Gloom stalker question.

[Spacehamster]

So the “can’t be seen in darkness by dark vision creatures” feature, is that until you engage them in combat or is it permanent which ofc would make it bonkers?

[Unoriginal]

So the “can’t be seen in darkness by dark vision creatures” feature, is that until you engage them in combat or is it permanent which ofc would make it bonkers?

"While in darkness, you are invisible to any creature that relies on darkvision to see you in that darkness."

AKA you are constantly invisible.

And no, it's far from bonkers, it's just good. Being invisible doesn't mean you're hiding (which requires a Stealth roll in normal conditions), and if you attack you give away your location although your opponents do get a disadvantage on attack rolls against you while you get an advantage against them.

Also, fighting in darkness is pretty situational. Even people with dark vision don't usually spend their time in complete darkness.

[Crgaston]

AFAICT not limited by combat. But mechanically it just means you have advantage and they have disadvantage unless you have a way of taking the Hide action every round.

Which is bonkers.
:)

[Spacehamster]

Cool thanks, maybe not broken as stated but against beasts and dumber monsters it’s pretty darn strong in an all dark vision party. :) with skulker feat it gets quite powerful, attack —-> bonus action hide and rinse and repeat.

[Millstone85]

Cool thanks, maybe not broken as stated but against beasts and dumber monsters it’s pretty darn strong in an all dark vision party. :) with skulker feat it gets quite powerful, attack —-> bonus action hide and rinse and repeat.But the skulker feat lets you try to hide from a creature to which you are lightly obscured, which is what you would normally be in darkness against darkvision. The gloom stalker's invisibility adds nothing to this.

And where is that bonus action from again?

[Theodoxus]

Probably rogue... because if you can multiclass, why wouldn't you?

[Strangways]

So the “can’t be seen in darkness by dark vision creatures” feature, is that until you engage them in combat or is it permanent which ofc would make it bonkers?

On the plain wording of the ability, it’s a permanent feature, not something that can be switched on and off. It’s a powerful feature, but somewhat situational. It doesn’t do you any good in full light or even dim light. And it’s hard to make it work if anyone else in your party doesn’t have Darkvision. And it’s no help at all against creatures with Blindsight or Tremorsense and only very limited against any opponent capable of generating a light source.

It also comes with the downside that “invisible to Darkvision” means everyone’s Darkvision, not just your enemies. If you are down in Darkness, your allies can’t see you either, which makes healing you problematic.

I play a Gloomstalker and I’ve experienced both the upside and the downside of that ability. In one game, that ability literally saved us from a TPK, when everyone except me had been felled by the enemy caster, leaving just me and the enemy caster to run around in total Darkness, hiding behind pillars and firing at each other until I finally prevailed. In the other game, I was down about 80’ from the party in darkness and they couldn’t see me. They found me eventually but it wasn’t simple.

[Naanomi]

Probably rogue... because if you can multiclass, why wouldn't you?
Rangers get it at 14 already...

[Millstone85]

Rangers get it at 14 already...Ah, right, sorry.

[Theodoxus]

Yeah, 14 - when wizards are bending the universe, rangers can do something rogues have been doing since 2nd level... OP to the max.

[Unoriginal]

Wizards aren't bending the universe at lvl 14. Unless you argue all spells bend the universe, in which case they can do it at lvl 1.

[Naanomi]

Yeah, 14 - when wizards are bending the universe, rangers can do something rogues have been doing since 2nd level... OP to the max.
I’m not arguing it is OP, just that it doesn’t require multiclassing to accomplish

[greenstone]

…would make it bonkers?

It's not bonkers. It just gives the gloom stalker an ability which every creature with darkvision already has against humans in the dark.

It's all about evening the field.

There are things that go bump in the night. The gloom stalker's job is to make those things feel the fear.

[Arkhios]

Probably rogue... because if you can multiclass, why wouldn't you?

Actually, I'd go with Way of Shadows Monk. Perfect "Shadowdancer"!

PS. I know you only responded to how would you be able hide easily every round, I just feel that if a ranger would multiclass Monk seems like a no-brainer choice due to sharing the same prerequisites (Dex & Wis), and Way of Shadows fits like a glove for a Ranger who is at home within darkness.

[Theodoxus]

I’m not arguing it is OP, just that it doesn’t require multiclassing to accomplish

it does require playing in a game going to at least 14th level, which I have done all of...never. Going to 5, for Ranger 3/Rogue 2? Every game I've played has gone to 5, and it typically takes 4 or 5 sessions to get there....

