Unique Liches

[Promethean]

Liches are basically undead skeletons/zombies with their soul saved in a jar somewhere and some better immunities/DR/extra goodies right? Would it be possible for a prospective necromancer to change-up some elements of their lichdom ritual to animate a something other than a skeleton/zombie, like having a ghoul/mummy for a mid to High level encounter or even a Devourer Lich encounter for a High level party.

I assume there's more than one version of the lichdom ritual, I've heard there are many sources saying different things on the subject.

[Nifft]

The key thing is that a Lich is not just a skeleton with a jar, but rather every single Lich is a high-level spellcaster (who is also a skeleton with a jar).

So yeah, you could do a mummy or ghost or whatever instead of a skeleton. Break rules, it's not a problem.

But the main variety that you can use is picking the unique spell list for each lich.

Spells are powerful things; unique or special spells are extra-powerful.

[ViperMagnum357]

Liches are basically undead skeletons/zombies with their soul saved in a jar somewhere and some better immunities/DR/extra goodies right? Would it be possible for a prospective necromancer to change-up some elements of their lichdom ritual to animate a something other than a skeleton/zombie, like having a ghoul/mummy for a mid to High level encounter or even a Devourer Lich encounter for a High level party.

I assume there's more than one version of the lichdom ritual, I've heard there are many sources saying different things on the subject.

Liches are far more than mere undead, let alone unintelligent undead-at a minimum, they are a powerful spellcaster. A lich has found a 100% reliable way to make themselves undead without a sponsor/ally or the frequent associated downsides, like Vampire blood thirst or the horror hunger of a ghoul. They have found a way to cheat undeath itself, able to return on their own at full power, still undead, normally without aid, and survive what would perma-kill essentially any other undead-reduced to 0 hit points, greater turning, disintegration, whatever.

As for more powerful minions-many of the stronger undead have rituals to create them, so having a lich-already a solid spellcaster-learn them is no big obstacle. You can also dig through sourcebooks for ways to improve undead minions without adding class levels or RHD-IE, the Ankholian Undead template from the Revised Bestiary of Krynn can be added to any undead and give them a solid power boost.

[Promethean]

I realize that Liches are immortal spell-casters. I've used this same arguement to pointout how vampires are ridiculously over-LAed.

I was Sort of looking for unique villian ideas. Even if the making a ghoul, mummy, devourer, or what have you lich just makes a lich with higher dex/str and a nifty hat, it still Sounds like an awesome encounter.:smalltongue:

[flappeercraft]

I recall hearing of a vampiric version of lichdom although I never found it myself.

[johnbragg]

I realize that Liches are immortal spell-casters. I've used this same arguement to pointout how vampires are ridiculously over-LAed.

I was Sort of looking for unique villian ideas. Even if the making a ghoul, mummy, devourer, or what have you lich just makes a lich with higher dex/str and a nifty hat, it still Sounds like an awesome encounter.:smalltongue:

OK, let's get nuts.

BLUF: Lich conjures/creates host bodies to modified magic jar into. Go nuts building bodies for the villain to "ride around in." Either stack templates carefully to comply with RAW about how the particular templates can stack, or just handwave and say "if your PC were rolling with 30 INT and unlimited time, he/she could figure out how to make this rules-legal too."


Larry the Lich's got time on his hands. In his divinations, he detects faint emanations of stories from another realm of Mechs. He decides do to that.

Builds himself a Mithral_Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm) which he astral projections himself into. (Or maybe a homebrewed magic jar variant.)

Larry's got access to limited wish and wish, as well as genesis to create demiplanes for fast-time shenanigans. He's also got for-e-ver to craft stuff.

So it's entirely fair for him to research centuries-long rituals to add whatever ridiculous templates you like onto a humanoid body that he wished for. Start with half-fiendish (flight, claw-claw-bite routine), primordial (adds SR = CR+6), and oh, let's say Force creature (half damage from any attack that does hit point damage, some other stuff.)

[Promethean]

OK, let's get nuts.

BLUF: Lich conjures/creates host bodies to modified magic jar into. Go nuts building bodies for the villain to "ride around in." Either stack templates carefully to comply with RAW about how the particular templates can stack, or just handwave and say "if your PC were rolling with 30 INT and unlimited time, he/she could figure out how to make this rules-legal too."


Larry the Lich's got time on his hands. In his divinations, he detects faint emanations of stories from another realm of Mechs. He decides do to that.

Builds himself a Mithral_Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm) which he astral projections himself into. (Or maybe a homebrewed magic jar variant.)

Larry's got access to limited wish and wish, as well as genesis to create demiplanes for fast-time shenanigans. He's also got for-e-ver to craft stuff.

So it's entirely fair for him to research centuries-long rituals to add whatever ridiculous templates you like onto a humanoid body that he wished for. Start with half-fiendish (flight, claw-claw-bite routine), primordial (adds SR = CR+6), and oh, let's say Force creature (half damage from any attack that does hit point damage, some other stuff.)

I think I'll steel the "magic jars into new undead bodies" thing. It reminds me of the older lich fluff of needing dead bodies near their phylactery to respawn. It was also a great reason for why a lich would just randomly go out and kill a villager or two, they probably had a bad run-in with adventurer types and was running low on "Empty Vessels".

If said lich was also using magic to turn those bodies into sets of "battle attire" all the more reason for a party to attack them.:smallwink:

[Albions_Angel]

For me, what makes liches unique is the story that goes with them.

Liches are high level enemies. But you dont have to meet them at high level. A low level party probably isnt worth the spell slot it would take to destroy them. That allows for lots of interactions to build character. Also send lower level generals or helpers of the lich to establish backstory.

Liches are evil, and must commit unspeakably evil acts to become one. But... Well, even Paladins have ACFs and prestige classes that make it easier to commit evil acts in the name of the greater good... So a "good" lich, either actually helpful, or the old trope of doing something evil for misguided reasons is good fun.

