3.5e Feat Fixes - Suggestions?

[WesleyVos]

I'm starting up a new game, and I thought, in the interest if giving mundanes some nice things, that I'd attempt a few feat fixes. Here's what I have so far, and I'm wondering if anyone has additional suggestions, or if any of the fixes I made go too far:

- Point Blank Shot now includes Precise Shot.
- Two-weapon Fighting now includes Improved and Greater TWF at the appropriate levels. It also includes Oversized Two-weapon Fighting at BAB +5.
- Two-weapon Defense now includes Improved and Greater TWD at the appropriate levels.
- NEW FEAT: Power Shot. Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, STR 13. Power Shot allows you to power attack with any ranged weapon to which you may apply a strength bonus to damage so long as you are within one range increment of the target. The Far Shot feat allows you to extend this to two range increments.
- Dodge and Mobility are now rolled into one feat. The Dodge bonus now applies to the last opponent you attacked or the opponent of your choice. The bonus also increases by +1 for every extra attack you could make.
- Toughness now acts as Improved Toughness. You get +1 HP every level.
- NEW FEAT: Improved Toughness. Prerequisites: BAB +4, Toughness. As a free action, you may sacrifice up to ½ your Base Attack Bonus in exchange for Damage Reduction in that amount for one turn. This DR is untyped and stacks with Damage Reduction from any other source.
- Improved Critical (feat) can now stack with a keen/impact/etc. weapon.
- Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization/Greater Weapon Specialization are rolled into one feat, assuming you meet the prerequisites for getting the various iterations of the feat. Once you meet the prerequisites, you automatically gain the additional bonus.
- Improved Feint: You can now feint as a swift action, not a move action. With at least 12 ranks in bluff, you may feint as part of a full attack action.
- Endurance and Die Hard are now one feat.
- Greater Feint. Prerequisite: Improved Feint, Bluff 10 ranks. With a successful feint, you can force an opponent to take a 5’ step in any direction. If you succeed by 10 or more, you can force a second 5’ step as well.
- Weapon Finesse: You use your dex bonus as a replacement for strength for both attack and damage rolls when wielding a light weapon.
- Shield Specialization: In addition to the static bonus, you may subtract up to ½ your BAB and add it to your AC as a shield bonus.
- Improved Shield Specialization. Prerequisite: Shield Specialization. You may subtract up to ½ your BAB and add double that value to your AC as a shield bonus. This feat also allows you to apply your shield bonus to touch AC.
- Shield Ally. Prerequisite: Shield Specialization. Add your shield bonus to an adjacent ally’s AC as a counter. This counter takes a move action. In addition, any opponent you threaten takes a -4 penalty on attacks against anyone other than you.
- Shield Tank. Prerequisites: Shield Specialization, Improved Shield Specialization, Shield Ally. As a full-round action, you can force all opponents within 30 feet to make a will save (DC 10 + BAB + CON) or focus their attacks on you for one round.
- Skill-related feats: Feats that grant +2/+2 to skills now grant that bonus plus ¼ your level, rounded down. Skill Focus now grants +3 plus ½ your level, rounded down.


Thoughts?

[johnbragg]

I don't think any of those are bad ideas.

In general, I'd ask what problems your table has had in the past.

Have your casters overshadowed mundanes, or are you just "just-in-case"ing?

That said, I'd consider a gentleman's agreement at the table for clerics (and maybe bard, depending on your table's experience with bards) not to take these feats.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Should help the feat-crunch a bit, aye.

[WesleyVos]

All of my games are PbP, so tables vary wildly. I don't mind (and enjoy) fairly high-op characters, and typically as a DM optimize opponents. In particular, as this will be an arena game, I want to make it possible for mundanes to actually compete. And yes, I know full casters will always outshine the mundanes. This is just an attempt to close the gap a bit.

[Grod_The_Giant]

All of my games are PbP, so tables vary wildly. I don't mind (and enjoy) fairly high-op characters, and typically as a DM optimize opponents. In particular, as this will be an arena game, I want to make it possible for mundanes to actually compete. And yes, I know full casters will always outshine the mundanes. This is just an attempt to close the gap a bit.
It's not really going to do any of that; mostly, it just makes feat crunch a bit less painful by consolidating some of the common chains. Which is good!

[johnbragg]

It's not really going to do any of that; mostly, it just makes feat crunch a bit less painful by consolidating some of the common chains. Which is good!

