assault on Xykon's throne-room.

I believe Shojo stated he faked senility in order to deflect blame for his policies and ward off ninja visitors.

One issue with sending people after Xykon directly is that his last known location (and thus the starting point) was the lowest level of the Dungeon of Dorukon, currently the bottom of a blast crater with a heap of rubble on top.

Really, the simplest explanation for all this is Shojo was Chaotic and was likely making it up as he went along instead of having a plan.
I dunno about chaotic, but Shojo being demented would certainly help to explain a good deal.

If Cloister was in effect they wouldn't be able to teleport into the crater, but teleporting reliably requires that you be familiar with the location, which would require advance scrying anyway, so they're not going to materialise in the middle of a heap of rubble. A more serious concern is that 'areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible'- the rift left after the gate's destruction would probably qualify in a big way.

"Keeping it on the down low" arguably largely means "using the Sapphire Guard." In the event he cannot use them, his ability to contract for discretionary work may well be severely restricted.
It's conceivable, but then you have to explain lending the teleporting wizard to the Order so they could go visit Cliffport- it's not like that was Guard business or had anything in particular to do with Azurite affairs. Heck, everything he did with the Order was a kind of 'contract for discretionary work', so clearly he wasn't all that restricted.

Based on what we know, I'd say the major weakness of using that particular wizard for teleportation was that he appears to get drunk easily? If you combine that with the risks of long-range transport to an under-visited, radioactively magical area, there's a substantial risk of appearing off-target or halfway inside a mountain. One could imagine a scenario where the Guard pull out all the stops and prep a full strike team, only to have half the crew left mangled or dead by 3rd-degree splinching (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Splinching). Which... might actually make for an interesting twist, now that I think of it.

I'd question whether that's the only teleporting wizard Shojo could possibly get his hands on, though- if nothing else, he could Send to his Elvish allies, who certainly had some spare capacity in that regard. A Mark of Justice probably wouldn't work on a high-level caster if you wanted to keep them quiet, but, well, there are no risk-free options here.

Peelee

2017-12-28, 11:29 AM

It's conceivable, but then you have to explain lending the teleporting wizard to the Order so they could go visit Cliffport- it's not like that was Guard business or had anything in particular to do with Azurite affairs. Heck, everything he did with the Order was a kind of 'contract for discretionary work', so clearly he wasn't all that restricted.
Huh. I always assumed the Wizard was part of the Sapphire Guard.

hamishspence

2017-12-28, 11:38 AM

Huh. I always assumed the Wizard was part of the Sapphire Guard.

The Sapphire Guard are all divine casters - the wizard is an arcane caster.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-28, 12:12 PM

Theoretically he could be multiclass, but since the Guard are picky about membership it's unlikely he'd be skilled enough as a Wizard to be useful if he made the grade as a Paladin or Cleric.

EDIT: That does make me wonder, though- would there be many Azurite Druids? The 12 take the form of animals, after all, so it might be a natural fit. You could also get some decent synergy from a Paladin/Sorceror combo, given that both rely on Charisma.

hamishspence

2017-12-28, 12:15 PM

Theoretically he could be multiclass, but since the Guard are picky about membership it's unlikely he'd be skilled enough as a wizard to be useful if he made the grade as a paladin/cleric.

I could see Shojo arranging for the most powerful arcane caster in the city to take 1 level in cleric before enrolling him - taking advantage of "Exact Words" of the rules for enrolling Sapphire Guard members.

Kish

2017-12-28, 12:31 PM

The wizard doesn't need to have been a Sapphire Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=704464&postcount=140) member.

hamishspence

2017-12-28, 12:42 PM

That too. However, powerful wizards tend to be beholden to nobody. Being able to give them orders to do transport work, and trust that they will follow them, suggests some kind of hold over that wizard.

The wizard seems pretty resentful as well as obedient:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html

Darth Paul

2017-12-28, 12:48 PM

You could also get some decent synergy from a Paladin/Sorceror combo, given that both rely on Charisma.

Someone will no doubt correct me, but my memory of the Paladin class rules is that you can't take levels in any other class, and still retain your Paladin class abilities... or am I horribly, horribly mistaken once again?

In other words, to do what you're suggesting, one would have to be a fairly powerful Sorcerer and then become a Paladin.

Also, I thought that one of the Sorcerer class requirements involved a non-Lawful alignment? And Paladins must be Lawful Good. (Or am I thinking of a different class, not sorcerer, when it comes to the non-Lawful requirement?)

hamishspence

2017-12-28, 12:55 PM

Someone will no doubt correct me, but my memory of the Paladin class rules is that you can't take levels in any other class, and still retain your Paladin class abilities... or am I horribly, horribly mistaken once again?

In other words, to do what you're suggesting, one would have to be a fairly powerful Sorcerer and then become a Paladin.

Also, I thought that one of the Sorcerer class requirements involved a non-Lawful alignment? And Paladins must be Lawful Good. (Or am I thinking of a different class, not sorcerer, when it comes to the non-Lawful requirement?)

To be exact, once your taken another level after taking a paladin level, you can't take any more (Various feats, campaign-specific paladin orders, etc, can get around this).
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.

Sorcerers have no alignment restriction, but are slightly more likely to be Chaotic than to be Lawful, in some sourcebooks.

Bard and Barbarian come with "May not be Lawful" restrictions (though the Bard doesn't lose anything by changing to Lawful, besides the ability to Take More Levels. The Barbarian loses Rage ability.)

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-28, 02:18 PM

Also, I thought that one of the Sorcerer class requirements involved a non-Lawful alignment? And Paladins must be Lawful Good. (Or am I thinking of a different class, not sorcerer, when it comes to the non-Lawful requirement?)
As hamish said, it's the other way around- paladin first, then sorceror. (Probably just two-to-three levels to get divine grace and similar health/save bonuses.)

Gods, the class and alignment restrictions in 3e are a mess. Especially law and chaos (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Morality_and_Fiends#Law_and_Chaos:_Your_Rules_or_M ine.3F).

That too. However, powerful wizards tend to be beholden to nobody. Being able to give them orders to do transport work, and trust that they will follow them, suggests some kind of hold over that wizard.
Well, let's imagine... he's involved in some aspect of Shojo's efforts at researching how to repair the rifts, so he thinks he has better things to do, but was in danger of losing his wizarding license over his drinking habit. Shojo pulled a few strings with the wizarding board, but now he has him over a barrel if he slips. Works for me.

Kish

2017-12-28, 03:55 PM

I'd also like to note that "can't take any more" is quite different from "can't retain your paladin abilities." A Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 is still an unfallen paladin.

Darth Paul

2017-12-28, 05:44 PM

I knew someone would correct me if I had it horribly, horribly wrong, yet again.:smallconfused:

brian 333

2017-12-28, 06:52 PM

-snip-I don't really think that 'keeping the Order's profile low' makes sense, since at least 4 clerics, Sangwaan and Hinjo all knew of their being brought in, aside from how they're walking around the city with their own gift vouchers from Shojo. That cat is out the bag. None of which matters as such because going after the Order as suspect does not make sense, and because Eugene can just use the BoPLAG to explain all of this to the paladins. None of this needs to be covert at all.

Imagine that you are raised all your life to protect a city. Now imagine you have discovered the possible existence of an actual threat to the world which could destroy your city first. Imagine the chaos in the streets as you inform the populace that their city may soon fall, but maybe not, because you're still not sure things are as bad as you think they might be.

Keeping the secret might also mean the difference between retaining control of the city where you can try to save it, or losing it to people who won't believe the threat exists outside of your mind.

And keep in mind the automatic classification of any information acquired by a government as secret out of habit. Need might have nothing to do with it.

My own thoughts are that the nature of the threat made it difficult to communicate to the nobles, and the lack of certain details made it impossible to know any timetable which would help to clarify the issue to the masses. Secrecy, at least until they could get a handle on how to fight back, was necessary to keep public order. Once the hobgoblin army came over the ridge there was a clearly defined threat and the attempt to intercept the attack on 'the next gate' became irrelevant. Had the OotS succeeded in intercepting Xykon at another gate, the populace would never have needed to know about it at all, and the SG would have not been involved at all.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-28, 07:58 PM

@Darth Paul: It's a minor error, don't beat yourself up.

@brian 333: I don't mean that the threat posed by Xykon/RC should have been disclosed to the general public. I just mean that Shojo & Eugene didn't need to keep this secret from the paladins.

Shojo's rationale for press-ganging the OOTS was to send them to obtain information on Team Evil that he could then present to the paladins to convince them to act, but he already had at least one immediately presentable source of information on Team Evil: Eugene himself, disguised as the BoPLAG. All Eugene had to do was... exactly what the clerics summoned him for in the first place.

Assuming that his own diviners couldn't pin down Xykon/RC by themselves, he also had a much more immediately-accessible secondary source of information in the Oracle, that the Order had to consult in order to know where to look for Xykon anyway. Even if consulting the Oracle was forbidden to the paladins, that evidence is no more tainted than anything the Order could obtain.

Jasdoif

2017-12-28, 08:15 PM

A key thing to remember about Shojo is that he intentionally made Azure City dependent on him personally. Then after the introduction of the senility ruse, people who might have advised him are instead led to try (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html) manipulating him, and/or direct their attention on who they assume are manipulating him. And Shojo actively discourages questioning of his commands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html).

When it comes to his personal agenda, Shojo has excluded judgement other his own. And while he's had a lot of experience dealing with the political climate of Azure City, his secret patronage of the Order leaves him out of his depth.

As for Cloister and the Dungeon of Dorukan...I think an easy explanation is that Dorukan used Cloister only for the underground portion of the dungeon (to dissuade investigation of the "why isn't the huge castle showing up in our scrying?" type), and Xykon did the same because he didn't have the patience to work out the targeting before casting it the first time.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-28, 09:17 PM

@Jasdoif: Yes, but how does that any of that justify Shojo's actual decision-making? Why, in his own judgement, was it rational to withhold information on Xykon and RC from the folks who needed it to do their job, then waste further weeks sending off a single paladin to ride there and kidnap different suspects sans teleportation? There's not much benefit to any of this, and some vast potential drawbacks.

Nor does it make sense from Eugene's perspective. As long as Xykon kicks the bucket, Eugene doesn't care whether Roy is involved, and the first Azurite he bumps into would presumably be the senior cleric that summoned him, with perfectly reasonable questions about how and why the keep was destroyed. How would Shojo coerce him into shutting up and going along with his needlessly byzantine schemes? His only leverage is the threat of un-summoning him, which aside from pitting his word against that of a Being Of Pure Law And Good would make rigging the Order's trial impossible.

It could be true that Cloister was active when the keep blew up, and that might make tracking Xykon difficult, but that's not really the point. The point is that none of what Shojo does improves the odds of doing so. Sending off one paladin to very slowly retrieve six adventurers with questionable qualifications and loyalty to consult the Oracle and track Xykon has no advantages over just teleporting six of your hand-picked underlings to do the same damn thing/s, none of which would be obstructed by the paladins' oaths, because Xykon wasn't presently at another intact Gate.

Look, I'm not gonna say that all of this is intrinsically obvious- I mean, I'm kicking myself it took me this long to notice it- but if Shojo is all he's cracked up to be and/or Eugene has half a brain, then someone in their position, inhabiting that world, and precoccupied with the same problems, ought to be able to connect these dots.

Jasdoif

2017-12-28, 09:47 PM

@Jasdoif: Yes, but how does that any of that justify Shojo's actual decision-making?Why do you think Shojo's actual decision-making inherently needs justification? No, really: What is it about your alternate universe premise that presupposes in-comic Shojo is as perfect a mastermind as he assumes he is?

And for that matter, why do you assume you know what Shojo and Eugene's priorities are?

brian 333

2017-12-28, 10:24 PM

@brian 333: I don't mean that the threat posed by Xykon/RC should have been disclosed to the general public. I just mean that Shojo & Eugene didn't need to keep this secret from the paladins.

Yes, he did if he wanted to maintain control of the paladins who would invariably see Shojo's intended interference in another gate as a violation of their vow of not doing exactly what Shojo was doing.

factotum

2017-12-29, 03:03 AM

Why do you think Shojo's actual decision-making inherently needs justification? No, really: What is it about your alternate universe premise that presupposes in-comic Shojo is as perfect a mastermind as he assumes he is?

Yeah, I agree here. Shojo is portrayed in the strip as a highly flawed character who wants to keep full control over everything that happens without being willing to accept the consequences of that (e.g. the assassination attempts). Hence the "pretending to be senile" thing and using Miko as his personal "Do stuff I can't inform the Sapphire Guard leadership about" operator. In fact, I would go as far to say that using Miko in that way is why she had the God complex she did--she had to be special if the Lord of the City was always asking her to do things rather than getting Hinjo or O-Chul to do it, after all!

Maybe there's a parallel universe where Shojo is some sort of undefeatable mastermind, but we're not reading a story set there.

Ruck

2017-12-29, 06:12 AM

I believe Shojo stated he faked senility in order to deflect blame for his policies and ward off ninja visitors.
Right, and I believe that if it had failed on the latter point, he would have mentioned that to Roy, or adopted a new strategy such that we wouldn't even be talking about him faking senility because we wouldn't have seen it in the comic.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-29, 11:13 AM

Yes, he did if he wanted to maintain control of the paladins who would invariably see Shojo's intended interference in another gate as a violation of their vow of not doing exactly what Shojo was doing.
But the last Gate that Xykon was spotted at had already been blown up, and it didn't stop Miko heading that way, so why would the oath apply?

Yeah, I agree here. Shojo is portrayed in the strip as a highly flawed character who wants to keep full control over everything that happens without being willing to accept the consequences of that (e.g. the assassination attempts). Hence the "pretending to be senile" thing and using Miko as his personal "Do stuff I can't inform the Sapphire Guard leadership about" operator.
But how is Shojo any more in control by adding time, complexity, risk, and outside actors to his plan? "I can't trust anyone in the guard outside Miko to do my bidding, but I can trust six people I've never met whose magnum opus was blowing up one of the Gates?"

Why do you think Shojo's actual decision-making inherently needs justification? No, really: What is it about your alternate universe premise that presupposes in-comic Shojo is as perfect a mastermind as he assumes he is?
Look, I'm sorry if I'm coming off as heavy-handed here, and I do appreciate the feedback. But as far as I can tell, Eugene/Shojo telling the SG about Xykon and the OOTS was simply what would have happened by default. It's what they summoned the BoPLAG for, it's what Eugene knows about, they have no reason to hide the information, and good reasons to share. If something else happened, you need solid reasons to explain why.

More importantly, everyone in the Guard has to be roughly as clueless for this to work. If anyone- Hinjo, O-Chul, Sangwaan, some random junior cleric, the fruit-pie sorceror, Elan- raises a hand and asks why Miko can't just Teleport, then they have to do a double-take and answer that. Even if they're the equivalent of CIA agents, that doesn't mean they can't use Taxis or book an Airline. I'm not saying there's no answer to that, but 'Shojo is dumb' is not adequate.

I do think there are some other partial explanations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22695998&viewfull=1#post22695998), but as for whether any of this is required for an AU storyline... well, no, naturally. If you're changing things, then you're changing things. I'm just figuring out much of the original storyline could be preserved intact, if you're trying to back-port setting-features that show up later in the plot. It might or might not be possible.

Keltest

2017-12-29, 11:38 AM

But the last Gate that Xykon was spotted at had already been blown up, and it didn't stop Miko heading that way, so why would the oath apply? It starts applying the moment Shojo says "we should investigate the other gates." They are, at this point, concerned that something is going on but unwilling to head out and do anything about it without an imminent threat to existence.

But how is Shojo any more in control by adding time, complexity, risk, and outside actors to his plan? "I can't trust anyone in the guard outside Miko to do my bidding, but I can trust six people I've never met whose magnum opus was blowing up one of the Gates?" Its not a question of trust. If he orders the Guard to start interfering with the other gates, they wont do it, period, end of story. If the gate is lost or the defenders can be persuaded to invite them to help, that's different, but the former is undesirable and the latter needs a level of information Shojo cannot technically order obtained due to that same Oath. But if an adventurer group comes to him with that information, well, he didn't interfere, but he's got some good reasons why his paladins should be allowed to help anyway.

Look, I'm sorry if I'm coming off as heavy-handed here, and I do appreciate the feedback. But as far as I can tell, Eugene/Shojo telling the SG about Xykon and the OOTS was simply what would have happened by default. It's what they summoned the BoPLAG for, it's what Eugene knows about, they have no reason to hide the information, and good reasons to share. If something else happened, you need solid reasons to explain why.

More importantly, everyone in the Guard has to be roughly as clueless for this to work. If anyone- Hinjo, O-Chul, Sangwaan, some random junior cleric, the fruit-pie sorceror, Elan- raises a hand and asks why Miko can't just Teleport, then they have to do a double-take and answer that. Even if they're the equivalent of CIA agents, that doesn't mean they can't use Taxis or book an Airline. I'm not saying there's no answer to that, but 'Shojo is dumb' is not adequate.

I do think there are some other partial explanations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22695998&viewfull=1#post22695998), but as for whether any of this is required for an AU storyline... well, no, naturally. If you're changing things, then you're changing things. I'm just figuring out much of the original storyline could be preserved intact, if you're trying to back-port setting-features that show up later in the plot. It might or might not be possible.

There is one wizard who can cast teleport, and he isn't in the Guard. Miko's mission wasn't time sensitive and they deliberately want to keep her busy out doing things instead of being bored and harassing the other paladins. A better question is, why should they be teleporting Miko? Xykon had just lost all his minions and his body, so they've got time.

brian 333

2017-12-29, 12:14 PM

@Lacuna:

The point you seem to miss here is that Miko, outside of her role as Shojo's errand runner, was a huge liability. She had to be gotten out of the way or she could blow the whole deal... like she eventually did.

As for the secrecy: like the guy said when asked who ordered the Watergate cover up, "Nobody ordered us not to cover up."

Habitual or customary practices often screw up things simply because the unique situation requires a non standard approach. But Shojo's paranoia renders him incapable of acting in an open and trusting way, especially when the available information showed that it was too late to help at the previous gate and the vows of the Paladin prevented their attempting to help at the next.

