Modifying Spells for a Magic-Heavy Intrigue Campaign

[17arkOracle]

Hey guys, recently I've been working on a campaign where the main conflict is more political than dungeon crawly, and PCs have to work their way up from dealing with gangs to nobles to eventually kings and queens and entire empires. With "class by population" rules (and in order for PCs to have proper challenges at each level) this means an empire probably has a handful of level 13~16 casters (and one or two max level casters) they can use, organizations have a few level ~11 casters, and even smaller time nobles being able to hire one or two level 7~9 casters.

The problem is some of the spells each faction (and the PCs) gain access too are just bonkers in a political intrigue type campaign. Getting off Dominate Person on a king would be crazy, and Greater Teleport gives any assassin or spy pretty much free reign of the world.

I could just have everyone of any importance constantly ward everything they do, but by the time I reach the point where everyone carries a pendant that makes them immune to Charm, Divination, and Teleportation, I think I'd rather just say certain spells don't exist. Saves might make things okay (since at least everyone would be equal-or-higher level) but all it might take is one failed saves for things to go horribly wrong.

I've identified a few main problem areas:

Charm: Most spells are vaguely worded enough to leave at least some wiggle room, but Dominate Person and Geas are pretty big. Dominate Person's main weakness at least is a low Sense Motive DC, but Geas is crazy.

Disguise: A good impersonation could let you get away with a lot, though allowing additional saves or bonuses against more dramatic demands might be enough. I also considered having it so if someone sees through it and points it out, everyone believes them.

Divination: Most divination is pretty vague at least, but Scrying is problematic. The main upside (downside?) is that it only lasts ~10 minutes so timing it would be hard, and I don't think having a room made to be immune to it is unreasonable. At a minimum I think it shouldn't allow you to read anything though (too blurry). Detect Thoughts is also not great.

Teleportation: Greater Teleport (and it's more random cousin Teleport) is the big thorn in my side. It gives near unprecedented access everywhere, allows for easy escape, and removes any distance required for information to travel. My only thoughts are maybe allowing anyone you're teleporting in on a Will save, and adding a casting time.

Honestly changing the spells might be a fool's errand (especially if I want a universal, easy fix) but I was at least curious if anyone else has had similar thoughts or dealings.

[Venger]

Hey guys, recently I've been working on a campaign where the main conflict is more political than dungeon crawly, and PCs have to work their way up from dealing with gangs to nobles to eventually kings and queens and entire empires. With "class by population" rules (and in order for PCs to have proper challenges at each level) this means an empire probably has a handful of level 13~16 casters (and one or two max level casters) they can use, organizations have a few level ~11 casters, and even smaller time nobles being able to hire one or two level 7~9 casters.

The problem is some of the spells each faction (and the PCs) gain access too are just bonkers in a political intrigue type campaign. Getting off Dominate Person on a king would be crazy, and Greater Teleport gives any assassin or spy pretty much free reign of the world.

I could just have everyone of any importance constantly ward everything they do, but by the time I reach the point where everyone carries a pendant that makes them immune to Charm, Divination, and Teleportation, I think I'd rather just say certain spells don't exist. Saves might make things okay (since at least everyone would be equal-or-higher level) but all it might take is one failed saves for things to go horribly wrong.

I've identified a few main problem areas:

Charm: Most spells are vaguely worded enough to leave at least some wiggle room, but Dominate Person and Geas are pretty big. Dominate Person's main weakness at least is a low Sense Motive DC, but Geas is crazy.

Disguise: A good impersonation could let you get away with a lot, though allowing additional saves or bonuses against more dramatic demands might be enough. I also considered having it so if someone sees through it and points it out, everyone believes them.

Divination: Most divination is pretty vague at least, but Scrying is problematic. The main upside (downside?) is that it only lasts ~10 minutes so timing it would be hard, and I don't think having a room made to be immune to it is unreasonable. At a minimum I think it shouldn't allow you to read anything though (too blurry). Detect Thoughts is also not great.

