New 5e player help with character choice and optimizing

[Qbertt5681]

Hello all. As states in title, I am a first time 5e player(played 2e 20 years ago). I have been invited to join a roll20 game. The rules are phb only. He seems a little iffy on mc but said he'd allow it.

I have a couple ideas of characters is like to play (with back stories for them but I'll leave them out unless asked). I'm asking for advice on which to choose and how to properly build/optimize them. What id like from the character is to be a strong combatant, but not completely one dimensional, ie useless out of melee or in social/exploration. I'd like to feel like I'm contributing in multiple ways, but being strong in combat is important to me. Here are my ideas.

1) generic fighter, maybe pole arm master. I'm concerned with this character being completely one dimensional. But was thinking I could keep a decent wisdom score and still contribute with insight/perception. BM fighter.

2) slight twist on the fighter but figured maybe dip Warlock for EB devil sight for maybe a little bit of utility. BM fighter.

3) lastly my original concept was a scout/guerilla/navy seal type character. 2 ideas i had to do it were to MC fighter and rogue. The other was to go straight dex fighter but use background/v human to take stealth thieves tools survival. Want to be able to scout ahead, disarm traps, take out a lone sentry ect. But when it comes to combat be able to stand my ground and lay down the pain. Which is why I was leaning towards fighter for the multiple attacks.

For #3 I know crossbow expert and hand crossbow is optimal but if feels cheesy to me, I prefer long bow flavor

Edit: should add right now campaign is supposed to go to lvl 9, maybe keep going I'd it goes well. So theoretical lvl 20 builds are probably not what I'm looking for. Probably something that comes online early would be best, but if the campaign works out it'd be nice if it doesn't fall off the deep end past lvl 9.

Edit 2: Seems that there will now be a penalty for multi classing if the levels are not kept even. Based on responses I was starting to lean towards option #3 and something like fighter 5/rogue x. However since MC is no longer an option, do you think full fighter or full rogue is the better option, and how would you flavor the class with skills/feats/backgrounds to achieve the commando feel? Something like BM fighter with stealth, thieves tools, perception?

[nickl_2000]

I'm going to ask the questions
1) do you know the rest of the party?
2) when you played did you enjoy the combat or out of combat more?
3) what type of character did you enjoy most when you played?
4) are your looking for combat optimization, our of combat optimization, or in general the most band for your buck?

[Aett_Thorn]

Well, for the utility/out of combat usefulness, it would help to know what the other party members might be. For instance, if you don't have a party face, having a decent Charisma stat could be useful. If there's no rogue, having proficiency in thieve's tools and investigation can help. Filling in a role that the party doesn't have can give you that spotlight a bit in non-combat situation.

That said, I would say that going with choice #3 would be the way to go. Another option would also be to sub out the Fighter levels for Ranger.

[Qbertt5681]

I'm going to ask the questions
1) do you know the rest of the party?
2) when you played did you enjoy the combat or out of combat more?
3) what type of character did you enjoy most when you played?
4) are your looking for combat optimization, our of combat optimization, or in general the most band for your buck?

Thanks for responding.
1) off the top of my head I think it's a barbarian, paladin, cleric, bard, BM ranger and warlock. It's an online game I know no one.
2)tbh I think i enjoy everything but it was 20 years ago I was a kid. But I definitely enjoy cracking skulls. But I don't like sitting around doing nothing or being left out of the action.
3)I basically always played a fighter. I tend play a warrior or martial character in most games (video) I play.
4) both so I guess my answer is most bang for buck. Like I'd play rogue for the ooc stuff but I get the sense a BM fighter is just way stronger in combat. Or if I play a pole arm fighter I'm sure I'm really strong I'd things decide to play with me but outside of melee combat I'm afraid I'll just be throwing rocks or standing around looking dumb. I'm worried about my ADD kicking in in an online game so id like to not be one dimensional.

[nickl_2000]

Alright based on your response here is my thoughts. You are phb only which is a shame since scout fighter would be great for you, but you are definitely a thief rogue. They can move around easily and for the most part are better than the assassin build.

Rogues actually do quite well in combat without multiclassing, but if you want more in combat choices 2 or 3 levels in fighter certainly does help. However, doing that large of a dip means you don't get the ability stat increases (asi) that you would get otherwise.

If you want to be able to stand firm in combat and not have to move around fighter or barbarian is your best choice. You will need to fill in the skills with a good background choice. It's certainty doable, but a little harder. On the other hand, you will get feats or ASIs at level 4, 6, and 8 as a fighter, which can be huge for your character and can really help fill in gaps.