As for "standard" liches, why are they evil? Do they want to take over the world? Or are they just not very nice? Theres probably a lot of liches that just checked out and live in their own demiplanes. Maybe one comes back to see how things have changed. Perhaps he was a Neanderthal Druid or Spirit Shaman? If clerics can become liches, why not other divine casters, especially ancient ones where morals might not be so clearly defined. Hes come back to check on evolution, and sees all other races as little more than specimens. The undead "king" cursed for eternity is a good trope too.

Speaking of "standard" and "non-standard" liches, theres the Dry Lich from Sandstorm. They can be VERY fun. They have essentially 5 phylacteries, and I believe its ambiguous as to where or how they reform once killed. Some say they reform where the heart is, others where the largest collection is, yet more have said its the average position. I took the view that they can either pick which jar to reform at, or they reform at a random one. That allows for some VERY interesting encounters and plot hooks. In my world, Dry Liches are a relic from a bygone desert civilization, and another has grown up on top (think Ancient Egypt followed by the Ottoman Empire). Treasure hunters raid the old tombs and the jars are collectible.

Most of my campaigns take place in the frozen north of my world, so I had a local lord into an antique collector. The jar was packed up in a ship with some mummified creatures (zombie asherati), but the ship gets wrecked. Party goes out, collects jar, wakes "mummies", battles way out while ship sinks. Turn jar over to collector and then forget all about it. 3 levels later, they are traveling nearby and hear that he has disappeared, so they go and investigate and the jar is gone, the house is full of sand, water barrels boiled dry, and as they piece it all together (sometimes with the help of a lone servant who has the Wasting disease), they are attacked by the family who are now all dustform creatures. The Lich's aim is to make a new kingdom for himself, and this northland, with a bit of teraforming, will do nicely.

So you have a bunch of characters geared out for the icy north, as well as the local population of the same, suddenly dealing with drought and sandstorms and mummies and dehydration.

Come up with a strong story. Make your lich a character you want to play. Then you will have a unique lich.

[Florian]

Liches are basically undead skeletons/zombies with their soul saved in a jar somewhere and some better immunities/DR/extra goodies right?

Ah, no. Liches are powerful mortal spellcasters that managed some sort of immortality by turning themselves undead. The "skeleton" / "zombie" variety are only those that neglect their physical body because it´s unneeded and will regrow when destroyed. OTOH, the basic Lich Ritual just turns you into an undead creature with the body not having any real extra benefits.

Liches that care use Appearance of Life, Preserve Corpse or the Blush of Youth ritual to keep their bodies in their pre-undead state.

(The old AD&D Van Rechtens Guide to Liches is a pretty cool resource on the topic)

[ShurikVch]

Liches are basically undead skeletons/zombies with their soul saved in a jar somewhere and some better immunities/DR/extra goodies right?In fact, "skeletal lich" is a bit of cliche
For example, Aumvor the Undying (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Aumvor) is anything but skeletal:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/c/c0/Aumvor%2C_The_Undying.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/350?cb=20110422204311

Actually, lich after the transformation looks like in life:
Sapphiraktar the Blue (LE male ancient blue dracolich) was made into a dracolich 300 years ago. For reasons of draconic vanity, he carefully maintains his appearance through magic, and therefore is indistinguishable from a living dragon
Dallia Thistledown is the nicest little halfling you'd ever want to meet. She's kind and friendly, always greeting friends and strangers alike with a beaming smile and freshly baked cinnamon rolls or tea cakes. She's nice to animals and great with children. In fact, in the two years she’s worked in the castle kitchens, she’s never uttered a cross word to anyone. Her songs brighten the mood of anyone hearing them.
The halfling who was Dallia Thistledown actually died three years ago when she completed the process that transformed her into a lich. Now she steals royal secrets for the kingdom's enemies while posing as a humble cook. Of course, she's only doing that to gain enough wealth and power to take over a kingdom for her own.
A lifelong worshiper of Vecna, God of Secrets, Durak knew from an early age that he wanted to achieve eternal existence as an undead being. He would have preferred vampirism, but he didn't trust in his ability to escape the control of any vampire that spawned him. He amassed power and knowledge quickly, enabling him to achieve lichdom at the age of only 28.
Durak is now a relatively young lich, having experienced the transformation mere months ago. He appears mostly human, if a bit pale and sunken-eyed. He still venerates Vecna, and is busy amassing an army of undead minionsYes, after the transformation, decay starts, but it's going very very slow: because lich's body is full of negative energy, neither carrion insects, nor putrefying bacteria are able to affect it - decay happens strictly from the entropic properties of Negative Energy, and may take up to millenia
(It's weird Xycon gone "bare bones" after mere fifty years...)



I think I'll steel the "magic jars into new undead bodies" thing. It reminds me of the older lich fluff of needing dead bodies near their phylactery to respawn. It was also a great reason for why a lich would just randomly go out and kill a villager or two, they probably had a bad run-in with adventurer types and was running low on "Empty Vessels". Note: it's exactly how Dracoliches work

[icefractal]

Actually, lich after the transformation looks like in life:Yes, after the transformation, decay starts, but it's going very very slow: because lich's body is full of negative energy, neither carrion insects, nor putrefying bacteria are able to affect it - decay happens strictly from the entropic properties of Negative Energy, and may take up to millenia
(It's weird Xycon gone "bare bones" after mere fifty years...)IIRC, Xykon ripped off his skin immediately after / as part of becoming a Lich. But I think even if going by the rules, that could easily happen, as Xykon doesn't strike me as the type of be very cautious of his body when he knows he's going to regenerate. So a few fireballs, a couple times he decides to just stroll through a swinging blade trap because he knows he'll be fine, and the flesh would be in pretty poor shape.

Also, it's not specified anywhere AFIAK, but my assumption would be that if you regenerate from being destroyed, you come back as a skeleton. That's the core form of the Lich, the flesh is just temporary clothing.