Present as many well considered and logical alternatives as you like. They would be out of character for a paranoid autocrat who displays a limited ability to delegate.

factotum

2017-12-29, 01:12 PM

But how is Shojo any more in control by adding time, complexity, risk, and outside actors to his plan? "I can't trust anyone in the guard outside Miko to do my bidding, but I can trust six people I've never met whose magnum opus was blowing up one of the Gates?"

He can trust the Order not to tell the Sapphire Guard what he's up to. As brian 333 says, the act of keeping stuff secret from the Guard was so deeply ingrained in Shojo by this point that virtually anything was better in his eyes. You'll also note that he's doing this stuff to help out Eugene, who is also a person he's never met and who disrupted a lawful summoning ritual in order to interfere...not things that the average Paladin is likely to see as being good or necessary.

Jasdoif

2017-12-29, 02:28 PM

But as far as I can tell, Eugene/Shojo telling the SG about Xykon and the OOTS was simply what would have happened by default. It's what they summoned the BoPLAG for, it's what Eugene knows about, they have no reason to hide the information, and good reasons to share. If something else happened, you need solid reasons to explain why.I think a likely sequence of events is as follows:

The Order destroys Dorukan's Gate
The monitoring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) device (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html) in Azure City revealed that Dorukan's Gate wasn't functioning.
Shojo becomes worried about the integrity of the Snarl's prison.
Diviners in Azure City scried the wreckage of the castle and detected the Order, but not Xykon.
It may be worth noting that Eugene was never able to magically locate throughout Start of Darkness, and Dorukan was still alive until the very end of the book; it's not necessarily Cloister that's protecting Xykon from divinations.
Shojo believes the Order is already aware of the nature of the Gates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html), due to their involvement.
Shojo's clerics attempt to summon a celestial to "dispense advice" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html)...and get Eugene instead.
Shojo and Eugene talk privately, and Eugene tells Shojo what he knows about the Order (plenty) and Xykon (not so much).
Eugene's only interest in Team Evil is Xykon, because of the Blood Oath. Even if Eugene noticed "a goblin in a red cloak" and even if Shojo specifically asked for such a vague description; Eugene would get the impression (from Shojo asking) that said goblin was more important to Shojo than Xykon, and feign ignorance rather than risk distraction from his own goals.
Shojo decides, from his belief that the Order already knew about the Gates and the tenor of Eugene's description, that the Order is a resource who can check on the other Gates without spreading knowledge of the Gates existence nor bound to follow Soon's oath to not interfere with those Gates; above and beyond Xykon (who wouldn't be located until he was coming at Azure City with an army of hobgoblins).
This is important: Shojo sees an ongoing use for the Order with regards to the Gates, as he can pay them to tell him about what he imagines they were doing on their own.
Shojo and Eugene conspire to rig a trial as an excuse to bring the Order to Azure City: Eugene will pose as a judge for the trial.
Presumably, the individual clerics who summoned Eugene are never present at the trial to witness the subterfuge. It's a city of a quarter million people, Shojo reasonably has a wide enough roster to pull this off.
Shojo dispatches Miko to "extradite" the Order.
On the subject of teleporting...Since the size of the Order is known, it could be known that the Order and a paladin would exceed the number of creatures possible on a single teleport...and from there, that Shojo could be unwilling to pay for enough teleport spells or multiple casters, and unwilling to risk secrecy on hiring a wizard (or more) for this particular mission if the Order is to be brought back overland anyway.

If it helps, assume Shojo also dispatched a team of his own to track down Xykon from the wreckage of the Dungeon of Dorukan; who never found the trail because it was obliterated by the Gate exploding in the same room where Xykon and company entered the tunnel they escaped through. And then several floors of dungeon collapsed on top of it.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-29, 03:11 PM

It starts applying the moment Shojo says "we should investigate the other gates." They are, at this point, concerned that something is going on but unwilling to head out and do anything about it without an imminent threat to existence... ...If he orders the Guard to start interfering with the other gates, they wont do it, period, end of story.
But he doesn't have to say 'go investigate the other Gates'. All he has to say is 'go hunt down this Xykon fellow, who can't have gotten far from the ruins of Dorukan's Keep. Our celestial advisor will brief you on the details, and my wizard will provide transport to the nearest town.' No oath-breaking or info-leaks required, (though it's not like copious security was being maintained within the main story.)

Of course Miko's mission is time-sensitive. Leaving aside that Xykon would regenerate soon, the longer it takes her to get to the scene the more likely it is that the trail will be cold and witnesses will have forgotten important details.

Shojo and Eugene talk privately, and Eugene tells Shojo what he knows about the Order (plenty) and Xykon (not so much).
Eugene's only interest in Team Evil is Xykon, because of the Blood Oath. Even if Eugene noticed "a goblin in a red cloak" and even if Shojo specifically asked for such a vague description; Eugene would get the impression (from Shojo asking) that said goblin was more important to Shojo than Xykon, and feign ignorance rather than risk distraction from his own goals.
Why would he do that? Xykon and RC were working together- if anything, that's added incentive for Shojo to greenlight the mission, and therefore for Eugene to mention Redcloak. It might not happen, but Xykon alone, being the evil lich who conquered the keep's defences, is reason enough to get moving.

It's perfectly plausible that Shojo might want to co-opt the Order in addition to sending his paladins after Xykon, but nothing about this prevents the BoPLAG from telling the paladins (A) that the Order were not deliberately trying to wreck reality, and (B) that they have a narrow window for smiting the BBEG. If he's relying on the BoPLAG illusion being convincing enough to dupe the paladins for the trial, then Eugene can basically tell them what he likes, filling in ancillary details as required.

On the subject of teleporting...Since the size of the Order is known, it could be known that the Order and a paladin would exceed the number of creatures possible on a single teleport...and from there, that Shojo could be unwilling to pay for enough teleport spells or multiple casters, and unwilling to risk secrecy on hiring a wizard (or more) for this particular mission if the Order is to be brought back overland anyway.
So? Worst-case scenario is that you send back the Wizard alone and complete the mission on foot. I don't see a downside there.

I'm not going to assume that Shojo dispatched another team after Xykon. Aside from never being mentioned, that's the mission you send Miko on, while Hinjo or O-Chul go after the Order.

@brian 333, factotum: I think what you're driving at is an elaborate way of saying that Shojo is crazy, and that's totes possible, but it's not just his decision. Eugene has to agree to all this as well, and he's hard to get rid of without scuppering his trial-rigging scheme or raising awkward questions.

Keltest

2017-12-29, 03:35 PM

Once again, he doesn't have to say 'go investigate the other Gates'. All he has to say is 'go hunt down this Xykon fellow, who can't have gotten far from the ruins of Dorukan's Gate. Our celestial advisor will brief you on the details, and my wizard will provide transport to the nearest town.' No oath-breaking or info-leaks required, (though it's not like copious security was being maintained within the main story.)

Of course Miko's mission is time-sensitive. Leaving aside that Xykon would regenerate soon, the longer it takes her to get to the scene the more likely it is that the trail will be cold and witnesses will have forgotten important details.

You do realize that none of the Guard except for Miko have any tracking abilities whatsoever, right? And she only has the one rank in Survival, so her chances of actually tracking Xykon are pretty close to nill. We're even shown a flashback panel to a couple of paladins being comically unable to obtain any information from Lirian's gate in spite of some fairly obvious clues that redcloak was involved.

And while Miko's ability to complete her mission becomes harder over time, there is no actual deadline for bringing the Order back. She can take as long as she needs to in order to complete her mission successfully.

Why would he do that? Xykon and RC were working together- if anything, that's added incentive for Shojo to greenlight the mission, and therefore for Eugene to mention Redcloak. It might not happen, but Xykon alone, being the evil lich who conquered the keep's defences, is reason enough to get moving. Do we even know that Eugene knows about Redcloak? The extent of his knowledge is shown to be far more limited than he would like.

It's perfectly plausible that Shojo might want to co-opt the Order in addition to sending his paladins after Xykon, but nothing about this prevents the BoPLAG from telling the paladins (A) that the Order were not deliberately trying to wreck reality, and (B) that they have a narrow window for smiting the BBEG. If he's relying on the BoPLAG illusion being convincing enough to dupe the paladins for the trial, then Eugene can basically tell them what he likes, filling in ancillary details as required. And he did. The Order was exonerated, remember? The problem is doing anything else. The SG has no means of tracking Xykon (and don't say the Oracle. That's what they ended up going with, remember?) and if he's going after any of the other gates they cant personally assist.

So? Worst-case scenario is that you send back the Wizard alone and complete the mission on foot. I don't see a downside there.

And no, I am not going to assume that Shojo dispatched another team after Xykon. Aside from never being mentioned, that's the mission you send Miko on, while Hinjo or O-Chul go after the Order.

All of these plans have a very crucial flaw: once they find Xykon, what do they do? The Guard isn't allowed to interfere with the defenses of the other gates, so they can only go after him if he is threatening their gate specifically.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-29, 03:47 PM

You do realize that none of the Guard except for Miko have any tracking abilities whatsoever, right?
Yes, Keltest. I do (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22701002&viewfull=1#post22701002). She still has more points in Survival than Belkar, which is the best independent tracking service the Order can provide. I don't mean to be insulting, but I'm afraid this discussion seems to be going in circles.

I'm pretty sure that if the SG actually spotted Xykon working with the Crimson Mantle to march on another Gate, that would give them adequate pretext to intervene (though whether that's tactically wise is another matter). But ideally, they'd track him down within his window of regeneration, while he's still vulnerable, before he can march or teleport on another Gate.

Peelee

2017-12-29, 03:50 PM

Do we even know that Eugene knows about Redcloak? The extent of his knowledge is shown to be far more limited than he would like.

Even if Eugene does know about Redcloak, he would also have to know about the Sapphire Guard's relationship with the Crimson Mantle to know that pulling out that info would help.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-29, 03:58 PM

Even if Eugene does know about Redcloak, he would also have to know about the Sapphire Guard's relationship with the Crimson Mantle to know that pulling out that info would help.
Not if he has a conversation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22691756&viewfull=1#post22691756) with anyone in the Sapphire Guard.

Peelee

2017-12-29, 04:00 PM

Not if he has a conversation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22691756&viewfull=1#post22691756) with anyone in the Sapphire Guard.

So he likely didn't have a conversation with anyone in the Sapphire Guard. Problem solved.

Keltest

2017-12-29, 04:01 PM

Yes, Keltest. I do (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22701002&viewfull=1#post22701002). She still has more points in Survival than Belkar, which is the best independent tracking service the Order can provide. I don't mean to be insulting, but I'm afraid this discussion seems to be going in circles.

I'm pretty sure that if the SG actually spotted Xykon working with the Crimson Mantle to march on another Gate, that would give them adequate pretext to intervene (though whether that's tactically wise is another matter). But ideally, they'd track him down within his window of regeneration, while he's still vulnerable, before he can march or teleport on another Gate.

I mean, you don't seem to be accepting "the SG has no plausible tracking ability to speak of" as a reason for why they cant track Xykon. I'm not even really sure how to respond to this other than to keep repeating myself. The Order isn't tracking Xykon any more than the SG is. They don't care where he is, they care where he is going. Hence the Oracle.

I feel like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Shojo's goals are in contacting the Order. Assassinating Xykon simply isn't on their agenda.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-29, 04:10 PM

So he likely didn't have a conversation with anyone in the Sapphire Guard. Problem solved.
Shojo is in the Sapphire Guard.

I mean, you don't seem to be accepting "the SG has no plausible tracking ability to speak of" as a reason for why they cant track Xykon.
Given that Shojo's actual plan to find Xykon was to co-opt a bunch of adventurers who were even worse at tracking, yes, I don't consider that a serious roadblock.

I'm pretty sure the paladins would have no strong objections to hunting down a mass-murdering deathless abomination who might be possibly connected with a larger plot to undo reality. Seems like an agreeable way to kill time. Hell, you'd probably have to tie Miko up to stop her.

Peelee

2017-12-29, 04:13 PM

Shojo is in the Sapphire Guard.

Technically not, as he's not a divine caster. That's like saying the President of the US is in the military. Anyway, he clearly didn't mention anything directly to Eugene, and it's easily plausible that Eugene wasn't paying much attention to the trial, since he was going to disregard everything anyway.

Keltest

2017-12-29, 04:28 PM

Shojo is in the Sapphire Guard.

Given that Shojo's actual plan to find Xykon was to co-opt a bunch of adventurers who were even worse at tracking, yes, I don't consider that a serious roadblock.

I'm pretty sure the paladins would have no strong objections to hunting down a mass-murdering deathless abomination who might be possibly connected with a larger plot to undo reality. Seems like an agreeable way to kill time. Hell, you'd probably have to tie Miko up to stop her.

As I recall, charging across continents to hunt down creatures and monsters that may or may not actually be related to the Azure City gate is behavior that Shojo and others were specifically trying to curb in the SG. Certainly its behavior that Rich has made an effort to portray as negative.

Even if not, Shojo's concern was that the defenses of the other gates were inadequate, not that Xykon specifically was going after them. That's not a problem the paladins can solve, because they specifically swore an oath to not do that exact thing. It is perhaps somewhat egotistical of him to assume that the remaining gates are not adequately defended, but given that two of them have now fallen, its not entirely unreasonable for him to be concerned.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-29, 04:48 PM

Technically not, as he's not a divine caster. That's like saying the President of the US is in the military...
Yes, but imagine said President, at the height of the Cold War, looking at a nuclear blast site and never asking his source whether the commies were involved. That's the level of oversight we're talking about here.

As I recall, charging across continents to hunt down creatures and monsters that may or may not actually be related to the Azure City gate is behavior that Shojo and others were specifically trying to curb in the SG...
So he preferred to have his agents charge across continents to hunt down persons that he knew were mostly non-evil, without informing his agents as such? I'm sure that sends a much better message.

I agree that it's entirely reasonable for him to be concerned about the remaining Gates. But the best way to protect them was to stamp out Xykon before he got there, which happily would not even violate his paladins' oaths. To repeat. This would in no way violate their oaths.

factotum

2017-12-29, 04:51 PM

@brian 333, factotum: I think what you're driving at is an elaborate way of saying that Shojo is crazy, and that's totes possible, but it's not just his decision. Eugene has to agree to all this as well, and he's hard to get rid of without scuppering his trial-rigging scheme or raising awkward questions.

Can't speak for brian 333, but no, I'm not saying Shojo is crazy, nor do I believe that he is. He's just an old man who has been doing things the sneaky-sneaky way so long that he doesn't even think of doing it any other way. Eugene won't argue against Shojo's methods because (a) he's there on sufferance--he can be dismissed back to his "home plane" (the cloud) and the real deva summoned in his stead if Shojo chooses to do so, and (b) because he doesn't particularly care about the method used so long as somebody, somewhere, is trying to get closer to the goal of destroying Xykon for good.

Keltest

2017-12-29, 04:56 PM

So he preferred to have his agents charge across continents to hunt down persons that he knew were mostly non-evil, without informing his agents as such? I'm sure that sends a much better message.

I agree that it's entirely reasonable for him to be concerned about the remaining Gates. But the best way to protect them was to stamp out Xykon before he got there, which happily would not even violate his paladins' oaths. To repeat. This would in no way violate their oaths.

What Shojo knew is not what the Paladins knew. As far as they were aware, Miko was sent to retrieve -alive- a group who, through ignorance or malice threatened the safety of the gates so they could defend themselves in trial.

More to the point, The Order + the defenders of whichever gate Xykon goes to next are going to have a much better chance of stopping Xykon than just the Order or just the defenders of that gate. Leaving your fortified position to go meet the enemy in theirs is extremely foolish if youre the defender.

Jasdoif

2017-12-29, 04:56 PM

Why would he do that?Suppose Eugene doesn't know Shojo's agenda in advance, that Eugene wouldn't even know Redcloak had any involvement past "chief minion" before Shojo mentioned it (assuming Shojo ever mentioned it), that Eugene knows his ego was never able to track down Xykon while he's never even tried to track down Redcloak, and that Eugene doesn't want to risk Shojo deciding that dealing with Redcloak is "good enough" for Shojo.

Eugene cares about one thing: getting into the afterlife, by ending Xykon. Delaying/preventing the world from being destroyed without removing Xykon is actually a negative from Eugene's point of view. Sending the paladins (or the Order) off on a chase towards someone they can't track is actually preferable to him; comparing to helping them keep the world and Xykon intact. Eugene's carelessness in the whole ploy is likely a result of him not caring. If his ruse is discovered, what does he care? The Sapphire Guard is a bunch of paladins; if they somehow manage to find Xykon, they'll feel morally obligated to try to take him down (just like you said), whether they want to spite Eugene for upstaging their judicial system or not.

Peelee

2017-12-29, 04:57 PM

Yes, but imagine said President, at the height of the Cold War, looking at a nuclear blast site and never asking his source whether the commies were involved. That's the level of oversight we're talking about here.

With that same President being so incredibly paranoid that he acts like he is insane in order to prevent the senators from murdering him so that they may ascend to the Presidency through power plays and... this analogy is pretty broken at this point.

ETA: if you're accusing Shojo of being a crazy old man with ridiculously convoluted plans and he did not make some good or smart choices, I don't think you'll have much opposition.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 11:08 AM

Can't speak for brian 333, but no, I'm not saying Shojo is crazy, nor do I believe that he is. He's just an old man who has been doing things the sneaky-sneaky way so long that he doesn't even think of doing it any other way. Eugene won't argue against Shojo's methods because (a) he's there on sufferance--he can be dismissed back to his "home plane" (the cloud) and the real deva summoned in his stead if Shojo chooses to do so, and (b) because he doesn't particularly care about the method used so long as somebody, somewhere, is trying to get closer to the goal of destroying Xykon for good.
But Shojo can't dismiss Eugene without wrecking his plan to rig the Order's trial. He also can't dismiss him at all, because he's not a cleric. Is the hyper-paranoid Shojo going to be happy explaining to his clerics why a celestial being is objecting to it's own dismissal? How would he stop the BoPLAG blurting out whatever he liked in the middle of the trial? He might be able to cow Eugene initially, but not once he actually needs him for something.

Eugene has been pretty supportive of using the most straightforward, anything-goes-expedited, no-kill-like-overkill methods for going after Xykon, and dismissive of Roy's ability to accomplish that. Why would he be okay with only Roy and his cohorts being very belatedly dispatched to perform that task? He's also a high-level wizard, which has to mean he knows about arcane magic. If all he wanted was to nudge Roy back on the right track, why not just Send to him? If he agreed to keeping the paladins in the dark, why didn't he insist on using Teleport to minimise downtime?