Teleportation: Greater Teleport (and it's more random cousin Teleport) is the big thorn in my side. It gives near unprecedented access everywhere, allows for easy escape, and removes any distance required for information to travel. My only thoughts are maybe allowing anyone you're teleporting in on a Will save, and adding a casting time.

Honestly changing the spells might be a fool's errand (especially if I want a universal, easy fix) but I was at least curious if anyone else has had similar thoughts or dealings.

That's not actually true. Sure your pcs have dominate, but kings and other people who matter have protection from evil.

having everyone in the whole campaign have magic items that block off effects is a jerkstore move, don't do it. but having a boss or king or something have one would explain why someone hasn't already made him into a sock puppet.

teleport does no such thing. there are ways to blockade it, and anticipate teleport exists, which again, anyone worth protecting in your campaign, like a king or boss, should have if you don't want him to just be a random encounter the party uses to grind for xp.

there is nothing wrong with charm dominate or geas. ench is the weakest, worst school in the game, and doesn't need any help from you nerfing it further. the whole school is nullified by a 1st level spell, and even without that, many types are immune, and geas cannot be used in combat.

disguise is weak enough. don't nerf it.

divination is all very explicitly defined. what are you talking about? there are many spells to block scrying if you want to be that gm. look them up. detect thoughts is weak, you don't need to nerf it.

don't do that to teleport, or it's essentially unusable.

the answer to spells doing stuff is always more spells, so just find the rock paper scissors that's appropriate, don't give your npcs immunity to everything good, and remember the gm has infinite resources, so you're not proving anything by beating your pcs.

[Fizban]

Dominate: has a clause about getting a new save when someone orders you to do something "against your nature." The results of this save are unclear, so make it clear, and the successful save ends the spell. Any ruler forced to act as a puppet is obviously doing things against their nature, so they will roll a 20 eventually. You can also give an escalating save bonus, like +1 or +2 every time they fail the save, so they'll succeed even faster.

Geas: ban it. No-save control should be fiat only. That said, 3d6 damage and sickening is survivable by anyone with 9 or more hit points and a 1st level divine caster on hand.

Disguise Self: limited duration, ban the continuous item, liberal interpretation of how much or little examination it takes to allow a will save, kill the bonus so it's just a standard action speedy disguise instead of the minute long skill use. . .

Various divinations: search the forum for all the previous discussions on divinations. All important people have lead-lined houses, it has an hour long casting time in order to see minutes of info from a highly restricted perspective and area, a single successful save blocks you for a day, there are magical countermeasures, etc. If you don't like Detect Thoughts then just ban it -too easy anyway, shouldn't be that low level, you'll need to grab the other higher level versions as well.

Teleportation: search for teleportation discussions, in which we've come up with even more mundane counters than the volcano lair to choose from, in addition to the magical countermeasures.

Divinations and teleportation mostly present new avenues for next level espionage, like sneaking your mole in so you can Scry a meeting instead of relying on their secondhand account, planting Gemjump focii for infiltration, people like the city full of waterways not because it's got a nice view, but because all the running water blocks teleportation and tracking spells. Stuff like that.


Now if you're worried about information travel speed, you're gonna want to ban Whispering Sand and Forest Voice (Sandstorm and Complete Champion), because they're the spells that really crush it.

[17arkOracle]

That's not actually true. Sure your pcs have dominate, but kings and other people who matter have protection from evil.

Protection from Evil only protects you from evil creatures, though (and there's no protection from neutral).


having everyone in the whole campaign have magic items that block off effects is a jerkstore move, don't do it. but having a boss or king or something have one would explain why someone hasn't already made him into a sock puppet.

teleport does no such thing. there are ways to blockade it, and anticipate teleport exists, which again, anyone worth protecting in your campaign, like a king or boss, should have if you don't want him to just be a random encounter the party uses to grind for xp.