[The_Jette]

Thanks for responding.
1) off the top of my head I think it's a barbarian, paladin, wizard, bard, BM ranger and warlock. It's an online game I know no one.
2)tbh I think i enjoy everything but it was 20 years ago I was a kid. But I definitely enjoy cracking skulls. But I don't like sitting around doing nothing or being left out of the action.
3)I basically always played a fighter. I tend play a warrior or martial character in most games (video) I play.
4) both so I guess my answer is most bang for buck. Like I'd play rogue for the ooc stuff but I get the sense a BM fighter is just way stronger in combat. Or if I play a pole arm fighter I'm sure I'm really strong I'd things decide to play with me but outside of melee combat I'm afraid I'll just be throwing rocks or standing around looking dumb. I'm worried about my ADD kicking in in an online game so id like to not be one dimensional.

If you work with your team, a Rogue can be a huge damage dealer by tactically applying their Sneak Attack damage to enemies using a combination of melee and ranged attacks. You have the ability to move more strategically, since you can use your bonus action to dash or disengage. And, with finesse weapons, you're doing just as much damage in close range as you are with long range. Also, if you take the Lucky feat, you can turn disadvantage into improved advantage 3x a day, just in case you can't duck away for some reason.

[Unoriginal]

Even a melee-optimized Fighter won't be useless outside of melee and/or in social/exploration. Not amazing, sure, but not useless unless you deliberately make them so.

[Willie the Duck]

If you are looking for bang for your buck, and you want to play a fighter, I guess my best advice is to pick up your combat schtick as quickly as you can and then use the rest of your ASIs, your background, and your skills to give your character depth. A Str-based fighter with PAM and GWM or a Dex-based one with Sharpshooter has fulfilled their obligation to the party to be competent in combat. The rest is gravy. You can:


If Dex-based (or with a Medium Armor Master Build), pick up the criminal background and be good at sneaking, lockpicking, etc.)
If you have a third decent stat, pick Charisma, and the social skills, along with Inspiring Leader
Or Wisdom, and pick up insight and perception (and or medicine, animal handling, or survival, if the cleric and ranger have picked other things) and maybe ritual caster: cleric (augury and the like are very useful, if the cleric doesn't play all the time)
Or intelligence (although this is likely only if the wizard doesn't play all the time) and pick up knowledge skills, investigation, and maybe Ritual Casting: Wizard (having a second person who can cast identify, read magic, detect magic, comprehend languages, alarm, and leodmund's hut is great, and an owl familiar helps you get advantage on your attacks).
Skilled, Healer, and perception, insight, and investigation skills are useful to everyone.



A fighter-rogue is actually a great idea, and one of the more synergistic options available. Don't do a 1:1 split though. Either focus on getting to multiple attacks quickly with only a minor dip into rogue, or focus on sneak attack, and only a level or two of fighter. A rogue is one of the few classes where two-weapon fighting is advised, so a light fighter dip to facilitate that helps. Or expertise(athletics) makes a great pushing build (maybe with shield master feat, if you want to go sword and board). If you are quite high level, evening out the classes a bit is possible, since (example) and v. human fighter 8/rogue8 is going to have 7 ASIs to mess around with (on a low-MAD situation), allowing enough shenanigans to outweigh losing the high-level perks single classing gets you at an equivalent level.

Hope that helps.

[Qbertt5681]

Alright based on your response here is my thoughts. You are phb only which is a shame since scout fighter would be great for you, but you are definitely a thief rogue. They can move around easily and for the most part are better than the assassin build.

Rogues actually do quite well in combat without multiclassing, but if you want more in combat choices 2 or 3 levels in fighter certainly does help. However, doing that large of a dip means you don't get the ability stat increases (asi) that you would get otherwise.

If you want to be able to stand firm in combat and not have to move around fighter or barbarian is your best choice. You will need to fill in the skills with a good background choice. It's certainty doable, but a little harder. On the other hand, you will get feats or ASIs at level 4, 6, and 8 as a fighter, which can be huge for your character and can really help fill in gaps.

Yea, scout fighter is what I would wake. Haha. I do like the thief rogue. My only worry was that from what I read a BM fighter is a much better in combat archer. So what if I went BM fighter with 2-3 levels of rogue?

How much of an effect on damage and reliability does the extra attacks and BM maneuvers have on damage vs single sneak attacks.

Also what I meant by stand firm was sort of like how navy seals operate in stealth but you still definitely don't want to get in a shoot out with them. See lone survivor.

Also as an aside if anyone played dragons dogma video game, there is a class in there that uses too daggers a bow and can climb large monsters. I sort of envisioned a fighter thief doing that but I'm sure that won't fly.