What Shojo knew is not what the Paladins knew. As far as they were aware, Miko was sent to retrieve -alive- a group who, through ignorance or malice threatened the safety of the gates so they could defend themselves in trial.
I don't think Miko was sent to retrieve them alive. She states that Shojo 'ordered their execution', and that she was entitled to pass sentence so long as they had an evil alignment. Why are we taking the word of a pathological manipulator over hers?

Keltest

2017-12-30, 11:12 AM

I don't think Miko was sent to retrieve them alive. She states that Shojo 'ordered their execution', and that she was entitled to pass sentence so long as they had an evil alignment. Why are we taking the word of a pathological manipulator over hers?
Because we are shown a scene where he specifically orders she take them alive if at all possible? Miko is overzealous, and he says as much when confronted over it, but there were also a series of unlikely encounters that led Miko to believe that the Order was rampaging around the countryside committing evil that Shojo didn't know about.

Peelee

2017-12-30, 11:36 AM

Because we are shown a scene where he specifically orders she take them alive if at all possible? Miko is overzealous, and he says as much when confronted over it, but there were also a series of unlikely encounters that led Miko to believe that the Order was rampaging around the countryside committing evil that Shojo didn't know about.

Besides, this isn't the first time that Miko attempted to kill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html) someone who she was ordered to bring to Shojo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html).

Keltest

2017-12-30, 11:41 AM

Besides, this isn't the first time that Miko attempted to kill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html) someone who she was ordered to bring to Shojo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html).

Actually, it is the first time. That happened later. :smalltongue:

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 12:20 PM

Besides, that's a scene where Miko relents from trying to kill Belkar (and all his companions) because Shojo orders her to. And this is when Miko is much, much angrier with them than their first encounter.

I don't consider 'mr scruffy says' to be reliable, because I don't think that any of Shojo's backstory can really be trusted. The author has already implied that the Crayon narrative is doctored, and as I've outlined, he and Eugene have to behave in a systemically baffling fashion if they really met at the end of book one.

EDIT: On an incidental note... there would actually have been one member of the Guard who could likely track more effectively than Miko: Argent, Hinjo's mount. Dire wolves get (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWolf.htm) the Track feat and a +4 racial bonus to Survival when using scent, assuming he invested no other skill points gained from bonus HD.

He'd still have be rolling natural 20s to make any progress (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Track_(SRD_Feat)) after arriving on-scene weeks later, but, well, food for thought.

.

Keltest

2017-12-30, 12:23 PM

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 12:23 PM

I don't consider the 'mr scruffy says' scene to be reliable, because I don't think that any of Shojo's backstory can really be trusted. The author has already implied that the Crayon narrative is doctored, and as I've outlined, he and Eugene have to behave in a systemically baffling fashion if they really met at the end of book one.

These flashback scenes:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html

are not in crayon though.

And at the start of book 3 - bonus strips - we do see Eugene and Shojo talking - Shojo says their business is concluded - Eugene says it isn't - Shojo tricks Eugene into "having completed a task requested" (he's a Summoned creature, summoned creatures that complete a task requested, disappear).

The strip is called "Ass Dismissed".

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 12:41 PM

And at the start of book 3 - bonus strips - we do see Eugene and Shojo talking - Shojo says their business is concluded - Eugene says it isn't - Shojo tricks Eugene into "having completed a task requested" (he's a Summoned creature, summoned creatures that complete a task requested, disappear).

The strip is called "Ass Dismissed".
Yeah, but Eugene had already completed a task requested of him when he acted as judge at the trial. Why wouldn't that make him disappear?

Look, I'm not saying the author actually thought of the materials this way at the time, or even that he does now. But yes, I do find it easier to gloss over those non-crayon panels than I do to imagine that these two characters could be so obtuse.

Keltest

2017-12-30, 12:45 PM

Yeah, but Eugene had already completed a task requested of him when he acted as judge at the trial. Why wouldn't that make him disappear?

Look, I'm not saying the author actually thought of the materials this way at the time, or even that he does now. But yes, I do find it easier to gloss over those non-crayon panels than I do to imagine that these two characters could be so obtuse.

If you want to do that, that's your prerogative, but don't expect "just ignore parts of the comic" to go very far in convincing anybody else to your way of thinking.

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 12:48 PM

Yeah, but Eugene had already completed a task requested of him when he acted as judge at the trial. Why wouldn't that make him disappear?

Shojo had probably made his initial request open-ended enough that Eugene could say "my task isn't fulfilled yet".

As Eugene has said, from the beginning "I don't expect ROY to destroy Xykon - I expect Roy to (in the process of losing a lot) get information that I can pass on to Julia so SHE can destroy Xykon when she's old enough".

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 12:54 PM

I'd contend you already have to ignore large parts of the comic to make their behaviour seem reasonable. I'd rather say 'two known liars are lying in those panels'.

Mind you, even if Eugene visited Shojo much later, there are still points that have to be accounted for- notably, why Eugene wouldn't have more up-to-date intel on Xykon and share that with Roy, and why Miko would possibly put up delivering mail to the northern lands unless she genuinely doesn't know that Teleport spells exist. This is, however, still less baffling than the alternatives.

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 12:58 PM

even if Eugene visited Shojo much later, there are still points that have to be accounted for- notably, why Eugene wouldn't have more up-to-date intel on Xykon and share that with Roy, and why Miko would possibly put up delivering mail to the northern lands unless she genuinely doesn't know that Teleport spells exist.

Miko's willing to obey orders she thinks are stupid, from a superior. As long as they are not outright evil.

That's pretty much standard for Lawful, going by Fiendish Codex 2 - obeying orders you think are "stupid" are "Obesiant acts" that draw characters closer to Lawful alignment.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 01:00 PM

Shojo had probably made his initial request open-ended enough that Eugene could say "my task isn't fulfilled yet".
Yes, but then the open-ended task in question wouldn't be finished yet. It's not obvious to me that the terms of one would override the other.

This is kind of missing the point, though- if Shojo is relying on a task that Eugene agrees to in order to dismiss him, then Eugene has to legitimately agree to the task, and gets some leverage in negotiating over that. Which brings me back to my earlier points about how Eugene would probably want some more direct action here.

factotum

2017-12-30, 01:02 PM

I'd contend you already have to ignore large parts of the comic to make their behaviour seem reasonable.

And as far as I can see there isn't a single person in this thread who is agreeing with you on that point. Why do you suppose that is? Are we all that stupid that we're just taking things as portrayed without any critical thought being applied, or do we just see all this differently than you do?

As for dismissing Eugene "wrecking Shojo's plan"--the plan to have the fake trial was Eugene's, not Shojo's. As far as we know, before the Order actually arrived in Azure City no-one there other than Shojo and Miko knew they existed, so he had plenty of time to dismiss Eugene and come up with another plan if he felt like it.

Keltest

2017-12-30, 01:03 PM

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 01:05 PM

Yes, but then the open-ended task in question wouldn't be finished yet. It's not obvious to me that the terms of one would override the other.

Shojo's trick is simply asking Eugene "Could you repeat that" when he says "I'm not going anywhere."

He does, then realises what he's done (which suggests that once Eugene was summoned into the Circle, Shojo never gave him a service he must perform in the first place - his participation in the trial is entirely agreement rather than orders).

The Giant has made it clear how much of a "pompous jerk" Eugene is - in book 2, in the context of that very scene - I think his word can be taken for it when he explains what he's put Roy through and why, proving himself to be the jerk The Giant claims him to be.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 01:10 PM

Miko's willing to obey orders she thinks are stupid, from a superior. As long as they are not outright evil.
Yet you are presupposing that Miko is willing to ignore Shojo's orders when it came to taking the Order alive? Is she unwaveringly obedient, or is she just interpreting things how she likes?

Even if Shojo did give her orders to deliver the letter in person, I'm not seeing what stops her from independently finding a wizard who's capable of providing Teleport services and getting to the nearest dwarven settlement. If your boss tells you to go meet with an executive on a different continent, and you can't fly, your reaction isn't to start driving overland. Your reaction is "well, how to I get to an airport"? Even if it takes you several days to get there, your reaction is still, "how do I get to an airport?" Even if it means calling up people you don't really know. Even if it means going to another city. Even if it means asking someone with an airplane to meet up with you, your reaction is still, "how do I get to an airport?"

.

Keltest

2017-12-30, 01:12 PM

Yet you are presupposing that Miko is willing to ignore Shojo's orders when it came to taking the Order alive? Is she unwaveringly obedient, or is she just interpreting things how she likes?

Even if Shojo did give her orders to deliver the letter in person, I'm not seeing what stops her from independently finding a wizard who's capable of providing Teleport services and getting to the nearest dwarven settlement. If your boss tells you to go meet with an executive on a different continent, and you can't fly, your reaction isn't to start driving overland. Your reaction is "well, how to I get to an airport"? Even if it takes you several days to get there, your reaction is still, "how do I got to an airport?" Even if it means calling up people you don't really know. Even if it means going to another city. Even if it means asking someone with an airplane to meet up with you, your reaction is still, "how do I got to an airport?"

Miko gave the Order a chance to surrender. She made only a token effort at following Shojo's orders because she believed the Order to be a group of evil fiends rampaging across the landscape, but she did offer them the chance to come peacefully.

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 01:14 PM

Yet you are presupposing that Miko is willing to ignore Shojo's orders when it came to taking the Order alive? Is she unwaveringly obedient, or is she just interpreting things how she likes?

Shojo said "if possible" - Miko's redefining "possible" in a self-serving way, to support her own prejudices.

Miko gave the Order a chance to surrender. She made only a token effort at following Shojo's orders because she believed the Order to be a group of evil fiends rampaging across the landscape, but she did offer them the chance to come peacefully.

Going by this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?6495-Order-of-the-Stick-November-II&p=291639&highlight=Windstriker#post291639

she was, for the second fight, going full-out-deadly until the Order surrendered.

Even if Shojo did give her orders to deliver the letter in person, I'm not seeing what stops her from independently finding a wizard who's capable of providing Teleport services and getting to the nearest dwarven settlement. If your boss tells you to go meet with an executive on a different continent, and you can't fly, your reaction isn't to start driving overland. Your reaction is "well, how to I get to an airport"?

Considering that the Battle For Azure City takes place only a week after the New Year - it seems likely that she did use the resources she was given to shorten the total travel time from "time taken to ride all the way to the far North and back.

Kish

2017-12-30, 01:19 PM

I think "full-out-deadly" is an exaggeration. She didn't treat Durkon as an enemy despite his healing the Order during the fight, nor did she pause to coup de grace people who Durkon might have (and did) get back into the fight with healing.

Which only supports: Miko considered herself in compliance with the letter of Shojo's orders, in that she didn't pull her punches but always planned to haul anyone who finished the fight in negative hit points but not dead (+Durkon) back to him and say "these were the ones I was able to bring back."

Beyond that, I think the only thing that would satisfy Lacuna is a fundamentally different and much worse story, in which no one ever does anything that trips his personal "this is irrational" sensor, anyone who dies does so because of their numerical inferiority to someone they have no way out of fighting and thus no one dies because of their own flaws (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412425-The-irony-of-bozzok-being-right&p=19189873#post19189873) (because nobody has flaws).

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 01:24 PM

And as far as I can see there isn't a single person in this thread who is agreeing with you on that point.
To be fair, it took me quite some time to notice this. I'm afraid that if rigging the trial was Eugene's idea, you just shift the burden of explanation for his behaviour. You're not getting any closer to having it make sense.

Miko gave the Order a chance to surrender. She made only a token effort at following Shojo's orders because she believed the Order to be a group of evil fiends rampaging across the landscape, but she did offer them the chance to come peacefully.
She states out loud that her master has ordered their execution. If, as most of you are maintaining, Shojo ordered the exact opposite, she is clearly interpreting her master's order very, very loosely. Why, then, is she willing to traipse over hundreds of miles on a mission she knows perfectly well to be a massive waste of her time?

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 01:26 PM

To be fair, it took me quite some time to notice this. I'm afraid that if rigging the trial was Eugene's idea, you just shift the burden of explanation for his behaviour. You're not getting any closer to having it make sense.
When it comes to Eugene "be a jerk to Roy" often trumps "make sense".

She states out loud that her master has ordered their execution.

She's leaving out the "after trial, conviction, and sentencing" bit, in casual conversation (explaining to the weasel why she's been asking questions).

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 01:44 PM

Considering that the Battle For Azure City takes place only a week after the New Year - it seems likely that she did use the resources she was given to shorten the total travel time from "time taken to ride all the way to the far North and back.
Where's the timeline on that? Doesn't she state in another flashback that she was riding for, what, four days? And don't the Order make a trip to the Oracle and back first?

She's leaving out the "after trial, conviction, and sentencing" bit, in casual conversation (explaining to the weasel why she's been asking questions).
That's not what she says. If we're going to use (no pun intended) weasel words here, I can equally imagine Shojo adding 'unless the suspects are, like, bald or evil, in which case you should totally execute them.' Miko has her flaws, but I don't think you can reasonably call her less honest than Shojo.

Beyond that, I think the only thing that would satisfy Lacuna is a fundamentally different and much worse story, in which no one ever does anything that trips his personal "this is irrational" sensor..
Well, I'm glad we can all judge the merits of a story that doesn't exist.

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 01:48 PM

Where's the timeline on that? Doesn't she state in another flashback that she was riding for, what, four days? And don't the Order make a trip to the Oracle and back first?

Here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8569129&postcount=19

Peelee

2017-12-30, 01:53 PM

Besides, that's a scene where Miko relents from trying to kill Belkar (and all his companions) because Shojo orders her to.

It's not, though. Shojo reaffirms the previous orders, which were to deliver the halfling to the throne room. Miko was attempting to kill the halfling. Shojo stops her, yes, but it's not new orders.

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 02:03 PM

Miko is "under orders to "bring those responsible to justice" "

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=292847&postcount=649

The "execution" bit is more her knowing what the "standard penalty" is for endangering the world, and assuming that there are no extenuating circumstances, and that the Order will be convicted.

If Shojo hadn't given the "bring them in alive if possible" amendment, there would have been no reason to explain to them that they can surrender, in the first place.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 02:08 PM

Whatever else you can say for the throne-room scene, it certainly doesn't signify a willingness to ignore orders. And as a paladin, Miko has to extend fair warning to her opponents regardless of alignment. Shojo's orders have nothing to with that.

Here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8569129&postcount=19
Cool, thanks!

Now, if y'all had been saying, "this was the early days of the strip, the author tends make up stuff in a somewhat ad-hoc manner, and may not have been 100% on top of all possible retroactive inconsistencies"... then we would be in honest agreement. None of that is a crime. So, let's move on.

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 02:14 PM

And as a paladin, Miko has to extend fair warning to her opponents regardless of alignment.

That's entirely Miko's weird code of honour - Origin of PCs shows Elan doing exactly the same thing on behalf of his Paladin boss - and getting bawled out for it.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0214.html

the point is that Miko is not regular Lawful - she's Lawful in an over-the-top way, which regular Paladins don't necessarily follow.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 02:18 PM

That's entirely Miko's weird code of honour - Origin of PCs shows Elan doing exactly the same thing on behalf of his Paladin boss - and getting bawled out for it.
There have been many persons on this forum who have argued very strongly that giving opponents fair warning is an intrinsic aspect of the paladin code, and that Miko didn't do nearly enough to talk things out with the Order first. Whatever. Point is, that's not on Shojo.

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 02:21 PM

Giving them warning at all is on Shojo - if he'd really ordered her to execute them, and not bring any of them back for trial - some of them would be dead.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 02:24 PM

Peelee

2017-12-30, 02:26 PM

Whatever else you can say for the throne-room scene, it certainly doesn't signify a willingness to ignore orders.

Sure it does. It just doesn't signify a willingness to ignore orders immediately after being reminded of them by her boss standing directly in front of her. Unless you wish to contend that she would not have murdered Belkar if nobody had intervened.

ETA: "Subvert" would be a better word than ignore, though.

Jeez, people, why is this so hard?
If every single person argues with you on a point, regardless of what that point is, and especially on a point that you think should be gobstoppingly simple to grasp, at what point do you stop and think, "maybe I am wrong?" Not say that to others, just be open to the possibility of it. Just wondering.

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 02:27 PM

No, it is not. If you're quoting Miko's willingness to give the Ogres warning as a sign of her extremely rigid adhesion to that aspect of the code, it follows that she'd have extended the same nominal courtesy to the Order regardless of whether Shojo wanted them dead or alive.

She didn't offer the ogres a chance to surrender. She did the Order.

Because her instructions were to bring them to Azure City for trial, and only kill them if this becomes impossible.

Being "Only borderline Good" is, in many ways, the point of Miko's character, as the Giant pointed out in one of the above links.

One of the ways this manifests, is taking her orders, and bending them, just a little, to make "having to kill" more likely.

Such as, announcing loudly, in effect "You are sentenced to die - surrender, or be killed immediately"

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 02:37 PM

If you're going to argue based on technicalities, Belkar was already delivered to the throne room. Shojo never said 'alive'. If you're going to make reasonable allowance for what Shojo intended, then he wasn't aware of Belkar's escape at the time he gave those orders. Miko made some bad calls here, but pursuing Belkar post-haste was not one of them.

I don't know if Miko would have killed him or not. Given she considered herself entitled to kill evil creatures sans trial out in the wilderness, and Belkar had already escaped confinement, it wouldn't bother me especially. Point is, she stood down.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 02:58 PM

If every single person argues with you on a point, regardless of what that point is, and especially on a point that you think should be gobstoppingly simple to grasp, at what point do you stop and think, "maybe I am wrong?"...
When they present honest evidence instead of clutching at straws and making specious excuses.

She didn't offer the ogres a chance to surrender. She did the Order.
Leaving aside that the Ogres technically had plenty of time to surrender if they wanted, she also offers the MiTD a chance to stand aside, which also had nothing to do with Shojo. She doesn't actually drop this habit until post-Fall.

And again, Miko declares, in crystal-clear terms, my master has ordered their execution. That's not a typo, folks.