The problem is kind of the scaling ladder of it. Sure maybe a King is protected, but what about the General or the Prince? And if they are, what about the Lieutenant or the Duke? There is certainly a cutoff (random soldiers wouldn't really be worried after all), but I'm afraid in a magic-heavy world the cutoff would be when their CR matches the spell's minimum caster level. (This might not be the worst, since you're right it would mean the boss is immune but not the underlings (which is fine) but PCs would probably still keep casting the spells on the biggest and baddest only for it to auto-fail. It also kinda falls apart when those former bosses become underlings.)


there is nothing wrong with charm dominate or geas. ench is the weakest, worst school in the game, and doesn't need any help from you nerfing it further. the whole school is nullified by a 1st level spell, and even without that, many types are immune, and geas cannot be used in combat.

Enchantment becomes a lot more powerful though when to get through people you have to win them over, rather than kill them outright.


divination is all very explicitly defined. what are you talking about? there are many spells to block scrying if you want to be that gm. look them up. detect thoughts is weak, you don't need to nerf it.

Vague for the players, not the DM. Like Divination says it can provide a cryptic rhyme or an omen, so the knowledge you give players isn't quite so clear. And I'm not sure I really want to be that DM which is why I've been asking for non-blocking solutions. The problem is scrying can be hard to deal with otherwise. Like if you're trying to figure out if two nobles are having an affair, all it takes is an hour and a 4th/5th level spell slot, instead of actually being a quest. I will keep in mind Detect Thoughts weakness though.


the answer to spells doing stuff is always more spells, so just find the rock paper scissors that's appropriate, don't give your npcs immunity to everything good, and remember the gm has infinite resources, so you're not proving anything by beating your pcs.

Yeah, you just have to get creative to partly counter rather than outright counter, which is where I've been struggling.


Dominate: has a clause about getting a new save when someone orders you to do something "against your nature." The results of this save are unclear, so make it clear, and the successful save ends the spell. Any ruler forced to act as a puppet is obviously doing things against their nature, so they will roll a 20 eventually. You can also give an escalating save bonus, like +1 or +2 every time they fail the save, so they'll succeed even faster.

Geas: ban it. No-save control should be fiat only. That said, 3d6 damage and sickening is survivable by anyone with 9 or more hit points and a 1st level divine caster on hand.

Disguise Self: limited duration, ban the continuous item, liberal interpretation of how much or little examination it takes to allow a will save, kill the bonus so it's just a standard action speedy disguise instead of the minute long skill use. . .

Thanks, I will definitely keep everything in mind. (Though uh, I don't know where you got those stats for Geas.)


Various divinations: search the forum for all the previous discussions on divinations. All important people have lead-lined houses, it has an hour long casting time in order to see minutes of info from a highly restricted perspective and area, a single successful save blocks you for a day, there are magical countermeasures, etc. If you don't like Detect Thoughts then just ban it -too easy anyway, shouldn't be that low level, you'll need to grab the other higher level versions as well.

Teleportation: search for teleportation discussions, in which we've come up with even more mundane counters than the volcano lair to choose from, in addition to the magical countermeasures.

Divinations and teleportation mostly present new avenues for next level espionage, like sneaking your mole in so you can Scry a meeting instead of relying on their secondhand account, planting Gemjump focii for infiltration, people like the city full of waterways not because it's got a nice view, but because all the running water blocks teleportation and tracking spells. Stuff like that.

Yeah, I'll try to look stuff over more. It certainly does seem that Teleport (and Scrying) have a lot of weakness, but the greater versions of both get rid of most of them. The real killer seems to be Scrying + Greater Teleport as it would let you ambush pretty much anyone anywhere, with you having very few possible protections if you're in transit (though at least there is a save from Scrying).


Now if you're worried about information travel speed, you're gonna want to ban Whispering Sand and Forest Voice (Sandstorm and Complete Champion), because they're the spells that really crush it.

