[Legendary Games] Legendary Shifter open playtest

[N. Jolly]

Happy holidays, all! Today I bring you the gift of the legendary shifter playtest! This playtest will be going on for the next 3-4 weeks, and as time goes on, I'll no doubt be adding additional content to the project. I do hope that you'll enjoy it, and hope to see your comments!

Legendary Shifter Playtest (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Lt8UNucfUoHM0BasjfLple54IG91B1xd97cZ8p4LQeg/edit?usp=sharing)

[thecrimsondawn]

Lets take a look....

Shifter Aspect
I feel the wording could be arranged a little differently to be more in line with the rest of the Pathfinder content. For example, Instead of "Until a shifter reaches 9th level and gains the chimeric aspect class feature, she can assume only one form at a time. " It could read "A shifter can only assume one form at a time" since Chimeric Aspect is a class feature that over rides that limitation, or Chimeric Aspect could be fused into Shifter Aspect and it could read "Once a shifter reaches 9th level, she gains the ability to assume 2 forms from her chosen aspect" or something along those lines. Mechanically, this changes nothing, but just leaving feedback as it comes to mind.

Shifter Evolution
"This magical transformation is fueled as much by the shifter’s faith in the natural world as it is by inborn talent"
Im not a druid player so I could be wrong here, but I thought faith had nothing to do with their power, and it more along the lines of their connection to nature and its balance.

"Due to the supernatural nature of these claws and bite, their damage does not increase or decrease due to the shifter’s size."
I feel this does not fit very well. I see no reason for this limitation to be there since there already is a rather harsh limitation on effective size changes already. Instead, since this version is getting wild shape up to a huge animal, adjust the damage progression as they level down a bit, or perhaps have it scale like sacred weapon damage, or even make it "which ever is better". Even without any damage changes, you are looking at a whole 2d8 more damage as a huge animal with 3 attacks. Its not really a big deal.

Also bite attacks tend to have one single step more damage on the dice chart then claw attacks.

What I would like to see is an option to gain grab with the claws, or trip with the bite attack as some type of class feature or option to keep the focus more on the natural attacks.

Aspects
I find some of them to be a bit...weak. Frog for example - I see no reason ever why I would want to choose a form to get a bonus to acrobatics checks only. Perhaps giving them some other monster related ability to go with it on the weaker ones may bring them more in line with the others. For example - Monkey could gain a climb speed, Lizard could be under the effects of spider climb or something, and frog could have the ability to breathe under water (or vastly increased breath).



I will go over the archetypes shortly.

[thecrimsondawn]

Bound Beastmaster

Ok, I have to admit, the concept is cool AF. However looking at what it replaces is a really harsh blow. Let me run some math here to see if its big a deal as I think, or if I am just over thinking things.
Gain -
Animal Companion: extra action economy is a good thing, but you can also get this via a feat too.
Bound Evolution: Keeping track of two different instances of damage seems a little needless, most of all since the animal companion will be slightly weaker then you are in terms of hit and damage. I suggest reducing the rate the damage increases by a solid amount, but it applies to both.
Shared Aspect It sounds really cool, and fluff wise, is also cool, but the current aspects are limited in power. Due to the animal companions stats, I worry that most players will always pick the same couple of aspects just to be effective.
Dual Beasts To me, this is what this whole archetype is all about. I honestly feel they should get this when the wild shape class feature is gained and not so late in level since most games end around lv10 or so anyway. If this is done, then the claw damage scaling could just be dropped all together.
Loss
defensive instinct - bonus AC means you will be hit more, and if you go for larger sized animals, you will be getting hit a LOT more. However the animal companion offsets this by adding more hp and more actions per round, so I dont see this as such a bad trade off now.
chimeric aspect and greater chimeric aspect.
The aspects are not really that strong to begin with, and are more for flavor, however, this means you will be loosing out on some free enhancement bonuses, and skill bonuses. Since you still get one aspect, and your animal gets one too, this is really a good trade I feel.