Miko always had her problems, but I'm having trouble objectively distinguishing how her behaviour was less heroic than anyone else in the Order during the early strip. (Hey, cool, Roy is willing to risk temporary embarrassment rescuing Elan from a peril he was only in to begin with because Roy was impersonating a monarch! Miko merely risks permanent immolation for total strangers. Aww, that nasty Miko barely gave the Order warning before she attacked. She should be like Roy, who prefers to slit his enemies' throats while sleeping.)

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 03:03 PM

And again, Miko declares, in crystal-clear terms, my master has ordered their execution. That's not a typo, folks.

I find it easier to believe "she's distorting Shojo's intent" than

"Shojo initially wanted the Order dead, sent Miko off under that misapprehension, then got contacted by Eugene and changed his mind, but didn't tell Miko he'd changed his mind - he just lied about his instructions to Miko, and the flashback scene is a lie."

The first is consistent with all later information about Miko.

The second makes Shojo even more incompetent than the strip version.

Peelee

2017-12-30, 03:10 PM

When they present honest evidence instead of clutching at straws and making specious excuses.

And when honest evidence (such as the comic explicitly showing that Shojo did not order an execution) clashes with your personal belief (such as believing that Miko claiming Shojo ordered an execution is what must have happened), do you admit to it being honest evidence, or do you dismiss it as specious excuses or clutching at straws?

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 03:11 PM

"Shojo initially wanted the Order dead, sent Miko off under that misapprehension, then got contacted by Eugene and changed his mind, but didn't tell Miko he'd changed his mind - he just lied about his instructions to Miko, and the flashback scene is a lie."
I agree that's pretty baffling. Unfortunately, it's no more baffling than anything else about the canonical version of Shojo's behaviour. If Shojo rilly rilly knew about Xykon and the OOTS from day one, he'd have gone after Xykon. If the mission was actually important, she'd be teleporting, and probably have some backup.

Again, my preferred headcanon storyline doesn't have Shojo and Eugene meeting until much later. In which case, Shojo is dispatching Miko after six probably-evil nobodies he's never of, and the whole thing is much more comprehensible.

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 03:15 PM

I agree that's pretty baffling. Unfortunately, it's no more baffling than anything else about the canonical version of Shojo's behaviour. If Shojo rilly rilly knew about Xykon and the OOTS from day one, he'd have gone after Xykon.

From his perspective, working through the Order is safer than working through the Sapphire Guard. As he points out, they won't go after the other gates without a lot more evidence than he has.

His method of "going after Xykon" is "recruit Adventuring Party who already have a massive grudge against Xykon"

Unfortunately, a lot of time is wasted because he's willing to humour Eugene (and, give the Sapphire Guard the impression that he's trying to be proactive in getting People Who Endanger The Fabric of the Universe arrested, to boot).

Again, my preferred headcanon storyline doesn't have Shojo and Eugene meeting until much later. In which case, Shojo is dispatching Miko after six probably-evil nobodies he's never of, and the whole thing is much more comprehensible.

It contradicts Paladin Blues commentary though - which establishes that Eugene is the architect of a ludicrously complex scheme to get Roy to the place where he can hear what Eugene has to say.

For him to be lying about everything, just doesn't fit.

Simpler, just to take Eugene & Shojo's flashback scenes literally, and accept that Eugene really is a jerk, and that Miko really is overzealous.

Jasdoif

2017-12-30, 03:48 PM

If Shojo rilly rilly knew about Xykon and the OOTS from day one, he'd have gone after Xykon.What if he couldn't find Xykon?

factotum

2017-12-30, 04:22 PM

If Shojo rilly rilly knew about Xykon and the OOTS from day one, he'd have gone after Xykon.

So Shojo, who is known to be senile--and remember that *we* know that was all a ruse, the Sapphire Guard did not--goes to Hinjo and says, "There's this bad dude Xykon who just destroyed Dorukan's Gate and is likely going after the others, we must stop him!" What do you suppose Hinjo's reaction to that will be? I mean, at the very least he's going to have to ask where Shojo is getting this detailed information about what's happening at a Gate he's sworn not to interfere with, and any answer Shojo comes up with is going to have to be *really, really good* to not only convince Hinjo this isn't part of his madness, but also not reveal things that Shojo doesn't want to be known by the Guard.

This is why I'm maybe belabouring the point that Shojo has been doing things on the shady side for so long that it's become second nature for him to do it that way. In this case, he's gone through the above conversation in his head and can't see an outcome to it that doesn't involve him having to reveal he's been hoodwinking his own nephew about his illness for many years, and he really doesn't want to do that.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 04:42 PM

It contradicts Paladin Blues commentary though - which establishes that Eugene is the architect of a ludicrously complex scheme to get Roy to the place where he can hear what Eugene has to say.
Oh, I'm pretty sure this isn't the version that was going through the author's head at the time. And given that nobody in the early strip had used sending, teleport, commune, planar ally, or similar spells as major plot devices, that was fine and hunky dory to be going on with.

Unfortunately, these things got mixed into the setting later, and if we're supposed to back-port later information about certain characters' actions as a way of recasting their original motives, well... is it unfair to do that with other elements of the narrative? If you really can't hop from A to B at will, you can't expect the Guard to drop what they're doing and tear after Xykon. That's fine, but it ceased to apply when small armies of elves appeared outside Azure City overnight.

I know I sound like one of these people who complain (https://www.tor.com/2017/12/27/in-defense-of-tolkiens-deus-ex-machina/) about the Eagles in Tolkien- actually, I probably am- but this is like Gandalf and Elrond sending Aragorn to Osgiliath to go find some rangers to escort Frodo.

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 04:58 PM

Keeping Teleport usage to a minimum, fits with The Giant's MO:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411301-Interview-Questions-For-Rich&p=19163131&highlight=teleport#post19163131

Morty
Is there any particular part of the D&D 3e rules that "gets in the way" of your story more consistently than others? I mean, it doesn't really get in the way because it's swept aside the moment it becomes inconvenient, but I hope the question makes sense.

The Giant
True Resurrection, without a doubt. It's literally impossible for a mortal character to ever be completely out of the story because of its existence. Actually, all forms of resurrection are kind of a pain in the ass, though the other versions have roadblocks you can throw in the path. But because True Resurrection exists, every character death is met with, "Well, they could still come back!" forever.

Also, Teleport. Characters who blip right to their end destination do not for an engaging journey make.

Hence, the Order only get a small amount of it - getting to Cliffport and back.

If there's only one wizard Shojo can call on for teleport duty - makes sense that he doesn't teleport her straight to The Order - especially if he doesn't know where they are. It's not like Eugene can leave the circle, find them, and report back - as Eugene explains - if he leaves the circle, Celestia won't let him Respond To Summonings for a while.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 05:01 PM

So Shojo, who is known to be senile--and remember that *we* know that was all a ruse, the Sapphire Guard did not--goes to Hinjo and says, "There's this bad dude Xykon who just destroyed Dorukan's Gate and is likely going after the others, we must stop him!" What do you suppose Hinjo's reaction to that will be?
Happily, Shojo doesn't need to do the explaining. The Guard have already summoned a celestial being whose function was to advise and inform them- and it transpires that this very Being of Pure Law And Good had been watching over Dorukan's Keep itself. That sounds like a sign to me, but if they have suspicions, the creature is quite willing to enter a Zone of Truth- because what he's saying, with a little verbal finesse, would actually be 100% accurate. All a bit sudden, to be sure, but enough to prompt some further divinations and ready an investigation team.

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 05:03 PM

is it unfair to do that with other elements of the narrative? If you really can't hop from A to B at will, you can't expect the Guard to drop what they're doing and tear after Xykon. That's fine, but it ceased to apply when small armies of elves appeared outside Azure City overnight.

They only come in four at a time:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 05:40 PM

Keeping Teleport usage to a minimum, fits with The Giant's MO:
I can totally understand the desire to a have a relatively low-magic universe if you want to maintain consistency with certain kinds of genre. I actually agree that Resurrection cheapens death, and think that the author was totally within his rights to house-rule these things out, or just keep the playing field low enough that 'mundane' solutions are normal and expected. (Or at least as mundane as tanglefoot bags and zombies are likely to be.)

However, that's not what happened. OOTSverse is closer to Spelljammer than E6. We're in a world where at least the elites of society- and you don't get any more elite than Shojo- can apparently loan teleporting wizards out on side-quests. Even if teleportation is rare, difficult and expensive, the Guard would be using it whenever the world is potentially at stake.

I would just mention that- although it's not my preference- it doesn't necessarily break the narrative if characters can *bamf* from place to place. That's what they call a Hyperdrive in Star Wars, for example, and few people seem to mind. It just leads to a different kind of story.

.

hamishspence

2017-12-30, 05:52 PM

Even if teleportation is rare, difficult and expensive, the Guard would be using it whenever the world is potentially at stake.

The Guard aren't the ones making the decisions about what to use the "teleport wizard" for though - Shojo is. He's not telling them "the world is potentially at stake" because he's decided to use the Order rather than the Guard, at least in these initial stages.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-30, 07:17 PM

The Guard aren't the ones making the decisions about what to use the "teleport wizard" for though - Shojo is. He's not telling them "the world is potentially at stake" because he's decided to use the Order rather than the Guard, at least in these initial stages.
No, but he's not telling them the OOTS had no intention of deliberately unravelling the fabric of reality and don't pose a serious threat either. As far as the Guard are concerned, they're still a potential danger to the world as a whole. It might help if their diviners specifically checked for the involvement of, say the Crimson Mantle and got back a definitive 'No'- it's hard to explain why Miko doesn't ask the Order about this otherwise- but it's still distinctly odd that their response was so... comparatively underwhelming.

Keltest

2017-12-30, 09:05 PM

No, but he's not telling them the OOTS had no intention of deliberately unravelling the fabric of reality and don't pose a serious threat either. As far as the Guard are concerned, they're still a potential danger to the world as a whole. It might help if their diviners specifically checked for the involvement of, say the Crimson Mantle and got back a definitive 'No'- it's hard to explain why Miko doesn't ask the Order about this otherwise- but it's still distinctly odd that their response was so... comparatively underwhelming.

Because Shojo didn't want overwhelming crushing force brought against the Order. At the end of the day, he's their boss and he makes those decisions. Being paladins, theyre bound to obey them even if they disagree with them.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-31, 11:22 AM

Because Shojo didn't want overwhelming crushing force brought against the Order. At the end of the day, he's their boss and he makes those decisions. Being paladins, theyre bound to obey them even if they disagree with them.
We may still be going in circles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22693728&viewfull=1#post22693728), but there seems to be a double-standard here as to whether Shojo needs to justify himself or not. If Shojo doesn't need to justify himself, he can just tell his paladins to go find this Xykon dude, starting from the ruins of Dorukan's Keep (which, again, would in no way violate their oaths.) If Shojo needs to have evidence and reasoning to back up his decisions, they're going to ask they don't send a larger force after the mysterious culprits and use teleports to get there.

Keltest

2017-12-31, 11:27 AM

We may still be going in circles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22693728&viewfull=1#post22693728), but there seems to be a double-standard here as to whether Shojo needs to justify himself or not. If Shojo doesn't need to justify himself, he can just tell his paladins to go find this Xykon dude, starting from the ruins of Dorukan's Keep (which, again, would in no way violate their oaths.) If Shojo needs to have evidence and reasoning to back up his decisions, they're going to ask they don't send a larger force after the mysterious culprits and use teleports to get there.

Shojo doesn't need to justify himself to the Guard. He doesn't to the Order either, technically, but it is in his best interests to get the Order on the same page as him regarding the gates and Xykon.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-31, 11:30 AM

Shojo doesn't need to justify himself to the Guard. He doesn't to the Order either, technically, but it is in his best interests to get the Order on the same page as him regarding the gates and Xykon.
Yes, but the most efficient way to do that was with a Sending spell. The second-most-efficient was to teleport Hinjo or O-Chul next to them with some backup and persuade them to come along nicely, run the trial, and teleport them back to chase after Xykon from his last known location. What actually happens is many many many places down the list.

Keltest

2017-12-31, 11:35 AM

Yes, but the most efficient way to do that was with a Sending spell. The second-most-efficient was to teleport Hinjo or O-Chul next to them with some backup and persuade them to come along nicely, run the trial, and teleport them back to chase after Xykon from his last known location. What actually happens is many many many places down the list.

Again, you are assuming access to resources that they may or may not have. Azure City only has one wizard who can cast teleport, and he isn't a member of the Guard. The Guard almost certainly has rules against involving outsiders in their business (they are a secret organization after all).

Beyond that, again, the paladins have no tracking skills to speak of and they aren't interested in assassinating Xykon.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-31, 11:46 AM

Again, you are assuming access to resources that they may or may not have. Azure City only has one wizard who can cast teleport, and he isn't a member of the Guard. The Guard almost certainly has rules against involving outsiders in their business (they are a secret organization after all).

Beyond that, again, the paladins have no tracking skills to speak of and they aren't interested in assassinating Xykon.
They would be, if Eugene/the BoPLAG explained why, or if Shojo just told them to. You said he doesn't have to justify himself, remember?

However bad the SG's tracking skills are- and I'm not convinced (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22701002&viewfull=1#post22701002) they were (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22708003&viewfull=1#post22708003)- the Order's are actually worse. That doesn't mean securing the Order's cooperation wouldn't be worthwhile, but substituting their abilities for the Guards' is a recipe for fail.

We don't strictly know that the loan-wizard is the only teleporting caster available, or that he wasn't a member of the guard, but they could just teleport to the nearest town or village and still cut down drastically on travel time. (Besides, it's not like Roy was outstanding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) at keeping his mouth shut.)

Fyraltari

2017-12-31, 12:04 PM

Not sure if that came up already but

Shojo has a good idea of how dangerous Xykon is : dude was squatting Dorukan's place.
Baring the possiblilty that Dorukan willingly let a lich near his gate that means that Xykon found a way to beat or trick Dorukan and every defense he had put on the work of his life. Dorukan. The same Dorukan who devised half of a spell intended to mend holes in the fabric of reality. Anyone that can do that has nothing to fear from a paladin kill-team.

Now the counterpoint to that is : Xykon was reduced to a talking necklace and down to his last goblin so he is an easier than usual target at the moment. But did Shojo and Eugene know that? Shojo had no info on Xykon prior talking to Eugene who obviously knew that Xykon was alive still undead. Ergo Eugene knew. But how much did he exactly knew? He offers zero info to Roy about Xykon nor a forewarning about the phylactery, not even as a why-a-fighter-can't-do-the-job spiel nor later on can he tell what team Evil is up to so it is seems safe to conclude that Eugene had in fact no other information on Team Evil than "Xykon not rotting in Hell yet". How could he know that? Because he is still an oathspirit! No deva or associated came to tell him that he was time for him to get to his final destination therefore Roy failed. If that is true then that also explains why Shojo did not know about the Crimson Mantle. Eugene simply never knew of Red existence and when asked about it shrugged and said he had no idea if a redcloaked goblin was involved.

Then how did Eugene knew that Xykon survived thanks to a soul can? Because the sapphire guard/azure City has in its history dealt with liches and noted down that important bit of trivia in the Manual of the Perfect Blue-Haired Paladin.

So basically all they know is that the lich-sorcerer known as Xykon, who commands an unknown quantity of ressources and manpower but defeated Durokan and probably Lirian, is on the move but they don't know where he is nor where he is headed to, sending a large number of paladins away now would be suicide since they have no guarantee that all the paladins are enough to stop him (they are but barely), the Guard will refuse to contact the other Gates out of loyalty to their dumb Oath and their is a group of adventurers already in the middle of this that does not have that burden.

Send someone after them, rig them a trial so you can blackmail them justin case then want to quit or spill the beans and get them to work on where Xykon is going to strike next (they managed to track him down once before didn't they?) so that the next target can prepare adequately to what is coming (and if that's not hoping to much) contact the Sapphire Guard and Serini so that the ennemy has not one but twoor three defenders to worry about this time.

Sounds like a decent plan to me.

Keltest

2017-12-31, 12:05 PM

They would be, if Eugene/the BoPLAG explained why, or if Shojo just told them to. You said he doesn't have to justify himself, remember?

However bad the SG's tracking skills are- and I'm not convinced (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22701002&viewfull=1#post22701002) they were (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22708003&viewfull=1#post22708003)- the Order's are actually worse. That doesn't mean securing the Order's cooperation wouldn't be worthwhile, but substituting their abilities for the Guards' is a recipe for fail.

We don't strictly know that the loan-wizard is the only teleporting caster available, or that he wasn't a member of the guard, but they could just teleport to the nearest town or village and still cut down drastically on travel time. (Besides, it's not like Roy was outstanding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) at keeping his mouth shut.)

The Order is not being sent to Assassinate Xykon either. Killing Xykon is meaningless if he manages to destroy another gate first. You seem to have fundamentally misunderstood Shojo's goals here. He is specifically trying to reinforce the gates. Assassinating Xykon is beyond the means of either group at that time, which is why he isn't wasting resources trying.

And we do know the loan-wizard is the only teleporting caster available because Shojo says as much. They need to get him resurrected before the Order can be teleported anywhere else. And unless he has cleric or paladin levels too, he cant be a member of the Guard.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-31, 12:17 PM

The Order is not being sent to Assassinate Xykon either. Killing Xykon is meaningless if he manages to destroy another gate first. You seem to have fundamentally misunderstood Shojo's goals here. He is specifically trying to reinforce the gates.
I don't think that's what he says. His initial task for the Order was to investigate the other Gates and report back to him with evidence. (How, exactly they were going to report back in such a manner that Shojo could present their evidence without incriminating himself is an open question.)

Secondly, destroying Xykon was well within the Guard's abilities, because Xykon had no body and couldn't cast spells for some time. Even if they caught up to Xykon after he was recovered, they'd at least be able to observe that he was colluding with the hobgoblins and that an invasion of Azure City was likely. Reporting that back to Shojo would still be a way, way better outcome.

