Making the "I have the most specials" Guy

[GrayDeath]

Heyo.


Last game a relatively new player brought a four class combo to a mostly core l6 game, and he chose those classes (Monk, sorcerer, paladin and ranger) bale cause he, erroneously, thought their loads of different specials/Class features would rock.


Now this got me thinking.

Let's assume a start at level 10 and the game ending before L 20.

What would be the class and prestige class and race mix that gives the most "special" stuff.
Like resistances, slas, class features, bloodlines etc.

Assuming 3.p, all first party printed and online sources.

Thanks in advance for your help, and merry Christmas! :smallbiggrin:

[SangoProduction]

Heyo.


Last game a relatively new player brought a four class combo to a mostly core l6 game, and he chose those classes (Monk, sorcerer, paladin and ranger) bale cause he, erroneously, thought their loads of different specials/Class features would rock.


Now this got me thinking.

Let's assume a start at level 10 and the game ending before L 20.

What would be the class and prestige class and race mix that gives the most "special" stuff.
Like resistances, slas, class features, bloodlines etc.

Assuming 3.p, all first party printed and online sources.

Thanks in advance for your help, and merry Christmas! :smallbiggrin:

I'll assume spellcasting doesn't count, as that's kinda cheating. I'll also assume you want most "unique" specials, rather than levels that give +1 daily use of "special". Feats also aren't incredibly special.

Given that, Straight monk does get you a bunch of specials. Not synergistic in anyway, but they are a bunch. This comes to 21 special abilities over 20 levels. (Counting Ki Strike multiple times, since they are different effects.)

Checkpoint The first level you come to without an additional unique special is level 6. So, take Paladin at level 6 instead, for +3, then look towards prestige classes. This gets us up to 10 specials in 6 levels. Not bad. (You could keep up Paladin up to level 8, getting 2 specials at level 7 and 8, each, which is respectable.)

Fist of the Forest gets your monk bonus stats to count as specials, all in 1 level (so take one level, and get +4 specials). A second level gets +2 specials (unless you've already got improved uncanny dodge).

Checkpoint At Monk 5/Paladin 1/FotF 2, you've got 16 specials in 8 levels.

Dragonfire Adept also has 3 at first level (admittedly, one of those is pseudo-spellcasting, but it's listed under special, and is basically an SLA).

Checkpoint Monk 5/Paladin 1/FotF 2 /DFA 1, you've got 19 specials in 9 levels. We're catching up to that level 20 monk already!

Honestly, DFA does so little for actually playing the build, but crucially, it allows you to get the first level of Green Star Adept, which has 4 specials. (One of them is admittedly a caster level thingamabobber, but screw it, it's under special.)

Checkpoint Monk 5/Paladin 1/FotF 2 /DFA 1 / GSA 1 gives you 23 specials in 10 levels.

And hey...um...Stretching it a little, but Memory Smith gets 3 to 4 specials at level 1 as well, and by this point, you'd have the prereqs. Basically a dwarven bard that has extra spells (but those spells are listed under special, though under 1 ability's name). I'll say they only have 3 but eh.

Checkpoint Monk 5/Paladin 1/FotF 2 /DFA 1 / GSA 1 / MS 1 gives you 26 specials in 11 levels.

BUT! There is still more we could do. Because, see, Monk at level 5 gets 1 special, while a Paladin 2 gets 2 specials.

Final Checkpoint Monk 4/Paladin 2/FotF 2 /DFA 1 / GSA 1 / MS 1 gives you 27 specials in 11 levels.


And....that's basically as far as I care to take it.

[Gruftzwerg]

If you count maneuvers as "special" the martial classes out of ToB are very good at this.

Otherwise warlocks with their at-will invocations should count compared to spellcasters who can't spam their abilities.

[Nifft]

My favorite 'broken' E6 combo is probably the Mystic Wildshape Ranger 6 with the feat that gives you access to Wizard spells.

All the skill points, modest special.

Gets 2 weapon attacks instead of 1, rather special.

Can turn into an animal 2/day, pretty special.