[Scots Dragon]

IIRC, Xykon ripped off his skin immediately after / as part of becoming a Lich.

As I recall from reading Start of Darkness, Xykon immediately became skeletal.


In fact, "skeletal lich" is a bit of cliche
For example, Aumvor the Undying (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Aumvor) is anything but skeletal:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/c/c0/Aumvor%2C_The_Undying.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/350?cb=20110422204311

Also from the Forgotten Realms, although the D&D 3E artists did not get the memo, the zulkir of necromancy Szass Tam still looks reasonably alive to the point that he basically just looks like your standard gaunt evil wizard.


Liches are evil, and must commit unspeakably evil acts to become one. But... Well, even Paladins have ACFs and prestige classes that make it easier to commit evil acts in the name of the greater good... So a "good" lich, either actually helpful, or the old trope of doing something evil for misguided reasons is good fun.

There are also actually rules for good liches in the Forgotten Realms, and good lich-like creatures in Eberron by way of the deathless type. Interestingly enough both the Realms and Eberron cottoned on to the same idea of one of the most popular types of liches being elves who had given over to undeath to serve as eternal repositories of knowledge and guardians of old secrets, almost always of lawful good alignment.

There are also archliches in the Forgotten Realms, non-evil human liches who function mostly as normal but are immune to turning and in fact possess the ability to turn undead themselves.

[ShurikVch]

There are also actually rules for good liches in the Forgotten Realms, and good lich-like creatures in Eberron by way of the deathless type. Interestingly enough both the Realms and Eberron cottoned on to the same idea of one of the most popular types of liches being elves who had given over to undeath to serve as eternal repositories of knowledge and guardians of old secrets, almost always of lawful good alignment.

There are also archliches in the Forgotten Realms, non-evil human liches who function mostly as normal but are immune to turning and in fact possess the ability to turn undead themselves.Also, there is the Good Lich variant in Libris Mortis

[frogglesmash]

If you check my sig there's a list that you may find interesting.

[Albions_Angel]

If you check my sig there's a list that you may find interesting.

This is more a general note, rather than a Lich based reply, but if the Dry Lich is Sandstorms "Fire-type Lich" then Winterhaunt of Iborighu is Frostburns "Ice-type 'Lich'". While not an actual lich, or even undead, the capstone ability and general class progressions is pretty obviously just an icy version of the Walker in the Waste class and Dry Lich capstone. It would be VERY easy to refluff one as a Lich, even if not actually undead.

[frogglesmash]

This is more a general note, rather than a Lich based reply, but if the Dry Lich is Sandstorms "Fire-type Lich" then Winterhaunt of Iborighu is Frostburns "Ice-type 'Lich'". While not an actual lich, or even undead, the capstone ability and general class progressions is pretty obviously just an icy version of the Walker in the Waste class and Dry Lich capstone. It would be VERY easy to refluff one as a Lich, even if not actually undead.

I'll check it out, there's also a couple homebrew candidates that I've been meaning to add.

[Promethean]

In fact, "skeletal lich" is a bit of cliche
For example, Aumvor the Undying (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Aumvor) is anything but skeletal:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/c/c0/Aumvor%2C_The_Undying.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/350?cb=20110422204311


wasn't he also feeding off the life force of hundred of people, turning them into living zombies? That may be having an effect, but their's also spells like Gentle Repose that preserve corpse-flesh. It may nt be something inherent to lichdom to not decay(Or it could, I've heard of three completely different rituals for lichdom. So it may just depend on the ritual you use and how well you perform it.)

[Telonius]

Hmmm, maybe we could go completely nuts. Lichfiend, Fiend of Possession, Ghost - based. You could have some serious fun messing with Paladins. "I am an intelligent Holy Avenger! Please heed my advice..."

[Falontani]

While it's not the best choice, a level 20 Death Master doesn't care what type you are, it just makes you into a lich at level 20 stacking the template with whatever else you have. This means you could become a vampiric lich, or ghoulish lich, or even an Awakened Zombie Nightmare Lich. I think it would be pretty cool to be a Grig Lich that was driven insane.

[Promethean]

While it's not the best choice, a level 20 Death Delver doesn't care what type you are, it just makes you into a lich at level 20 stacking the template with whatever else you have. This means you could become a vampiric lich, or ghoulish lich, or even an Awakened Zombie Nightmare Lich. I think it would be pretty cool to be a Grig Lich that was driven insane.

You mean dread necromancer? Death delver is a 10 level PRC from heroes of horror that deals with defying death.

[ShurikVch]

You mean dread necromancer? Death delver is a 10 level PRC from heroes of horror that deals with defying death.Actually, Death Master (from Dragon Compendium)

[Falontani]

You mean dread necromancer? Death delver is a 10 level PRC from heroes of horror that deals with defying death.


Actually, Death Master (from Dragon Compendium)

My bad, I've edited my original post to have the correct name, Death Master is what I was thinking of when I typed Death Delver.

[Afgncaap5]

I'm gonna side with Albions Angel: the most interesting liches are the ones with good stories.

I've not used it yet, but I've got a lich ready for an Eberron campaign who's a kind of Scrooge-like moneylender and misery-maker, a gnome who's used his pull with House Sivis to create a web of impenetrable contracts to create a life of perpetual and inescapable toil and financial misery for anyone living in three villages. His lichdom is sustained by the suffering of those in the cities (and while the money's not particularly "necessary" for his unlife, it's definitely making said unlife more fun.) Effectively, he has three contracts that act as his phylactery, but only one exists at any given time; destroying one prompts the terms of one of the other two to be fulfilled for the other contract to be rewritten, thanks to a powerful ritual he used with his dragonmark during life. To defeat him, players would have to find some way to satisfy the contracts (or at least the currently existing contract) so that they/it can be destroyed without being recreated.