Noted!

[Venger]

Protection from Evil only protects you from evil creatures, though (and there's no protection from neutral).
it also blocks mind control (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm)


The problem is kind of the scaling ladder of it. Sure maybe a King is protected, but what about the General or the Prince? And if they are, what about the Lieutenant or the Duke? There is certainly a cutoff (random soldiers wouldn't really be worried after all), but I'm afraid in a magic-heavy world the cutoff would be when their CR matches the spell's minimum caster level. (This might not be the worst, since you're right it would mean the boss is immune but not the underlings (which is fine) but PCs would probably still keep casting the spells on the biggest and baddest only for it to auto-fail. It also kinda falls apart when those former bosses become underlings.)

Rather than trying to implement this based on their rank in the nobility system as you seem to be trying to do, implement it based on game design. Give it to your bosses in the game and if you don't want to be a jerk and give it to every enemy, then don't do that.



Enchantment becomes a lot more powerful though when to get through people you have to win them over, rather than kill them outright.
huh?


Vague for the players, not the DM. Like Divination says it can provide a cryptic rhyme or an omen, so the knowledge you give players isn't quite so clear. And I'm not sure I really want to be that DM which is why I've been asking for non-blocking solutions. The problem is scrying can be hard to deal with otherwise. Like if you're trying to figure out if two nobles are having an affair, all it takes is an hour and a 4th/5th level spell slot, instead of actually being a quest. I will keep in mind Detect Thoughts weakness though.
You shouldn't want to be that gm, because that gm is bad. is that an actual example of a subplot from your campaign? if it is, then one of the people involved would obviously take some method to counteract divination from their partner. since you've mentioned in your setting nobles can afford magic (if they aren't just magic users or have court wizards or whatever) then that seems like a reasonable thing to do.




Thanks, I will definitely keep everything in mind. (Though uh, I don't know where you got those stats for Geas.)
he is getting them from the spell text (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm)



Yeah, I'll try to look stuff over more. It certainly does seem that Teleport (and Scrying) have a lot of weakness, but the greater versions of both get rid of most of them. The real killer seems to be Scrying + Greater Teleport as it would let you ambush pretty much anyone anywhere, with you having very few possible protections if you're in transit (though at least there is a save from Scrying).

Anticipate teleport exists, and there are many counters to scrying to give false or misleading information if you want to jam up your players.

[17arkOracle]

it also blocks mind control

he is getting them from the spell text

Ugh, that’s my fault for using the Pathfinder SRD rather than the d20 SRD (I had looked up Geas in the d20 SRD but only the Lesser version and assumed the regular would be an extension of it, that’s my bad too).

(3.5 versions though just have different issues.)


Rather than trying to implement this based on their rank in the nobility system as you seem to be trying to do, implement it based on game design. Give it to your bosses in the game and if you don't want to be a jerk and give it to every enemy, then don't do that.

Hm, yeah that probably is the best way to do it. I worried it might be a bit fridge logic-ish but people of similar ranking would still have different levels of risk and importance.


huh?

If you’re main challenges are monsters and obstacles Charm spells are pretty worthlesss, but if your challenges are to convince someone of something or get information from them Charm spells are like Save-or-die spells in that they could instantly end an encounter (hypothetically).


Anticipate teleport exists, and there are many counters to scrying to give false or misleading information if you want to jam up your players.

Yeah, but if whoever’s warping in is just stronger than you there’s not a lot you can do even with a warning (except maybe warp away but teleport tag just seems silly).

[Cosi]

Realistically, in a world of magic, the players in politics are people with magic. There's no reason dominating a king should do anything. If it did, someone else would have dominated him first. The person in charge is probably his wizardly advisor, or maybe someone unrelated who appears to be a minor noble.

I think the fundamental issue you are running into is that a king is just not really a high level character. High level intrigue would be something like the court of the Efreet Sultan in the City of Brass, not the king of a human kingdom. Looked at in that light, I think it becomes a lot more obvious that the solution to your concerns is "the other side also has and uses magic".