Take Natural Spell to cast in animal form, very special.

Cast level 3 spells, elite special.

Cast Wizard spells, ultra special.

[GrayDeath]

If you count maneuvers as "special" the martial classes out of ToB are very good at this.

Otherwise warlocks with their at-will invocations should count compared to spellcasters who can't spam their abilities.




My favorite 'broken' E6 combo is probably the Mystic Wildshape Ranger 6 with the feat that gives you access to Wizard spells.

All the skill points, modest special.

Gets 2 weapon attacks instead of 1, rather special.

Can turn into an animal 2/day, pretty special.

Take Natural Spell to cast in animal form, very special.

Cast level 3 spells, elite special.

Cast Wizard spells, ultra special.

Nope Maneuvrs and Spells do not ****. See my exampes, but in general I am looking or the most "Can Do X" and "Has Z". Simply buiding a Wizard or similar would otherwise be the obvious and easy solution. )

And again, it is a combo of classes and race I am looking for, ideally expressing said "Uberspecialness" already at Level 10ish.

[SangoProduction]

Nope Maneuvrs and Spells do not ****. See my exampes, but in general I am looking or the most "Can Do X" and "Has Z". Simply buiding a Wizard or similar would otherwise be the obvious and easy solution. )

And again, it is a combo of classes and race I am looking for, ideally expressing said "Uberspecialness" already at Level 10ish.

Does my build fit the bill?

[Zaq]

So if I’m understanding you right, the goal is basically a build that has the most unique actions it can take (“unique action” defined as an ability that can be activated and that not everyone can do) OTHER than spells/maneuvers/psionic powers, with a focus on quantity over quality? Or is that not quite it?

[Zaq]

Also broken in the sense that the game rules don't allow it, as you've got 2 variants there :p

There's no rule against having multiple variants as long as they don't alter/trade the same feature. Maybe your group has some kind of houserule against that, but there's no actual rule against it.

[ericgrau]

I've done something similar a few times via magic items a couple times. Grab bag of 97 magic items meant that no matter the situation, I had an ability for it.

If you do it via class features you probably want something similarly versatile and swap-able, but not quite casting. There's ToB I guess, but that's still kinda like casting. Depends where your cutoff is on "casting". You could also do both build and items.

[Zaq]

The basic gamerules do, lol.. if you could do that, you could take a level of every class, every level up. You pick 1 class to take when you level up.

What stops you from taking a level of say barbarian and a level of cleric at level 1?

Wild Shape Ranger isn't a different class from Mystic Ranger. It's one class: Ranger. You're taking two alternate class features at once, but you're still just taking a level of Ranger. It's just a level of Ranger with several differences from what's printed in the PHB, as is allowed by the existence of the ACFs.

You can't take multiple ACFs that conflict with each other, because you can't trade what you don't have. But Mystic Ranger and Wild Shape Ranger don't conflict.

[Nifft]

My dude, they arent ACFs, they are variants, completely different classes from the original.

Mystic Ranger is an ACF which creates a variant Ranger.

Wildshape Ranger is an ACF which creates a variant Ranger.

They both count as Ranger levels, because they are all Rangers.

This prevents you from taking 4 levels like Ranger 1 / Mystic Ranger 1 / Wildshape Ranger 1 / Mystic Wildshape Ranger 1.

It does not prevent you from taking Mystic Ranger ACF + Wildshape Ranger ACF, and if the feature substitution were available, it would also not prevent you from taking Trapfinding Ranger ACF in addition. (I like Track more than Trapfinding, but that's just my personal role preference.)

[SangoProduction]

Mystic Ranger is an ACF which creates a variant Ranger.

Wildshape Ranger is an ACF which creates a variant Ranger.

They both count as Ranger levels, because they are all Rangers.

This prevents you from taking 4 levels like Ranger 1 / Mystic Ranger 1 / Wildshape Ranger 1 / Mystic Wildshape Ranger 1.

