Question about Polymorph.

[Captn_Flounder]

Question about this little segment:

"The new form can be any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or the target's level, if it doesn't have a challenge rating)"

The way I understand it, is if there is no CR (in the case of a PC) they compare their level to the Hit Dice of the new creature, correct? It would be illogical to assume the text means compare the target's level to the CR of the new beast, right?

In short, a T-Rex has CR of 8 and 13 HD. What level would a PC have to be to become a T-Rex?

[SharkForce]

Question about this little segment:

"The new form can be any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or the target's level, if it doesn't have a challenge rating)"

The way I understand it, is if there is no CR (in the case of a PC) they compare their level to the Hit Dice of the new creature, correct? It would be illogical to assume the text means compare the target's level to the CR of the new beast, right?

In short, a T-Rex has CR of 8 and 13 HD. What level would a PC have to be to become a T-Rex?

8.

the spell never once mentions hit dice. only CR, and level.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

The intent seems to be so I can't turn a guard into an ancient red dragon but I can turn them into a chicken.

There are bound to be fuzzy things in between. Do you have a more concrete situation or are you trying to get ahead of the curve before it comes up?

Edit, oh wait, t-rex. I like your hit die theory although I suspect by level 13 my Bard will be way more than a t-rex can handle. Lets go check a cr calculator for a party of 1

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Ok. Using THIS, http://dhmstark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/

I need to be level 17 before a one on one with a CR8 is a medium encounter. So I guess a level 17 is an even swap to CR8?

[SharkForce]

Ok. Using THIS, http://dhmstark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/

I need to be level 17 before a one on one with a CR8 is a medium encounter. So I guess a level 17 is an even swap to CR8?

medium encounter is not even. a medium encounter should be risk free unless you make some bad decisions. it is especially not even if we're talking about a fully loaded bard with a full adventuring day of resources to burn.

if you're looking to rebalance the spell, i recommend something more simple. the CR you can transform into becomes spell level. you want to become a CR 8 beast, you need to use a level 8 spell slot. it still has utility (flight, lifting/moving heavy stuff, water breathing, fast speeds, stealth, etc). it still has debuff power. it is still worth taking. but it is no longer an obvious choice to improve the combat power of a character substantially. you might still turn an ally into a CR 4 beast at level 7 if the situation is dire (say, they're at 10 hit points and you really need them to be up and running on your turn, so you give them a 50 HP buffer or whatever), but you're no longer trading in a level 7 fighter for a giant ape that is probably superior in a variety of ways in addition to having all the other value the spell was previously offering.

[Flashy]

HIt dice mean basically nothing for monsters in 5e. More powerful monsters generally have more, but that’s just because more powerful monsters tend to have more HP.

There isn’t a single ability, power, or effect anywhere in the system that cares how many hit dice something has.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Is a hard encounter a 50/50 thing? Or difficult or deadly?

[Captn_Flounder]

Maybe it isn't that powerful when you get it, and maybe I was just thinking it's imbalanced because the Scroll of Polymorph was the first item stronger than a potion of healing my party has gotten as a level 2 party.

Thanks for the guidance, Giants.

[holywhippet]

It is a fairly powerful spell since while the spell is in effect the target is using HP from the spell, not their own HP. So changing to a T-Rex means you get a lot of HP and some very damaging attacks which lets you run around the battlefield munching on enemies. Once concentration is broken or your run out of HP you revert back and are more or less still as fresh and ready to go as you were before the spell was cast.

The catch is, do you know about T-Rex's in order to polymorph into one? Most DM's won't just allow you to know about them by default.

[Talamare]

HIt dice mean basically nothing for monsters in 5e. More powerful monsters generally have more, but that’s just because more powerful monsters tend to have more HP.

There isn’t a single ability, power, or effect anywhere in the system that cares how many hit dice something has.

Level 6 Shepherd Druid

[SharkForce]

Is a hard encounter a 50/50 thing? Or difficult or deadly?

hard to say. a deadly encounter is intended to be sufficiently difficult that if you don't do well, you could have one character go down. in a 1v1 scenario, that is arguably a 50/50, but i don't think the CR system was in any way designed for one character (so it probably breaks down badly at that point), and it definitely wasn't designed to create 50/50 fights.

[Laserlight]

Question about this little segment:

"The new form can be any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or the target's level, if it doesn't have a challenge rating)"

The way I understand it, is if there is no CR (in the case of a PC) they compare their level to the Hit Dice of the new creature, correct? It would be illogical to assume the text means compare the target's level to the CR of the new beast, right?