Over all, I rate this archetype 7/10. It looks fun, its not gimped, and needs little editing or changing.

Dragon Touched
Gains
Breath Weapon The code or line option is great. The current damage is nice early levels, and useless around level 5+. A simple scaling damage adjustment will fix this, but it cant be too strong either. I will ponder over this a bit as to not give a bad opinion.
Ok, after pondering, since you are replacing 2 claw attacks, I feel the breath damage should be twice the listed damage, not just the listed damage. Most of all due to the 1d4 round cooldown and the fact you only have 1 natural attack to defend yourself with in melee range. This almost forces you into needing a weapon for this archetype.
Draconic Resistance Assuming a high wisdom mod, you are looking at powerful early game resistance, and below average late game resistance. I feel adjusting the resistance to scale at various levels, and become an immunity around lv15 or so would be a better option considering what you give up for it.
Dragon Heritage Lv5 darkvision is WAY stronger then any other class vision advantage. While mechanically it has little effect, Its just kinda out there on the extreme end of the range of it.
Draconic Wild Shape Ok... I will adjust my thoughts on the breath weapon after reading this one. This is for sure an upgrade over wild shape. The issue I have tho is almost everything you are giving this archetype this single wild shape gives on its own. I feel the redundancy could be cleaned up a bit with some clever wording.
Chimeric Dragon This is a much larger deal then it first appears. With every other dragon or element based class I have seen in Pathfinder, none offer elemental flexibility, and it can be seen as a strong weakness that a DM can make use of. This is a strong advantage for a player, and I feel it fits the theme of shifer well.
Loss
claws The only issue I have with this is your only natural attack is bite now until you get wild shape. Since there is a 1d4 round cooldown, and you are giving up 2 attacks for that trade off, that really hurts your early game damage.
defensive instinct. AC bonus for resistance is a bit of a lack luster trade at first, but when you get the ability to shift into other dragon types, it becomes more of an advantage. I still feel that it should become an immunity later level tho due to how much damage is thrown around end game.
shifter aspect What you gain is WAYY better then the aspects, so this is a good trade. Also if I recall, form of the dragon gives enhancement bonuses anyway, but I may be mistaken.
chimeric aspect and greater chimeric aspect and I now I may need to take back what I just said about energy immunity. I overlooked this one at first. This is a passive resistance and not related to wild shape at all. This is a big deal. At level 14, that is 7+Wis(lets say +10 mod) resistance to 3 elements. 17 resist vs an average of 42 damage a round from elemental effects. That....is not even half. Judging from this math, I would say the energy resistance does indeed still need some type of buff or adjustment, but immunity may be a bit too much if this stays as is.

Over all, I rate this archetype about a 5/10. It has a lot of potential, but it needs a little work. The glaring weakness early levels is detrimental to both the fun and flavor of the class, and the redundancy of the wild shape and class features could use some cleaning up. Still, if I was wanting to play a dragon themed class, this is not a bad option.

Elemental Nexus
A Kinetic archetype? You are talking to the right person right now. Warlock was my body and soul in 3.5 and Kineticist is my current addition. Lets see what we have going on here...