Charm: Most spells are vaguely worded enough to leave at least some wiggle room, but Dominate Person and Geas are pretty big. Dominate Person's main weakness at least is a low Sense Motive DC, but Geas is crazy.

As mentioned there are counters (protection from evil, mindblank). You can also set up antimagic fields which will probably at least tip people off that something is going on. Similarly arcane sight + dispel magic.


Disguise: A good impersonation could let you get away with a lot, though allowing additional saves or bonuses against more dramatic demands might be enough. I also considered having it so if someone sees through it and points it out, everyone believes them.

Proving identity isn't difficult. Magic items can be keyed with pretty high degrees of specificity, or even have command words. There are probably crypto-esque schemes for using arcane mark to prove identity.


Divination: Most divination is pretty vague at least, but Scrying is problematic. The main upside (downside?) is that it only lasts ~10 minutes so timing it would be hard, and I don't think having a room made to be immune to it is unreasonable. At a minimum I think it shouldn't allow you to read anything though (too blurry). Detect Thoughts is also not great.

detect thoughts has to be cast in the same room as your target and has both verbal and somantic components. Since it doesn't give any actual surface thoughts until the third round, you probably can't get anything out of anyone who doesn't basically let you.

scrying only works if you have at least some connection to your target. It doesn't let you scry on "the dude who did the thing" unless you have some idea who that dude is (though I would probably lay down some clearer guidelines before the game if you're going into detail like this).


Teleportation: Greater Teleport (and it's more random cousin Teleport) is the big thorn in my side. It gives near unprecedented access everywhere, allows for easy escape, and removes any distance required for information to travel. My only thoughts are maybe allowing anyone you're teleporting in on a Will save, and adding a casting time.

It gives you access to everywhere. But it doesn't tell you where to go. And generally speaking dropping into the middle of your enemy's fortress isn't really a great plan. And forbiddance exists. As do contingent spells, illusions, and anticipate teleport all of which can punish or mitigate teleportation to one degree or another. It also doesn't work across planar boundaries.

[Venger]

If you’re main challenges are monsters and obstacles Charm spells are pretty worthlesss, but if your challenges are to convince someone of something or get information from them Charm spells are like Save-or-die spells in that they could instantly end an encounter (hypothetically).

Yeah, but if whoever’s warping in is just stronger than you there’s not a lot you can do even with a warning (except maybe warp away but teleport tag just seems silly).

if you want your party to win someone over, then like with the above examples, it should be someone who's got protections from charm.

sure, but your protections there are foiling scrying by providing fake info, not by stopping them from teleporting in.

[Fizban]

Thanks, I will definitely keep everything in mind. (Though uh, I don't know where you got those stats for Geas.)
Geas has no save, but unlike the ever increasing ability score penalty of Lesser Geas (until the duration runs out), the full Geas only deals 3d6 damage each day. Assuming it all hits at once, if you have at least 9 hit points then it can never drop you below -9, and thus cannot kill you as long as you have someone waiting to heal the damage. You're also sickened forever, but plenty of people have pushed through horrible illnesses for years and accomplished things with their lives. An Important Person in DnD easily has access to 1st level casters even if they can't break the Geas.

Lesser Geas won't kill you, but it will cripple you pretty bad. Geas will only kill you if you're weak and have no resources, but the penalty is much less.

I searched for posts where I used the word "lead," and "teleport" and I believe the most recent divination/teleportation threads were:
Divination-gripe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?538559-Divination-gripe)
Security for the general public (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?539357-Security-in-a-world-of-scry-and-die-for-the-general-public)
Mundane means of blocking teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?540790-Mundane-means-of-blocking-teleport)


Proving identity isn't difficult. Magic items can be keyed with pretty high degrees of specificity, or even have command words. There are probably crypto-esque schemes for using arcane mark to prove identity.
At the greatest extreme, there are spells and magic items and even craftable creatures that only ever respond to their creator as an intrinsic property. Only the caster of an Arcane Lock can bypass it effortlessly, period.

