Otto's Irresistable Dance

[Talakeal]

While we were discussing caster dominance in another thread I decided to crack open my old AD&D PHB and revisit some of the old spells and I noticed something.

A character under the effects of Otto's Irresistible Dance (a spell which allows no save) makes the subject need a natural 20 to pass a saving throw while affected. I had always assumed this had only applied to what would now be termed "reflex" saves, but it doesn't say that, the way its worded it means all saves.

Is this intended? Is this how people ordinarily rule it?

How does it make any sense, from other an in character setting explanation or a mechanical game balance situation, that just because someone is dancing they now have no defense against being mind controlled or turned into a toad?

[Max_Killjoy]

While we were discussing caster dominance in another thread I decided to crack open my old AD&D PHB and revisit some of the old spells and I noticed something.

A character under the effects of Otto's Irresistible Dance (a spell which allows no save) makes the subject need a natural 20 to pass a saving throw while affected. I had always assumed this had only applied to what would now be termed "reflex" saves, but it doesn't say that, the way its worded it means all saves.

Is this intended? Is this how people ordinarily rule it?

How does it make any sense, from other an in character setting explanation or a mechanical game balance situation, that just because someone is dancing they now have no defense against being mind controlled or turned into a toad?

One of the original bad spells.

Fairly early gaming experience of mine was a group telling the DM that using that spell against PCs was a deal-breaker -- because it allowed no save and they read it as caused the "natural 20 only" effect on all saves.

[Lord Torath]

Nasty spell. Range of Touch makes it a bit better, but isn't there a Spectral Hand or Something spell that lets you deliver "touch" spells at range?

[Scots Dragon]

Nasty spell. Range of Touch makes it a bit better, but isn't there a Spectral Hand or Something spell that lets you deliver "touch" spells at range?

Yes, but it doesn't work with Otto's Irresistible Dance.

Spectral Hand allows for touch spells of 4th-level or lower to be cast at range, but Otto's Irresistible Dance is an 8th-level spell and well outside those parameters. Of course this provides pretty much all of the balance you'd ever really need for Otto's Irresistible Dance. It's an 8th-level spell, only has a range of touch, has to overcome standard armour class rather than the 'touch AC' introduced in D&D 3E, and has a duration of only 1d4+1 rounds.

It's the same level as spells like Polymorph Any Object, Prismatic Wall, and Maze, so doesn't stand out too strongly.

[Talakeal]

Yes, but it doesn't work with Otto's Irresistible Dance.

Spectral Hand allows for touch spells of 4th-level or lower to be cast at range, but Otto's Irresistible Dance is an 8th-level spell and well outside those parameters. Of course this provides pretty much all of the balance you'd ever really need for Otto's Irresistible Dance. It's an 8th-level spell, only has a range of touch, has to overcome standard armour class rather than the 'touch AC' introduced in D&D 3E, and has a duration of only 1d4+1 rounds.

It's the same level as spells like Polymorph Any Object, Prismatic Wall, and Maze, so doesn't stand out too strongly.

Its not great in combat, but the fact that if you can get ahold of someone they auto-fail to save against whatever sort of follow up spell you want to cast seems quite strange to me, both from a fluff and crunch perspective.

[Scots Dragon]

Its not great in combat, but the fact that if you can get ahold of someone they auto-fail to save against whatever sort of follow up spell you want to cast seems quite strange to me, both from a fluff and crunch perspective.

I suppose you could interpret its fluff as incorporating elements of the greater malison spell, another spell that reduces the effectiveness of all saving throws, which is actually also an enchantment/charm spell on that note. Hence why it's such a high level option.

[Jay R]

How does it make any sense, from other an in character setting explanation or a mechanical game balance situation, that just because someone is dancing they now have no defense against being mind controlled or turned into a toad?

First of all, you are trying to apply 3e logic to 2e. The idea that the save against mind control is a will save assumes that the spell automatically hits you, and your mind shrugs it off if you make the save. That idea is not found in the 2e books. The categories of saving throw are:

1) Paralyzation, Poison, or Death Magic
2) Rod, Staff, or Wand
3) Petrification or Polymorph
4) Breath Weapon
5) Spell

A Domination spell from a staff has the same kind of saving throw as a Grease spell from a staff, but not the same kind as a Domination spell directly. It isn't separated by will, reflex, and fortitude. It could be that Otto's spell might make it harder for you to dodge a spell, or that spell attracts other spells, or your body is busy trying to fight off that spell, or some such.

Secondly, it's not "just because someone is dancing", or it would apply to all dances at all times.

They have very little defense against magic because they are under the influence of a very high level spell that reduces their defense against magic. Dancing isn't inherently the only effect of the spell's magic.