I think my DM is being unfair

[MindTheGap97]

WARNING: This discussion contains a couple of very mild spoilers on Skulls & Shackles, read at your own risk.

In my current campaign (Skulls & Shackles) I am running a Necromancer Cleric, I have a couple of skeletons to help on the ship and I just recently reanimated the water naga as a zombie, to note that I picked up Experimental Spellcaster to learn the Undeath word of power, since we always have little to no money. Now my DM said that necromancers are way too overpowered and decided to put a duration on the spell after which the undead would be destroyed, I had no problems with it, but I asked him if I could change up my feats since they are all focused on necromancy, which now seemed a way poorer option and he told me no.

Am I the only one thinking that this was kind of a **** move?

Now I am stuck with a character that spent all of his feats on a useless specialization with an undesirable stat array (I had to put more points in Charisma due to Command Undead being Cha-dependant, so I dumped Str a little) and I can't do anything about it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It does seem a bit mean... How long do your zombies last? Have you been steamrollering encounters before this point?

[WesleyVos]

In my current campaign (Skulls & Shackles) I am running a Necromancer Cleric, I have a couple of skeletons to help on the ship and I just recently reanimated the water naga as a zombie, to note that I picked up Experimental Spellcaster to learn the Undeath word of power, since we always have little to no money. Now my DM said that necromancers are way too overpowered and decided to put a duration on the spell after which the undead would be destroyed, I had no problems with it, but I asked him if I could change up my feats since they are all focused on necromancy, which now seemed a way poorer option and he told me no.

Am I the only one thinking that this was kind of a **** move?

Now I am stuck with a character that spent all of his feats on a useless specialization with an undesirable stat array (I had to put more points in Charisma due to Command Undead being Cha-dependant, so I dumped Str a little) and I can't do anything about it.

Two answers to this. First (and best) is, if after reconsideration your DM still says you can't change, then you leave the game. No gaming is better than bad gaming, and a DM who makes a major rule change that affects your character to that degree, and then won't let you change your character specs, is a bad DM making a bad game.

Second, if you're really attached to the game, is to have your character self-destruct (just dive into the water and drown) and make a new character. DM can't stop that.

[MindTheGap97]

It does seem a bit mean... How long do your zombies last? Have you been steamrollering encounters before this point?

On the duration I can't say, maybe a day, maybe a week. We have been able to beat everything quite easily but my undead did not participate most of the time, our bloodrager and archer ranger do a lot of damage, zombies have been giving a hand on deck most of the time. My DM seems to be worried that I would simply ignore the captain (my character is Lawful, isn't interested in being captain and never disobeyed any order, I even told this to him, undead are just to cut down the expenses) if I could accrue a large number of zombies (I have like 2 CR 1/2 generic sailors, 2 CR ? frogs that I plan on discarding anyways and Mr. Plugg for now, aside from the naga which didn't take part in any fight at all for now.) The only undead that I used in a fight so far has been Mr. Plugg, he doesn't even have an armor and doesn't do much damage at all (1d4+2 if I remember correctly).

[MindTheGap97]

Two answers to this. First (and best) is, if after reconsideration your DM still says you can't change, then you leave the game. No gaming is better than bad gaming, and a DM who makes a major rule change that affects your character to that degree, and then won't let you change your character specs, is a bad DM making a bad game.

Second, if you're really attached to the game, is to have your character self-destruct (just dive into the water and drown) and make a new character. DM can't stop that.

On the first point I do like playing with these guys, on the second, I thought about it but I think my DM would complain that my character would never do that and all.

[WesleyVos]

On the first point I do like playing with these guys, on the second, I thought about it but I think my DM would complain that my character would never do that and all.

To the first, again, if the DM is bad, see what the other players think, and consider starting your own game with them. If that's not an option...

To the second point, it's not the DM's decision what your character would do. That's your decision, entirely. I was once in a game in which the DM decided to railroad us past all social interactions because he got bored. I complained the first time, as a large part of the basis of the character was that she didn't know how to interact with people outside her tribe, and her tribe's customs were very strange. I wanted to explore those social interactions, to develop her a bit more before we got to the dungeon crawl. He said he understood, then we began RPing our characters meeting...and he jumped us straight forward again. At that point, I figured out the character I had wasn't best for the game, so she looked at the entrance to the dungeon, said she was bored, and walked off looking for something else to do.

