FlWiPig=Stupid

[UserClone]

I imagine that's what many of the posters here may think when I ask the following: Er...what's a Pun-Pun?

[Tyger]

Not stupid at all, just very specialized (i.e. gamer geeks like us who hang out in the threads!) knowledge.

Pun-Pun is a theoretical exercise in character optimization that demonstrates how the system can be broken. I believe its a third level Dragon-blooded kobold sorcerer with a particular kind of familiar. Via some slightly cheesy, but within the rules, tactics, you can become infinitely powerful (literally god destroying powerful) in one round. Its a relatively involved process, but it works.

Its generally used as an example of either a) rules are not perfect or b) utter cheese (like stinky, very ripe gouda) that can be pulled off by people with an excellent grasp of the rules and the relations between all the various options.

[mudbunny]

Not stupid at all, just very specialized (i.e. gamer geeks like us who hang out in the threads!) knowledge.

Pun-Pun is a theoretical exercise in character optimization that demonstrates how the system can be broken. I believe its a third level Dragon-blooded kobold sorcerer with a particular kind of familiar. Via some slightly cheesy, but within the rules, tactics, you can become infinitely powerful (literally god destroying powerful) in one round. Its a relatively involved process, but it works.

Its generally used as an example of either a) rules are not perfect or b) utter cheese (like stinky, very ripe gouda) that can be pulled off by people with an excellent grasp of the rules and the relations between all the various options.

I think it also allows some GM convincing to allow some of the options. Or at least the version of pun-pun that I read did.

[UserClone]

Could you link me that version?

[Ikkitosen]

AFAIK the only DM help it needs (beyond, you know, existence) is the presence of a Sarruhk (sp?), which is a FR-specific monster with a certain special ability that involves copying and improveing upon the abilities of other creatures.

[mudbunny]

Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) is the latest version. It doesn't involve any GM convincing, so it has probably been updated due to the number of splatbooks that have been released since I last looked at the build. (A couple of years ago)

[UserClone]

If you want to talk about stinky cheese, let's talk about Teleggio: It literally, smells, like, a...SWEATY GYM SOCK! Despite this, I forced myself to taste it, then, upon discovering that its aftertaste mimicked the aroma, literally washed my mouth out with soap!

[UserClone]

I take that back: Pun-pun is the stinkiest cheese of them all.

[reorith]

Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) is the latest version. It doesn't involve any GM convincing, so it has probably been updated due to the number of splatbooks that have been released since I last looked at the build. (A couple of years ago)

how old is this build? does anyone know when it was first seen/created? i thought it was a fairly recent thing but apparently i'm wrong.

[Indon]

Not stupid at all, just very specialized (i.e. gamer geeks like us who hang out in the threads!) knowledge.


It's called "Jargon", I do believe. (tabletop) Gamer jargon, in this case.

[Ulzgoroth]

Pun-pun contains no cheese!

That's not to say it has any place in a game. But as Ikkitosen notes, all you need is the single most broken ability ever written. The key feature being the part where you can give a creature any ability, as per:
A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it.
The rest of the text limits the legal targets of this manipulation, but doesn't modify the quoted sentence at all.:smalleek:

[OverdrivePrime]

Pun-Pun is discussed often enough though I happened across the build a while back. It is pure silly.

However, one of the abbreviations/jargon that I haven't been able to puzzle out despite its frequency of being mentioned is CoDzilla. Seems to reference divine casters, particularly druids. What's the deal?

[kamikasei]

However, one of the abbreviations/jargon that I haven't been able to puzzle out despite its frequency of being mentioned is CoDzilla. Seems to reference divine casters, particularly druids. What's the deal?

"Cleric- or Druid-zilla", because those classes are so powerful they just stomp over everyone like Godzilla.

Isn't there a thread for this? Isn't it stickied, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18512)?

[Citizen Joe]

Cleric Or Druid -zilla. It refers to making your cleric or druid into a fighting machine that outshines fighters in their primary role.

Most of these abbreviations are detailed in a stickied thread up there...