[Qbertt5681]

If you work with your team, a Rogue can be a huge damage dealer by tactically applying their Sneak Attack damage to enemies using a combination of melee and ranged attacks. You have the ability to move more strategically, since you can use your bonus action to dash or disengage. And, with finesse weapons, you're doing just as much damage in close range as you are with long range. Also, if you take the Lucky feat, you can turn disadvantage into improved advantage 3x a day, just in case you can't duck away for some reason.

True. But It seems conditional, but maybe it's common. How does this compare to a BM fighter with multiple attacks using SS and precision dice?

[Qbertt5681]

Even a melee-optimized Fighter won't be useless outside of melee and/or in social/exploration. Not amazing, sure, but not useless unless you deliberately make them so.

Any tips on how not to screw that up?

Also I guess I worry that I've seen a few threads around were people complain about op fighter or barbarian killing everything. And all the suggestions are using flying enemies, ranged enemies, enemies in trees ect. So i guess I was just thinking how all that would make me feel useless.

[Willie the Duck]

How much of an effect on damage and reliability does the extra attacks and BM maneuvers have on damage vs single sneak attacks.

Extra attack is considered the defining feature of martial (non-rogue) characters, such that it is said that the point in time when you regret multiclassing is at level 5 when your teammates get either an extra attack or 3rd level spells, and you get... whatever synergy your level-2 X/level-3 Y gets. That said, people still multiclass, so there must be something as valuable.

I would say that the extra attack, plus BM maneuvers, plus second wind and action surge and fighting style make the fighter a better ranged combatant. And I'd hope that would be the case, given that the rogue has so much non-combat utility.

Sneak Attack (especially ranged sneak attack) is one of those things that we on forums can talk up one side of the issue and down the other and your DM is still going to be the biggest factor related to its effectiveness. The #1 best way to sneak attack at range is to attack from hiding. By the rules, after level #2, you can hide as a bonus action, so you can get your sneak attack in most rounds (when you don't need to use the bonus action for something else). However, whether you can hide in a given situation is going to depend on DM ruling. We can tell you what the rule book says and be just as fervent as we want about how it is supposed to work... and all it takes is your DM saying, "no, that's stupid, you cannot hide under those circumstances" and everything we've said will mean nothing.


Also as an aside if anyone played dragons dogma video game, there is a class in there that uses too daggers a bow and can climb large monsters. I sort of envisioned a fighter thief doing that but I'm sure that won't fly.


A rogue/fighter dex-build who uses bows and twf is a fine concept (and daggers rather than shortswords isn't that much of a damage hit for flavor purposes). Climbing on giants--I know they tried that with halflings or gnomes in 3e. I think it has always been a problem to adjudicate exactly what kind of benefit that should give, how to not make it an insta-win if fighting one enemy (i.e. the giant can't just crush the guy climbing on them and thus the guy can just kill them with impunity) while still making it advantageous enough that someone would ever do so, and so forth. Just having multiple creatures in the same space is enough of a rules nightmare that I understand why this edition (which strives to be less convoluted than other editions) doesn't have specific rules for this.

[Qbertt5681]

If you are looking for bang for your buck, and you want to play a fighter, I guess my best advice is to pick up your combat schtick as quickly as you can and then use the rest of your ASIs, your background, and your skills to give your character depth. A Str-based fighter with PAM and GWM or a Dex-based one with Sharpshooter has fulfilled their obligation to the party to be competent in combat. The rest is gravy. You can:


If Dex-based (or with a Medium Armor Master Build), pick up the criminal background and be good at sneaking, lockpicking, etc.)
If you have a third decent stat, pick Charisma, and the social skills, along with Inspiring Leader
Or Wisdom, and pick up insight and perception (and or medicine, animal handling, or survival, if the cleric and ranger have picked other things) and maybe ritual caster: cleric (augury and the like are very useful, if the cleric doesn't play all the time)
Or intelligence (although this is likely only if the wizard doesn't play all the time) and pick up knowledge skills, investigation, and maybe Ritual Casting: Wizard (having a second person who can cast identify, read magic, detect magic, comprehend languages, alarm, and leodmund's hut is great, and an owl familiar helps you get advantage on your attacks).
Skilled, Healer, and perception, insight, and investigation skills are useful to everyone.



A fighter-rogue is actually a great idea, and one of the more synergistic options available. Don't do a 1:1 split though. Either focus on getting to multiple attacks quickly with only a minor dip into rogue, or focus on sneak attack, and only a level or two of fighter. A rogue is one of the few classes where two-weapon fighting is advised, so a light fighter dip to facilitate that helps. Or expertise(athletics) makes a great pushing build (maybe with shield master feat, if you want to go sword and board). If you are quite high level, evening out the classes a bit is possible, since (example) and v. human fighter 8/rogue8 is going to have 7 ASIs to mess around with (on a low-MAD situation), allowing enough shenanigans to outweigh losing the high-level perks single classing gets you at an equivalent level.