It does not prevent you from taking Mystic Ranger ACF + Wildshape Ranger ACF, and if the feature substitution were available, it would also not prevent you from taking Trapfinding Ranger ACF in addition. (I like Track more than Trapfinding, but that's just my personal role preference.)

That's an...interesting way of interpreting that. Thanks for spelling that out better. I doubt he would agree with your interpretation, but at least we agree on what we don't agree on.

But, if it truly created different classes, then there's actually nothing preventing you from doing what you said, with all the rangers, as they aren't the same class.

[Nifft]

That's an...interesting way of interpreting that. Thanks for spelling that out better. I doubt he would agree with your interpretation, but at least we agree on what we don't agree on.

But, if it truly created different classes, then there's actually nothing preventing you from doing what you said, with all the rangers, as they aren't the same class.

Transmuters and Illusionists are both Wizards.

You can't take levels of Transmuter and Illusionist, because both are variant Wizards.

Furthermore, you can't take levels of Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer and regular Conjurer (to get 2x level 1 benefits for example) because both are variant Wizards.

In the exact same way, and for the same reasons, you can't take levels of Mystic Ranger and Wildshape Ranger, because both are variant Rangers.


You're used to thinking about Wizards as being seven+ different classes which are all the same class. This extends to everyone now that ACFs are available to everyone.

This is a very simple argument which is 100% in line with the rules as written and AFAICT also the rules as intended.

[SangoProduction]

Transmuters and Illusionists are both Wizards.

You can't take levels of Transmuter and Illusionist, because both are variant Wizards.

Furthermore, you can't take levels of Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer and regular Conjurer (to get 2x level 1 benefits for example) because both are variant Wizards.

In the exact same way, and for the same reasons, you can't take levels of Mystic Ranger and Wildshape Ranger, because both are variant Rangers.


You're used to thinking about Wizards as being seven+ different classes which are all the same class. This extends to everyone now that ACFs are available to everyone.

This is a very simple argument which is 100% in line with the rules as written and AFAICT also the rules as intended.

That's because the wizard variants affect the same thing. You can't have multiple ACFs, and variants (collections of ACFs) that change the same thing.

The line about having different classes is a logical conclusion of your proposition that variants create entirely different classes. And...you know what? If a player wants to be a Level 5 Conjurer / Level 5 Transmuter...it's probably less powerful than a Level 10 Wizard, if we're being honest here.

EDIT: Now, Wolf Barbarian 1/ Bear Barbarian 1/ Totem Barbarian 1 or the like...that might actually be a power increase for barbarians....honestly, I'm also not opposed to that either.

For prestige classes, probably going to have to restrict that, if we're going with your ACF ruling. But thankfully I don't think any have any.

[Nifft]

That's because the wizard variants affect the same thing. You can't have multiple ACFs or ACs (which are really collections of ACFs) that change the same thing. That's correct. You can't be an Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer and a Rapid Summoning Conjurer.

But you can be an Abrupt Jaunt Enhanced Summoning Conjurer, because that's just a Conjurer with two additional ACFs, and the two extra ACFs don't conflict with each other.

This is exactly like how you can be a Mystic Wildshape Ranger -- it's just a Ranger with two ACFs that don't conflict.


The line about having different classes is a logical conclusion of your proposition that alternative classes create entirely different classes. And...you know what? If a player wants to be a Level 5 Conjurer / Level 5 Transmuter...it's probably less powerful than a Level 10 Wizard, if we're being honest here. It's true that a Wiz 5 / Wiz 5 would be worse than a Wiz 10, but it's also true that the Wiz5/Wiz5 would be illegal.

Since it's illegal, nobody particularly talks about it.


EDIT: Now, Wolf Barbarian 1/ Bear Barbarian 1/ Totem Barbarian 1 or the like...that might actually be a power increase for barbarians....honestly, I'm also not opposed to that either. The illegality of that type of thing has probably prevented analysis of how good it would be.

Start a thread about it, I'll chip in any insight that occurs.

[GrayDeath]

Does my build fit the bill?

It does, thank you.