In short, a T-Rex has CR of 8 and 13 HD. What level would a PC have to be to become a T-Rex?


If the target is a PC, you can transform her into a Beast whose CR is equal to her level. So an L8 PC can become a CR8 T Rex. Hit Dice are irrelevant.

[Talamare]

If you feel the spell is too strong (and honestly it probably is)

Make it CR equal to half level

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545622-Fixing-Polymorph-using-XtGE-s-Mass-Polymorph

[MarkVIIIMarc]

If the target is a PC, you can transform her into a Beast whose CR is equal to her level. So an L8 PC can become a CR8 T Rex. Hit Dice are irrelevant.

I am away from my book now. Is this the official ruling?

[SharkForce]

yes, it is.

[Captn_Flounder]

If you feel the spell is too strong (and honestly it probably is)

Make it CR equal to half level

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545622-Fixing-Polymorph-using-XtGE-s-Mass-Polymorph

Nah, becoming a Giant Constrictor Snake at level 2 is actually very bad ass. Give the Players a real taste of power. Can see it just wrecking an entire dungeon, literally.

[Laserlight]

Nah, becoming a Giant Constrictor Snake at level 2 is actually very bad ass. Give the Players a real taste of power. Can see it just wrecking an entire dungeon, literally.

Amusingly, the last time one of the PCs in my campaign turned into a giant constrictor, she literally wrecked the place. The fight was in a village of rickety tree houses and stilt huts. She slithered up a tree, flung her 500+ pounds onto a hut and knocked it over. Rinse and repeat until she'd cut every route that led from one side of the river to the other.

As for it being too powerful, generally the target gets a lot of HP but is a lot easier to hit. And it occupies the caster's Concentration. And it uses a slot that could otherwise have been used for Greater Invisibility or Summon Greater Demon or something of that sort. It's powerful, sure, but it's an L4 spell, it's supposed to be powerful.

[holywhippet]

As for it being too powerful, generally the target gets a lot of HP but is a lot easier to hit. And it occupies the caster's Concentration. And it uses a slot that could otherwise have been used for Greater Invisibility or Summon Greater Demon or something of that sort. It's powerful, sure, but it's an L4 spell, it's supposed to be powerful.

My bard is getting close to level 4 and there is not much other than polymorph that I'm interested in as a level 4 spell. Maintaining concentration isn't a huge problem since you can still cast non-concentration spells or make regular attacks.

[Captn_Flounder]

Just switched from 3.5 so still getting used to how simple it is doing cool things in 5e.

One more question, if the caster polymorph themselves, they would still have to roll concentration everytime they got struck, correct?

Can't get the image of a 50 foot snake with just his head in the dungeon fighting while the Cleric stands outside and pets his tail with heals.

[holywhippet]

Yes, anytime you take damage while concentrating on a spell you have to make a constitution save of DC 10 or half whatever damage you take (whichever is higher).

[Talamare]

Nah, becoming a Giant Constrictor Snake at level 2 is actually very bad ass. Give the Players a real taste of power. Can see it just wrecking an entire dungeon, literally.

Not sure how that is relevant...
You get Polymorph at level 7, half level would still be 3... GCS are CR2, so would still be legal.



As for it being too powerful, generally the target gets a lot of HP but is a lot easier to hit. And it occupies the caster's Concentration. And it uses a slot that could otherwise have been used for Greater Invisibility or Summon Greater Demon or something of that sort. It's powerful, sure, but it's an L4 spell, it's supposed to be powerful.

You get it at level 7 and literally transform people into Giant Apes when you get the spell, granting them 160 HP...

Considering Proficiency at this level is only +3, you're also seeing a massive offensive buffs.
On average going from 2x +7 2d6+4 to 2x +9 on 3d10+6 damage

This is basically the same level that has Ice Storm that deals 2d8+4d6 damage, total...

The best argument one could make is that you get most of the Summons at this level, but they are CR 2 at best
and even the Summon Greater Demon is only CR 5, and he has the penalty of potentially actively attempting to murder your party...

... So yea...

The "Supposed" to be broken argument doesn't fly.

Even if you're limited to CR3 at Lv7 or Cr4 at Lv8, you still end up casting an insanely powerful spell.
So literally, by reducing the spell's power in HALF, you still end up with an insanely powerful spell.

At CR3, we are still able to call transform people into Giant Scorpions that have 3 attacks, 2x 1d8+2 and 1d10+2 + 4d10 poison

Not to mention doing this creates a vast amount of progress as you level up.
With every 2 levels unlocking a new array of options to choose from.