Hope that helps.

Great suggestions, seems I was thinking on the right path. As fighter was going to go.wisdom for insight perception. Also thought things like magic initiate and ritual caster seems cool but probably useless if we have other casters.

With the "navy seal" build I was thinking of either going BM fighter Dex with urchin or criminal background. Or BM fighter rogue MC.

If I go the MC route when and how much? I was think 2 rogue levels would cover it but I could go 3 if I wanted archetype and one more die. My concern is also it's supposed to go to lvl 9 so worried the MC slow me down too much or take too long to come online.

If I take fighter 1 rogue 1 I get my expertise early but I delay my fighter goodies so I feel I'll lag behind.

If I wait to 5 to dip then i takes a while to get my identity. Also if the campaign does extend a little longer I will probably never see my 3rd fighter attack.

Also seems everyone so far prefers the archer vs the melee.

[The_Jette]

True. But It seems conditional, but maybe it's common. How does this compare to a BM fighter with multiple attacks using SS and precision dice?

Well, imo, your SA dice don't run out. I know you get them back at the end of a long rest. But, there's always the potential of running out in the middle of combat, right when you need them most. I've had back to back to back encounters that ended with my character having literally nothing left in my repertoire except basic attacks. Then, I've had multiple game sessions where I only had one combat per session, and could use whatever resources I wanted at my leisure. So, it depends on the game. But, if you make a ranged rogue, and do a combination of stealth and shooting those enemies engaged with your party, you'll be able to regularly do a ton of damage. It's not the Nova of the Paladin or the straight Fighter. But, our group's Rogue has the highest average damage in our group right now. Of course, support goes both ways. If your party regularly gets annoyed at your for "kill stealing" then you're gonna have a bad day playing a Rogue.

[Qbertt5681]

Well, imo, your SA dice don't run out. I know you get them back at the end of a long rest. But, there's always the potential of running out in the middle of combat, right when you need them most. I've had back to back to back encounters that ended with my character having literally nothing left in my repertoire except basic attacks. Then, I've had multiple game sessions where I only had one combat per session, and could use whatever resources I wanted at my leisure. So, it depends on the game. But, if you make a ranged rogue, and do a combination of stealth and shooting those enemies engaged with your party, you'll be able to regularly do a ton of damage. It's not the Nova of the Paladin or the straight Fighter. But, our group's Rogue has the highest average damage in our group right now. Of course, support goes both ways. If your party regularly gets annoyed at your for "kill stealing" then you're gonna have a bad day playing a Rogue.

I did kind of feel disappointed at the small number of superiority dice and that the number doesn't really increase. The DM actually just ruled there is a penalty for multiclassing So I guess i need to settle on fighter or rogue. Was actually starting to lean towards fighter 5/rogue x+

[Crgaston]

You sound like you are getting your concept dialed in.

What kind of penalty? Is it recurring? If it is just a one time thing, Rogue 2/BattlemasterX might fill the bill if the penalty isn’t too harsh. Two levels will get you quite far along towards your concept with Expertise in Stealth and Perception and Cunning Action.

I’m surprised, given your description of how you envision your character, that there hasn’t been much discussion of Ranger. With no multiclasaing it might be the best fit. I’d probably go Hunter if XGtE is off the table.

For a lvl1 Human feat, Crossbow expert refluffed to apply to bows instead. (ask your DM... suggest that if you chose to take the bonus action attack on a round, both attacks must use hand xbow stats for damage and range). Or Magic Initiate Druid for Mold Earth, another cantrips, and Goodberry.

[Spore]

I always liked a good skill portion on my combatants if they lack ANY (utility) magic. Because a character only useful in combat is only fun there too. So I'd say Rogue 1/Fighter x.

[Qbertt5681]

I always liked a good skill portion on my combatants if they lack ANY (utility) magic. Because a character only useful in combat is only fun there too. So I'd say Rogue 1/Fighter x.

That was my thought too, unfortunately the MC is no go. So I'm trying to decide between Ranger, archer fighter, rogue, or just going the polearm fighter.

[Qbertt5681]

You sound like you are getting your concept dialed in.

What kind of penalty? Is it recurring? If it is just a one time thing, Rogue 2/BattlemasterX might fill the bill if the penalty isn’t too harsh. Two levels will get you quite far along towards your concept with Expertise in Stealth and Perception and Cunning Action.