[ayvango]

It gives near unprecedented access everywhere
There is precedents in real life. Computer security works like that: distance doesn't matter. World consists of interconnected fortified citadels. And even if you penetrate enemy defence you would face number of isolated segments that has their own security too.

I'm not sure how to represent IT security world in game mechanics, but if you could, then you get pretty sensible system which is easy to comprehend for modern human.

I could guess that there should be way for noblemen to establish interplanar borders in their respective domains. Threat it as separate planes, so teleport could not work.

Wish would remain useful for penetrating even interplanar borders, but it is available only for highest level casters and costs a lot.

[King of Nowhere]

Hey guys, recently I've been working on a campaign where the main conflict is more political than dungeon crawly, and PCs have to work their way up from dealing with gangs to nobles to eventually kings and queens and entire empires. With "class by population" rules (and in order for PCs to have proper challenges at each level) this means an empire probably has a handful of level 13~16 casters (and one or two max level casters) they can use, organizations have a few level ~11 casters, and even smaller time nobles being able to hire one or two level 7~9 casters.

The problem is some of the spells each faction (and the PCs) gain access too are just bonkers in a political intrigue type campaign. Getting off Dominate Person on a king would be crazy, and Greater Teleport gives any assassin or spy pretty much free reign of the world.

I could just have everyone of any importance constantly ward everything they do, but by the time I reach the point where everyone carries a pendant that makes them immune to Charm, Divination, and Teleportation, I think I'd rather just say certain spells don't exist. Saves might make things okay (since at least everyone would be equal-or-higher level) but all it might take is one failed saves for things to go horribly wrong.

I've identified a few main problem areas:

Charm: Most spells are vaguely worded enough to leave at least some wiggle room, but Dominate Person and Geas are pretty big. Dominate Person's main weakness at least is a low Sense Motive DC, but Geas is crazy.

Disguise: A good impersonation could let you get away with a lot, though allowing additional saves or bonuses against more dramatic demands might be enough. I also considered having it so if someone sees through it and points it out, everyone believes them.

Divination: Most divination is pretty vague at least, but Scrying is problematic. The main upside (downside?) is that it only lasts ~10 minutes so timing it would be hard, and I don't think having a room made to be immune to it is unreasonable. At a minimum I think it shouldn't allow you to read anything though (too blurry). Detect Thoughts is also not great.

Teleportation: Greater Teleport (and it's more random cousin Teleport) is the big thorn in my side. It gives near unprecedented access everywhere, allows for easy escape, and removes any distance required for information to travel. My only thoughts are maybe allowing anyone you're teleporting in on a Will save, and adding a casting time.

Honestly changing the spells might be a fool's errand (especially if I want a universal, easy fix) but I was at least curious if anyone else has had similar thoughts or dealings.

I run a campaign with the same premises, and I considered the same problems.

charms: everyone important must be shielded from them. It's not a case of jerk DM preventing players from using stuff, it's simply the minimum requirement to survive as a leader in such a world. An getting protection from evil is cheap, every major organization won't have any problem getting it. those spells still work on minions, anyway. Though be wary that in a world were those spells are a fact, people who suddenly feel friendly towards a known enemy may realize what's happening.
Also, since nobody likes the idea of someone raping their minds and forcing them to betray their loved ones, pretty much everybody frowns on domination. It's the kind of thing that will bring retaliation not only from the victim, but also by other, neutral organizations who are simply afraid you may use it against them later.

disguise: it's a recurring theme of my campaign, and one I like having introduced, that powerful magic can be blocked by other powerful magic, while simple mundane means are sometimes much harder to counter. Yes, disguise can do a lot in the right hands, but it's not campaign breaking. Someone disguised as the king can get away with giving a few orders, but thhe real king will come to unmask him. Or divination will, after a while. So if your pplayers manage to concoct a good plan to switch places with a king, you should let them have their cake and reap some benefits before throwing in a wrench.