Gains
Elemental Focus No limit on element choices. This is a very solid choice as there are a lot of great 3pp options out there (most by Legendary Games conveniently enough :3 )
Elemental Evolution Should read either read "gains a simple blase of her elemental focus" or add that to the elemental focus section itself since wild talent covers almost all infusions and utility talents, just to prevent any confusion. Only able to use the kinetic blast with the kinetic fist infusion? Ouch, lets keep reading to see if its worth that limitation.
Elemental Brethren Gaining utility wild talents? That is always nice, and is honestly my favorite part about Kineticist. I dont see any way to get substance infusions yet tho, so lets keep reading.
Elemental Defense A defense wild talent can be a very powerful thing. Up to 5 free burn with no burn class feature is also nice, but also limited in power compared to what the Kineticist can do. A solid trade, perhaps even better then what is replaced.
Elemental Shape Elemental forms eh? A little weaker compared to the wild shape options, but very thematic, and by no means weak in any regard.
After looking over the whole archetype, I would suggest allowing the kinetic blast to be used as a ranged blast in elemental form since you have no form or substance infusion options. Either that, or allow substance infusions to be an option instead of just utility wild talents.
Expanded Element you get BOTH expanded elements? This would be amazing...if not for the fact that Kinetic Fist is vastly reduced in effectiveness without a substance infusion. The issue is substance infusions have a burn cost, and that means it would need to eat up some resource to use...
Loss
shifter evolution Without taking the improved Kinetic Fist utility talent, a class feature to adjust it further, as well as an inability to gain or use a substance infusion, kinetic fist looses out on the fun factor big time. The high BAB of the shifter helps out with extra attacks, but this is going to force players to either dip into monk (somehow) or focus on the TWF chain to be effective. However on the other hand, late level, you will be dishing out FAR more damage then core shifter. It just has a very monk feel to it and not as fun of a Shifter feel to it. Maybe make it Kinetic Blade instead, but force it to be claws made of your element? Just a random brainstorm.
shifter aspect aspects for utility wild talents? Take!. Honestly the utility talents is what make this whole archetype worth it. The flexibility provided by the utility talents offers much to the rather straight forward, yet adaptable shifter. In this trade, the archetype comes out on top.
defensive instinct This is a very good trade depending on your chosen element. Since you only get about half of what a Kineticist can get burn wise, some options will be more limited then others, but the flexibility of the elements makes this a real gem. Once again, the archetype comes out on top.
chimeric aspect and greater chimeric aspect The trade is good, but the glaring weakness of this trade is you get nowhere near enough utility talents to make the elements you gain really useful. suggestion add a feat for this archetype that treats their defense talent as having 1 more burn in it, and can be taken multiple times. Since the archetype is already feat starved, I feel this will be a sold addition to its utility and fun.

Over all rating of this archetype? 7/10, but I may be a little bias on this one. Kinetic fist is a rather sub par option until around level 11 or so when you get your next attack as well as open up improved TWF. That means you get 2d6 extra damage on each of your 5 attacks. It really adds up. However, this also means you will need to pick up improved unarmed strike (something this archetype needs to either give, or change kinetic fist to kinetic blade[claws]) or you will provoke an AoO from attacking and deal non lethal damage with your non element damage. This also means players will be wanting to pick up greater unarmed strike, weapon finesse, deadly agility, and a monks robe just to really be a solid damage dealer. I know most of this is 3pp, but then again, so is this class.


This thing has a ton of archetypes. Taking a little break, and then I will get back to reviewing some more.

[Powerdork]

So let's pretend I stopped buying Pathfinder books at around the time Mythic Adventures was released. Why does this opening post give me next to no information to make me want to perform the second click?

Edit: Cool class, but for something centred around shapeshifting, pretty lacking in shapeshifting.

[khadgar567]

agreed with metool currently 3 of our levels are useless to us due we need master of many forms prc to get same flexibility like druid. and if we want to go to equal power we need planar shephard to mix so four dump levels before we get the concept right.
but i like spiritual guidance feat so we can jump out from class more easyly

[Roadie]

Cool class, but for something centred around shapeshifting, pretty lacking in shapeshifting.

This is pretty much my reaction too. The class is frankly just way too beholden to the original shifter, which itself is miles behind even some of the second-rate archetypes that have already been printed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/hunter/archetypes/paizo-hunter-archetypes/feral-hunter/). Tossing it a few bennies doesn't make up for the fundamental class structure being boring and having rather little actual shapeshifting.

[exelsisxax]

Sure, it's better. Still basically just a druid using only wildshape and only animals.