In fact, if the idea is to pop in and out of hiding every round, waiting for it to come online at 14th level isn't really a signature move for your character... You can do it as a v human rogue taking stalker, at 2nd level, and really getting going by Ranger 3, and perfecting it at Ranger 4 adding in SS, really taking advantage of the advantage for shooting while hidden.

But sure, wait until 14th... and have the campaign end 5 levels earlier. :smallwink:

[Arkhios]

it does require playing in a game going to at least 14th level, which I have done all of...never.
---
But sure, wait until 14th... and have the campaign end 5 levels earlier. :smallwink:

Let's see... I've played in several games going up to levels from 15 all the way to 20...

So... It can happen. I'm sorry you haven't experienced it (yet), but that you haven't it doesn't mean no one else wouldn't ever.

[Easy_Lee]

Multiclassing into rogue was already optimal for ranger DPR, and Gloomstalker has extra reason to do so. Note that pass without trace is on the ranger spell list. The combination of cunning action, pass without trace, expertise stealth, and Gloomstalker makes the character theoretically unkillable in dark areas.

Of course, those night-stalking creatures that normally rely on darkvision totally had torches or Daylight ready. And good luck getting your party, especially the crazy guy with the axe, to stand back while you handle things. In tabletop games, there is such a thing as a build that works too well.

[Malifice]

"While in darkness, you are invisible to any creature that relies on darkvision to see you in that darkness."

AKA you are constantly invisible.


Or they turn the lights on.

[hellgrammite]

Reminder about Darkvision and sight regarding the Gloom Stalker in complete darkness.

-Creatures with Darkvision still have disadvantage on their perception checks (with regards to sight). So while being stealthy, you may leave footprints, but that will be difficult for a lot of creature to pick up on, especially in combat.

-Noise is the other major way to be detected while in the dark;assuming your not attacking, your walking or heavier armor will give away your position. You might alsobe carrying your allies armor, or have a big bag of coins that would negate advantage. A Dire Wolf also gains advantage to hear, so hiding against it would be difficult.

-Smell. Less common than Noise. Smell for me only really would matter in two situations:
1) You came into contact with something with a strong odor, making you gain disadvantage on stealth rolls (you just crawled out of a sewer drain.)
2) You try to stealth by a creature that has advantage to smell (a Dire Wolf for example.) Per the rules I would apply a +5 to the wolf's passive perception to notice you.

-Blindsight works slightly differently for different creatures. An ooze just can detect you within 60 feet (whether its sensing your lifeforce, mind...whatever.) There are some specific notes on blindsight for creatures like Grimlock. If you a Gloom Stalker with Boots of Elvenkind, the Grimlock might have a hard time finding you unless you get within 10 feet of it (smelling.)


At the end of the day, creatures that don't take a torch out or illuminate you in some way are going to have a very difficult time against you. They can light a torch to better see your footprints, but at that point your likely illuminated yourself. Boots of Elvenkind are probably the way to go, since you can slink past creature without being seen and now mostly unheard. There are exceptions, such as hounds or blindsight creatures that still give you issues, but those are much more uncommon.

[Malifice]

Reminder about Darkvision and sight regarding the Gloom Stalker in complete darkness.

-Creatures with Darkvision still have disadvantage on their perception checks (with regards to sight). So while being stealthy, you may leave footprints, but that will be difficult for a lot of creature to pick up on, especially in combat.

-Noise is the other major way to be detected while in the dark, assuming your not attacking, your walking or heavier armor will give away your position. You might be carrying your allies armor, or have a big bag of coins that would negate advantage. A Dire Wolf also gains advantage to hear, so hiding against it would be difficult.

-Smell. Less common than Noise. Smell for me only really would matter in two situations:
1) You came into contact with something with a strong odor, making you gain disadvantage on stealth rolls (you just crawled out of a sewer drain.)
2) You try to stealth by a creature that has advantage to smell (a Dire Wolf for example.) Per the rules I would apply a +5 to the wolf's passive perception to notice you.

-Blindsight works slightly differently for different creatures. An ooze just can detect you within 60 feet (whether its sensing your lifeforce, mind...whatever.) There are some specific notes on blindsight for creatures like Grimlock. If you a Gloom Stalker with Boots of Elvenkind, the Grimlock might have a hard time finding you unless you get within 10 feet of it (smelling.)


At the end of the day, creatures that don't take a torch out or illuminate you in some way are going to have a very difficult time against you. They can light a torch to better see your footprints, but at that point your likely illuminated yourself. Boots of Elvenkind are probably the way to go, since you can slink past creature without being seen and now mostly unheard. There are exceptions, such as hounds or blindsight creatures that still give you issues, but those are much more uncommon.