The highest CR beast is only CR9
That means that Polymorph will naturally run out at Lv9 normally. However, if you do Half CR; You get new options until level 18!

[JackPhoenix]

I am away from my book now. Is this the official ruling?

No. It is not ruling, it straight up says so in the spell's description.

[Malifice]

Ok. Using THIS, http://dhmstark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/

I need to be level 17 before a one on one with a CR8 is a medium encounter. So I guess a level 17 is an even swap to CR8?

You're expected to roll a medium encounter with minimal resource expenditure.

A few slots perhaps.

[SharkForce]

Not sure how that is relevant...
You get Polymorph at level 7, half level would still be 3... GCS are CR2, so would still be legal.




You get it at level 7 and literally transform people into Giant Apes when you get the spell, granting them 160 HP...

Considering Proficiency at this level is only +3, you're also seeing a massive offensive buffs.
On average going from 2x +7 2d6+4 to 2x +9 on 3d10+6 damage

This is basically the same level that has Ice Storm that deals 2d8+4d6 damage, total...

The best argument one could make is that you get most of the Summons at this level, but they are CR 2 at best
and even the Summon Greater Demon is only CR 5, and he has the penalty of potentially actively attempting to murder your party...

... So yea...

The "Supposed" to be broken argument doesn't fly.

Even if you're limited to CR3 at Lv7 or Cr4 at Lv8, you still end up casting an insanely powerful spell.
So literally, by reducing the spell's power in HALF, you still end up with an insanely powerful spell.

At CR3, we are still able to call transform people into Giant Scorpions that have 3 attacks, 2x 1d8+2 + 1d10+2 + 4d10 poison

Not to mention doing this creates a vast amount of progress as you level up.
With every 2 levels unlocking a new array of options to choose from.

The highest CR beast is only CR9
That means that Polymorph will naturally run out at Lv9 normally. However, if you do Half CR; You get new options until level 18!

and again, this ignores all the other value the spell offers; the ability to debuff an enemy by turning a powerful monster into a relatively harmless animal, the ability to turn a party member into a giant owl and have them fly people across hazardous areas one at a time, or turn into a burrowing creature and dig out a cave for the party to rest in safely, or turn into something strong to lift a heavy obstacle, etc.

personally i prefer the allowed CR to be equal to the spell level, but half level being the new max CR isn't bad. but the main point i'm trying to make: in its current form, not only is polymorph a ridiculous combat buff, it is also a strong debuff and a strong utility spell. that is an unreasonable amount of power to pack into one spell and then act like it's perfectly balanced.

[holywhippet]

and again, this ignores all the other value the spell offers; the ability to debuff an enemy by turning a powerful monster into a relatively harmless animal, the ability to turn a party member into a giant owl and have them fly people across hazardous areas one at a time, or turn into a burrowing creature and dig out a cave for the party to rest in safely, or turn into something strong to lift a heavy obstacle, etc.

personally i prefer the allowed CR to be equal to the spell level, but half level being the new max CR isn't bad. but the main point i'm trying to make: in its current form, not only is polymorph a ridiculous combat buff, it is also a strong debuff and a strong utility spell. that is an unreasonable amount of power to pack into one spell and then act like it's perfectly balanced.

It isn't all that great as a debuff IMO. About all it can do is keep an enemy out of the fight for a short time which is useful when facing several opponents at once. Eventually though either you lose concentration, the spell runs out or the target takes enough damage to run out of HP from the spell and change back (or it could be dispelled). A lot of those other uses can be covered by conjure animals which takes a lower spell slot.

[Vaz]

Con Save is pretty rough, but its save or lose. If you can fly or have access to a nearby very high tower or cliff face, it's also pretty much save or die too, and you can turn it into something like or Goldfish or Doormouse and just drop it, often instantly killing it from the drop.

Even better if like most DM's I know, they remove the max damage cap on falling damage.