I’m surprised, given your description of how you envision your character, that there hasn’t been much discussion of Ranger. With no multiclasaing it might be the best fit. I’d probably go Hunter if XGtE is off the table.

For a lvl1 Human feat, Crossbow expert refluffed to apply to bows instead. (ask your DM... suggest that if you chose to take the bonus action attack on a round, both attacks must use hand xbow stats for damage and range). Or Magic Initiate Druid for Mold Earth, another cantrips, and Goodberry.

It will be a 10% XP penalty for each level of difference between your classes. So slowing down leveling if I MC.

How does a Rangers damage compare to a Fighters with a bow? I could ask about the Xbow feat. I don't know if he'll allow it, seems to be strict with the rules, which is fine by me just don't know if it'll fly. Ranger does seem to fit but when I read the description nothing really jumps out at me as yea, this is it. I guess I should look over the spell list more closely. But I guess now I'm trying to decide if full Ranger or fighter with careful skill choice is better than full rogue.

[The_Jette]

It will be a 10% XP penalty for each level of difference between your classes. So slowing down leveling if I MC.

How does a Rangers damage compare to a Fighters with a bow? I could ask about the Xbow feat. I don't know if he'll allow it, seems to be strict with the rules, which is fine by me just don't know if it'll fly. Ranger does seem to fit but when I read the description nothing really jumps out at me as yea, this is it. I guess I should look over the spell list more closely. But I guess now I'm trying to decide if full Ranger or fighter with careful skill choice is better than full rogue.

Are you serious?! That's a harsher penalty than there was in 3.X edition, where they had a 20% per class that wasn't within 1 of each other. At least that one maxed out. With 10% per level of difference, you can have over a 100% xp penalty. That's ridiculous!

[Qbertt5681]

Are you serious?! That's a harsher penalty than there was in 3.X edition, where they had a 20% per class that wasn't within 1 of each other. At least that one maxed out. With 10% per level of difference, you can have over a 100% xp penalty. That's ridiculous!

Yea seems pretty harsh. So basically multi classing is out. Got the impression he doesn't like multi classing at all.

[Willie the Duck]

It's not ridiculous so much as kinda weird-- MC is completely optional. If you don't want to include it, make a hard ban (or something like case-by-case veto).

But doing it this way does one thing which I can understand-it discourages dipping. If you keep your classes within 1 of each other, you'll roughly have a 10% penalty half the time. imminently survivable (although having to wait until level 9 to get a fighter-rogue up to fighter 5 makes it seem unlikely to be worth it.

[Qbertt5681]

I'm actually starting to wonder if I should just go pole arm BM fighter and save my commando idea for another game where I can MC fighter rogue Or gloomstalker rogue. Seems to got better. I may be misreading it but ranger seems underwhelming, and rogue by itself, I guess could work but I'm not sure.

Other option is i guess BM fighter with a custom background (if he'll let me) so I can get perception, stealth, thieves tools, survival and the map in my head feature.

[Crgaston]

It will be a 10% XP penalty for each level of difference between your classes. So slowing down leveling if I MC.

How does a Rangers damage compare to a Fighters with a bow? I could ask about the Xbow feat. I don't know if he'll allow it, seems to be strict with the rules, which is fine by me just don't know if it'll fly. Ranger does seem to fit but when I read the description nothing really jumps out at me as yea, this is it. I guess I should look over the spell list more closely. But I guess now I'm trying to decide if full Ranger or fighter with careful skill choice is better than full rogue.

10% per lvl difference sounds like if you just alternated levels between Fighter and Rogue you’d be ok, but that’s kind of a pain. 5e already penalizes multiclassing compared to 3.5 by tying ASIs to class level instead of character level.

The downside with fighters if you’re wanting skills is that you only get two. Plus your two from background and one from Variant Human or two from Half elf. Ranger starts with 3 and Rogue 4. So given Sleight of Hand and Stealth from Urchin, you’ll want Perception, Athletics, Survival and Insight.

Rangers do fine for archery damage. Archery style for +2 to hit helps a bunch.
Check out the first level spell Hunters Mark... lasts an hour and adds 1d6 per hit. Also at third level if you take the Hunter path you can add 1d8 (Colossus Slayer feature) on one wounded target per turn. With a 16 Dex that’s 2d8+1d6+3 from a longbow, best case. At 5th, if you bump Dex at 4th, with your 2nd Attack you’ll have 3d8+2d6+8, again, assuming that you have Hunters mark up and that Colossus Slayer will process.

The 1st level spell Hail of thorns is a good ambush-opening move... sort of a mini grenade with 1d10 extra damage to anyone within 5 feet of your target.

For 2nd level spells, Spike Growth is top notch. Also Pass Without Trace for party Stealth and Darkvision if you’re a human.