Right. These ideas all seem good, they will each do what they're designed to do, without creating big new problems. But they're not going to do much about caster supremacy, or about Tier 1-Tier 5 problems.

[WesleyVos]

Any suggestions for any additions, then? Other changes that need to be made, or new feats that should be added? I'd like to make archers, TWF, and Sword-and-board all viable options, as well as making a way for some of the lower tiers to contribute something to combat.

I had also considered a few class alterations, and possibly allowing back-porting of pathfinder classes for lower-tiered characters (the fighter is the big one), or possibly making some ACFs for lower-tiers automatic class features (Dungeoncrasher, for example, not replacing bonus feats but in addition to them), but I don't have any of that worked out fully yet.

[johnbragg]

Any suggestions for any additions, then? Other changes that need to be made, or new feats that should be added? I'd like to make archers, TWF, and Sword-and-board all viable options, as well as making a way for some of the lower tiers to contribute something to combat.

I had also considered a few class alterations, and possibly allowing back-porting of pathfinder classes for lower-tiered characters (the fighter is the big one), or possibly making some ACFs for lower-tiers automatic class features (Dungeoncrasher, for example, not replacing bonus feats but in addition to them), but I don't have any of that worked out fully yet.

I haven't done the homework on these, but:

Sword-and-Board: A feat (or feat-chain) that lets a shield-user seriously boost their AC. Say add 1/2 BAB to AC instead of +2 for a nonmagical shield. (You aren't just Proficient with a Shield, you are really really good with it.)

TWF's biggest problem is that DR nullifies your attacks. (That, and not keeping up with 2HPA raging barbarian's damage output).

Archers might be okay if you stack Manyshot with your power-attack-with-bow feat.

EDIT: Actually I just remembered the feats and rule tweaks in my sig. You might want to look at those.

The shield feats are less useful in an arena one-on-one fight--they're mostly ways to make tanking mechanically possible. But worth a look.

[WesleyVos]

I haven't done the homework on these, but:

Sword-and-Board: A feat (or feat-chain) that lets a shield-user seriously boost their AC. Say add 1/2 BAB to AC instead of +2 for a nonmagical shield. (You aren't just Proficient with a Shield, you are really really good with it.)

TWF's biggest problem is that DR nullifies your attacks. (That, and not keeping up with 2HPA raging barbarian's damage output).

Archers might be okay if you stack Manyshot with your power-attack-with-bow feat.

EDIT: Actually I just remembered the feats and rule tweaks in my sig. You might want to look at those.

The shield feats are less useful in an arena one-on-one fight--they're mostly ways to make tanking mechanically possible. But worth a look.

Ooh, that gave me some more ideas:

- Weapon Finesse: You use your dex bonus as a replacement for strength for both attack and damage rolls when wielding a light weapon.
- Shield Specialization: In addition to the static bonus, you may subtract up to ½ your BAB and add it to your AC as a shield bonus.
- Improved Shield Specialization. Prerequisite: Shield Specialization. You may subtract up to ½ your BAB and add double that value to your AC as a shield bonus. This feat also allows you to apply your shield bonus to touch AC.
- Shield Ally. Prerequisite: Shield Specialization. Add your shield bonus to an adjacent ally’s AC as a counter. This counter takes a move action. In addition, any opponent you threaten takes a -4 penalty on attacks against anyone other than you.
- Shield Tank. Prerequisites: Shield Specialization, Improved Shield Specialization, Shield Ally. As a full-round action, you can force all opponents within 30 feet to make a will save (DC 10 + BAB + CON) or focus their attacks on you for one round.
- Greater Feint. Prerequisite: Improved Feint, Bluff 10 ranks. With a successful feint, you can force an opponent to take a 5’ step in any direction. If you succeed by 10 or more, you can force a second 5’ step as well.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Any suggestions for any additions, then? Other changes that need to be made, or new feats that should be added? I'd like to make archers, TWF, and Sword-and-board all viable options, as well as making a way for some of the lower tiers to contribute something to combat.
I mean, it's hard to make work through feats alone. The simplest low-tier boost is gestalting: T4+T5 usually works out pretty well. If you want to go a little farther, my 5 rule rewrite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?535084-Five-Quick-Rules-for-Fixing-3-5)is about as good as you'll get in terms of effect:length.