I am still open for other versions though, as sadly a wee bit "good" the specials should be...


So if I’m understanding you right, the goal is basically a build that has the most unique actions it can take (“unique action” defined as an ability that can be activated and that not everyone can do) OTHER than spells/maneuvers/psionic powers, with a focus on quantity over quality? Or is that not quite it?

Indeed.
Although truly bad specials are to be avoided, quantity goes over quality here.
It is also not limited to actions, Dr, elemental.resistances and such are welcome as well.

[SangoProduction]

Anyway, this has gotten off topic. At least we're bumping the thread though.

[Nifft]

Anyway, this has gotten off topic. At least we're bumping the thread though. I'll take that as a grudging admission of understanding.


Indeed.
Although truly bad specials are to be avoided, quantity goes over quality here.
It is also not limited to actions, Dr, elemental.resistances and such are welcome as well.

Monk 2 is really dense, as noted.

Warlock 4 is also fairly dense -- several Invocations, plus Eldritch Blast, plus Deceive Item.

Dragonfire Adept 6 has a lot of perks, with really fun Invocations like Humanoid Form (alter self at-will), two Breath Effects, two other Invocations, scales and +4 to rolls when interacting with dragons. You also get the (Dragonblood) subtype so you've got access to feats like Entangling Exhalation (right at level 1), and feats which effectively grant class features like Draconic Aura (at level 3+).

Swordsage gets a nice progression of non-Maneuver perks, including Quick to Act and Discipline Focus (which can grant the effect of multiple bonus feats). Their Maneuvers are obviously their major feature, but even ignoring them you get a bunch of goodies, including Wis to AC in light armor.

[Nifft]

You are mixing a lot of things up here and honestly most of it is not in line with the rules.. I highly recommend you check out what the meaning is of "variant" and "alternative class feature" and when each of them can be used and when not. UA, page 47 for the variants and every other source that has variants and PH2, page 31 for alternative class features and every other source that has them. They are usually explained at the start of the chapters that include either. UA, page 48 also has an excerpt at the bottom for variants and multiclassing them.

You have located some rules correctly, but you haven't understood them sufficiently.

If you think there's a mistake in what I've written, please find the citation which would show my argument to be wrong.

The meaning of "variant" is found in UA, p.47:
https://i.imgur.com/pydJEdm.png

ACFs are variants.


The equivalence between feature-variants and specialist Wizards is also found in UA, p.48:
https://i.imgur.com/oBo9GEG.png


After that, there's a note that DMs might want to allow multi-classing between extreme variants, but there's no rule which says that such a thing must be done -- just as there's no rule saying that a DM must allow variants, or that a DM must allow non-variant classes.

As a DM, I'm encouraged to make the character creation rules suit the sort of game that my group will have fun playing. If there's a lot of focus on different Barbarian tribes, then having several blatant and rules-distinct variations on the Barbarian class is going to be useful to me. If Barbarians are rare enough that we're not going to care much about the mechanical differences between two distinct tribes, then I'm allowed to shut down all Barbarian variation.


So, you're looking in the right places, now you just need to chew them over a bit until you've understood what's written in those places a bit better.

Also, you need to start posting on the thread's topic a bit more.



A Wild On-Topic Post Appears!

- Bard is pretty spiffy for the first 4 levels or so. Three whole songs at level 1! Woo! Very exciting. The way to get it to perform well is somewhat dull -- you focus on how to Inspire Courage better, then do that all day -- but that won't consume all your resources, so you've got a significant degree of tactical freedom while being fairly high-optimization.

- Druid is very class-feature rich across the early levels, but after a while it's all just boring improvements to Wild Shape and spellcasting (which in truth aren't boring at all).

- Totemist 2 gets a lot of good stuff in those 2 levels. After that it also gets stuff but it's somewhat more focused.

- Scout gets a lot of class features including bonus damage and a bonus to AC, plus Evasion, fast movement, bonus feats, camouflage, trapfinding... actually Scout is a solid class which looks like a Monk-esque n00b-trap, but in my experience it performs pretty well.