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Kajorma
2007-08-21, 11:35 PM
Okay,
This is a question that has come up with my druid, and I can't find an official rule for it. The DM wants something from WoC, but any pointers in the right direction would be helpful.

Basically the question is this:
If a druid is in crocodile form, can he make a trip attempt without provoking an attack of opportunity.

I am assuming he does not have the Imp. Unarmed strike feat, or the Imp trip feat.

The rules say that you make an unarmed touch attack and provoke AoOs as normal, or that you use a weapon and do not provoke an AoO. My thinking is that while wild shaped, a druid can attack with natural weapons without the AoO. The problem is, none of these weapons (such as bite) are listed as weapons that you can make trip attempts with.

He's basically left it to me to find the rule.

Damionte
2007-08-21, 11:45 PM
Do crocodiles naturally have improved trip the way wolves and fightign dogs do?

kpenguin
2007-08-21, 11:47 PM
A croc has improved grab, but not improved trip. You have to use an unarmed strike to trip in croc-form or your DM can houserule that you can use your bite or tail.

Damionte
2007-08-21, 11:56 PM
A croc has improved grab, but not improved trip. You have to use an unarmed strike to trip in croc-form or your DM can houserule that you can use your bite or tail.

Yeah, those thsose would still be unarmed strikes. so I guess the answer is no, you have to do it like everyone else.

kpenguin
2007-08-22, 12:07 AM
Yeah, those thsose would still be unarmed strikes. so I guess the answer is no, you have to do it like everyone else.

Natural weapons are different from unarmed strikes. Otherwise you could flurry with your claws.

Nu
2007-08-22, 12:21 AM
I don't think you can attempt to trip with a croc's bite or tail slap. You can grapple with the bite, but I don't think you can trip.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-08-22, 01:13 AM
The Sage suggests that claws, bites, tentacles and tail slaps can be used for trip attacks.


When a monster uses a special attack option, such as
trip or sunder, must it make the attack with its primary
natural weapon? Are there any limits on which natural
weapons can be used in a trip or sunder attack? When a
monster has multiple natural weapons, can it use each of
those weapons to make trip or sunder attacks?

A monster with natural weaponry doesn’t need to use its
primary natural weapon to make sunder or trip attacks. If it
uses a secondary weapon, however, the penalty for a secondary
weapon applies to the attack (–5 or –2 with the Multiattack
feat). In the case of sunder, the secondary weapon penalty
applies to the opposed attack roll the creature makes to
accomplish the sunder attack. In the case of a trip attack, the
secondary weapon penalty applies to the melee touch attack roll
the creature makes to start the trip attack.
A creature can make a trip attack with just about any
natural weapon, although the DM must exercise some common
sense in the matter. Claw and bite attacks are excellent for trip
attempts, as are tentacle attacks. Since tripping in the D&D
game involves grabbing a foe and pulling him down, stings,
gores, hooves, and most slam attacks should not work for
tripping (although tail slaps work).
A natural weapon must deal bludgeoning or slashing
damage to be useful for a sunder attack. Gore and sting attacks
deal only piercing damage and thus aren’t useful for such
attacks (see page 312 in the Monster Manual for a list of
natural weapons and their damage types), but again, some
common sense is in order here. Creatures with pointy fangs,
such as monstrous spiders or big snakes, probably deal only
piecing damage with their bite attacks and aren’t really smart
enough to make sunder attacks anyway.
In either case, a monster making a sunder or trip attack
follows all the rules a player character uses for the attack in
question, including provoking an attack of opportunity.
A monster with several natural weapons can make a sunder
or trip attack with each one, provided that it uses the full attack
action, and its natural weaponry is useful for the attack in
question.
Note that some monsters have special trip or sunder attacks.
In such cases, use the rules given in the monster’s description,
not the general rules discussed here. For example a wolf can
make a free trip attempt when it hits with its bite attack and
does not provoke an attack of opportunity when doing so.
Likewise a bebilith’s rend armor attack is similar to a sunder
attack, but it works only on a foe’s armor, and only when the
bebilith hits with both claws. Rend armor doesn’t provoke an
attack of opportunity.

(My emphasis)

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-22, 04:54 AM
Gore/Headbutt/Slam is used more for Bullrush, and Hooves/Claws more effective in Overrun>Trample attempts.:smallbiggrin:

Kajorma
2007-08-22, 02:01 PM
Thanks for the replies!

Particularly the quote from Silvanos.

"A creature can make a trip attack with just about any natural weapon, although the DM must exercise some common sense in the matter."

I was thinking about the same in regards to turning into an eagle, and using talons to trip... it just doesn't make much sense. (Though I suppose there is a -4 for being small already, so maybe that's all you need)

The question I have is what source book that info came from. Or, where did Sage get the information. While it agrees with what I was thinking on the subject I doubt my DM will accept "Some guys on the internet said so" :tongue:

Dr. Weasel
2007-08-22, 02:21 PM
He is the source, really. He works for Wizards and is supposed to be the final say in rules questions, though some of his decisions make little sense.

Here's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/ask) his column.

Kajorma
2007-08-22, 02:49 PM
Ah!

Even better. Of course, I can't get to the wizards site from here, but I'll check that out when I get home.

Thanks!

Blue Paladin
2007-08-22, 05:04 PM
Since tripping in the D&D game involves grabbing a foe and pulling him down, stings, gores, hooves, and most slam attacks should not work for tripping (although tail slaps work).I find this incredibly lazy on Skip's part. Tripping does not necessarily mean grabbing and pulling! Seriously, the easiest way I know of to trip someone is: hook leg behind target's legs and push (step one can be replaced by a kneeling accomplice, appropriately placed). Mechanically speaking, all Trip is is an attack that leaves your opponent prone. A good hard shove should be able to "trip" someone just as easily as grabbing some guy by the collar. Gores, hooves, slams work just fine, thanks. Eagle talons, less so, I'll admit. You can say he dives to the ground to escape your raking of the eyeballs. Different flavor, same result.

Back on topic, in crocodile form, you gain natural attacks, which do not provoke AoO for attacking unarmed. The Trip action itself provokes an AoO.

Although if you're wildshaped into a crocodile, you would be well served to make use of the croc's special ability, Improved Grab. It only works on Small size creatures (unless you use Enlarge Person first), and activates only on the bite, but it's still a good addition to your arsenal.


The problem is, none of these weapons (such as bite) are listed as weapons that you can make trip attempts with.That doesn't matter. You can make a trip attempt with any weapon, or even none at all. Although if you try to Trip barehanded (and don't have IUS and Improved Trip), you end up provoking two separate AoO's.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-08-23, 02:04 AM
Back on topic, in crocodile form, you gain natural attacks, which do not provoke AoO for attacking unarmed. The Trip action itself provokes an AoO.

No, the Trip attack part does not provoke, but the unarmed attack part does.


Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.


That doesn't matter. You can make a trip attempt with any weapon, or even none at all. Although if you try to Trip barehanded (and don't have IUS and Improved Trip), you end up provoking two separate AoO's.


Not all weapons can be used for tripping. The weapon's entry will mention if it is eligible.


Tripping with a Weapon: Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks.

Blue Paladin
2007-08-24, 10:06 AM
I stand corrected. The Improved Trip feat negates the AoO for unarmed trips, and armed trips don't provoke an AoO anyway. This could be an interesting weekend when I bring this up with my DM...