[SharkForce]

It isn't all that great as a debuff IMO. About all it can do is keep an enemy out of the fight for a short time which is useful when facing several opponents at once. Eventually though either you lose concentration, the spell runs out or the target takes enough damage to run out of HP from the spell and change back (or it could be dispelled). A lot of those other uses can be covered by conjure animals which takes a lower spell slot.

one failed save can take a CR 15 creature down to CR 1 (or a bit higher if you're worried the low HP will come back to bite you in the butt) while you deal with everything else. it lasts one hour, so duration running out isn't a major factor. concentration is a factor on the great majority of debuff spells. meanwhile, it doesn't offer additional saving throws, which makes it a very nice CC for that purpose.

conjure animals is not on as many spell lists as polymorph. it also has the problem of DM control over what animals you get, although that is certainly only a concern on a per-game basis. additionally, it isn't going to make a party member stealthy no matter how hard you try, nor is it going to make them fit through a mouse hole no matter how hard you try.

there's plenty of debuff power, and plenty of utility. the spell doesn't need to be ludicrously overpowered as a buffing spell in the levels that you get it to be viable. yes, there are other buffing spells. they are generally less powerful, and far shorter in duration; superior invisibility is pretty awesome for example, but it isn't going to turn one character into a medium difficulty encounter for the entire party. polymorph does that, and it does it for 60 times as long, while also having significant other uses. there is a huge disparity in power here, and there really shouldn't be. the only reason polymorph ever falls off of "must have" lists is that there are no published beasts above a certain CR. if we get a new monster book and suddenly there are CR 9-20 beasts or something like that, it'll be a must-have clear through to the highest levels of play, because turning one character into a medium encounter for the entire party is always going to be a massive upgrade. a CR 7 monster is well over a deadly encounter for 2 level 7 PCs; you have literally made a character so much more powerful that the system says they should be able to 2v1 their old selves and have a decent chance of KOing or even killing one of themselves. and that's assuming the original target was at full resources before they polymorphed... if they were getting towards the end of the day, it's an even more ridiculous buff because they're getting an entirely new set of resources.

polymorph is way beyond any other buffing spell for as long there are beasts you can turn into.

[The_Jette]

Here's a question about Polymorph: if you polymorphed an enemy into a chicken, then threw that chicken into a bag of holding, and closed it, when the chicken runs out of oxygen and dies, will it revert to the original enemy still alive and kicking, who can then attempt to cut its way out; or, would it revert to the original enemy, who is still dead from asphyxiation?

[holywhippet]

one failed save can take a CR 15 creature down to CR 1 (or a bit higher if you're worried the low HP will come back to bite you in the butt) while you deal with everything else. it lasts one hour, so duration running out isn't a major factor. concentration is a factor on the great majority of debuff spells. meanwhile, it doesn't offer additional saving throws, which makes it a very nice CC for that purpose.

Duration is a factor since the polymorphed target keeps all their mental stats intact. If they know what the spell has done to them or knows (or is told) about how the spell works they can just attack themselves until they do enough damage to revert back.


Here's a question about Polymorph: if you polymorphed an enemy into a chicken, then threw that chicken into a bag of holding, and closed it, when the chicken runs out of oxygen and dies, will it revert to the original enemy still alive and kicking, who can then attempt to cut its way out; or, would it revert to the original enemy, who is still dead from asphyxiation?

Neither exactly. When you run out of air and can't hold your breath any longer you drop to 0 HP and are dying. The first part will undo the polymorph spell immediately so the target will change back to their original form. The second part though specifies you are now dying so they don't get to start trying to cut their way free. They won't be immediately dead though, they have to start making death saving throws.

[Tanarii]

Duration is a factor since the polymorphed target keeps all their mental stats intact. If they know what the spell has done to them or knows (or is told) about how the spell works they can just attack themselves until they do enough damage to revert back.Not to mention their allies can* do the same. If you choose something too weak, they'll just one shot it.

I mean, that's still at least one action the enemy doing the one-shotting loses, two if the polymorphed creature also has it's turn skipped past due to initiative order.

*peanut gallery, please note that can is not the same as will. :smallbiggrin:

[Pharaon]

Duration is a factor since the polymorphed target keeps all their mental stats intact. If they know what the spell has done to them or knows (or is told) about how the spell works they can just attack themselves until they do enough damage to revert back.

PHB 266: The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality.

Unless this was errata'd, I think it would be easy to argue against a polymorphed frog doing self harm to revert into its original shape.

[PhoenixPhyre]

PHB 266: The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality.

Unless this was errata'd, I think it would be easy to argue against a polymorphed frog doing self harm to revert into its original shape.

That's a good note: polymorph is not wildshape. If you're playing that the transformed person keeps all good tactical knowledge and skills, you're doing it wrong. You're not hostile to your friends, but you're a beast, with all that entails. I'd expect to see beast tactics, not humanoid ones.