And we do know the loan-wizard is the only teleporting caster available because Shojo says as much. They need to get him resurrected before the Order can be teleported anywhere else.
Can you link the strip?

hamishspence

2017-12-31, 12:20 PM

Can you link the strip?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-31, 12:33 PM

Now the counterpoint to that is : Xykon was reduced to a talking necklace and down to his last goblin so he is an easier than usual target at the moment. But did Shojo and Eugene know that? Shojo had no info on Xykon prior talking to Eugene who obviously knew that Xykon was alive still undead. Ergo Eugene knew. But how much did he exactly knew? He offers zero info to Roy about Xykon nor a forewarning about the phylactery...
He does describe a 'soul-hidey place', which does seem... oddly vague, but how would he even know this without observing Team Evil long enough to get the facts? (Either that, or he actually went to the Devas and they explained the situation?)

Then how did Eugene knew that Xykon survived thanks to a soul can? Because the sapphire guard/azure City has in its history dealt with liches and noted down that important bit of trivia in the Manual of the Perfect Blue-Haired Paladin.
It's plausible, but Miko doesn't seem aware of this information, and if it were true they'd still know it would take some time for Xykon to regenerate. They'd know better than Eugene, in fact.

I'm not disputing that Xykon is One Bad Mofo, and that Shojo knew enough to say that engaging him at full strength would be reckless. But he (or Eugene/the BoPLAG) could just have told the paladins as much. "Pursue with all haste, and destroy them if you can, but do not engage if Xykon has fully regenerated. Simply observe and Send back your report." I see no obvious drawbacks to that plan, compared to the alternatives.

RatElemental

2017-12-31, 02:03 PM

hamishspence

2017-12-31, 02:06 PM

Am I missing something here or are some people just assuming Eugene/Shojo knows Xykon's been reduced to his phylactery?

Eugene's Knowledge appears to be high enough that he knows liches do this (as a wizard, Knowledge is a class skill for him):

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0293.html

It only takes a lich at most 10 days to do this:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

and it took months for Miko to travel to the Order and back to Azure City.

Emanick

2017-12-31, 02:10 PM

Am I missing something here or are some people just assuming Eugene/Shojo knows Xykon's been reduced to his phylactery? I'm more than willing to accept I've missed something, but I don't quite see how they would know that.

It seems highly likely, albeit not 100% certain. Eugene knows to haunt Roy immediately after he destroys Xykon's body, which strongly suggests that he was aware of the fight, presumably watching it from Celestia. Given how obsessed he is with getting into heaven, it would be somewhat odd if he hadn't been watching the fight. We know he's checking in on Roy repeatedly while the Order progresses in the dungeon.

We also know he understands how liches work, since he's the one who explains them to Roy.

Lacuna Caster

2017-12-31, 02:50 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html
Cheers. That does indicate that Shojo was fully intent on using that wizard for the rest of the Order's missions, though, and given he was capable of transporting all six at once, he can't have learned it yesterday. So not using him for Guard missions is still pretty strange.

Eugene's Knowledge appears to be high enough that he knows liches do this (as a wizard, Knowledge is a class skill for him)...
Alternatively, he may simply have overheard Xykon talking to Redcloak. He did see them exit the keep. (Beside, if he just knew it from study, why didn't he tell Roy when he was alive?)

On a completely unrelated note, I think the best analogues for Miko's, ah, leadership style might be something between Captain Bligh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bligh#Possible_causes_of_the_mutiny) and Stonewall Jackson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_Jackson#Religion). Difficult to work with, but effective enough at securing tactical objectives that they can rise to a high command position. (Wouldn't really explain sending her on solo assignments, though.)

brian 333

2017-12-31, 06:36 PM

The point I believe causes the most confusion is how strictly characters of lawful alignment can adhere to vows.

It does not matter that other gates are in danger, the Sapphire Guard has vowed not to interfere with them, even in extreme situations under unique circumstances. For the paladins, it is a non-negotiable issue. If they had knowledge that their leader was involved in such interference they would rermove him from office.

There is no logical option which allows Shojo to retain power once the SG become aware that he is violating the founding principle of their order.

His choice, then, is to work through agents and create a fiction which allows him to help. Was it the best choice? Was it the optimum choice? No, but it was the choice that kept him on the throne where he could try to do something. It was certain that nobody else would have even tried.

For an example of characters acting against their own good and that of their kingdom because they obeyed their vows instead of common sense, read the excellent Deryni series.

Fyraltari

2017-12-31, 08:17 PM

Alternatively, he may simply have overheard Xykon talking to Redcloak. He did see them exit the keep
Did he? Do you have a strip where this is stated/shown?

and if it were true they'd still know it would take some time for Xykon to regenerate. They'd know better than Eugene, in fact..
They wouldn't necesseraly know how long it would take though, this is the kind of thing liches would be keen on keeping a secret. That's a stretch, I admit. By the way does the lich has to do fully regenarated before it can cast again? If not at what point of regenaration is Xykon dangerous again?

It's plausible, but Miko doesn't seem aware of this information
That's a really good point. If the Sapphire Guard knew how to deal with liches then Miko would know and she doesn't. And if they don't, that mean Eugene knew and didn't tell Roy. From this we can conclude that Eugene is a ****, a moron and a hypocrit. Not exactly news but that's sad.

I'm not disputing that Xykon is One Bad Mofo, and that Shojo knew enough to say that engaging him at full strength would be reckless. But he (or Eugene/the BoPLAG) could just have told the paladins as much. "Pursue with all haste, and destroy them if you can, but do not engage if Xykon has fully regenerated. Simply observe and Send back your report." I see no obvious drawbacks to that plan, compared to the alternatives.
The drawback would be sending a number of paladins away for whoever know how long when the City might be attacked soon. Atleast when they sent Miko they had Eugene to tell her what town the Order was headed to.

factotum

2018-01-01, 02:59 AM

Did he? Do you have a strip where this is stated/shown?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0293.html

Note that Eugene says in panel #3 "I saw his lackeys escape". The only lackeys of Xykon we know for sure escaped the dungeon are Redcloak and MitD, so Occam's Razor suggests pretty heavily those are who he's talking about.

Fyraltari

2018-01-01, 06:46 AM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0293.html

Note that Eugene says in panel #3 "I saw his lackeys escape". The only lackeys of Xykon we know for sure escaped the dungeon are Redcloak and MitD, so Occam's Razor suggests pretty heavily those are who he's talking about.

Oh right, I missed that. So Eugene knows Xykon is stuck in a phylactery for the moment.

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-01, 12:28 PM

It does not matter that other gates are in danger, the Sapphire Guard has vowed not to interfere with them, even in extreme situations under unique circumstances. For the paladins, it is a non-negotiable issue. If they had knowledge that their leader was involved in such interference they would remove him from office.
Look, I hate to be a cracked record here, but to repeat- Xykon was not at any of the other intact Gates. There was no reason why the Guard couldn't go to his last known location and try tracking him from there. When and if they had good reason to believe he was actually headed to another Gate, then they could debate whether their oaths prevented interference- but at that point they would also have evidence the other Gate/s were in danger. Job done.

What's more, any evidence the Order could gather would be tainted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22695417&viewfull=1#post22695417) by having to explain where either they or Shojo got it from. Aside from the problem of concealing his ongoing collusion, how exactly does that decrease the risk of incriminating himself?

They wouldn't necessarily know how long it would take though, this is the kind of thing liches would be keen on keeping a secret. That's a stretch, I admit. By the way does the lich has to do fully regenarated before it can cast again? If not at what point of regenaration is Xykon dangerous again?

...The drawback would be sending a number of paladins away for whoever know how long when the City might be attacked soon. Atleast when they sent Miko they had Eugene to tell her what town the Order was headed to.
There'd be uncertainty over how long Xykon would be vulnerable, sure. To a certain extent, it's a gamble (there is always the possibility, even if the paladins kept their distance and observed, that they'd be spotted first by Xykon or RC and captured for interrogation, say.) There are absolutely ways for this to go wrong.

But there are risks involved in any military maneuver, including playing defence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_B._McClellan), and part of being a competent general is recognising opportunities to strike the enemy at their weakest point. Shojo never even mentions to the paladins or his military that Xykon was an emergent threat that needed to be dealt with at all- which is, in part, why the city was taken by surprise. I'm not seeing the advantage to that.

.

Jasdoif

2018-01-01, 02:12 PM

There was no reason why the Guard couldn't go to his last known location and try tracking him from there.There's no reason to assume we would know if they did, and failed. The comic is titled "The Order of the Stick", not "The Wacky Misadventures of the Sapphire Guard".

Sylian

2018-01-01, 06:36 PM

By the rules that wizard would have to be 18th level to transport the whole Order, which means he's almost playing in Xykon's league already.There are other alternatives. Maybe he had a feat, magical item, or prestige class that let him teleport more people? The Giant does homebrew a lot, after all.

But for a while now, ALL feats have been homebrewed feats, all items have been homebrewed items, all new characters have unspecified classes, etc. Even when I have a specific actual game rule in mind when I use them.

brian 333

2018-01-01, 07:29 PM

Double post error, my mistake.

brian 333

2018-01-01, 07:55 PM

Look, I hate to be a cracked record here, but to repeat- Xykon was not at any of the other intact Gates. There was no reason why the Guard couldn't go to his last known location and try tracking him from there. When and if they had good reason to believe he was actually headed to another Gate, then they could debate whether their oaths prevented interference- but at that point they would also have evidence the other Gate/s were in danger. Job done.

What's more, any evidence the Order could gather would be tainted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22695417&viewfull=1#post22695417) by having to explain where either they or Shojo got it from. Aside from the problem of concealing his ongoing collusion, how exactly does that decrease the risk of incriminating himself?

There'd be uncertainty over how long Xykon would be vulnerable, sure. To a certain extent, it's a gamble (there is always the possibility, even if the paladins kept their distance and observed, that they'd be spotted first by Xykon or RC and captured for interrogation, say.) There are absolutely ways for this to go wrong.

But there are risks involved in any military maneuver, including playing defence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_B._McClellan), and part of being a competent general is recognising opportunities to strike the enemy at their weakest point. Shojo never even mentions to the paladins or his military that Xykon was an emergent threat that needed to be dealt with at all- which is, in part, why the city was taken by surprise. I'm not seeing the advantage to that.

.

And once again you are making the same oversight: Shojo only knew about the Oots because he saw other gates fail in his divination device and set about attempting to interfere. Prior to that point he knew nothing about Xykon, and therefore couldn't send anyone to intercept him. After he learned about Xykon he was alrueady guilty of violating the non-interference clause, and revealing this would, (did,) result in is being removed from office.

For the paladins there is but one course of action allowed: defend Soon's gate, at Soon's gate. Shojo cannot send the paladins, or even a group of them, to attack Xykon, leaving the home defenses weakened at exactly the time they are needed.

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-02, 11:00 AM

There's no reason to assume we would know if they did, and failed. The comic is titled "The Order of the Stick", not "The Wacky Misadventures of the Sapphire Guard".
It's technically conceivable, but there's also no reason to assume we'd know about them failing to investigate Lirian's Gate, and Shojo mentioned it anyway. It also suggests that Shojo, for some reason, sent Miko on the 'persuade recalcitrant suspects to come quietly' quest, rather than the 'seek-and-destroy mass-murdering undead abomination' quest. In either case, why conceal Xykon's survival from the bulk of the paladins?

There are other alternatives. Maybe he had a feat, magical item, or prestige class that let him teleport more people? The Giant does homebrew a lot, after all.
Yeah, it's plausible. My main point is just that Shojo had teleport capacity, so striking at Xykon while he was still vulnerable was a realistic possibility.

After he learned about Xykon he was alrueady guilty of violating the non-interference clause, and revealing this would, (did,) result in is being removed from office...
I'm not seeing how that holds up. Eugene certainly broke a few rules by impersonating a Deva, but none of that is the fault of Shojo or his summoners, and Eugene wouldn't have done it if he didn't have confidence that his BoPLAG disguise couldn't fool whoever summoned him. Worst case scenario was that they get annoyed at or banish Eugene, but nothing about presenting his intel on Xykon, the Order, or the Crimson Mantle would require that Shojo break his oath.

Fyraltari

2018-01-02, 11:19 AM

It's technically conceivable, but there's also no reason to assume we'd know about them failing to investigate Lirian's Gate, and Shojo mentioned it anyway.

Yes there was : informing the Order and the reader about the existance and, more importantly, loss of Lirian's gate and premptively answering the question what did you do about it?

Jasdoif

2018-01-02, 12:58 PM

It's technically conceivable, but there's also no reason to assume we'd know about them failing to investigate Lirian's Gate, and Shojo mentioned it anyway.As Fyraltari said, that was how the Giant chose to let Roy (and the audience) find out about Lirian's Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html). Shojo didn't mention Lirian's Gate unbidden; he commented that the loss of two Gates was his cause for worry; and when Roy interrupted to ask about the second Gate, Shojo answered about Lirian's Gate and the failed investigation thereof.

More importantly....Since you're talking about a fanfic centered on a character who the comic is not centered around, there's going to be a lot of areas with a dearth of direct data. "Conceivable" is a better source of forward momentum then "heck if I know".

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-02, 03:15 PM

More importantly....Since you're talking about a fanfic centered on a character who the comic is not centered around, there's going to be a lot of areas with a dearth of direct data. "Conceivable" is a better source of forward momentum then "heck if I know".
I'm... aware there are plenty of blanks that would have to be filled in if I were trying to do any hypothetical Miko-related story. My concern is more whether there's any point in trying to keep large chunks of the background plot intact, or if I should just borrow elements selectively and try to comment on some of the broader philosophy/ethics involved. If I change too much about the initial parameters it raises the question of whether it really counts as fanfic anymore, or if I'm writing about some entirely different character/s working in a different organisation. It might defeat the purpose.

I mean... yes, I can technically imagine that Shojo prepped a team of 3-4 other high-level paladins, and teleports them to the ruins of Dorukan's keep to chase Xykon, where they either fail to pick up the trail or get obliterated off-panel by Redcloak, and this is nowhere depicted or referenced by any party involved. But I'm pretty sure that if I were to actually write this, it would just prompt readers* to ask most of the other questions I've been raising, and I don't have good answers to those.

* Assuming there are at least two

Jasdoif

2018-01-02, 03:55 PM

I'm... aware there are plenty of blanks that would have to be filled in if I were trying to do any hypothetical Miko-related story. My concern is more whether there's any point in trying to keep large chunks of the background plot intact, or if I should just borrow elements selectively and try to comment on some of the broader philosophy/ethics involved. If I change too much about the initial parameters it raises the question of whether it really counts as fanfic anymore, or if I'm writing about some entirely different character/s working in a different organisation. It might defeat the purpose.

I mean... yes, I can technically imagine that Shojo prepped a team of 3-4 other high-level paladins, and teleports them to the ruins of Dorukan's keep to chase Xykon, where they either fail to pick up the trail or get obliterated off-panel by Redcloak, and this is nowhere depicted or referenced by any party involved. But I'm pretty sure that if I were to actually write this, it would just prompt readers* to ask most of the other questions I've been raising, and I don't have good answers to those.Well then, my recommendation: Keep what you can intact, but you shouldn't mention or explain everything, certainly not if you aren't satisfied with what you'd say. (For instance, trying to explain why Force-sensitives can't consistently sense each other (http://irregularwebcomic.net/468.html) is a losing battle.) You presumably know why you want to write a fanfic about Miko in the first place, and it sounds like frustration with Shojo's whole decision-making process is getting in your way. So move it out of your way. Shojo clearly has the authority to dispatch his paladins without needing to elaborate on every detail, so you don't need Shojo to provide Miko with details you aren't satisfied with. (Maybe Miko's as dissatisfied with Shojo's obfuscation as you are?)

Your job as a fiction writer, fanfic or otherwise, is to entertain your readers; and if you're not happy with what you're writing, why would your readers like it? A world is way too widespread and intricate for a story to viably visit every single aspect of it, so you may as well use the necessity to omit stuff to your advantage.

Peelee

2018-01-02, 04:06 PM

Fyraltari

2018-01-02, 05:08 PM

For instance, trying to explain why Force-sensitives can't consistently sense each other (http://irregularwebcomic.net/468.html) is a losing battle.

Is that a challenge, sir ?

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-02, 05:19 PM

Well then, my recommendation: Keep what you can intact, but you shouldn't mention or explain everything, certainly not if you aren't satisfied with what you'd say. (For instance, trying to explain why Force-sensitives can't consistently sense each other (http://irregularwebcomic.net/468.html) is a losing battle.) You presumably know why you want to write a fanfic about Miko in the first place, and it sounds like frustration with Shojo's whole decision-making process is getting in your way. So move it out of your way. Shojo clearly has the authority to dispatch his paladins without needing to elaborate on every detail, so you don't need Shojo to provide Miko with details you aren't satisfied with. (Maybe Miko's as dissatisfied with Shojo's obfuscation as you are?)
I pretty much assume that Miko- or anyone else in the Guard with a brain- would probably object to some of these decisions, but all else equal I'd just prefer if Shojo had a better excuse for his actions (either by being legit senile, or just not bumping into Eugene so early, et cetera. In part because putting up with them would reflect almost as badly on the Guard as it would on Shojo.)

As for why I'd write a story about Miko specifically... I'm not sure there's a simple answer to that. I guess one reason is that crazily-disciplined high-achieving asian women are actually doing pretty okay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Hymn_of_the_Tiger_Mother) these days- she's powerful for reasons that are actually quasi-realistic, and might actually stand imitation to some degree. I also think that (A) both regular D&D and the universe Rich has built make for a very awkward platform for critiquing her specific dysfunctions, and (B) Miko had to be both divorced from her background (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlrJ8s5TF-c) and morphed into a cartoon strawman to do it. I'm not sure I have a solution to that, but someone's going to have to find one.

.

Jasdoif

2018-01-02, 09:22 PM

He could easily have felt that she was strong in the Force, and just not mentioned it to anyone. There's no reason to, especially since he was accusing her of being a Rebel spy and a traitor at the time.Exactly. Two sentences that don't even need to be written in a story, and there's never a "problem" to deal with in the first place.

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-03, 07:48 AM

Exactly. Two sentences that don't even need to be written in a story, and there's never a "problem" to deal with in the first place.
One could argue that Leia's abilities are either comparatively modest or she has a subconsciously-expressed talent for concealment, but Luke is just as much of a rebel and a traitor in his eyes, and Vader's reaction is to try and recruit him- which is what you'd generally do with any untrained force-sensitives you can grab. (Vader also has no objections when Tarkin orders Leia terminated, even though she's also a high-ranking political figure and potentially useful for ransom.) Not the biggest problem (https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/69164/why-is-leia-okay-with-being-tracked-to-yavin) with the movie though.

hamishspence

2018-01-03, 08:10 AM

I'd just prefer if Shojo had a better excuse for his actions (either by being legit senile, or just not bumping into Eugene so early, et cetera. In part because putting up with them would reflect almost as badly on the Guard as it would on Shojo.)