Heck, here’s a handy link for when you’re away from your book.

https://thebombzen.com/grimoire/tags/ranger.html

[Willie the Duck]

I may be misreading it but ranger seems underwhelming, and rogue by itself, I guess could work but I'm not sure.

Other option is i guess BM fighter with a custom background (if he'll let me) so I can get perception, stealth, thieves tools, survival and the map in my head feature.

Ranger is... well, the PHB Ranger options are definitely harder to make flourish than most other options. A criminal background fighter can have perception, stealth, thieves tools, and survival. As a Battlemaster, your student of war ability grants you a tool proficiency. Pick Cartographers tools and I bet you can argue that your character can do effectively the same things as the map in my head feature.

[Spore]

Pick a Variant Human Fighter with the Skilled Feat then. +4 Skills means 8 Skills to pick from.

[Qbertt5681]

Pick a Variant Human Fighter with the Skilled Feat then. +4 Skills means 8 Skills to pick from.

I have actually thought about doing this. Only worried giving up my lvl 1 combat feat would hinder my fighting. But it is certainly a good option to be versatile. Thanks.

[Qbertt5681]

10% per lvl difference sounds like if you just alternated levels between Fighter and Rogue you’d be ok, but that’s kind of a pain. 5e already penalizes multiclassing compared to 3.5 by tying ASIs to class level instead of character level.

The downside with fighters if you’re wanting skills is that you only get two. Plus your two from background and one from Variant Human or two from Half elf. Ranger starts with 3 and Rogue 4. So given Sleight of Hand and Stealth from Urchin, you’ll want Perception, Athletics, Survival and Insight.

Rangers do fine for archery damage. Archery style for +2 to hit helps a bunch.
Check out the first level spell Hunters Mark... lasts an hour and adds 1d6 per hit. Also at third level if you take the Hunter path you can add 1d8 (Colossus Slayer feature) on one wounded target per turn. With a 16 Dex that’s 2d8+1d6+3 from a longbow, best case. At 5th, if you bump Dex at 4th, with your 2nd Attack you’ll have 3d8+2d6+8, again, assuming that you have Hunters mark up and that Colossus Slayer will process.

The 1st level spell Hail of thorns is a good ambush-opening move... sort of a mini grenade with 1d10 extra damage to anyone within 5 feet of your target.

For 2nd level spells, Spike Growth is top notch. Also Pass Without Trace for party Stealth and Darkvision if you’re a human.

Heck, here’s a handy link for when you’re away from your book.

https://thebombzen.com/grimoire/tags/ranger.html

Thank you, that does make ranger seem decent. I may just save it for a different campaign if I'm lucky enough to keep finding people to play with.

[Qbertt5681]

Ranger is... well, the PHB Ranger options are definitely harder to make flourish than most other options. A criminal background fighter can have perception, stealth, thieves tools, and survival. As a Battlemaster, your student of war ability grants you a tool proficiency. Pick Cartographers tools and I bet you can argue that your character can do effectively the same things as the map in my head feature.

That is actually a pretty cool idea. So thinking about this I came up with a couple options, tell me what you think.

1) One of my original single class ideas, Pole arm fighter. Battle master. I'll take soldier background, athletics and intimidation. Perception and insight, and history. Take cartographers tools with BM. The campaign starts with us working for the crown. So my idea, is he's a soldier, but not a dummy, he's a student of war, spends his time making and studying maps and military history. He's ambitious, started a peasant, joined the army and worked his way up, wants to be a lord or command his own company. Ability scores 16-10-14-10-13-12. I know it's optimal to dump int and cha probably but, I can't stomach playing a dumbass. At least not my first game. I assume my first feat should be pole arm master. Now my question is, after t hat, what are the priorities between GWM, sentinel, and resilient wisdom, and STR increases. I feel like i should go sentinel at lvl 4 then pump str to 20, then game probably over. Thoughts? I'm also hoping with the backstory and skills I will be useful out of combat as well.

2) BM fighter but an archer, take Perception, survival, insight, acrobatics, thieves tools(I think that adds up?) Cartographers tools again. Sort of a ghetto ranger version of my commando idea. Probably just swap the STr and Dex from the ability scores up top. Sharpshooter ft lvl 1, then max dex.

3) Ranger archer: Seems like it fills my concept but maybe I'll hold that idea in my back pocket for a theoretical game in the future when i can take gloom stalker and MC with rogue. Which is closer to my original vision.

4) Straight Rogue: For an unexplained reason I just feel luke warm about this. Also seems the DM is a stickler so I don't know if I'll be able to pull off the hiding bit for sneak attacks. Open to have my mind changed though.