Most of this came from the idea of typical phylacteries being boxes that contained scripts of paper (usually prayers or arcane formulae) that one wears around the forehead, coupled with musings on the implications of the Zork game-world spell Zemdor (which turns originals into triplicate; previously, the only significant usage Zemdor gained in Zork lore was the one time it was sought by a civil servant who promptly mixed it up with the Zimbor spell (which turns one big city into lots of tiny little ashes; the city of Mareilon never recovered.))

[Promethean]

I've not used it yet, but I've got a lich ready for an Eberron campaign who's a kind of Scrooge-like moneylender and misery-maker, a gnome who's used his pull with House Sivis to create a web of impenetrable contracts to create a life of perpetual and inescapable toil and financial misery for anyone living in three villages. His lichdom is sustained by the suffering of those in the cities (and while the money's not particularly "necessary" for his unlife, it's definitely making said unlife more fun.) Effectively, he has three contracts that act as his phylactery, but only one exists at any given time; destroying one prompts the terms of one of the other two to be fulfilled for the other contract to be rewritten, thanks to a powerful ritual he used with his dragonmark during life. To defeat him, players would have to find some way to satisfy the contracts (or at least the currently existing contract) so that they/it can be destroyed without being recreated.

Most of this came from the idea of typical phylacteries being boxes that contained scripts of paper (usually prayers or arcane formulae) that one wears around the forehead, coupled with musings on the implications of the Zork game-world spell Zemdor (which turns originals into triplicate; previously, the only significant usage Zemdor gained in Zork lore was the one time it was sought by a civil servant who promptly mixed it up with the Zimbor spell (which turns one big city into lots of tiny little ashes; the city of Mareilon never recovered.))

How is he able to have multiple phylacteries without epic magic? Or wait, is this an epic campaign?:smallconfused:

[Afgncaap5]

How is he able to have multiple phylacteries without epic magic? Or wait, is this an epic campaign?:smallconfused:

Nope! Not at all. The strange and mysterious magic of the Mark of Scribing, likely combined with some sort of eldritch machine, allowed him to fill out his phylactery in triplicate. Not RAW at all, and I'm fine with that.

[Promethean]

Nope! Not at all. The strange and mysterious magic of the Mark of Scribing, likely combined with some sort of eldritch machine, allowed him to fill out his phylactery in triplicate. Not RAW at all, and I'm fine with that.

Eh, RAW Lichdom is a scam anyway. You perform dark rituals of sacrifice, and may or may not need to constantly sacrifice innocent souls, for a magic device a decent wizard could already make themselves at 11th level with the right spells and without dead innocents.

[Afgncaap5]

Eh, RAW Lichdom is a scam anyway. You perform dark rituals of sacrifice, and may or may not need to constantly sacrifice innocent souls, for a magic device a decent wizard could already make themselves at 11th level with the right spells and without dead innocents.

Definitely. That's why I generally try to figure out a good story for it. A lich who kept pursuing darker powers in pursuit of a specific goal until they woke up one day and realized they'd crossed a point of no return is way more interesting to me than a necromancer who said "Finally, I can be a lich now! Oh, I'm gonna be soooo deeeead..."

[atemu1234]

Liches are far more than mere undead, let alone unintelligent undead-at a minimum, they are a powerful spellcaster. A lich has found a 100% reliable way to make themselves undead without a sponsor/ally or the frequent associated downsides, like Vampire blood thirst or the horror hunger of a ghoul. They have found a way to cheat undeath itself, able to return on their own at full power, still undead, normally without aid, and survive what would perma-kill essentially any other undead-reduced to 0 hit points, greater turning, disintegration, whatever.

As for more powerful minions-many of the stronger undead have rituals to create them, so having a lich-already a solid spellcaster-learn them is no big obstacle. You can also dig through sourcebooks for ways to improve undead minions without adding class levels or RHD-IE, the Ankholian Undead template from the Revised Bestiary of Krynn can be added to any undead and give them a solid power boost.

Looking over Ankholian Undead, I'm beginning to wonder how they haven't taken over Krynn yet. That template is really good, especially for only a +3 LA. Create Spawn AND a means to make your other undead more powerful? Yes please.

Yeah, you may not want to lose caster levels, but put that on a graveknight or something and ****'s gonna get outta hand really quick.

[Promethean]

Looking over Ankholian Undead, I'm beginning to wonder how they haven't taken over Krynn yet. That template is really good, especially for only a +3 LA. Create Spawn AND a means to make your other undead more powerful? Yes please.

Yeah, you may not want to lose caster levels, but put that on a graveknight or something and ****'s gonna get outta hand really quick.

I imagine theirs some fluff reason the template isn't something most intelligence undead seek and spread like wild-fire, probably involving mind control of the dragon-overlords or some demonic power.

[ShurikVch]

For non-standard Liches:

there are at least two different variants of Good Lich - no "unspeakable evil" required :smallwink:

also, it's from April 1, but still - Nijel Turnbottom (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20020401a) is the example of Neutral Lich

For Evil Liches - in the "Wells of Darkness" adventure (from the Savage Tide adventure path) we have Keepers of Ahazu:
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/39/b9/0c/39b90c43be0724f099a7a0db16495b51.jpg
Besides being Varrangoin Arcanists (thus - Magical Beasts, which usually aren't legal for Lich transformation), they also have rather unique phylactery situation - their "phylactery" is the Wells of Darkness (73rd layer of Abyss). Apparently, ro become such Lich, you should be a Binder who can bind Ahazu the Seizer

The Shackled City Adventure Path have one more variant of Lichfiend; there are some differences, but the most important - complete lack of phylactery; instead it - pact with some fiendish patron, who would restore destroyed Lichfiend as long as need his service



Eh, RAW Lichdom is a scam anyway. You perform dark rituals of sacrifice, and may or may not need to constantly sacrifice innocent souls, for a magic device a decent wizard could already make themselves at 11th level with the right spells and without dead innocents.:smallconfused: Which "magic device" you mean?