divination: it's an important part of the world. scry-proof rooms are perfectly fine, and people know of divinations and will try to fin ways to hide stuff from it. You should figure out exactly what divination can or cannot do, and create your organizations accordingly.
One part I introduced in my world is working by proxy. If you do stuff yourself, you can be divined. If you pay someone to pay someone else to do it, then divination can only tell who did it. That guy, even if captured and dominated, ccan only say that somebody he didn't knew, and who possibly was disguised, gave him money to do it. Nobody can figure out who sent the order first.
There was also the case of a villain wanting do do action X who paid a caster to dominate him and force him to do action X, so that he could swear on the chair of truth that he undertook the action under the effect of domination. That was a nice reveal when the players figured it out, and it was something I could only set up because I made clear, in advance, how divination worked.
Basically, divination is a tool. Have everybody in your world use it creatively.
Notice that I don't know well the divination spells. I simply established roughly what can be divined and what cannot. Detect thoughts is actually a problem because I didn't knew of it earlier and I made a few plots that could be foiled by it; I'm considering if I should remove it or simply making it of much higher level.

teleportation: teleportation is your friend here. Everyone powerful will have on him a tattoo that acts as a scroll of teleport, so that he has one more line of retreat. A king should spend most of his time in a warded room, but even if he does not, in case of attack he can teleport out. Or he can have a loyal wizard bodyguard always touching him with a contingency to dimension door away in case the wizard or the king are going to be hit by a dimensional anchor. teleport has more uses defensively than offensively.

I add resurrection here: they also can be your friends. Sure, you can manage to kill a king if you try hard enough, but for 30000 gp they will bring him back, so why bother? There are soul bindings and such, but again, those are big guns and will get you hated by everyone. Nobody wants to spend eternity trapped in a gem, and so everybody of high level will feel threatened by the possibility. Doing something like that in my campaign world is akin to using nukes: you can expect retaliation in kind from pretty much everyone else.

[Fizban]

There is precedents in real life. Computer security works like that: distance doesn't matter. World consists of interconnected fortified citadels. And even if you penetrate enemy defence you would face number of isolated segments that has their own security too.

I'm not sure how to represent IT security world in game mechanics, but if you could, then you get pretty sensible system which is easy to comprehend for modern human.
Doesn't seem that hard: from the mundane teleport counter thread there are several ideas for soft-locking certain areas, simple lack of detailed information makes it impossible to teleport somewhere and there's plenty of ways to restrict information, just mark out your sectors and layers. You can get it out of a person, the same way the most effective hacking is just getting someone to tell you the password, or use Dimension Door to hit relative positions if you get close and make a good guess (similar to getting close and plugging in a usb drive or packet sniffing un-encrypted passwords). The core areas equivalent to isolated computer networks are those under Forbiddance or other dimensional blocking magic, breached only by on-site destruction or Wish.

[17arkOracle]

There is precedents in real life. Computer security works like that: distance doesn't matter. World consists of interconnected fortified citadels. And even if you penetrate enemy defence you would face number of isolated segments that has their own security too.

I'm not sure how to represent IT security world in game mechanics, but if you could, then you get pretty sensible system which is easy to comprehend for modern human.


Doesn't seem that hard: from the mundane teleport counter thread there are several ideas for soft-locking certain areas, simple lack of detailed information makes it impossible to teleport somewhere and there's plenty of ways to restrict information, just mark out your sectors and layers. You can get it out of a person, the same way the most effective hacking is just getting someone to tell you the password, or use Dimension Door to hit relative positions if you get close and make a good guess (similar to getting close and plugging in a usb drive or packet sniffing un-encrypted passwords). The core areas equivalent to isolated computer networks are those under Forbiddance or other dimensional blocking magic, breached only by on-site destruction or Wish.