[Goaty14]

I'm starting up a new game, and I thought, in the interest if giving mundanes some nice things, that I'd attempt a few feat fixes. Here's what I have so far, and I'm wondering if anyone has additional suggestions, or if any of the fixes I made go too far:

- Dodge and Mobility are now rolled into one feat. The Dodge bonus now applies to the last opponent you attacked or the opponent of your choice. The bonus also increases by +1 for every extra attack you could make.
Is there a reason for this? Is the extra wording so the DM can assume which is the last target of dodge?

- Shield Ally. Prerequisite: Shield Specialization. Add your shield bonus to an adjacent ally’s AC as a counter. This counter takes a move action. In addition, any opponent you threaten takes a -4 penalty on attacks against anyone other than you.
I personally don't like how this looks like both Shield Counter and Iron Guard's Glare into a single feat. Question: Does this still make it worth playing a crusader at low levels? Do both this feat and the actual Iron Guard's Glare stack?

- Shield Tank. Prerequisites: Shield Specialization, Improved Shield Specialization, Shield Ally. As a full-round action, you can force all opponents within 30 feet to make a will save (DC 10 + BAB + CON) or focus their attacks on you for one round.
So you do this... and nothing else?

[WesleyVos]

Is there a reason for this? Is the extra wording so the DM can assume which is the last target of dodge?

I personally don't like how this looks like both Shield Counter and Iron Guard's Glare into a single feat. Question: Does this still make it worth playing a crusader at low levels? Do both this feat and the actual Iron Guard's Glare stack?

So you do this... and nothing else?

1) Yes, mostly. Part of the big flaw with dodge is that it is both situational (to negate the bonus, all that has to happen is the chosen target be the wrong one) and often forgotten to be declared.

2) You may be right there. I may have to think about it some more. The idea is to make it so that classes other than a crusader actually have tanking options.

3) Yes. It's a pretty powerful tanking ability, IMO, as it prohibits melee attacks on any other party member within 30', and the save targets will (usually a poor save for melee-focused monsters and mooks).

[Pleh]

One of my favorite Feat Fixes is to change how the "+2 to x,y,z" feats work.

Instead of +2, the bonus scales at half level, rounded down (inspired by SW Saga ed).

E.g. Stealthy gives a bonus to Hide and Move Silently equal to half your effective character level, rounded down.

I feel like this helps the skill monkeys stay relevant at their jobs better and makes those feats hurt much less when they pop up as feat tax prereqs for PrCs.

[WesleyVos]

One of my favorite Feat Fixes is to change how the "+2 to x,y,z" feats work.

Instead of +2, the bonus scales at half level, rounded down (inspired by SW Saga ed).

E.g. Stealthy gives a bonus to Hide and Move Silently equal to half your effective character level, rounded down.

I feel like this helps the skill monkeys stay relevant at their jobs better and makes those feats hurt much less when they pop up as feat tax prereqs for PrCs.

Not a bad idea. I think I will add those in.

- Skill-related feats: Feats that grant +2/+2 to skills now grant that bonus plus ¼ your level, rounded down. Skill Focus now grants +3 plus ½ your level, rounded down.

[ayvango]

- Improved Critical (feat) can now stack with a keen/impact/etc. weapon.
2x for Improved critical, 2x for keen, 2x for weapon of legacy. 8x3 = 24, every hit is a crit. Add there the lightning maces feat glued by the weapon aptitude enhancement, and you would get too many strikes per round until character throws natural 1. Telling blow makes always crit always sneak.

[King of Nowhere]

the good thing about caster supremacy is that you can give pretty much anything to the mundanes without worrying about upsetting the "balance" too much. You can hardly go wrong with giving the mundane more goodies.


2x for Improved critical, 2x for keen, 2x for weapon of legacy. 8x3 = 24, every hit is a crit. Add there the lightning maces feat glued by the weapon aptitude enhancement, and you would get too many strikes per round until character throws natural 1. Telling blow makes always crit always sneak.

Not how it works multiplication in this game. basically what is called x2 is actually +100%, so if you do it two times, you don't get x4, you get +200%.

So +100% for improved critical, +100% for keen, +100% for weapon of legacy, you get +300%. Ok, if you get a weapon that crits on 18-20 you can still threaten a critical with a 9, but it's hardly the same thing

[WesleyVos]

the good thing about caster supremacy is that you can give pretty much anything to the mundanes without worrying about upsetting the "balance" too much. You can hardly go wrong with giving the mundane more goodies.