[Promethean]

...:smallconfused: Which "magic device" you mean?

If we're going off the 1-3e rather than the 3.5 liches(liches that required a dead body near their phylactery to inhabit when they kick the bucket), It's actually very possible for a wizard to replicate a phylactery with just the spells available at 11th level(which is also coincidentally the level needed to make a phylactery). The spells needed would be animate dead, magic jar, teleport, and contingency. The wizard can then construct a magical device that magic jars the caster, casts contingency: death Teleport directly on the separated soul, and animates dead on a nearby corpse for the wayward soul to inhabit. It would then reset like a magical trap to repeat the process over again. The only weaknesses in the design is the duration of Magic jar and contingency, the fact the contingency will fail in an anti-magic field(there could be contention on whether or not having the spell on the mage's soul rather than their body prevents line of effect for dispel), and that the new "Lich" is "just" a skeleton/zombie with a high level casting class level. These could almost all be solved with "Wish" via ring of three wishes, scrolls, or a dc 15 knowledge religion roll(pazuzu).

This is where the caveat is, in 3e also released the "Book of Vile Darkness" which in one section details Rituals of Sacrice, long rituals that ivolved sacrificing one or more victims of preferably good alignment(sound familiar?) that ended in a knowledge religion roll to determine the benefits with a bonus based on quality of the sacrifice. One of the benefits of which is access to to Wish cast on your behalf, For Free. This would even account for more modern(3.5) liches who reform at their phylactery rather than animate a corpse(Just substitute animate dead with clone and create dead). This does not however give us why the lich "template" is so different from normal skeletons or why a Lich would need too constantly need to feed souls to it's phylactery. The answer is simple:

It's a Trick. Lichdom in whichever d&d setting you play is always made out to be some arcane ascension of power rather than the cheap magic trick described above. This is likely because the first liches appeared that way to their less talented cultists, but is now being taken advantage of by the lower powers. If say a perspective lich were to follow the rituals of sacrifice and construction of the phylactery as it was written in say a book, without understanding the meaning or the spells needed, you'd end up with a powerful(if possibly dim) individual directly imploring their powers that be(asmodeus, orcus, whatever evil deity, etc.) directly for lichdom rather than to reinforce an already made device. The prospective dark power can then take advantage of this individual, granting them a minor amount of power to maintain the lie, and tell them to send a steady supply of souls or their lichdom will fall apart. Too Easy.:smallwink:

[ShurikVch]

If we're going off the 1-3e rather than the 3.5 liches(liches that required a dead body near their phylactery to inhabit when they kick the bucket), It's actually very possible for a wizard to replicate a phylactery with just the spells available at 11th level(which is also coincidentally the level needed to make a phylactery). The spells needed would be animate dead, magic jar, teleport, and contingency. The wizard can then construct a magical device that magic jars the caster, casts contingency: death Teleport directly on the separated soul, and animates dead on a nearby corpse for the wayward soul to inhabit. It would then reset like a magical trap to repeat the process over again. The only weaknesses in the design is the duration of Magic jar and contingency, the fact the contingency will fail in an anti-magic field(there could be contention on whether or not having the spell on the mage's soul rather than their body prevents line of effect for dispel), and that the new "Lich" is "just" a skeleton/zombie with a high level casting class level. These could almost all be solved with "Wish" via ring of three wishes, scrolls, or a dc 15 knowledge religion roll(pazuzu).
Actually, it have certain other weaknesses:
Where, exactly, is said you can, actually, target a soul with a teleport?
Are you sure the soul will conveniently stay in place in order to be affected by teleportation, rather than go to the afterlife with no time to spare?
What if the reason of death will also cause entrapment of the soul?

Overall, IMHO, Lich who doesn't generating new body ex nihilo... Meh!..



Just substitute animate dead with cloneClone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm):
If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, it has died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails.:smallwink:


and create dead).Create dead??? :smallconfused:

This does not however give us why the lich "template" is so different from normal skeletonsAnd why the heck not?
Animus, Cauldron Spawn, Eye of Fear and Flame, Huecuva, and Revived Fossil are all "different from normal skeletons" too.
Is there even such thing as "normal"?..

or why a Lich would need too constantly need to feed souls to it's phylactery.Except, where exactly, it was said they, actually, need it?



The answer is simple:

It's a Trick. Lichdom in whichever d&d setting you play is always made out to be some arcane ascension of power rather than the cheap magic trick described above. This is likely because the first liches appeared that way to their less talented cultists, but is now being taken advantage of by the lower powers. If say a perspective lich were to follow the rituals of sacrifice and construction of the phylactery as it was written in say a book, without understanding the meaning or the spells needed, you'd end up with a powerful(if possibly dim) individual directly imploring their powers that be(asmodeus, orcus, whatever evil deity, etc.) directly for lichdom rather than to reinforce an already made device. The prospective dark power can then take advantage of this individual, granting them a minor amount of power to maintain the lie, and tell them to send a steady supply of souls or their lichdom will fall apart. Too Easy.:smallwink:This theory have one major caveat:
OK, "religious" liches could be deceived by their patrons. Let's conveniently ignore the fact Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm), Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm), and Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) are all mostly-arcane spell - thus, by definition, out of reach to a Cleric (let alone - Adept!), and even to an Archivist available only if he will find necessarily scrolls.
OK, Wizards and other studious folk could be misinformed by some old books. Let's pretend for an exercise they aren't possess enormous Intelligence and superb arcane lore.
But how about the Sorcerers, Bards, Warlocks and any other people who exploiting their magical ancestry? I mean - they can live long and successful life without reading a single book! Who, and how, exactly, fooled them?..

[Xuldarinar]

Can you have unique liches? Sure.

But you need to address not just what makes them different but consider why.


For example: Lets open up the Tome of Magic.

Shadowcaster liches exist, usually using a specific magic item as their phylactery and appear as either skeletons made of black ones or as emaciated beings with ash-grey parchment-like flesh. In all mechanical respects, they are just liches that use mysteries instead of spells.