The above depends on if youve taken the hide action.

If you do [no footsteps, noise, movement], you're hidden.

If you dont take the hide action[or you do and fail] you're simply unseen [invisible].

[hellgrammite]

The above depends on if youve taken the hide action.

If you do [no footsteps, noise, movement], you're hidden.

If you dont take the hide action[or you do and fail] you're simply unseen [invisible].

That is during combat. I am also referencing out of combat if your sneaking around. RAW for creatures not in combat, or not actively keep watching likely use passive perception. Again it might come down to the hiding rules, but each circumstance might not fit with those rules.

Also I don't think saying a Grimlock might not be able to smell you past 10 feet is not exactly related to hiding, though it would come into play for hiding.

[Malifice]

That is during combat. I am also referencing out of combat if your sneaking around.

Same thing. Use Stealth. to Hide, then wander off staying hidden.

[hellgrammite]

Same thing. Use Stealth. to Hide, then wander off staying hidden.

That's fine, I can understand in 5e that Stealth and Hiding are pretty much interchangeable for practical purposes.

But to my point, if you make no noise and you are invisible, and you move around, are you still hidden? My point was not in every situation, but in many situations you should be. It depends on the rolls for (I did not see it as automatic loss of Hiding if you move.) You mentioned they are hidden if they do not move, which I am not sure I agree with is an absolute if they meet the criteria I mentioned.

This might be a RAW vs practical interpretation.

[Unoriginal]

Or they turn the lights on.

as I said:




Also, fighting in darkness is pretty situational. Even people with dark vision don't usually spend their time in complete darkness.

[Malifice]

But to my point, if you make no noise and you are invisible, and you move around, are you still hidden?

Yes. You're moving silently. Its what the Stealth skill expressly does.

'Hide' is just the name of the action. It also covers move silently and other means of concealing your presence.

[hellgrammite]

Yes. You're moving silently. Its what the Stealth skill expressly does.

'Hide' is just the name of the action. It also covers move silently and other means of concealing your presence.

Cool, thanks. I thought we would agree, I wasn't sure how to interpret your earlier comments to my breakdowns of stealth.

[The Shadowdove]

My players just finished LMOP four sessions in.

During the last Dungeon the druid and bard constantly put out any source of light so our gloomstalker could do their thing. It was somewhat devastating during some encounters.

Spells or effects that have a "creature that you can see" limitation are pretty much useless against the gloomstalker unless you have some other way of seeing them.

Two scenarios knocked out the gloomstalker however.

The party tried to funnel a bunch of skeletons into a hallway, very effective against under. Unfortunately for them the flame skull in the back fireballed the grouped up adventurers. Knocked out three of them in the back.

The gloomstalker also managed to walk into a room where an ambush had been prepared. Their perception check was pretty underwhelming. The door shut behind her and suddenly there were five bugbears getting a surprise round.

I try to give my players the benefit of the doubt, and don't fudge rolls. I usually roll in front of everyone... So they're completely at the mercy of my and their dice.

[Dalebert]

First off, there are people who go past level 5 in ranger? Anyhoo... it's important to note that most creatures would not know that light will make the ranger visible. They would just assume he's under a spell or something. They can see well enough with darkvision to fight unhindered so there's no particular reason to light a torch. Would seem kinda metagamey (in most circumstances) for them to do that.

[GlenSmash!]

First off, there are people who go past level 5 in ranger?

With Gloom Stalker? Sure.

Getting Wisdom Save Proficiency is nice, and re-rolling one missed attack per turn is also quite nice when using the -5/+10 from Sharpshooter (or GWM if you're crazy enough to make a GWM Ranger, which I am).

[Strangways]

My players just finished LMOP four sessions in.

During the last Dungeon the druid and bard constantly put out any source of light so our gloomstalker could do their thing. It was somewhat devastating during some encounters.



The Gloomstalker's Umbral Sight is a powerful ability in the right situation, but the party can't guarantee that those situations will occur. It's also a bit awkward to integrate it into a party where some of the other members do not have Darkvision.

[Strangways]

First off, there are people who go past level 5 in ranger?

Ninth level Horizon Walker can cast Haste. Eleventh level Hunter's longbow is a machine gun against clustered opponents.

[Naanomi]

It must be awkward to be invisible to yourself a lot of the time. You step into the light and realized your shirt is on inside out and your shaving job is awful

[Strangways]

It must be awkward to be invisible to yourself a lot of the time. You step into the light and realized your shirt is on inside out and your shaving job is awful

Fortunately, Gloom Stalkers have the "Fashion Icon" ability which lets them make any look "work."