So sorry for dragging this out, but any thoughts now that I have a more detailed plan?

[Willie the Duck]

That is actually a pretty cool idea. So thinking about this I came up with a couple options, tell me what you think.
Will do. I am going to cut up your quotes since it's right above this and thus easy for anyone to go back and look at yours.

Pole arm fighter [BM]. Soldier background-athletics, intimidation, perception, insight, history and cartographers tools. ... He's a soldier, but not a dummy, a student of war, makes/studies maps and military history. Ambitious, started a peasant, joined army and worked his way up, wants to be a lord or command his own company. 16-10-14-10-13-12. ... I assume my first feat should be pole arm master. Now after that, what are the priorities between GWM, sentinel, and resilient wisdom, and STR increases?... Also hoping with the backstory and skills I will be useful out of combat as well.

Intimidation and history are as useful as your DM decides they are. I would not worry about not dumping int/cha. A 14 Con is just fine, especially at low level (and if you have some bad rolls at higher levels, I say pick up toughness instead of +2 Con). PAM is a great feat at 1st since it gives you bonus and reaction-attacks at a time when +1or2 attacks is doubling or tripling your output. Plus you know you want it. GWM, sentinel, and resilient wisdom... well, all of them are great to have, but you really want to feel out your DM to see how often the battlefield control of sentinel is important, or how often you will be up against wisdom saves, and how often you can get advantage on attacks (easiest way to make the -5/+10 of GWM a tactically sound choice). Str boosts are always useful, but for this build I think a distant 4th or more. If you end up with a +2-3 polearm or gauntlets of ogre power, then the taking the ASI instead of a vital feat will seem like a poor decision. So again, wait on those until you feel out your DM's style.


BM fighter--archer, perception, survival, insight, acrobatics, thieves tools (?). Cartographers tools again. Sort of a ghetto ranger version of my commando idea. Probably just swap the STr and Dex from the ability scores up top. Sharpshooter ft lvl 1, then max dex.

This adds up, but what background is doing so? With a dex build you absolutely want that 20 Dex ASAP (assuming you ever get targeted, and that depends on how strong a melee front line you have, so it is party-specific).


Ranger archer: maybe I'll hold that idea for a future game when i can [get] closer to my original vision.

Good call


Straight Rogue: I just feel luke warm about this. DM is a stickler so I don't know if I'll be able to pull off the hiding bit for sneak attacks.

Despite the fact that Rogues (baring arcane tricksters) being no non-universal (so HD and HP, etc.) short- or long- rest recharging expendable resources, rogues are not what I would call simple-to-use classes (like the Champion fighter). I really don't suggest them for people's first 5e character. Instead of having expendable resources, they have expendable choices--as in, you will have to be making decisions that set up your ability to use stealth and you will be having to decide every round whether to use your bonus action to hide or withdraw (or twf, if in melee). They are relatively challenging and require being able to use the game rules smoothly to really get them to flourish. They are a lot of fun, though, so do come back to this as some point.

[Qbertt5681]

Will do. I am going to cut up your quotes since it's right above this and thus easy for anyone to go back and look at yours.


Intimidation and history are as useful as your DM decides they are. I would not worry about not dumping int/cha. A 14 Con is just fine, especially at low level (and if you have some bad rolls at higher levels, I say pick up toughness instead of +2 Con). PAM is a great feat at 1st since it gives you bonus and reaction-attacks at a time when +1or2 attacks is doubling or tripling your output. Plus you know you want it. GWM, sentinel, and resilient wisdom... well, all of them are great to have, but you really want to feel out your DM to see how often the battlefield control of sentinel is important, or how often you will be up against wisdom saves, and how often you can get advantage on attacks (easiest way to make the -5/+10 of GWM a tactically sound choice). Str boosts are always useful, but for this build I think a distant 4th or more. If you end up with a +2-3 polearm or gauntlets of ogre power, then the taking the ASI instead of a vital feat will seem like a poor decision. So again, wait on those until you feel out your DM's style.



This adds up, but what background is doing so? With a dex build you absolutely want that 20 Dex ASAP (assuming you ever get targeted, and that depends on how strong a melee front line you have, so it is party-specific).



Good call



Despite the fact that Rogues (baring arcane tricksters) being no non-universal (so HD and HP, etc.) short- or long- rest recharging expendable resources, rogues are not what I would call simple-to-use classes (like the Champion fighter). I really don't suggest them for people's first 5e character. Instead of having expendable resources, they have expendable choices--as in, you will have to be making decisions that set up your ability to use stealth and you will be having to decide every round whether to use your bonus action to hide or withdraw (or twf, if in melee). They are relatively challenging and require being able to use the game rules smoothly to really get them to flourish. They are a lot of fun, though, so do come back to this as some point.