One could have a lich resulting from binding magic, or have it be involved (Anima mage?). Such an individual uses a modified Vestige Phylactery to bind both their own soul as well as that of a particular vestige to it and they manifest more extreme versions of the signs and traits connected with their vestige of choice. A binder Lich who choose to entwine their soul with Dahlver-Nar, for example, might appear as a rotting figure with teeth coming out of not only their forehead but rather most of their body. If bones are exposed, the teeth seem to be growing out of them, creating an almost scaled effect. One of tenebrous, conversely, might be mistaken for a shadow or a wraith at first but in spite of appearances they are a physical entity. One of Savnok could appear as almost a blood coated and armored ghoul, with arrows sticking out of them, where as one tied to Naberius could bear some likeness to a decaying werewolf.


A lich from truespeech, consider a painspeaker or take inspiration from logokron devils. Imagine a grey twisted husk, well dressed compared to its condition. It has no tongue yet it speaks with clarity and vile purpose. An oration in a familiar language turns to that of the unknown as the room along with your body begins to rip itself apart. Somewhere inside a box lies it's desiccated tongue, inscribed with it's truename. This is, of course, if you can get over the fact Truespeaking is mechanically awful and either fix it or get used to it.

[DrMotives]

I like your ToM liches. I suppose a warlock lich would be much like a sorcerer lich, but if you could finagle a martial initiator lich, it'd be like Chakan the Forever Man. Psionic liches, meanwhile, have already been done as the Grim Psion PrC.

[Xuldarinar]

I like your ToM liches. I suppose a warlock lich would be much like a sorcerer lich, but if you could finagle a martial initiator lich, it'd be like Chakan the Forever Man. Psionic liches, meanwhile, have already been done as the Grim Psion PrC.

What about a dragonfire adept lich? A lich with strong ties to dragons and a breath weapon to back it up. Of course, what would make them different appearance wise from a Dragon Disciple turned lich save for the form of magic?

Another thing to consider is a Cerebrant or alienist lich. Cerebrants are described in dragon magazine and could be any kind of spellcaster but they come to draw magic from the far realm. Imagine a lich made of tendrils, or their flesh (or bones) drips constantly with a foul smelling clear liquid that may come to life on its own. Eyes without clear function that appear and disappear all over their forms, awkward movements that make the lich appear clumsy or even less natural but they are no less agile than they were in life. Or, perhaps they would take on some traits akin to Alhoon.

Artificers could become lich, perhaps even treading a fine line between undeath and construct.

Factotum... I don't know.

Now the jester class from Dragon Compendium.. THAT would make a scary lich.

[Promethean]

Actually, it have certain other weaknesses:
Where, exactly, is said you can, actually, target a soul with a teleport?
Are you sure the soul will conveniently stay in place in order to be affected by teleportation, rather than go to the afterlife with no time to spare?
What if the reason of death will also cause entrapment of the soul?

1. I don't see why not 2. The contingency would go off the moment of death and some resurrection spells like revivify hint that the soul lingers a bit after a person dies. 3. I imagine even a normal lich would be screwed by trap the soul


Overall, IMHO, Lich who doesn't generating new body ex nihilo... Meh!..


Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm)::smallwink:

I believe that's referring too dying of old age. You could read it too mean more than that, but that seems just as silly to me as a player reading the first level of war shaper to give themselves an infinite number of tentacle attacks


Create dead??? :smallconfused:

Create Undead. It's a requirement in a lot of magic items that create undead so it seemed like an appropriate requirement.


And why the heck not?
Animus, Cauldron Spawn, Eye of Fear and Flame, Huecuva, and Revived Fossil are all "different from normal skeletons" too.
Is there even such thing as "normal"?..
Except, where exactly, it was said they, actually, need it?

A normal skeleton as created by animate dead: Skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm)
All the ones you listed were created by rare occurrences within nature and powerful artifacts. Far above the capacity "Animate Dead"


This theory have one major caveat:
OK, "religious" liches could be deceived by their patrons. Let's conveniently ignore the fact Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm), Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm), and Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) are all mostly-arcane spell - thus, by definition, out of reach to a Cleric (let alone - Adept!), and even to an Archivist available only if he will find necessarily scrolls.
OK, Wizards and other studious folk could be misinformed by some old books. Let's pretend for an exercise they aren't possess enormous Intelligence and superb arcane lore.
But how about the Sorcerers, Bards, Warlocks and any other people who exploiting their magical ancestry? I mean - they can live long and successful life without reading a single book! Who, and how, exactly, fooled them?..

That precludes that both hyper intelligent people don't make mistakes or believe superstition(false) and that said wizard, cleric, archivist, etc. Has ancient scrolls of the very First liches detailing lichdom from before magic was changed(or other relevant occurrence in other non- forgotten realms setting to explain the mechanics changes between editions), something I find unlikely at best. I'd find it more likely that even the hidden circles of necromancers have revised versions of lichdom that rely more on the blood sacrifice portion that the spell portion(you're not getting clone at level 11), so the rituals involved will look entire legitimate(you Are Calling a Dark Power to bargain with, but what they won't is that even though that works it isn't needed at all if the wizard has "wish"). Knowledge of the lower planes, of the lords of hell and the abyss "Divinity"(or lack there of), and dark magic in particular Suppose to be rare even amoung wizards, if for no other reason than clerics and paladins burning any book containing such knowledge.

A cleric looking to become a lich also only needs to perform a ritual of sacrifice for access to "Wish"(and thus all arcane spells wish can mimic) not to mention any class following a ritual of sacrifice with the wish being "to become a lich" is easily within a demon lords power as well. So I would see that option as far more popular as well.

[Nifft]

What about a dragonfire adept lich?

Dragonwrought Kobold Dragonfire Adept 20 -> Dracolich.

That's a scary little dude.