Granted, there were other problems in that campaign (he brought in an overpowered DMPC and was a general jerk when confronted about it), such that I ended up dropping out. Game ended up falling apart shortly thereafter anyway. But the point is that the DM's job is not to define what your character can and cannot do. A D&D game is the players taking actions in a world the DM creates. The DM's job is to manage the world, not the players' actions. If the DM manages the players actions as well, then the DM is not doing his job, he is doing yours.

[Elricaltovilla]

Have your character get over-the-top maudlin, hammy to the max sad whenever one of his zombies/skeletons "dies." Full on wailing, gnashing of teeth, hair pulling, weeks in your bunk sobbing depression whenever one of them goes away. Take up as much in game time as you possibly can with this.

Keep it up until it becomes more annoying than your "overpowered" long lasting skeletons originally were, or someone asks in character what's wrong. If they ask what's wrong, explain in character, that zombies used to last forever but they suddenly changed in the last few days/months and now you fear the power you spent your whole life working towards is fading, and as such you are worthless and life has no point. Then toss yourself into the sea in a dramatic farewell gesture so that you can start a new character that your DM hasn't neutered (yet).

If they try to address it outside of game, explain in a clear, polite and firm manner what your frustrations are with the GM's rules changes and why you dislike them. Then mention how you feel like your DAM doesn't trust you to play your character in a way that will benefit the game and that this hurts your feelings and makes the game unfun for you.

Or just do that last part.

[Geddy2112]

I understand your dm is concerned about minomancy but you don't seem to be abusing it. Necromancy has costs, both in ability score madness, material(or in your case burning a feat) and it's general taboo nature. Using skeletons and zombies as deckhands is far from abuse and seems very in character. Since you are unlikely to mutiny, I would explain this to the dm. I also get concerns down the road that necromancy is too powerful overall, but if the dm changes a major ruling like that you have to be allowed a rebuild as your character can't do much else otherwise.

If they don't allow a rebuild, I second offing the character and rerolling. If they don't allow that then you have no player agency and you should leave the game

[MindTheGap97]

Have your character get over-the-top maudlin, hammy to the max sad whenever one of his zombies/skeletons "dies." Full on wailing, gnashing of teeth, hair pulling, weeks in your bunk sobbing depression whenever one of them goes away. Take up as much in game time as you possibly can with this.

Keep it up until it becomes more annoying than your "overpowered" long lasting skeletons originally were, or someone asks in character what's wrong. If they ask what's wrong, explain in character, that zombies used to last forever but they suddenly changed in the last few days/months and now you fear the power you spent your whole life working towards is fading, and as such you are worthless and life has no point. Then toss yourself into the sea in a dramatic farewell gesture so that you can start a new character that your DM hasn't neutered (yet).

If they try to address it outside of game, explain in a clear, polite and firm manner what your frustrations are with the GM's rules changes and why you dislike them. Then mention how you feel like your DAM doesn't trust you to play your character in a way that will benefit the game and that this hurts your feelings and makes the game unfun for you.

Or just do that last part.

Ok, I really like this suggestion, seems like a nice way to off the character while also giving a nice in-character motivation, if all else fails I will do just that. Thanks guys


I understand your dm is concerned about minomancy but you don't seem to be abusing it. Necromancy has costs, both in ability score madness, material(or in your case burning a feat) and it's general taboo nature. Using skeletons and zombies as deckhands is far from abuse and seems very in character. Since you are unlikely to mutiny, I would explain this to the dm. I also get concerns down the road that necromancy is too powerful overall, but if the dm changes a major ruling like that you have to be allowed a rebuild as your character can't do much else otherwise.

If they don't allow a rebuild, I second offing the character and rerolling. If they don't allow that then you have no player agency and you should leave the game

I don't really want to leave the game, everyone there is a good friend of mine, DM included, I just don't think his approach is the right one in this situation, I don't like rule changes during game in general, I am 100% convinced that houserules should be presented before the first session, so players can build characters accordingly, I just don't get why he's getting so worked up over it, this is his one of his first times DMing, I get that minionomancy looks really scary, this is why I try to keep it easy and only bring one undead with me at a time, I just think he is getting scared of the POTENTIAL of it, even though I tried to explain how i intend to play out my PC.

[Geddy2112]

I don't really want to leave the game, everyone there is a good friend of mine, DM included, I just don't think his approach is the right one in this situation, I don't like rule changes during game in general, I am 100% convinced that houserules should be presented before the first session, so players can build characters accordingly, I just don't get why he's getting so worked up over it, this is his one of his first times DMing, I get that minionomancy looks really scary, this is why I try to keep it easy and only bring one undead with me at a time, I just think he is getting scared of the POTENTIAL of it, even though I tried to explain how i intend to play out my PC.
I get not wanting to leave your group or the game based on something like this. I have been there before with my group. That said, it's pretty unreasonable to do something like that and be an unfair dm. New dm's make mistakes and it is hard when your friends do it. Ask why they are insistent that necromancy is broken, and how forcing you to play your character will make you effectively useless or severely weaker.
Maybe ask to compromise and make your undead act as the spell skeleton crew, but permanent. They can't do anything but sail a ship.