I've seen this one used most as a debuff. It's strongest against dumb muscle in small groups--smart folks may know to break it and big groups see only marginal losses. If there's two separated brutes--now you only have to face one at a time. Divide and conquer.

[Malifice]

Con Save is pretty rough, but its save or lose. If you can fly or have access to a nearby very high tower or cliff face, it's also pretty much save or die too, and you can turn it into something like or Goldfish or Doormouse and just drop it, often instantly killing it from the drop.

Even better if like most DM's I know, they remove the max damage cap on falling damage.

Planning on runnint as every 10' fallen is 1 dice damage.

10-40 [d6]
41-80 [d8]
61-120 [d10]
121-160 [d12]
161-200+ [d20]

[SharkForce]

Duration is a factor since the polymorphed target keeps all their mental stats intact. If they know what the spell has done to them or knows (or is told) about how the spell works they can just attack themselves until they do enough damage to revert back.

only if by "all their mental stats" you actually mean "none of their mental stats, which are all replaced by the animal's". they keep their personality, so for example a greedy human will turn into a greedy chicken, and an orc turned into a chicken will probably consider orcs to be friendly (by default, though that will likely change rapidly if the orcs all suddenly start trying to kill the chicken). but they're still a chicken, with the skills of a chicken (so no arcana), the abilities of a chicken (so no class-based knowledge of polymorph spells), and the intelligence of a chicken (so roughly enough to maybe figure out how to get out of a chicken pen once in a blue moon).


Not to mention their allies can* do the same. If you choose something too weak, they'll just one shot it.

I mean, that's still at least one action the enemy doing the one-shotting loses, two if the polymorphed creature also has it's turn skipped past due to initiative order.

*peanut gallery, please note that can is not the same as will. :smallbiggrin:

as you noted yourself, that isn't exactly plausible. if you're fighting a group of enemies that all know the polymorph spell intimately, maybe. most of the time "the boss turned into a chicken, kill it so he'll turn back" isn't particularly probable default behaviour. or, as i said, you can turn it into something a bit tougher but still vastly less threatening than a CR 15 creature, so it takes a while for them to kill it, if you suspect this is going to be a problem. even then, you've just cost a bunch of enemies their actions, and probably dealt some damage to the boss (overflow). and if the boss doesn't die in the initial salvo, you can expect him to run away, which just buys you even more time if they do manage to disrupt your concentration.

(in contrast, i *do* consider "that guy turned the boss into a chicken, attack that guy to break concentration" to be reasonably plausible if you're in a situation where you're fighting CR 15 enemies... though most enemies won't know the difference between a spell that needs concentration and a spell that doesn't, so they should have the same attitude even if you used something non-concentration, unless you're talking about something that has appropriate knowledge... i would consider the idea that spells often require concentration to be much more widely known than knowing the exact in-game text of a spell that the creature probably can't cast and has never studied).

[Tanarii]

For some rando low level wandering monsters, I completely agree.

IMO, not so much for enemies that either know magic somewhat, which would definitely include anything extra plananar a large large number of not-stupid very high CR monsters. As well as any groups of NPCs / monsters that are familiar with the particular PC's tactics, provided they left some survivors to spread the word. Although the latter is pretty unlikely for most Pcs. :smallamused:

As with any monster action in relation to PCs, it be hooves the DM to know what they might know and definitely can't know, both in general and in the specific. Or at least be prepared to make it up reasonably, on the fly. And what's reasonable is going to vary from DM to DM.

As with any spell, the DM needs to decide how common knowledge is of magic in general in the world and among various kinds of creatures and NPCs. (This especially comes up a lot for Illusions.)

[Dalebert]

Nah, becoming a Giant Constrictor Snake at level 2 is actually very bad ass. Give the Players a real taste of power. Can see it just wrecking an entire dungeon, literally.

That's a fairly unlikely scenario considering you need a lvl 7 caster in a party with a level 2 character to have access to the spell.


My bard is getting close to level 4 and there is not much other than polymorph that I'm interested in as a level 4 spell. Maintaining concentration isn't a huge problem since you can still cast non-concentration spells or make regular attacks.

The biggest threat to concentration is someone attacking the caster to force a check. When a giant ape is pounding you, it's often easier to do a little dmg to the caster and making him pop than try to dig through its triple digit hp.

This is why subtle spell is great with polymorph. "Hey, Richard. Use your shape-shifting powers!" Richard turns into a giant ape. The caster didn't do anything spell-castery that would incline people to attack them and break the spell. As far as they know, RIchard turned himself into an ape.