[ShurikVch]

1. I don't see why notBecause souls aren't detailed in the RAW
We couldn't be sure how magic will (or wouldn't) interact with them
(Outside of several specific exceptions - like Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm))
2. The contingency would go off the moment of death and some resurrection spells like revivify hint that the soul lingers a bit after a person dies.OK
Revivify is a good point...

3. I imagine even a normal lich would be screwed by trap the soulactually, I meant, mainly, Thinaun weapon; but, say, being affected by spawn-creating SA would throw a monkey wrench into your poor-man's-faked-lichdom plan too
Also, with it could interfere:
Halaster's Teleport Cage
Black Labyrinth
Wild Magic zone
Certain areas - such as Library of Lore, or Silverymoon's mythal without ward token
Dimensional Lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm)
being on a plane which is completely separated from the Astral
being on any other plane than the plane where your jar is

Note: Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm) is "Range: Touch", and required to insert black onyx into target's head; Create Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm) "must be cast at night."

And, finally: Skeleton is no-good for a caster, because it's mute; and Zombie have bad Single Actions Only SQ



I believe that's referring too dying of old age.Yes, it is.
But you, actually, didn't countered it...



A normal skeleton as created by animate dead: Skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm)
All the ones you listed were created by rare occurrences within nature and powerful artifacts. Far above the capacity "Animate Dead"Just because it's the easiest way to make a "bony undead", it's in no way mean it's "normal" or "standard" in any way
In short: Liches aren't like Skeletons, because (surprise!) they aren't Skeletons :smallcool:



That precludes that both hyper intelligent people don't make mistakes or believe superstition(false) and that said wizard, cleric, archivist, etc. Has ancient scrolls of the very First liches detailing lichdom from before magic was changed(or other relevant occurrence in other non- forgotten realms setting to explain the mechanics changes between editions), something I find unlikely at best. I'd find it more likely that even the hidden circles of necromancers have revised versions of lichdom that rely more on the blood sacrifice portion that the spell portion(you're not getting clone at level 11), so the rituals involved will look entire legitimate(you Are Calling a Dark Power to bargain with, but what they won't is that even though that works it isn't needed at all if the wizard has "wish"). Knowledge of the lower planes, of the lords of hell and the abyss "Divinity"(or lack there of), and dark magic in particular Suppose to be rare even amoung wizards, if for no other reason than clerics and paladins burning any book containing such knowledge.

A cleric looking to become a lich also only needs to perform a ritual of sacrifice for access to "Wish"(and thus all arcane spells wish can mimic) not to mention any class following a ritual of sacrifice with the wish being "to become a lich" is easily within a demon lords power as well. So I would see that option as far more popular as well.By "lore", I meant the Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm) skill; if it's allow to "Understand a strange or unique magical effect", sure it should allow to not be fooled...

Also, you still not countered notion of sorcerous and eldritch Liches: sure, if they never learned magic anywhere, how the heck they should know about ritual, sacrifices, and whatnot?
Moreover: creation of the Lich phylactery is, apparently, so simple, it's actually doesn't required anything special besides Craft Wondrous Item, CL 11+, and 120,000 gp of components and 4,800 XP

[Promethean]

Because souls aren't detailed in the RAW
We couldn't be sure how magic will (or wouldn't) interact with them
(Outside of several specific exceptions - like Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm))OK
Revivify is a good point...
actually, I meant, mainly, Thinaun weapon; but, say, being affected by spawn-creating SA would throw a monkey wrench into your poor-man's-faked-lichdom plan too
Also, with it could interfere:
Halaster's Teleport Cage
Black Labyrinth
Wild Magic zone
Certain areas - such as Library of Lore, or Silverymoon's mythal without ward token
Dimensional Lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm)
being on a plane which is completely separated from the Astral
being on any other plane than the plane where your jar is

1. No, we really can't. It'd honestly be DM fiat, but in story context it makes sense to me at least. 2. Thank you. 3. All very good points. The "Magic Device" Lichdom would certainly be inferior to the more "Modern" lichdom that relies almost entirely on the powers of a dark patron. Wish is The spell that trumps all magic save epic spells and the intervention of a deity. A phylactery empowered by wish spells granted by dark patrons like Asmodeus or Orcus at their caster level(or even empowered by the alter reality power of an evil cleric's deity) would be imervious to most mortal mage's interference(save traditional destruction)


Note: Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm) is "Range: Touch", and required to insert black onyx into target's head; Create Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm) "must be cast at night."

And, finally: Skeleton is no-good for a caster, because it's mute; and Zombie have bad Single Actions Only SQ

Skeletons are mute? I've never seen any hard and fast rules for that and awakened skeletons qualify for class levels like any other intelligent undead. While RAW doesn't seem like a problem, in fluff it could mean our skeleton lich will have to saddle up to silent spell and meta-magic reducers.


Yes, it is.
But you, actually, didn't countered it...

Because you made a fair point that it could be ruled that way. I would personally rule otherwise if I was DMing, but it would depend on the DM and what would make sense for the setting.

Just because it's the easiest way to make a "bony undead", it's in no way mean it's "normal" or "standard" in any way
In short: Liches aren't like Skeletons, because (surprise!) they aren't Skeletons :smallcool:[/QUOTE]



By "lore", I meant the Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm) skill; if it's allow to "Understand a strange or unique magical effect", sure it should allow to not be fooled...

Also, you still not countered notion of sorcerous and eldritch Liches: sure, if they never learned magic anywhere, how the heck they should know about ritual, sacrifices, and whatnot?
Moreover: creation of the Lich phylactery is, apparently, so simple, it's actually doesn't required anything special besides Craft Wondrous Item, CL 11+, and 120,000 gp of components and 4,800 XP

I'd think the spellcraft/knowledge arcana DC for replicating lichdom without the documents that describe the process would be massive. Though really any high level wizard can replicate "Resurrects Endlessly" as described in lich legends with the rite spells. I'm working from the assumtion that high level spellcasters are exceedingly rare, which if not the case does disintegrate my point.