Shojo being senile but faking a completely different kind of senility seems just too overcomplicated.

We know already that members of the Guard (O-Chul, at least) put up with tasks like cleaning Mr Scruffy's litter box - so, why can't they put up with other things - like being sent long distances without Teleport?

Keltest

2018-01-03, 08:26 AM

Peelee

2018-01-03, 08:33 AM

One could argue that Leia's abilities are either comparatively modest or she has a subconsciously-expressed talent for concealment, but Luke is just as much of a rebel and a traitor in his eyes, and Vader's reaction is to try and recruit him- which is what you'd generally do with any untrained force-sensitives you can grab. (Vader also has no objections when Tarkin orders Leia terminated, even though she's also a high-ranking political figure and potentially useful for ransom.) Not the biggest problem (https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/69164/why-is-leia-okay-with-being-tracked-to-yavin) with the movie though.

Leia isn't a high value political figure after the first half hour. The Emperor dissolved the Imperial Senate, so she went from Senator to 18 year old girl. And either way, she's a traitor. Also, the Empire isn't hard up for money; what would they random get for? Information on the Rebel Alliance? From whom?

Also, as far as the tracking, they are already en route to Yavin. It may be too late to change, as the Empire may already know the original destination. If this is the case, then diverting the Falcon would only lose time.

Vader also isn't the one who made the connection between Luke and Anakin though. That was Palpatine. Though why it took the Emperor himself to do that when Luke literally uses the same last name is beyond me.
Source?

Fyraltari

2018-01-03, 08:37 AM

Vader also isn't the one who made the connection between Luke and Anakin though. That was Palpatine. Though why it took the Emperor himself to do that when Luke literally uses the same last name is beyond me. Vader also has no problems killing Luke on the Death Star either.

In the movie themselves, there is no reason to assume the names of the heroes of the rebellion are widely known. In both Legends and the current Expanded Universe, Vader discovered Luke's identity before ESB and didn't inform the Emperor.

EDIT : source (https://comicnewbies.com/2015/06/04/darth-vader-learns-luke-is-his-son/)

Keltest

2018-01-03, 09:31 AM

Source?

Um... the movie? Empire Strikes Back? Theres a meeting between the emperor and Vader where Palpatine says "Luke is probably the son of Skywalker." (paraphrased), and Vader responds "How is this possible?"

hamishspence

2018-01-03, 09:43 AM

Um... the movie? Empire Strikes Back? Theres a meeting between the emperor and Vader where Palpatine says "Luke is probably the son of Skywalker." (paraphrased), and Vader responds "How is this possible?"
"I have no doubt that this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker"

Vader's surprise is apparently pretend. He's known Luke's name before that, and has been specifically hunting him.

"That is the system, and I'm sure Skywalker is with them."

In Legends at least, that TESB conversation shown from Vader's point of view, is painted as "he'd done the research but was unwilling to admit Luke was his own offspring, until Palpatine's confidence, convinced him".

Newcanon, however, has him far more convinced, much earlier.

Peelee

2018-01-03, 10:06 AM

Um... the movie? Empire Strikes Back? Theres a meeting between the emperor and Vader where Palpatine says "Luke is probably the son of Skywalker." (paraphrased), and Vader responds "How is this possible?"
Really? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUOAbT6OATU)

Darth Vader: [kneeling before Emperor Palpatine's hologram] What is thy bidding, my master?
Emperor Palpatine: There is a great disturbance in the Force.
Darth Vader: I have felt it.
Emperor Palpatine: We have a new enemy. Luke Skywalker.
Darth Vader: Yes, my Master.
Emperor Palpatine: He could destroy us.
Darth Vader: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.
Emperor Palpatine: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.
Darth Vader: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.
Emperor Palpatine: Yes... He would be a great asset. Can it be done?
Darth Vader: He will join us or die, master.

Is there a new version where they add in extra dialogue? Real question here, every version I've seen has Luke namedropped as nothing but "the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."

[I]In Legends at least, that TESB conversation shown from Vader's point of view, is painted as "[I]he'd done the research but was unwilling to admit Luke was his own offspring, until Palpatine's confidence, convinced him".

The novelization, I assume?

hamishspence

2018-01-03, 10:26 AM

Really? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUOAbT6OATU)

Darth Vader: [kneeling before Emperor Palpatine's hologram] What is thy bidding, my master?
Emperor Palpatine: There is a great disturbance in the Force.
Darth Vader: I have felt it.
Emperor Palpatine: We have a new enemy. Luke Skywalker.
Darth Vader: Yes, my Master.
Emperor Palpatine: He could destroy us.
Darth Vader: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.
Emperor Palpatine: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.
Darth Vader: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.
Emperor Palpatine: Yes... He would be a great asset. Can it be done?
Darth Vader: He will join us or die, master.

Is there a new version where they add in extra dialogue? Real question here, every version I've seen has Luke namedropped as nothing but "the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."

There is - the 2004 edition (and all subsequent ones).

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_changes_in_Star_Wars_re-releases

Darth Vader: What is thy bidding, my master?
Emperor Palpatine: There is a great disturbance in the Force.
Darth Vader: I have felt it.
Emperor Palpatine: We have a new enemy. The young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.
Darth Vader: How is that possible?
Emperor Palpatine: Search your feelings, Lord Vader. You will know it to be true. He could destroy us.
Darth Vader: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.
Emperor Palpatine: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.
Darth Vader: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.
Emperor Palpatine: Yes... He would be a great asset. Can it be done?
Darth Vader: He will join us or die, master.

The post-PT junior novelization of TESB (published after 2004) included the new conversation, and has Vader be shocked, and has "belief rising that Anakin's son could exist"

(with it being clear that, at least to the author, before that, Vader didn't know Luke was Anakin's son):

TESB Junior novelization:

From light years away, on the planet Coruscant, the Emperor said, "There is a great disturbance in the Force."
"I have felt it," Vader said.
The Emperor continued, "We have a new enemy. The young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker."
"How is that possible?" Darth Vader managed to ask through his shock. Could it be ... true?
"Search your feelings, Lord Vader. You will know it to be true. He could destroy us."
"He's just a boy," Vader pointed out, the belief rising within him that Anakin's son could exist. He thought,[I] If the Emperor knows about the boy, he also knows the fate of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Vader added, "Obi-Wan can no longer help him."
"The Force is strong with him," the Emperor said. "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."
The Emperor had not said, in so many words, that the young Skywalker must die, which was fortunate because Vader had something else in mind. He told his Master, "If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally."
"Yes," said the Emperor, his expression thoughtful, as if he had not previously considered the possibility. Sith Lords had long maintained a rule of limiting their numbers to only two: one master and one apprentice - but now, the Emperor's eyes seemed to ignite, and he repeated, "Yes. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?"
"He will join us or die, Master," Vader said. He bowed, and the Emperor's hologram faded out.
Nothing will stand in my way, Darth Vader thought. Nothing will stop me from achieving my goal. If I must search the farthest reaches of the galaxy, I will find Luke Skywalker.

The novelization, I assume?

That - and also the Legends book The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader, written by the author of that junior novelization (Ryder Windham) - who shows Vader's reaction after learning the name Luke Skywalker:

The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader

Could there have been other Skywalkers from Tatooine? Vader allowed the possibility. After all, it wasn't an entirely uncommon name in the galaxy.
But Anakin and Padme Amidala had been expecting a baby nineteen years ago.
Nineteen standard years.
It's not possible, Vader thought. I killed Padme. The baby died with her.
Not for the first time, he wondered if the Emperor had told him the whole truth about Padme's death. But I remember choking her ... seeing her collapse on Mustafar. I was so angry with her. And yet ...
Luke Skywalker exists.
Vader refused to believe the notorious Rebel's surname was merely a bizarre coincidence. If he had possessed any other name, Vader would not have hesitated to report what he had learned to the Emperor. But for purely selfish reasons, Vader kept the young Rebel's name to himself. To him, Luke Skywalker was more than a mystery to be solved.
He is ... an opportunity. As strong with the Force as he may be, he is an opportunity ... an opportunity for even greater power.
But who is he? Who were his parents? Could he have been Obi-Wan's son? But then why was he named Skywalker and raised by the Lars family? Or was he merely trained by Obi-Wan?
Because Obi-Wan Kenobi, Shmi Skywalker, Owen and Beru Lars, and Padme Amidala were dead, there was only one way Vader could discover the truth. He would have to ask Luke Skywalker himself. All he had to do was find him.

Peelee

2018-01-03, 10:34 AM

There is - the 2004 edition (and all subsequent ones).
Huh. Somehow I've managed to see the RotJ version with younger Anakin, but never seen the ESB version with extra Palps dialogue. Interesting. Although...

Though why it took the Emperor himself to do that when Luke literally uses the same last name is beyond me.
It wasn't an issue until they decided to make it an issue. Which is also beyond me.

brian 333

2018-01-03, 10:58 AM

When reason meets faith, one or the other must bend. Shojo and Miko bend toward faith. Their absolute belief precludes any rational explanation.

Miko dismisses any defense the Oots may have because she believes they are guilty of capital crimes. All subsequent information which can be contrived to support this belief is accepted at face value, and all information which can exonerate them is ignored or seen in the worst possible way. For example, Roy didn't want to stay in the inn for comfort, but because he intended to destroy it, as can be seen by the result, thus proving once again that Roy deserves the death her master has decreed.

You and I know that to be circular logic, but faith can over rule reason. It's all too common in the real world.

It is a mistake to view anything Shojo or Miko does through the lens of reason, because they do not see the world as existing by logical rules. They know without a doubt that the world was made for them by gods who watch over them. Ideas such as fate are not only wishful thinking on their part; they are scientifically demonstrateable truths of the Stickverse.

Miko is not insane to think herself special. What we see as insanity is simply the fact that she never gave thought to the idea that she is not the only special kid in the class.

Fyraltari

2018-01-03, 11:02 AM

We know already that members of the Guard (O-Chul, at least) put up with tasks like cleaning Mr Scruffy's litter box - so, why can't they put up with other things - like being sent long distances without Teleport?

He also put up with arbitrarily sending three people to jail without trial for an indefinite period of time.

More importantly, he and the entire SG pput up with taking orders from someone they actually believe to be senile, ie unfit for the job. Why haven't they retired him again?

brian 333

2018-01-03, 11:10 AM

He also put up with arbitrarily sending three people to jail without trial for an indefinite period of time.

More importantly, he and the entire SG pput up with taking orders from someone they actually believe to be senile, ie unfit for the job. Why haven't they retired him again?

Rules.

They have no rules requiring sanity in their leaders. They do have rules requiring obedience.

Fyraltari

2018-01-03, 11:17 AM

Rules.

They have no rules requiring sanity in their leaders. They do have rules requiring obedience.

What's the difference between LG and LN again? Because when the rules say the guy who think his cattalks to him should bein charge of protecting a tear in reality leading to a deicide monster, I think it would be Good to change the rules. I mean, kings getting abdicted or casually ignored in favor of their adult heir when they could not do their job correctly has happened in RL.

Don't get me wrong, I realize why setting a precedent of "I don't think the guy in charge is not qualified so I should take over" is a bad idea but come on, the world's at stake here.

Keltest

2018-01-03, 11:26 AM

What's the difference between LG and LN again? Because when the rules say the guy who think his cattalks to him should bein charge of protecting a tear in reality leading to a deicide monster, I think it would be Good to change the rules. I mean, kings getting abdicted or casually ignored in favor of their adult heir when they could not do their job correctly has happened in RL.

Don't get me wrong, I realize why setting a precedent of "I don't think the guy in charge is not qualified so I should take over" is a bad idea but come on, the world's at stake here.

Because his senility hasn't dramatically affected his competence. He may be a loon, but he's a capable loon. Shojo was walking a fine line between "capable enough to keep on the throne" and "crazy enough to not worry about"

brian 333

2018-01-03, 11:31 AM

What's the difference between LG and LN again? Because when the rules say the guy who think his cattalks to him should bein charge of protecting a tear in reality leading to a deicide monster, I think it would be Good to change the rules. I mean, kings getting abdicted or casually ignored in favor of their adult heir when they could not do their job correctly has happened in RL.

Don't get me wrong, I realize why setting a precedent of "I don't think the guy in charge is not qualified so I should take over" is a bad idea but come on, the world's at stake here.

Who, besides the crazy cat-whisperer, is even aware that the world is at stake? This is OOC information for everyone not present when the crayon cutaway happened.

And the nobles, expressed in the character of Kubotu, are trying to remove Shojo. They just need a technicality, such as would be presented were it known Shojo was involving himself in activities at other gates, or a successful assassination.

Fyraltari

2018-01-03, 11:44 AM

Because his senility hasn't dramatically affected his competence. He may be a loon, but he's a capable loon. Shojo was walking a fine line between "capable enough to keep on the throne" and "crazy enough to not worry about"
I guess that make sense. I'm still thinking the guard is more concerned with Lawful than with Good.

Who, besides the crazy cat-whisperer, is even aware that the world is at stake? This is OOC information for everyone not present when the crayon cutaway happened.
The members of the Sapphire Guard. Like every single one of them. This is the second thing they tell them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1033.html).

And the nobles, expressed in the character of Kubotu, are trying to remove Shojo. They just need a technicality, such as would be presented were it known Shojo was involving himself in activities at other gates, or a successful assassination.
Nope. The Nobles think they are controlling Shojo and dispute the illusory control with each other.
Kubota is trying to overthrow Hinjo, who is sane, young and sure of himself.
But the Nobles aren't privy to the secret of the Gates.

Or are you saying the Guard tolerate Shojo as a leader for fear of the Nobles' reaction?

KorvinStarmast

2018-01-03, 11:59 AM

Leaving your fortified position to go meet the enemy in theirs is extremely foolish if youre the defender. Just to get a little war gamish here, and actual military theory, look up "spoiling attack" and "sally ports" (which go back as far as Romans on Hadrian's Wall*) for examples of where the defenders do just that. You do have to pick your spots/time in order not to lose your general advantage (see Clausewitz and Sun Tzu both) that being the defender gives.

*See also Trojans sallying forth from Troy and setting fire to the ships of the Greeks ...

She states out loud that her master has ordered their execution. If, as most of you are maintaining, Shojo ordered the exact opposite, she is clearly interpreting her master's order very, very loosely. Why, then, is she willing to traipse over hundreds of miles on a mission she knows perfectly well to be a massive waste of her time? The same reason a lot of us who served did that very thing on numerous occasions: we were being good soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines, and our time is theirs to use/expend/waste since they are in command.

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-03, 01:18 PM

Yeah, I'm not getting sucked into a major debate on Star Wars here. Next.

Because his senility hasn't dramatically affected his competence. He may be a loon, but he's a capable loon. Shojo was walking a fine line between "capable enough to keep on the throne" and "crazy enough to not worry about"

And the nobles, expressed in the character of Kubota, are trying to remove Shojo. They just need a technicality, such as would be presented were it known Shojo was involving himself in activities at other gates, or a successful assassination.
I'm of the opinion that if Shojo was acting crazy enough to convince people he was genuinely senile, he'd be crazy enough to remove from power, particularly if unpopular policies were what prompted the ruse to begin with. That sounds like a Mad King (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aerys_II_Targaryen) situation to me.

You could also just leave the senility out, pretend or otherwise. It doesn't actually make a great deal of difference to the plot- Shojo doesn't need to be senile to be a scheming manipulator, and what he is caught in the act of doing with the OOTS is more than enough to mount criminal charges. It's not like his ostensible symptoms resemble actual dementia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia#Signs_and_symptoms) so much as mild eccentricity. Actual dementia is pretty painful to watch.

The same reason a lot of us who served did that very thing on numerous occasions: we were being good soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines, and our time is theirs to use/expend/waste since they are in command.
I think it's been suggested in this case that Miko actually may have used Teleport here, since her total trip time was only one week. But that's not really the point. If Miko is a stickler for her orders, however ridiculous, then she's a stickler for her orders, however ridiculous.

Peelee

2018-01-03, 01:22 PM

Yeah, I'm not getting sucked into a major debate on Star Wars here. Next.
Somewhere else, maybe? :smallsmile:

Keltest

2018-01-03, 01:26 PM

Yeah, I'm not getting sucked into a major debate on Star Wars here. Next.

I'm of the opinion that if Shojo was acting crazy enough to convince people he was genuinely senile, he'd be crazy enough to remove from power, particularly if unpopular policies were what prompted the ruse to begin with. That sounds like a Mad King (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aerys_II_Targaryen) situation to me.

You could also just leave the senility out, pretend or otherwise. It doesn't actually make a great deal of difference to the plot- Shojo doesn't need to be senile to be a scheming manipulator, and what he is caught in the act of doing with the OOTS is more than enough to mount criminal charges. It's not like his ostensible symptoms resemble actual dementia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia#Signs_and_symptoms) so much as mild eccentricity. Actual dementia is pretty painful to watch.

Remember that the nobles actually want Shojo to remain in power because they believe that theyre manipulating him. The Guard, meanwhile, doesn't really have much of an option unless Shojo becomes dangerous to himself or others through his senility.

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-03, 03:27 PM

@Keltest: If all the nobles think Shojo is being manipulated by them, Shojo is never going to have an opening to introduce policies they don't like. If he champions some policy that one or more nobles seriously dislike, that prompts an assassination anyway. Or at least that's how I see it working out.

Miko dismisses any defense the Oots may have because she believes they are guilty of capital crimes. All subsequent information which can be contrived to support this belief is accepted at face value, and all information which can exonerate them is ignored or seen in the worst possible way.
If by 'ignored', you mean, 'Miko accepts their word that they have evil twins responsible for most of their associated crimes', then yes, Miko is interpreting the evidence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html) in the worst possible light.

You know... going back and reading the early strips I'm just struck by how much simpler everyone's life would have been if this whole trial-rigging kerfuffle had been bypassed. *sigh* I miss those days.

Somewhere else, maybe? :smallsmile:
I dunno man. I feel like I should be doing work, or something.