Not how it works multiplication in this game. basically what is called x2 is actually +100%, so if you do it two times, you don't get x4, you get +200%.

So +100% for improved critical, +100% for keen, +100% for weapon of legacy, you get +300%. Ok, if you get a weapon that crits on 18-20 you can still threaten a critical with a 9, but it's hardly the same thing

Agreed. I have no problem with a crit threat on a nine if a player makes that much investment in crits.

[ericgrau]

Without thorough playtesting extensive fixes are usually a mess. I'm pretty sure this will be a complete disaster... unless your caster players are already playing rocket tag anyway and it can't get any worse? Something like this flopped with the alpha version of Pathfinder, then they ended up only making minor changes.

If you want to give mundanes nice things then give them magic items. Play with +50% WBL for all, job done. Lots of random low cost items is pretty fun actually, giving you all kinds of quirky things to do. Mundanes get magic. Magics get more of the same.

If you're worried about fair games then play with casual optimization. Most people away from internet boards don't have much of a problem playing 3.5 as-is. If anything they tend to be bored with the mundanes, but they don't feel too weak. Again, give toys.

Generally feat buffing/consolidating makes the users overpowered in a very narrow range. So they still fail to keep up in high optimization which lets you do 300 different things well, but in low optimization they still manage to break the game by doing 2-3 things excessively well. Feat tax by requiring a feat for a balance "fix" also reduces choices and fun. I might allow feat retraining to reduce pre-planning. And see paragraph 3. That's about it.

[Cosi]

The real problem is that there are two different types of feats.

On the one hand, you have feats like Endurance, Tomb Tainted Soul, or Fiery Burst. Those feats provide a minor ability to your character that will occasionally be relevant, but won't have any substantive effect on them.

On the other hand, you have feats like Divine Metamagic, Greenbound Summoning, or Lord of the Uttercold. Those feats provide your characters with dramatic new abilities that allow them to do radically different things from what they did previously. A Cleric without DMM is a modestly effective combatant. A Cleric with DMM can causally outfight any Fighter who is remotely close in optimization otherwise.

These problems are compounded by the fact that some things shift feats from the first category to the second (for example, on its own Persistent Spell is kind of crap, but if you can reduce it to zero adjustment, it becomes absurd), and the fact that the second category is almost entirely dominated by caster feats.

I think the problem is that you haven't figured out which side of that divide feats are supposed to be on, so your feats are simultaneously too good (if you were aiming for Tomb Tainted Soul) and too weak (if you were aiming for Greenbound Summoning). If you want my advice for a feat fix, I would let people take the scaling feats from Races of War and the good caster feats with their regular feat slots, then give them free bonus feats (drawn from other RAW 3e feats) at every level. So you would get big impact upgrades a couple of times, plus a constant flow of smaller abilities.

[Darkon47]

One other thing you could do to help martials would be to make it so that every two combat feats you take you get a third free, or scale the numbers on a lot of them based on how many combat feats you have. Also try looking at WoW RPG for some of their feats for martials, they seem to generally be on about the same power level as pathfinder, so it should be just a bit more love for the martials in a 3.5 game, it also just adds more options.

[WesleyVos]

@ericgrau: Objection noted. I am well aware of the problems that feat fixing can cause, as I have seen it done badly. However, I have also seen entire builds scrapped because they were too feat-intensive (Two-weapon fighting and archery are the main ones) or because they were subpar (sword-and-board and, again, two-weapon fighting). My goal here is to make those builds viable without being too feat intensive and, at the same time, free up some feat slots for mundanes to have secondary and tertiary roles in the party.

@Cosi: Understood, which is why I posted asking for suggestions and critique on the feats selected for fixes. While I have a fair bit of system mastery myself, I am not the master that some Playgrounders are, so I wanted to make sure I wasn't causing a significant problem with the feats that were changed. As far as I can tell, most if not all of the feats altered or combined are more of the sometimes-relevant-but-not-overpowered type and not the other. I guess a better way of saying this is that I'm aiming for the middle ground - I want to improve some of the former (Endurance, Toughness, etc., that are generally considered weak) without making them so powerful that every character wants to take them, regardless of role or class.

@Darkon47: That's not a bad idea. I'll keep it in mind.