[ShurikVch]

Skeletons are mute? I've never seen any hard and fast rules for that and awakened skeletons qualify for class levels like any other intelligent undead. While RAW doesn't seem like a problem, in fluff it could mean our skeleton lich will have to saddle up to silent spell and meta-magic reducers.In case you missed it, Skeletons are lacking lungs, larynx, soft palate, tongue, and lips. With what, exactly, it will talk?
And, IMHO, it's incorrect to equalize standard and awakened Skeleton: awaken undead allow to regain Scent (despite lacking the nose!), and poison (without any venom glands!). Magic!

And one more strike vs. "standard skeleton" paradigm: various bone golems are made from the same bones as Skeletons, they aren't work like Skeletons

Also, Lich are differ from other bony undead by the possibility to become a Demilich

[InvisibleBison]

In case you missed it, Skeletons are lacking lungs, larynx, soft palate, tongue, and lips. With what, exactly, it will talk?

By this logic, skeletons can't move, because they don't have any muscles.

[Promethean]

In case you missed it, Skeletons are lacking lungs, larynx, soft palate, tongue, and lips. With what, exactly, it will talk?
And, IMHO, it's incorrect to equalize standard and awakened Skeleton: awaken undead allow to regain Scent (despite lacking the nose!), and poison (without any venom glands!). Magic!

And one more strike vs. "standard skeleton" paradigm: various bone golems are made from the same bones as Skeletons, they aren't work like Skeletons

Also, Lich are differ from other bony undead by the possibility to become a Demilich

I didn't mean to say all liches were standard skeletons, in my original post I meant that liches appeared a combo of high level caster, awakened skeleton, and some dark, undefined power with the speculation that they may be able to swap the "skeleton" portion of that equation with another undead type. For instance a normal(animate dead) skeleton has immunity to cold and DR 5/bludgeoning while a standard skeletal Lich upgrades that to include immunity to electricity, polymorphing and the DR is increased to 15/bludgeoning and good.

If we took, say, a mummy and upgrade it the same way, It'd have either DR 15/- or 15/Good(depending on ruling) and gain immunity to polymorph and electricity. Just a thought experiment at this point honestly.

[ShurikVch]

By this logic, skeletons can't move, because they don't have any muscles.Allow me to quote the SRD there:
Speed
Winged skeletons can’t use their wings to fly. If the base creature flew magically, so can the skeleton.If Skeletons are unable to fly because of missing feathers/membranes, then why they should be able to talk while lacking literally all necessarily bits?
I mean: both flying and talking are happening by physically affecting air; if one doesn't working, then why should another one be OK?

[Xuldarinar]

In case you missed it, Skeletons are lacking lungs, larynx, soft palate, tongue, and lips. With what, exactly, it will talk?
And, IMHO, it's incorrect to equalize standard and awakened Skeleton: awaken undead allow to regain Scent (despite lacking the nose!), and poison (without any venom glands!). Magic!

And one more strike vs. "standard skeleton" paradigm: various bone golems are made from the same bones as Skeletons, they aren't work like Skeletons

Also, Lich are differ from other bony undead by the possibility to become a Demilich

Skeletons also lack eyes, therefore they are blind. In fact they lack any kind of sensory organ so they shouldn't be able to hear any commands given to them, find targets, or anything. They lack ligaments so they should just fall apart.

It is all just magic.

[ShurikVch]

Skeletons also lack eyes, therefore they are blind. In fact they lack any kind of sensory organ so they shouldn't be able to hear any commands given to them, find targets, or anything. They lack ligaments so they should just fall apart.

It is all just magic.Incorrect
They're able to hear, because animate dead says:
This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.
They aren't blind, because any blinb creature in the game should be explicitly marked as blind
And they aren't fall apart, because their description doesn' says they fall apart

[Xuldarinar]

Incorrect
They're able to hear, because animate dead says:
They aren't blind, because any blinb creature in the game should be explicitly marked as blind
And they aren't fall apart, because their description doesn' says they fall apart

We could also argue that it says:

This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.


Additionally, doesn't the game in text tend to specify if a creature is unable to speak but is able to understand a language?

[atemu1234]

I almost forgot about the third party book, The Complete Guide to Liches by Goodman Games. Has a couple variant liches.

[ShurikVch]

This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.Why you underlined that part? There is no comma, so - why the separation?


Additionally, doesn't the game in text tend to specify if a creature is unable to speak but is able to understand a language?Yes.
But it isn't a text for creature, it's text for spell

Overall, D&D is definitely lacking in naturally deaf creatures.
I mean - those with the Incorporeal subtype are literally can't be touched by the air, but hearing just fine somehow...
At a cursory glance, only Vivisectors (from MM5) are deaf, but they have Deaf (Ex) and auto-failing all Listen checks

[Xuldarinar]

Why you underlined that part? There is no comma, so - why the separation?

Yes.
But it isn't a text for creature, it's text for spell

Overall, D&D is definitely lacking in naturally deaf creatures.
I mean - those with the Incorporeal subtype are literally can't be touched by the air, but hearing just fine somehow...
At a cursory glance, only Vivisectors (from MM5) are deaf, but they have Deaf (Ex) and auto-failing all Listen checks

i don't think for a second it is that way, as most of this, but someone could still make an argument for that part being its own item.


Anyways, you are right, it is text for a spell. That spell refers to a creature (or more accurately a template), and that template does not address speech. Any rationalization that dictates they are utterly incapable of speech is correct, but also lends itself to any other function of a skeleton. Now, i will argue that a skeleton won't usually talk, but that is because they are mindless and not because an animated skeleton is any less capable of speech than any other kind of undead.

Though it is not a skeleton, I will present this: Skull Watch. This spell animates a skull and allows it to, in response to someone coming into its sight, shriek. Granted it is animated to do specifically that, but it still utterly lacks any of the equipment necessary to produce such a sound.