Keltest

2018-01-03, 03:52 PM

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-01-03, 04:27 PM

Well, its not how it worked out. Shojo says as much. If one of the nobles don't like that policy, they assume a different noble who did like it manipulated Shojo better than they did that time.

And as a consequence, if they feel the need to break out the poison or the ninjas, they direct them to the nobles that they feel benefit from said policy, rather than Shojo. Unstable oligarchies throughout history had been rife with that kind of thing: who they suspect is responsible mattering far more than the puppet whose strings everyone thinks they are pulling.

GW

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-03, 04:42 PM

And as a consequence, if they feel the need to break out the poison or the ninjas, they direct them to the nobles that they feel benefit from said policy, rather than Shojo. Unstable oligarchies throughout history had been rife with that kind of thing: who they suspect is responsible mattering far more than the puppet whose strings everyone thinks they are pulling.
It's possible I suppose, but that also winds up killing off the nobles who actually agree with Shojo's policies. Not an ideal strategy for maintaining your long-term power-base.

Keltest

2018-01-03, 04:45 PM

It's possible I suppose, but that also winds up killing off the nobles who actually agree with Shojo's policies. Not an ideal strategy for maintaining your long-term power-base.

That implies that the nobles can be split into groups who consistently side with or against shojo. I would also suggest that the fact that Azure City has any nobility at all indicates that assassination attempts fail more often than not.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-01-03, 05:19 PM

That implies that the nobles can be split into groups who consistently side with or against shojo.
Given that Shojo's strategy is to play the nobles against each other so that he, in the eye of the storm, can rule as he sees fit, I'd say he would take very careful steps to ensure no one noble family is permanently in favour of his decissions.

I would also suggest that the fact that Azure City has any nobility at all indicates that assassination attempts fail more often than not.

If history is any guide, assassination attempts do fail quite often - usually because it is impossible for the assassin to access the target without bribing or otherwise removing low-level targets in the way, and that's not easy to do without raising alarms. It is a very low-odds (if high-reward) way of dealing with a rival, if they have any kind of security at all (but does have the advantage of being hard to track back to the source, even when they fail).

GW

Fyraltari

2018-01-03, 05:22 PM

It's possible I suppose, but that also winds up killing off the nobles who actually agree with Shojo's policies. Not an ideal strategy for maintaining your long-term power-base.

I don't think Shojo is concerns himself with "long term" that much.

I mean faced with the same problem, I would have used the paladins to conduct a systematic investigation of the nobility class and heavily fined/imprisoned/executed and striped of nobility those guilty of assassinations or other crimes and given their titles to commoners with a history of loyalty, competence and/or integrity. And tightened security, of course. It makes you look good in front of the common folk, gives you a bunch a new (public) servants you can trust, earn you the paladins' respect and trust for being a defender of justice, allows you to leep soundly at night, funds the treasury and doesn't leave your heir to deal with a huge festering pile of corruption and trained assassins. Plus you can pay for the whole thing with the convicted's money.

Shojo decided to gowith the complexed gamble that required him to pretend to have schizophrenia and estrange himself from his beloved nephew.

Guess that's why I'm not a benevolent dictator that manipulates people from the shadows.

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-03, 07:06 PM

I mean faced with the same problem, I would have used the paladins to conduct a systematic investigation of the nobility class and heavily fined/imprisoned/executed and striped of nobility those guilty of assassinations or other crimes and given their titles to commoners with a history of loyalty, competence and/or integrity. And tightened security, of course. It makes you look good in front of the common folk, gives you a bunch a new (public) servants you can trust, earn you the paladins' respect and trust for being a defender of justice, allows you to leep soundly at night, funds the treasury and doesn't leave your heir to deal with a huge festering pile of corruption and trained assassins. Plus you can pay for the whole thing with the convicted's money.

Given that Shojo's strategy is to play the nobles against each other so that he, in the eye of the storm, can rule as he sees fit, I'd say he would take very careful steps to ensure no one noble family is permanently in favour of his decisions.
I think there's something of a vacuum of evidence when it comes to Shojo's justifications, and both the ease and methods of assassination in D&D might differ somewhat from reality, but I will say it sounds like Azurite politics might be interesting to play around with.

I'd like to delve into it in more detail, but I feel the risk of investing in the urban intrigue is it gets harder to wrench away the focus to some unrelated portion of the wilderness for interacting with the Order and the Gates- not in terms of causal justification so much as in pacing and payoff. Miko's not exactly a political animal either... though I suppose, in some ways, she's closer to it than the other paladins.

It is a mistake to view anything Shojo or Miko does through the lens of reason, because they do not see the world as existing by logical rules. They know without a doubt that the world was made for them by gods who watch over them. Ideas such as fate are not only wishful thinking on their part; they are scientifically demonstrateable truths of the Stickverse.
That's partly what I'm driving at, yes. Miko inhabits a world where, for example, actual atheism is about as intellectually tenable as being a Flat Earth conspiracist. That might make for an amusing character, actually- some kind of high-level crackpot Expert who denies intelligent design or planar cosmology and tries to prove the conservation of matter and energy or the descent of all species from a common ancestor. Heh.

Fyraltari

2018-01-03, 07:31 PM

That's partly what I'm driving at, yes. Miko inhabits a world where, for example, actual atheism is about as intellectually tenable as being a Flat Earth conspiracist. That might make for an amusing character, actually- some kind of high-level crackpot Expert who denies intelligent design or planar cosmology and tries to prove the conservation of matter and energy or the descent of all species from a common ancestor. Heh.

One of my favorite jokes of the Discworld series is that in Small Gods the Omnian Church fervently claims that the world is a ball orbit the sun (they aren't sure which one the moon orbits) despite all empirical evidence to the contrary. There's also a god of atheism in a later book trying to invent evolution.

Though, in OOTS world a case could be made for atheism, depending on your understanding of the word god. That is an extremely charged subject and there are rules here so I'll just say that :
1) The OOTS gods clearly aren't Omnipotent, Omniscient and Benevolent.
2) The fact that several gods are in fact ascended mortals allowfor reasonnable doubt on their claim of making the universe (I'm pretty sure they did but theoritically someone could doubt that in-universe whithout being ridiculous).

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-04, 05:57 AM

One of my favorite jokes of the Discworld series is that in Small Gods the Omnian Church fervently claims that the world is a ball orbit the sun (they aren't sure which one the moon orbits) despite all empirical evidence to the contrary. There's also a god of atheism in a later book trying to invent evolution.

Though, in OOTS world a case could be made for atheism, depending on your understanding of the word god. That is an extremely charged subject and there are rules here so I'll just say that :
1) The OOTS gods clearly aren't Omnipotent, Omniscient and Benevolent.
2) The fact that several gods are in fact ascended mortals allowfor reasonnable doubt on their claim of making the universe (I'm pretty sure they did but theoritically someone could doubt that in-universe whithout being ridiculous).
Small Gods and Feet of Clay are my two favourite Discworld books.

There's certainly some role for scholarly disagreement on various aspects of the Gods' roles and metaphysical abilities, but you can only choose to 'not believe in the Gods' in the same sense as you can choose to 'not believe in the Government', if you knew for a fact that the Government would one day inevitably arrest and judge you based on the state of your soul. I mean, Rich has constructed Dwarven society as being quite brutally moulded by the parameters of their afterlives, but as far as I can tell most human societies in OOTSverse would be subjected to similar pressures by the existence of the Seven Heavens and Nine Hells (and/or their chaotic variants.) Living in abject terror of divine judgement is something many humans have done in our own universe, never mind one where the clergy have visibly miraculous powers to heal and bless and there are reliable eye-witness accounts of devils and succubi. All the theocratic tendencies of regular human societies would be multiplied by a factor of ten.

The question here isn't, "why is Miko how she is?", the question is "why isn't everyone else?"

Fyraltari

2018-01-04, 06:38 AM

Small Gods and Feet of Clay are my two favourite Discworld books.
If I had to name two it'd be Small Gods and Hogsfather.

There's certainly some role for scholarly disagreement on various aspects of the Gods' roles and metaphysical abilities, but you can only choose to 'not believe in the Gods' in the same sense as you can choose to 'not believe in the Government', if you knew for a fact that the Government would one day inevitably arrest and judge you based on the state of your soul.
Agreed except for the fact that Roy's apatheism (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) doesn't not seem to have been an issue rearding his afterlife.

I mean, Rich has constructed Dwarven society as being quite brutally moulded by the parameters of their afterlives, but as far as I can tell most human societies in OOTSverse would be subjected to similar pressures by the existence of the Seven Heavens and Nine Hells (and/or their chaotic variants.) Living in abject terror of divine judgement is something many humans have done in our own universe, never mind one where the clergy have visibly miraculous powers to heal and bless and there are reliable eye-witness accounts of devils and succubi. All the theocratic tendencies of regular human societies would be multiplied by a factor of ten.

The question here isn't, "why is Miko how she is?", the question is "why isn't everyone else?"
Well there are mitigating factors here :
Everyone presumably know each god's alignment, so anyone trying to build a theocracy centered around a god with "Evil" in theirs will have big trouble. Good gods presumably don't want to strip their flock of their free will and their servants who are one step of alignment removed* at most would in most case not want that either. And if someone, say a Lawful Neutral servant of a Lawful Good god goes too far for the god's liking he could spectacularily fall which would decredibilise the whole church.

And I don't think Chaotic Neutral deities would be that interested in barking orders at everybody.

So basically we are left with Lawful and True Neutral theocracies. But this is a world where they invariably have to deal with small groups of megalomaniacal overpowered "heroes". I would guess most end up like Malack's : stillborn.

For sake of completeness I must mention that if Hel did use to receive as much worship as she remembers (nostalgia googles, anyone?) it is possible that there were Helish theocracies on the previous world. Maybe that's why Loki wanted her off-game?

*How does that work with afterlife, by the way? Does a NG follower of a LG god get a pass to hang out with his boss on the LG plane, or does the LG god have a summer palace on the NG plane or what?

Jasdoif

2018-01-04, 06:04 PM

How does that work with afterlife, by the way? Does a NG follower of a LG god get a pass to hang out with his boss on the LG plane, or does the LG god have a summer palace on the NG plane or what?If you're asking about in D&D...the former (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#bringingBacktheDead).
When a living creature dies, its soul departs its body, leaves the Material Plane, travels through the Astral Plane, and goes to abide on the plane where the creature’s deity resides. If the creature did not worship a deity, its soul departs to the plane corresponding to its alignment.Complete Divine elaborates on this a bit, especially with a couple edge cases (the standard Greyhawk deities who reside on the Material Plane, characters who worship an entire pantheon instead of an individual deity....).

Fyraltari

2018-01-04, 06:22 PM

If you're asking about in D&D...the former (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#bringingBacktheDead).Complete Divine elaborates on this a bit, especially with a couple edge cases (the standard Greyhawk deities who reside on the Material Plane, characters who worship an entire pantheon instead of an individual deity....).

Well I was asking for OOTS but I see no reason why that should not apply here.

Thanks, for the info.

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-04, 06:34 PM

Well there are mitigating factors here :
Everyone presumably know each god's alignment, so anyone trying to build a theocracy centered around a god with "Evil" in theirs will have big trouble.

Good gods presumably don't want to strip their flock of their free will and their servants who are one step of alignment removed* at most would in most case not want that either. And if someone, say a Lawful Neutral servant of a Lawful Good god goes too far for the god's liking he could spectacularily fall which would decredibilise the whole church.

And I don't think Chaotic Neutral deities would be that interested in barking orders at everybody.

So basically we are left with Lawful and True Neutral theocracies. But this is a world where they invariably have to deal with small groups of megalomaniacal overpowered "heroes". I would guess most end up like Malack's : stillborn.

That's an interesting analysis, and probably partly valid, certainly insofar as Chaotic and Lawful deities would emphasise different ethics and values. But I think this isn't so much a case of the Gods imposing their desires from the top down as it is a case of mortals' natural incentives shaping society from the bottom up. The broad point is that the quality of the afterlife you receive is an overwhelming incentive compared to anything that goes on within your biological lifespan. Death is slow, but death is sure (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eym3nBIxMR8), and getting right with the Gods is your key to the right afterlife, so the people who commune with and visibly channel blessings from said Gods are going to have immense social influence. Nobody is going to do jack that might jeopardise their celestial 401K without checking with the clergy first.

There's something of a question-mark over why anyone is Evil in a universe where that nets you eternal torment, but one could imagine that Evil religions function as a kind of ongoing spiritual Ponzi scheme, with disproportionate benefits accruing to a tiny minority of especially powerful or persuasive followers. Contrary to the tome of fiends (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Morality_and_Fiends#There_is_no_Salvation_or_Redem ption_in_D.26D) I don't think it's all fair and balanced, but there's certainly no clear long-term benefit to being Evil if you're not acting in league with an Evil deity. They presumably don't tolerate freeloaders.

So from both ends of the spectrum, there's this intense pressure to defer to the clergy as mouthpieces for the will of the Gods. Good deities might have relatively laissez-faire attitudes when it comes to the minutiae of daily life, but that just means they're being benevolent dictators- not that the dictatorship doesn't exist.

Peelee

2018-01-04, 06:41 PM

There's something of a question-mark over why anyone is Evil in a universe where that nets you eternal torment

You seem to live in a world where all people always think things through to their logical conclusion, and never make any decisions (or even major life choices) actually thinking about the consequences.

Imean, don't get me wrong, that sounds like a delightful place, and I'd love to go there. It just doesn't resemble the real world very well.

factotum

2018-01-05, 03:31 AM

There's something of a question-mark over why anyone is Evil in a universe where that nets you eternal torment

Real life is littered with examples of people doing stuff which they know is likely to end up badly for them, but they go ahead anyway because getting the immediate benefit outweighs some nebulous potential consequences in the future. It's the same logic that leads people to buy lottery tickets--the chances of winning a major prize are insanely low and no-one who thought it through logically would buy the things, but people don't think about it logically, they just think "I might be able to retire from this crappy job and never have to do a day of work again!".

RatElemental

2018-01-05, 03:49 AM

There's also the fact that only the evil afterlives are really meant to be hells. The neutral ones (mechanus, limbo and... concordant opposition?) aren't really bad places to be, really.

And as for piety, once again you don't need to be pious to get into an alignment afterlife.

Fyraltari

2018-01-05, 04:04 AM

That's an interesting analysis, and probably partly valid, certainly insofar as Chaotic and Lawful deities would emphasise different ethics and values. But I think this isn't so much a case of the Gods imposing their desires from the top down as it is a case of mortals' natural incentives shaping society from the bottom up. The broad point is that the quality of the afterlife you receive is an overwhelming incentive compared to anything that goes on within your biological lifespan. Death is slow, but death is sure (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eym3nBIxMR8), and getting right with the Gods is your key to the right afterlife, so the people who commune with and visibly channel blessings from said Gods are going to have immense social influence. Nobody is going to do jack that might jeopardise their celestial 401K without checking with the clergy first.
The thing is Good, Evil, Chaos and Law are, within this universe, physical forces that can be measured by mortals and they have the testimony of people that have physically beento heaven to know that ultimately, this is all that matters. Of course many people will ask the clergy for spiritual guidance, just like in RL, with the exception that here they can choose people who they know can't be evil and have little chance to be neutral.
Besides, being demonstrably real is a double edged sword for gods : people can't doubt your existence but they can doubt your worth. Think of Om from Discworld : since he signed his covenant with Saint Brutha he stopped with the miracles and the prophets and all that and he has the fastest religion on the Disk because of that, because his followers can think he isn't a self absorbed vain idiot like the rest of Dunmanfestine.

So from both ends of the spectrum, there's this intense pressure to defer to the clergy as mouthpieces for the will of the Gods. Good deities might have relatively laissez-faire attitudes when it comes to the minutiae of daily life, but that just means they're being benevolent dictators- not that the dictatorship doesn't exist.
If you consider that a dictatorship that doesn't weigh on its subject is still a dictatorship then all gods are inherently dictators on account of having the power to wipe out humanity if they so choose.

There's something of a question-mark over why anyone is Evil in a universe where that nets you eternal torment, but one could imagine that Evil religions function as a kind of ongoing spiritual Ponzi scheme, with disproportionate benefits accruing to a tiny minority of especially powerful or persuasive followers. Contrary to the tome of fiends (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Morality_and_Fiends#There_is_no_Salvation_or_Redem ption_in_D.26D) I don't think it's all fair and balanced, but there's certainly no clear long-term benefit to being Evil if you're not acting in league with an Evil deity. They presumably don't tolerate freeloaders.
Yeah, I don't think they are nice servants that can't benefit them anymore either (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouHaveOutlivedYourUsefulness).
I think its more of a survivorship bias thing everybody think they've got what it takes to rule in hell despite the fact that 99,99999% of them are necessarily wrong. That and not thinking ahead.

I think there is a bit of misunderstanding betweenthe two of us about what a theocracy is here:
I have been trying to explain why I don't think the world of OOTS wouldbe rife with nations where clergy and state are one and only and disregard their subjects' well-being. Is that what you mean or do you ascribe a broader meaning to the term?

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-05, 09:12 AM

@Peelee, factotum: There are certainly individuals who wouldn't respond to these incentives, basically because they combine innate cruelty with poor impulse control and indifference to punishment, but those individuals are called psychopaths and are thankfully rare. The vast majority of people would respond to either pressure from peers, the long-term benefits of a cosy afterlife, or would actively seek the patronage of an Evil god if they had the inclination and self-perceived ability.

And as for piety, once again you don't need to be pious to get into an alignment afterlife.
Yes, but you do need to be Lawful Good, which still amounts to a kind of 'proxy religion'. That's a standard of behaviour that you need to adhere to if you want to reserve an apartment suite on Cloud Nine, which means talking to the Clerics who talk to the Devas who actually perform the audit process is... highly advisable. (I mean, that hundred-foot-tall book wreathed in holy fire sounds very much like a religious text to me.)