Thanks man, big help. I have no idea how to cut up quotes, haha. so I'm just going to space it out.

Only taking intimidation because that's what is in the soldier background. Not sure what else I would take in it's stead. Would you recommend swapping history or intimidation? Figured that kinda fit the character concept. As far as feats, it seems to be that I won't necessarily need all of them? So go PAM at 1, then feel out how the game is going to decide. If I have constant advantage, take GWM, if not sentinel, if it doesn't look like I can use sentinel take Str. After lvl 4 feat then take Str increases? What maneuvers do you recommend? I was thinking Trip, riposte, precision? or menacing? I'm starting to feel like this might be the way I go since I have the most cohesive vision of this in my head.

The second build, I don't think backgrounds give me any of that stuff all in one package, I'd have to ask him to let me tweak it I think. Have to crack the book open to make sure. Also just feels kinda like a ghetto attempt to make my original guy, not sure I like it.

Seems to be sound advice on the rogue and ranger front. Gonna save that till I can do a gloom stalker 5/rogue x build I think.

The only tweek I can think of to make is do eldrich knight instead of BM. But the game is only to lvl 9 right now, and from what I can see, it seems it takes the Eldrich Knight a really long time to come online vs the BM fighter.

[Willie the Duck]

Skills/backgrounds:
I would not suggest any particular skills. There are plenty of guides out there. There are lots of opinions. I think a lot of them are white room analyses, but I could be wrong. The only thing I will mention is that perception is one roll every character will get to roll, regardless of role and Wis score, and eventually someone will try to grapple any martial, so athletics or acrobatics is a good idea.

Note that 1) modifying/mix-and-matching parts of backgrounds is core and by-the-book (not that it means your DM will use it, but it is an argument in your favor if you want to argue that your soldier "is more of a _____-type" and get a different skill/tool/benefit lineup), and 2) if your class and background skills overlap, you can take the overlaps as choose-any-skills, and this is also core and by-the-book.

Maneuvers: I find menacing, precision, and riposte to be the 3 best maneuvers, with tripping strike in the mix once you have GWM, so those are the four I recommend. What order to get them in is up to you.

Eldritch Knight: No, eldritch knight comes online just as quickly, it just doesn't play like a lot of people expected/perhaps wanted. Yes, it takes until level 15 until EKs can throw around Fireballs (if they would want to at that point), but it only takes until 3rd level until they can cast Shield, which--although perhaps not the most broken spell in the game, is definitely one of the most behavior influencing spells in the game. It means that X times a day, a moderately armored character acts as a heavily armored character, or a sword and board and plate character become Captain Unhittable. So it creates a character who is either extremely defensive, or else just uses their archetype features to boost their defense such that they can focus the rest of their options on kicking ass.

[sithlordnergal]

So, without multiclassing I would go pure Fighter with Polearm Mastery and Sentinal. You'll be able to lock things down pretty easily. See if you can use the Tunnel Fighter from Unearthed Arcana and turn yourself into an impassable block with 10ft reach. X3

Or you can go with Arcane Trickster and snag Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade to turn yourself into an exceptionally deadly Rogue. Your damage output would be much higher then a regular Rogue thanks to those two cantrips. You would also have plenty of out of combat utility.

[Crgaston]

(Dang... I typed most of this up a couple hours ago and somehow neglected to post it, so some of it is a bit redundant/irrelevant at this point, but I'll throw it out there for what it's worth...)

It's obvious you're approaching this with some thoughtfulness, so you're going to excel with whatever build you decide on.

One thing to ask the DM about is the Athletics vs Acrobatics checks. RAW, Athletics covers things like swimming, jumping and climbing and Acrobatics is relegated to balancing on things or stunts. So, if you decide to go archer, and even though it seems like Acrobatics is better for a high Dex character (because aren't acrobats good at climbing and jumping???), you may be hampering your mobility by neglecting Athletics if your DM is a stickler.

Regarding feats, (and it looks like you've settled on your melee guy) I'd probably take PAM, Sentinel, then Resilient Wis before boosting your Str. Failing Wis saves is Bad News, and if you don't take it by 8, it'll be a looong road to 12. Plus it's a boost to your Insight and Perception. 18 or even 16 Str for a while is fine, especially with the potential for 4 attacks at L5.

Regarding Con vs Tough, the later you take Tough, the better it is. It's only +1HP per level over a straight Con boost, and the Con boost adds to your saves as well.

Willie is giving good advice re: Feats... their relative merits will be DM dependent to a degree. Pay attention to how things are going at your table and re-evaluate your ideas after some play time.