Why the wierd monk AC bonus rather than natural armor and magical-beast style DR? Why base everything on wildshape, which is clunky and forces so much lookup, then also nerf it and make it act kind of weird too? Why can't the shifter screw the rules and stack beneficial polymorph effects, rather than just skirting the issue by not calling aspects polymorphs?

and that dragon archetype - much of your meager versatility and power traded out for paltry gains, I didn't even look at the rest of them. The breath weapon is tiny and low damage, you lose both claws and don't get a tail or gore attack and the bite doesn't even get 1.5x to damage. It needs FAR better damage scaling and some area scaling, and probably the advantage of monster DC scaling (1/2 HD extra). Monk AC bonus isn't amazing, but the energy resistance is extremely weak - 20 energy resistance if you pump wis hard is not something to brag about. Wings at level 9 doesn't justify losing ALL your aspects, and it costs dearly to even USE your shapeshifting properly - when you finally get access to FotD at level 10. Dissapointing. Really needs to get on that dragon quicker if you're dropping aspects, and get lots more in return, and should probably be able to go 'all-in' one dragon type as well, instead of being locked as 'all the dragons'.

[Milo v3]

1) An issue I see with this is that you're still stuck with no reason to ever use utility wildshapes until maybe 9th or 11th level because of how Wildshape Uses work. Maybe the class could be given the ability to change their wildshape mid-wildshape a number of times per day equal to their wisdom bonus? Or even just once per wildshape?

2) Is the damage not scaling with size intended to make there be a reason to stay in smaller forms in combat rather than just going giant forms?

3) Could there be some way added to that if a form you wildshape into doesn't have enough natural weapons, you can use shifter evolution to grow them? Otherwise forms like deinonychus, tiger, etc. still end up being forms you basically always should be taking because otherwise you're missing out on attacks.

[N. Jolly]

Okay, I've been TKO'd with a nasty head cold for the past two days, which is why I haven't responded to anything previously.

Something I'd like to state is the goal of a legendary class isn't to entirely abandon the previous version, but instead to attempt to enhance it in some way. In this way, the LS is a lot better than the regular shifter.

WITH that being said, a lot of you are right in that I actually have a lot of freedom to change things here, and perhaps I was too conservative with what I did. The idea of making it shifting hours/level along with continual form shifting is being taken under heavy consideration. There was a spell I was looking up before that I wanted to do but couldn't find the reference, so I might look it up more later to jive things better. While I don't want to give full wild shape at 1st level, I do agree that there could be a better way than Aspects to push the shifter narrative. At the end of the day, the base class is going to be that druid flavored class because that IS the class, and to take it that much further away from it would betray the point of a legendary class. But what I can do is work my best to try and make the concept of shifting into a more enjoyable concept, with the archetypes providing that agnostic feel that a lot of you seem to be looking for.

I do appreciate all of your feedback and I will be taking it into account in revisions to the class. In addition, I'm going to try and put changes in red if I can remember to (I'm still pretty meh, sick wise), as I'd like to make a class that appeals to both the fans of the old shifter as well as those who are looking for a more vibrant experience with the legendary class. Please continue to leave your feedback, and as soon as I'm more alive, I'll be sure to institute some changes.

[N. Jolly]

So in an attempt to give the class a more unique form of shifting, the class has abandoned wild shape, and instead turned into shifter shape. This is a more versatile form of wild shaping that should offer a lot more variety.

[Jack Mann]

A couple of minor points to improve clarity:

"At 1st level, a legendary shifter gains the ability to turn herself into any small or Medium animal and back again, although she is limited to the following forms; badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, dolphin, horse, manta ray pony, snake (viper or constrictor), or wolf."

I would eliminate "any small or medium animal" and just say "gains the ability to turn herself into any of the following forms:" and then move "any small or medium animal" to the entry for the third level improvement.

I would mention the 1/2 level+Wis Mod changes while shifter shaped the legendary shifter gets before saying that changing form while shifted costs an hour. If I read it right, paying an hour to change from, say, a wolf to an eagle is the exception that happens after you run out of the "free" changes. If that's not the case, then it needs to be further clarified in any case.

Also, just wanted to say that I like that you added in the wild shape feats to the bonus feat list. Makes it a bit more flavorful, as well as useful.