The thing is Good, Evil, Chaos and Law are, within this universe, physical forces that can be measured by mortals and they have the testimony of people that have physically beento heaven to know that ultimately, this is all that matters. Of course many people will ask the clergy for spiritual guidance, just like in RL, with the exception that here they can choose people who they know can't be evil and have little chance to be neutral.
Besides, being demonstrably real is a double edged sword for gods : people can't doubt your existence but they can doubt your worth.
Sure, you can doubt the Gods' worth. But if you're a Dwarf and fail to die in battle, no amount of reasonable skepticism about Thor's wisdom and prudence is going to keep you out of Hel's clutches. I presume that a Goblin who fails to meet the Dark One's standard of conduct and didn't work hard to please some other more amenable deity is not going to fare well when they shuffle off the mortal coil. Even if humans have a wider range of destinations to chose from, the smart strategy is always going to involve picking a particular cosmic patron and consulting with the relevant experts on how to meet their standards.

I'm not defining 'Theocracy' in terms of 'bad wrong oppressive medieval state'. I mean in the sense of 'state where religion and political power are conflated and most social values are derived from religious doctrine'. My point is that, in our universe, most human societies have historically given religious authorities a large degree of political and economic influence, even when they couldn't multiply loaves and fishes on a regular basis or connect-call to your ancestors. I don't see that influence being in any way diminished when they can.

.

Peelee

2018-01-05, 09:21 AM

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-05, 09:34 AM

Again, in the world in your head, yes. In the real world, not so much...
To a large degree this is the case in the real world. Leaving aside warfare, the only people in modern societies who regularly go about killing other members of that society are either psychopaths or those hoping to climb the pyramid of a criminal organisation. Because the vast majority of human beings respond to the incentives of effective legal deterrence combined with the benefits of long-term career investment.

Now imagine what happens in a world where any kind of wrong-doing- not just the openly violent kind- is ultimately held against you and the punishments aren't just severe, but potentially infinite. There might be differing definitions of wrong-doing, depending on who you pray to, but you're gonna have to serve somebody (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtIEYjNZgiU).

hamishspence

2018-01-05, 09:41 AM

Roy demonstrates that in the OOTS-verse, you don't have to serve any particular deity to get into the afterlife that suits you.

The churches in the OOTS-verse are powerful - but that doesn't mean everybody, or even most people, are actively devoted to any specific deity.

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-05, 09:50 AM

The churches in the OOTS-verse are powerful - but that doesn't mean everybody, or even most people, are actively devoted to any specific deity.
Not all religions are necessarily focused on a particular deity either. Replace 'The Tao' or 'Confucian Ethics' with 'Lawful Goodness' and the social effects are going to be much the same. (For example, Eugene's refusal to fulfill the terms of the Blood Oath has not worked out well for either him or his descendants. There are, quite evidently, standards of conduct that such characters need to fulfill or face severe consequences, and a summoned Deva could probably have told him as much.)

hamishspence

2018-01-05, 09:59 AM

Roy theorises here that knowing there's an afterlife:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html

means a higher incidence of warfare - people don't take as much care with their lives as they would if they didn't know.

However, his conclusions are a bit dubious.

Peelee

2018-01-05, 10:12 AM

To a large degree this is the case in the real world. Leaving aside warfare, the only people in modern societies who regularly go about killing other members of that society are either psychopaths or those hoping to climb the pyramid of a criminal organisation.

There is a vast swath of evil actions that are not murder. Just throwing that out there.

RatElemental

2018-01-05, 05:23 PM

Yes, but you do need to be Lawful Good, which still amounts to a kind of 'proxy religion'. That's a standard of behaviour that you need to adhere to if you want to reserve an apartment suite on Cloud Nine, which means talking to the Clerics who talk to the Devas who actually perform the audit process is... highly advisable. (I mean, that hundred-foot-tall book wreathed in holy fire sounds very much like a religious text to me.)

Why lawful good? Bytopia accepts lawful good AND neutral good people, and Elysium is explicitly for the neutral good ones. Ysgard accepts both chaotic good and chaotic neutral people, with Arborea being just for the chaotic good ones and limbo for the chaotic neutrals for whom Ysgard is not a good fit. And then there's Mechanus for lawful neutral people, but they have a chance to enter Arcadia too. Most of those are explicitly paradises, and I could see Limbo and Mechanus being alright places to be for the right mindsets.

georgie_leech

2018-01-05, 08:21 PM

Why lawful good? Bytopia accepts lawful good AND neutral good people, and Elysium is explicitly for the neutral good ones. Ysgard accepts both chaotic good and chaotic neutral people, with Arborea being just for the chaotic good ones and limbo for the chaotic neutrals for whom Ysgard is not a good fit. And then there's Mechanus for lawful neutral people, but they have a chance to enter Arcadia too. Most of those are explicitly paradises, and I could see Limbo and Mechanus being alright places to be for the right mindsets.

I'd consider myself more Neutral Good than Lawful Neutral, and even I could see Mechanus being a fascinating place. Though the Chaotic part of me would rather have the freedom to visit rather than stay there for eternity, so I probably wouldn't end up there.:smallbiggrin:

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-06, 07:34 AM

There is a vast swath of evil actions that are not murder. Just throwing that out there.
Sure, but none that you can get away with under the all-seeing eye of the celestial bureaucracy. 'Big Odin is watching you', so to speak.

Why lawful good? Bytopia accepts lawful good AND neutral good people, and Elysium is explicitly for the neutral good ones.
I think is somewhat missing the point. There might be room for variation across the law/chaos axis, but there are massive, massive incentives against being evil during life, and even neutrality still kinda sucks by comparison. (The differential in outcomes is merely 'infinity' as opposed to 'twice infinity'.)

Also, there are usually family members and past acquaintances that you'd want to meet up with again. Since maintaining social bonds is a pretty universal human impulse, one can assume that most mortals will be under significant pressure to conform to the entry standards for a particular afterlife. (Particularly when you can visit your great-great-great-great-grandmother via Plane Shift and hear her ask why she doesn't have great-great-great-great-grandkids yet.)

woweedd

2018-01-06, 09:07 AM

i've stated before my theory of the evil afterlife as a Ponzi scheme. Evil people are, by definition, selfish pricks. And, in the Evil afterlife, if you're a selfish enough prick, you end up becoming a Demon or Devil or Daemon, ruling the roost as a King High Bastard for the rest of your immortal existence. Sure, you had to go through a lot of **** to get it, but so what? If someone's power-hungry enough,they'll tolerate just about anything for more power. Sure, statistically-speaking, they're far more likely to just spend the next thousand years as a Lemure, getting stomped on by the big guys for the rest of time, but, well, frankly, Evil people are not well-known for having a realistic assessment of their own abilities, ya know? Plus, i've been partial to the theory that the Afterlives aren't rewards or punishments, (Why would they be? There are both Good and Evil Gods, after all, so it's not like the universe is based one way or the other.) they're just the natural results of having worlds entirely inhabited by one alignment. A World with nothing but Good people in it is gonna become a Utopia, while a world composed of nothing but Evil *******s is gonna be exactly what the Evil afterlife looks like: A bunch of pricks stepping over one another to become King Of the Mountain. Evil people can only be successful when they can exploit those who are not Evil. In a world with nothing but Evil? Everyone's just being a jerk to each other, all the time, and nothing's getting better. It's a moral Prisoner's Dilemma. Everyone's nice? Happiness for all. Everyone's a jerk? Happiness for no one.

brian 333

2018-01-06, 02:16 PM

Ever try to tell a teenaged boy not to ride a shopping cart off the roof of his house?

"It won't happen to me!" is the refrain of that song, and far too many people deny reality this way. "It doesn't matter that hundreds of kids are addicted and living lives of misery, it won't happen to me," is usually the last thing a kid says before becoming addicted.

I once heard a preacher, (Southern Baptist,) say that when he was a younger man he fell by the wayside because nobody ever told him how much fun sinning could be.

So, don't be in a hurry to write off the idea that a great many believe, (usually without justification,) that they are simply too smart, too courageous, too agile, or too lucky to fall victim to the things which crush others because they are somehow exceptional and immune to the consequences.

Fyraltari

2018-01-06, 02:39 PM

there are massive, massive incentives against being evil during life, and even neutrality still kinda sucks by comparison.

I am fine with that.

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-07, 10:44 AM

@woweedd, brian 333: I don't disagree with any of what you're saying, per se. It's entirely possible that a fair swathe of evil-inclined individuals would over-estimate their chances of climbing the heap. (I'm guessing that Nale had some vague ambition to become a half-fiend and thence a prince of the lower planes, probably after attaining world domination in some form, for example. Sabine would dig out some variant rules (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiend_Folio#Dungeons_&_Dragons_3rd_edition) if need be.)

Tarquin never seems to talk about his long-term retirement package, though, and he's clearly a guy who's both managed to climb the heap and isn't exactly a spring chicken. Did Malack negotiate a settlement on his behalf with Nergal, or something?

Anyway- I've probably bitched enough for the time being. I'm happy to leave it there for now.

Peelee

2018-01-07, 11:22 AM

Sure, but none that you can get away with under the all-seeing eye of the celestial bureaucracy. 'Big Odin is watching you', so to speak.

And? You act like the same isnt true in the real world. People who enroll in college and then don't go to any classes, or people who have a court date and then don't show, for instance. Things that they know for a fact will end badly for them, yet they do it anyway. Not doing homework that is due the next day is a tiny issue, but then so is swiping a few copper could from your sibling, while stabbing somebody in broad daylight in front of a dozen witnesses and cameras all around is analogous to, well, stabbing somebody while knowing deities exist.

Again, if you live in a world where people don't make stupid decisions despite knowing that there will be consequences and yet still do them anyway, that sounds amazing, but that place does not resemble the real world.

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-07, 03:19 PM

And? You act like the same isnt true in the real world. People who enroll in college and then don't go to any classes, or people who have a court date and then don't show, for instance. Things that they know for a fact will end badly for them, yet they do it anyway. Not doing homework that is due the next day is a tiny issue, but then so is swiping a few copper could from your sibling, while stabbing somebody in broad daylight in front of a dozen witnesses and cameras all around is analogous to, well, stabbing somebody while knowing deities exist.
Remarkably few people in modern societies actually stab victims in front of surveillance cameras. Sure, it happens all the time. People get struck by lightning all the time. But that's not a statistically accurate characterisation of how society works.

The consequences of skipping college classes are generally not good, but they're not analogous to eternal torment, or even life in prison. By comparison, imagine a world where the lobbyist who successfully swings enough votes to- I don't know, subsidise bear bile farming (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bile_bear)- knew as an absolute certainty that this was going to send them to Hell. These people aren't stupid. I expect that would have some impact on regulatory capture.

Of course, this actually leads to some rather paradoxical conclusions when it comes to the nature of morality. If all Good deeds have a potential eternal reward attached, it becomes impossible to distinguish the genuinely selfless from the rationally self-interested. That's rather the point from a social-engineering perspective, but it means that informing everyone on Earth about the situation in the afterlives makes genuine Goodness almost impossible to demonstrate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Good_Place_(season_1)#ep11). It also means you have a much stronger moral obligation to keep Evil people alive than Good ones. In fact, assisted suicide for the innocent is arguably the best thing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shantanu#Shantanu_&_Ganga) you can do for them.

So, yeah. It's a very strange kind of world. I'm not saying I'd be entirely comfortable with it, and it certainly doesn't resemble OOTSverse all that closely. But I do think it's interesting.

Peelee

2018-01-07, 04:43 PM

Remarkably few people in modern societies actually stab victims in front of surveillance cameras. Sure, it happens all the time. People get struck by lightning all the time. But that's not a statistically accurate characterisation of how society works.

The consequences of skipping college classes are generally not good, but they're not analogous to eternal torment, or even life in prison.

Skipping college classes don't need to be analogous to eternal torment. It just needs to demonstrate that people will do things that have absolute consequences that the people know about, because they simply do not consider long-term consequences if their actions. That answers your question of, "why would people commit Evil acts in a world with confirmed after lives?" Ten gold says a good amount of people in Evil afternoons did not peg themselves as Evil, and thought they would be going to a better afterlife.

As for the greater Evils, like stabbing someone in front of surveillance cameras, yes, it is not statistically relevant. That doesnt matter. What matters is that anyone who would do such a thing if almost certainly thinking one of two things - either they do not care about the consequences (regardless of how ridiculous that may seem to you or me), it that they think they can somehow get away with it (again, regardless of how ridiculous that belief may be). Both of these beliefs translate perfectly well to a D&D world. (If you can think of any other thing one may think as they do such a thing, feel free to throw that in, but my gold is on it also translating well to the D&D cosmology structure; simple psychosis, for instance.)

factotum

2018-01-07, 05:14 PM

As for the greater Evils, like stabbing someone in front of surveillance cameras, yes, it is not statistically relevant. That doesnt matter. What matters is that anyone who would do such a thing if almost certainly thinking one of two things

Well, they might also be unaware that the camera is there. I suppose the nearest analogy to that in the Evil person would be someone who believes the Gods can't possibly be watching *all* the time and maybe they'll get away with it this time...

Fyraltari

2018-01-07, 05:21 PM

it that they think they can somehow get away with it

Lichdom, ahoy!

RatElemental

2018-01-07, 07:49 PM

There's also the possibility of ascendance as an evil deity. I once read a story (about a campaign, I believe) about a guy who sacrificed thousands of innocent civilians, saying a prayer to himself after each one, and then became a god.

Of course, once he was a god, he was a weak god and now perfectly fair game for the other gods to gang up on, so that method didn't end well for him. We do have at least one example of an evil mortal ascending to evil godhood in OotS and not immediately being destroyed, though.

brian 333

2018-01-08, 12:04 AM

Kills methodically, leaving the same 'signature' at each site = Lawful Evil
Kills opportunistically using methods suitable to the situation = Neutral Evil
Kills random targets on a whim = Chaotic Evil
Kills in front of witnesses, especially electronic ones = Stupid Evil

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-08, 07:54 AM

Skipping college classes don't need to be analogous to eternal torment. It just needs to demonstrate that people will do things that have absolute consequences that the people know about, because they simply do not consider long-term consequences if their actions. That answers your question of, "why would people commit Evil acts in a world with confirmed after lives?" Ten gold says a good amount of people in Evil afternoons did not peg themselves as Evil, and thought they would be going to a better afterlife.
Yeah... not in a world with Detect Evil and Commune spells.

If your point here is simply that some non-zero number of people would still be Evil in such a world, then, yeah, fine, I concede your point. Belkar is a fair example of that kind of not-really-thinking-ahead kind of person. But they would be a tiny minority in a world filled with people bending over backwards to secure their luxury condo in the world above.

Lichdom, ahoy!
Yes. The logical long-term options for Evil characters are to either skip the afterlife entirely and/or pledge yourself in service to some powerful demon or evil God. Xykon, Malack, Durkula, Sabine, Qar and Redcloak are all fair examples. Tsukiko, Nale and Kubota might be failed attempts at something similar, though it's never really articulated.

Peelee

2018-01-08, 02:09 PM

Yeah... not in a world with Detect Evil and Commune spells.

A world with magic =/= a world with magic available readily and freely to all. We can cure and treat a myriad of diseases, yet thousands still die every day from easily cured/,treated diseases due to lack of access. You keep assuming an ideal world, where all have access to the benefits of said world. Not even the Star Trek universe is able to provide that.

If you want to write about such a world, it would be a paradise. It would be really interesting, id bet. But it would be a huge departure from every world I've ever read any work set in. Your ideals are laudable, but they do not equate in the OOTS world.

hroþila

2018-01-08, 02:18 PM

Fyraltari

2018-01-08, 02:42 PM

I would also point out that, even if in our world there are no certainties about any afterlives or lack thereof, functionally many people throughout history have been both 100% convinced that they would face judgment after death, and absolutely Evil.

But evil is not a measurable quantity in our universe, we can't detect it with two worde and a wave of the hand.

Leaving aside the question if someone can truly be "evil" I really doubt any single one of these person thought themself evil. Humans are really good at finding justifications for everything they do no matter how... unpleasant .

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-08, 04:12 PM

But evil is not a measurable quantity in our universe, we can't detect it with two worde and a wave of the hand.
Basically this. I mean, I don't think that standard D&D clerical magic can necessarily create an earthly paradise- there's a limit to how many 'create food and water' spells you can cast each day, for example, so depending on just how common 10th-level clerics are it's conceivable that large chunks of the population would still have to toil in the fields. However, Detect Evil is a first-level cleric spell, and Paladins cast it at will.

That's quite different from access to medicine in our world, because it's not a question of money or education or technical development. Real developing nations have no shortage of priests, yogi and imams. In D&D, all they need is sufficient faith and a decent Wis score, and boom, they are now infallible arbiters of an individual's moral worth.

Peelee

2018-01-08, 06:20 PM

Basically this. I mean, I don't think that standard D&D clerical magic can necessarily create an earthly paradise- there's a limit to how many 'create food and water' spells you can cast each day, for example, so depending on just how common 10th-level clerics are it's conceivable that large chunks of the population would still have to toil in the fields. However, Detect Evil is a first-level cleric spell, and Paladins cast it at will.

That's quite different from access to medicine in our world, because it's not a question of money or education or technical development.

Yes, it is absolutely question of money (and, technically, education and technical development). Getting a spell cast as a service costs money. IIRC, even a 0-level spell by a first level caster is 5GP. That is very significant amount of money to most NPCs in D&D. One can't just up and get a Cleric or Paladin level willy-nilly. It takes education, training, and the mental and physical ability. And, by the rule books that explicitly tell us how that world works, they charge for the services that they can provide due to said education and training.

Lacuna Caster

2018-01-08, 07:31 PM

Yes, it is absolutely question of money (and, technically, education and technical development). Getting a spell cast as a service costs money. IIRC, even a 0-level spell by a first level caster is 5GP. That is very significant amount of money to most NPCs in D&D. One can't just up and get a Cleric or Paladin level willy-nilly.
True, but if you're referring to real-world developing nations as an example of unequal access, it's fair to point out that even such countries don't have a problem finding religious leaders, and that seeing to the spiritual health of their followers is kind of their job.

As such, I don't find it difficult to imagine that the town friar who listens to everyone's confessions could spend ten minutes scanning the congregation for signs of malevolence every Sunday. Or that missionary paladins from wealthier nations couldn't go roaming the country rooting out evil and healing the sick- which is, after all, essentially their raison d'etre.

I'd also like to imagine you'd get a little more international transfer of wealth on a planet where 'indifference to systemic inequality' probably counts as at least non-Good behaviour and thereby factors into your afterlife. So there's that.