This spell seems great but I find I don't use it as much as I expected. Many of the PCs you'd want to transform are often more effective in their normal form with all their class features. I think of it as a way to buy time for a character who's about to drop to 0 and give them all those extra hp for a few rounds, but the cost is often making them less effective. You can't just calculate a giant apes average dmg. You have to compare it to how much dmg the character could have done before and only look at the difference. A lot of melee types will be competitive if they're built well. A non-melee is generally expected to be contributing in other ways, like a lore bard using cutting words. That goes away.

[SharkForce]

For some rando low level wandering monsters, I completely agree.

IMO, not so much for enemies that either know magic somewhat, which would definitely include anything extra plananar a large large number of not-stupid very high CR monsters. As well as any groups of NPCs / monsters that are familiar with the particular PC's tactics, provided they left some survivors to spread the word. Although the latter is pretty unlikely for most Pcs. :smallamused:

As with any monster action in relation to PCs, it be hooves the DM to know what they might know and definitely can't know, both in general and in the specific. Or at least be prepared to make it up reasonably, on the fly. And what's reasonable is going to vary from DM to DM.

As with any spell, the DM needs to decide how common knowledge is of magic in general in the world and among various kinds of creatures and NPCs. (This especially comes up a lot for Illusions.)

let's try this another way.

in a group of 4 players and a DM, each of whom has full easy access to the entirety of the PHB with clearly defined game text rather than a vague in-game explanation, in a game using only the core books (so basically, there are not dozens of other spells from different sources, let alone the probable thousands or tens of thousands of other spells that should exist in the world if the setting was real), how many of them are going to know the fine details of any random spell you choose?

and we're talking educated people who have a specific interest in the material and every reason to expect it to come up with super easy access to the material in question, here. and on top of that, they probably have direct regular experience with multiple spellcasters, which won't be typical for most monsters.

in my experience, unless you're in an unusually heavy optimization group... maybe 2 of them will know. maybe. heck, even in my fairly heavy optimization group, there are times when i go to use a spell straight out of the PHB (granted, the second edition PHB, but the group has been playing 2nd edition - or at least their version of it - since second edition came out) and they're *still* surprised to hear about what the spell can do. they might know the spells you regularly use fairly well, but even then there can be surprises (for example, in that second edition group where everyone has played mages at some point over the years, mostly for nuking spells, they were all quite surprised to hear that the second edition lightning bolt spell explicitly can smash through wood or stone walls of certain thickness).

so honestly, i'm not really buying it for most enemies. now if they're 10,000 years old and have an int of 19, sure, there's a good chance they'll know. but even most extraplanar creatures don't have particularly high int, and there's no particular reason to presume they deal with polymorph on anything like a regular basis (in fact, most extraplanar shapechanging doesn't use the same rules at all, so if anything i'd expect most of them to have experience that directly opposes the typical solution for polymorph).

but most enemies, even powerful ones, aren't going to know the intricate details of specific spells unless they've got at least a decent arcana check (or they can cast that spell themselves). as i said, general concepts of magic like "spells often require concentration which can be broken", sure. but they're only going to enjoy the benefits of being a magical scholar if they're a magical scholar, just like i wouldn't give a PC the benefits of being a magical scholar just for having been around a while. you want to know stuff about magic? well, there's a skill proficiency you can take, and an attribute you can boost. if you don't want to take either of those things, whether you're a PC or a monster you don't get the benefit of those things unless you have those things.

[History_buff]

This is why I prefer polymorphing to Giant Ape instead of T-Rex. A giant ape has an intelligence score of 7 which is smart enough to know what’s going on most of the time. A T-Rex might eat someone that doesn’t need to be eaten.

[Tanarii]

This is why I prefer polymorphing to Giant Ape instead of T-Rex. A giant ape has an intelligence score of 7 which is smart enough to know what’s going on most of the time. A T-Rex might eat someone that doesn’t need to be eaten.But probably not their friends. Unless their personality wouldn't get in the way of that to begin with. In which case there were probably already problems to begin with. :smallamused:

[History_buff]

But probably not their friends. Unless their personality wouldn't get in the way of that to begin with. In which case there were probably already problems to begin with. :smallamused:

True that. But I was talking enemies you may not want to kill or npcs. Heheh

[Tanarii]

True that. But I was talking enemies you may not want to kill or npcs. Heheh
Inside the head of Bob the Fighter, right before the "unfortunate incident": "I never did like Lidda very much, that sneaky little .... RRRRRRAAAAAAAAWRRRRR!!!!"