[UserClone]

My definition of stinky, yucky Tellegio CHEESE is using RAW to utterly break the damn game. If it wasn't applicable by RAW, as that silly ability is, then it wouldn't be CHEESE, it would just be either homebrewed or houseruled. CHEESE is rules-lawyering/powergaming taken to its inevitable conclusion (read: pun-pun).

[Ulzgoroth]

Well, while it's not a well-defined thing to argue about...this is perhaps powergaming but not at all rules-lawyering. The more usual 'cheese' relies on using at least two different relatively unbroken effects that have a synergy that boosts the combination into absurdity.

The pun-pun effect is is completely encapsulated in a single (su) ability. To my eyes that puts it in a class distinct from the more usual brand.

[Gralamin]

Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) is the latest version. It doesn't involve any GM convincing, so it has probably been updated due to the number of splatbooks that have been released since I last looked at the build. (A couple of years ago)

There is another version, that can be done by level 1. It just requires the DM to allow Pazuzu into the campaign. (Kobold Paladin 1, states: Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu. He appears and will grant a wish, and since your a paladin, the first one is free of charge. You wish for the aforementioned ability of the Sarrukh's ability, and retrain as a wizard. )

[Morty]

There is another version, that can be done by level 1. It just requires the DM to allow Pazuzu into the campaign. (Kobold Paladin 1, states: Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu. He appears and will grant a wish, and since your a paladin, the first one is free of charge. You wish for the aforementioned ability of the Sarrukh's ability, and retrain as a wizard. )

:smalleek: Please tell me you're joking.

[Gralamin]

:smalleek: Please tell me you're joking.

No I'm not. Pazuzu would be a demon Lord from Fiendish Codex I, and retraining is in PHB2. Then once your a wizard, you grab a scalykind familiar, and become pun-pun.

[Devils_Advocate]

Not stupid at all, just very specialized (i.e. gamer geeks like us who hang out in the threads!) knowledge.
What Pun-Pun is is specialized knowledge. What Google is and how to use it (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-US&q=Pun-Pun&btnG=Search) is fairly common knowledge. As such, questions like this, while not "stupid" per se, tend to make me wonder about the people who ask them. Why do they bother to pose such queries to other human beings? Google tends to produce results faster. E.g. in this case, the first link goes to the original (I think) thread.

[Morty]

No I'm not. Pazuzu would be a demon Lord from Fiendish Codex I, and retraining is in PHB2. Then once your a wizard, you grab a scalykind familiar, and become pun-pun.

But wouldn't be making deals with demon lord a little hard for 1st level character?:smallconfused:

[Gralamin]

But wouldn't be making deals with demon lord a little hard for 1st level character?:smallconfused:

Pazuzu has a unique special ability. One merely has to state his name thrice ("Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu"), and he will appear and offer you a wish. The first time you do this, if your a paladin, their are no consequences, to encourage you to call upon him again.

Edit: The trick is making the DC 25 knowledge Arcana check needed to know this.

[UserClone]

What Pun-Pun is is specialized knowledge. What Google is and how to use it (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-US&q=Pun-Pun&btnG=Search) is fairly common knowledge. As such, questions like this, while not "stupid" per se, tend to make me wonder about the people who ask them. Why do they bother to pose such queries to other human beings? Google tends to produce results faster. E.g. in this case, the first link goes to the original (I think) thread.

Erm...that's not very nice. Perhaps the nature of this questioner is to have a sort of online discussion about this subject with other humans on, say, a forum, rather than ONLY be directed to the appropriate link. That having been said, while FluttersWithPigeons=Stupid, Devils_Advocate~Doodyhead.

[UserClone]

Why not just say, "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu. Turn me into a 1st-level Wizard with abilty X."

[Gralamin]

Why not just say, "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu. Turn me into a 1st-level Wizard with abilty X."

That also works.
Once again the trick is getting past the DC 25 needed to know this. I believe that paying a sage for the knowledge is the easiest way, though I'm not sure.

[Ulzgoroth]

You have to be a bit more clever, since that's way outside the power level of a wish. Instead, you wish for some way to get the Sarrukh to you with the compulsion to grant what you want. Candle of Invocation sometimes mentioned for that.

Now that, I'd call cheese. Well...anything planning on using Pazuzu is pretty much bound to be cheese.