I do like putting it into the context of the real world, though hacking strikes me as closer to scrying. With hacking and scrying there are more mundane ways to just outright hide what people are after, but with teleportation it's harder to avoid being in physical locations. And you can do more once you've teleported. I get the whole attack counter-defense thing though.


divination: it's an important part of the world. scry-proof rooms are perfectly fine, and people know of divinations and will try to fin ways to hide stuff from it. You should figure out exactly what divination can or cannot do, and create your organizations accordingly.
One part I introduced in my world is working by proxy. If you do stuff yourself, you can be divined. If you pay someone to pay someone else to do it, then divination can only tell who did it. That guy, even if captured and dominated, ccan only say that somebody he didn't knew, and who possibly was disguised, gave him money to do it. Nobody can figure out who sent the order first.
There was also the case of a villain wanting do do action X who paid a caster to dominate him and force him to do action X, so that he could swear on the chair of truth that he undertook the action under the effect of domination. That was a nice reveal when the players figured it out, and it was something I could only set up because I made clear, in advance, how divination worked.
Basically, divination is a tool. Have everybody in your world use it creatively.
Notice that I don't know well the divination spells. I simply established roughly what can be divined and what cannot. Detect thoughts is actually a problem because I didn't knew of it earlier and I made a few plots that could be foiled by it; I'm considering if I should remove it or simply making it of much higher level.

Oo, I hadn't considered how'd people being using proxies all the time. It also maintains the focus on societal hierarchy which I like. (If it's any consolation, Detect Thoughts being lower level does make it easier to save against.)


teleportation: teleportation is your friend here. Everyone powerful will have on him a tattoo that acts as a scroll of teleport, so that he has one more line of retreat. A king should spend most of his time in a warded room, but even if he does not, in case of attack he can teleport out. Or he can have a loyal wizard bodyguard always touching him with a contingency to dimension door away in case the wizard or the king are going to be hit by a dimensional anchor. teleport has more uses defensively than offensively.

I think half my fear is it being used defensively rather than offensively, though. Even barring "hit and run" tactics, it feels kinda narratively unsatisfying for a conflict to be resolved by the losing party warping away.


I add resurrection here: they also can be your friends. Sure, you can manage to kill a king if you try hard enough, but for 30000 gp they will bring him back, so why bother? There are soul bindings and such, but again, those are big guns and will get you hated by everyone. Nobody wants to spend eternity trapped in a gem, and so everybody of high level will feel threatened by the possibility. Doing something like that in my campaign world is akin to using nukes: you can expect retaliation in kind from pretty much everyone else.

Resurrection actually is something I considered! In the end though I just decided to (more or less) blanket ban it. Unlike the other spells I didn't really feel I was taking any cool thing away (my players never seem to mind just rerolling), and it really does just seem to have a lot of narrative killing potential.

[King of Nowhere]

I think half my fear is it [teleportation] being used defensively rather than offensively, though. Even barring "hit and run" tactics, it feels kinda narratively unsatisfying for a conflict to be resolved by the losing party warping away.



Upon learning 4th level spells, both my party casters took dimensional anchor as their first choice :smallsmile:

Well, it works for me, because it gives the defender an advantage - if you want him to not escape, you must waste an action - and it's also one of the few ways to end a fight non-lethally, which allows for recurring villains (really, setting up a 16th level enemy wizard took hours; it would be a tragedy if I got to use him only once). It also gives the party an easy way out if the fight is going poorly. And it also sets up a greater reward for the party: they are supposed to win a fight, but that way they only get to keep high level loot if they successfully prevent escape too. Otherwise I'd have to give them high level loot at every fight, and they are already bristling with +5 stuff at level 12.

but if it doesn't work for you, feel free to change it. it's your world, after all.

P.S. you should instead ban permanent teleport circle, otherwise they have world-changing effects on trade and you end up in a tippyverse.