Although death of your character is probably the best. If you really show that you are upset from having your character stripped from you, maybe they will come around.

[MindTheGap97]

I get not wanting to leave your group or the game based on something like this. I have been there before with my group. That said, it's pretty unreasonable to do something like that and be an unfair dm. New dm's make mistakes and it is hard when your friends do it. Ask why they are insistent that necromancy is broken, and how forcing you to play your character will make you effectively useless or severely weaker.
Maybe ask to compromise and make your undead act as the spell skeleton crew, but permanent. They can't do anything but sail a ship.

Although death of your character is probably the best. If you really show that you are upset from having your character stripped from you, maybe they will come around.

I think the point is that he doesn't believe the nerf would handicap my PC that much, maybe because he didn't think it through that much, but now imagine being sailing on the sea with your crew made of 50% skeletons or whatever, all of a sudden they run out of time, now the ship is severely undermanned, good luck sailing it with the penalties associated with missing crewmembers, that is a TPK right behind the corner, or, if not a TPK the end of the adventures as we sit on our ship relying on Create Food and Drink to eat, which, while hylarious, doesn't seem like a nice ending for our characters.

[Elricaltovilla]

Maybe you should show your DM this spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/skeleton-crew/)? The thing you're trying to do is explicitly something the designers planned for and intended to be allowed. There's also unseen crew (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/u/unseen-crew/), but it's higher level and not as good (I think).

[Mutazoia]

You don't have to off your character. You can just have him decide to go on a personal journey to find out why his powers have faded so suddenly, and leave the group. Then in comes your new character as a replacement.

Simply say that since the DM made major changes to the rules that make your character almost completely useless, you are going to retire that character, and create a new one that wasn't hamstrung mid game without warning.

If your DM is a friend, as you say, he should have no problem with this, as it also has the side effect of taking the "overpower necromancer" out of the game completely.

[MindTheGap97]

Ok, there was a misunderstanding, when he asked me "How many HDs can you control with the spell?" I replied "Up to 16 HD of undead" and he thought 16 times my HD so...yeah...now I kinda feel bad for making this thread and all...

oh well

[Velaryon]

See if you can talk to your DM about what problem he has with your necromancy and whether there might be alternative ways to manage the situation.

Minionmancy can be a problem for some DM's, or can be a problem from some players.

If the player is unprepared, then managing hordes of minions can be ridiculously time-consuming, especially during combat. It sounds like you already know this and are trying to keep it from being a problem, but maybe the DM hasn't noticed the steps you're taking to mitigate this by limiting what you can have.

Necomancer PCs also change the game a bit for DM's, because they have to think about whether any enemy they throw at the party might end up as a future minion after the battle. You can make sure that the DM is aware of the HD limits on what can be made into a skeleton or zombie (since it's spelled out in those templates rather than in the spell itself, it can be easy to miss), as well as what kinds of enemies can't be animated at all.

An unprepared DM can have trouble dealing with a bunch of skeletons and zombies cluttering up the battlefield. Speaking from experience, when the necromancer is fielding a half dozen displacer beast skeletons, a couple zombie wyverns, and a motley assortment of other random undead mostly as blockers and front-line defense, it can be a huge pain in the butt to threaten the PC's at all. It might be helpful to go over some ways for DM's to deal with this threat, such as getting the most out of turn undead, or spells and abilities that specifically help fight undead. Obviously you don't want to see these get busted out every battle, but a DM who is better equipped to manage the difficulty of encounters with you is one less likely to break out the nerf bat in frustration.

If none of these are the reason why he wants to limit your undead to only lasting a short time, how about asking him why and trying to present alternatives? It may be that you can't come to an understanding, in which case getting a new character or leaving the game could be the only options. But if you like this character and you like this DM, it's at least worth trying to resolve the issue through discussion first.

[Elricaltovilla]

Ok, there was a misunderstanding, when he asked me "How many HDs can you control with the spell?" I replied "Up to 16 HD of undead" and he thought 16 times my HD so...yeah...now I kinda feel bad for making this thread and all...

oh well

So did he undo the changes then?

[MindTheGap97]

So did he undo the changes then?

Yup, he changed his mind