I need hel for a monk pc

[Pikashell]

So a guy i know wants to play dnd with the group we are forming. He wants to play as an elemental-avatar controling earth, fire and lava monk. Tho I know many people say that the elemental monk archetype is the worst of them all. He wants to make his character a variant human with a staff who is like 27 years old but super wise and his granfather has sealed a sword only he can use but only when he is in a big danger. Plus he says he found a build that was really op. I wonder is his character too broken or maybe more balanced than i think. I need your help to make his character balanced. Thanks in advance!

[CircleOfTheRock]

So a guy i know wants to play dnd with the group we are forming. He wants to play as an elemental-avatar controling earth, fire and lava monk. Tho I know many people say that the elemental monk archetype is the worst of them all. He wants to make his character a variant human with a staff who is like 27 years old but super wise and his granfather has sealed a sword only he can use but only when he is in a big danger. Plus he says he found a build that was really op. I wonder is his character too broken or maybe more balanced than i think. I need your help to make his character balanced. Thanks in advance!
What books are you using? (PHB, SCAG, etcetera).
And, yes, as of errata four elements monks are pretty terrible...

But, um, if you don't tell us what his build is, we can't help...

[Lombra]

If he's new and already starts with a powergaming mentality I'm afraid he will find this edition pretty boring, you as a DM have nothing to fear, arm yourself with patience, your friend shows symptoms for a problematic player. Tell him to simply enjoy the game and relax. There's nothing to win here, I bet he thinks that it's going to be like an MMORPG, let the things flow and point out any eventual toxic behaviour.

[Pikashell]

What books are you using? (PHB, SCAG, etcetera).
And, yes, as of errata four elements monks are pretty terrible...

But, um, if you don't tell us what his build is, we can't help...
so we are using phb, volo, dungeon master guide and monster manual. About the build i asked him and he said he searched how to make four element monk suck less. He found a reddit post from a year ago called anyone have four elements monk expirience. The first comment was the build.

[Aett_Thorn]

so we are using phb, volo, dungeon master guide and monster manual. About the build i asked him and he said he searched how to make four element monk suck less. He found a reddit post from a year ago called anyone have four elements monk expirience. The first comment was the build.

That's not a build. That's a complete homebrew "fix" for the four elements monk. It does seem better and more versatile, but it may also be well out of balance. I'd have to look over it more.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view

[Pikashell]

I didnt really read it. He just said its a build and i believed him

[Aett_Thorn]

I didnt really read it. He just said its a build and i believed him

Well, maybe take a look, and see if you think it'll be balanced for your campaign?

[Pikashell]

We will probably play the starter set because he is really new

[nickl_2000]

Check out Kryx's houserules and specifically his monk class and subclass. He's a member on here, and his monk stuff is pretty amazing

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxGh_mU9ihaPbXMtclcwWTlsM1U

[polymphus]

here's Hel for your monk PC. Hope this Hel helps.

https://shirleytwofeathers.com/The_Blog/powers-that-be/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2017/07/81747e2c1cded24a0fc2599bab8d152b-hel-goddess-iphone-se-475x654.jpg

[polymphus]

Seriouspost: I've seen newbie players who think Fangs of the Fire Snake is some sorta gamebreaking OP thing: the idea these guys seem to have is that you be the ultimate hit-and-run fighter because Fangs will let you avoid opportunity attacks and monk mobility will let you keep out of range.

This critically misunderstands several points:

1) you need to be burning ki every attack action to make it work, and that will burn through your reserve really fast
2) monsters aren't restricted to 30 feet of movement -- the minute he runs into a flier, his "broken strat" falls to pieces.

He could do the same job but much better as a glaive fighter or rogue. Or, you know, a VHuman Any-Other-Monk-Archetype with the Mobile feat.

Also, there's been an errata that changes Water Whip to a main action instead of a bonus action. As a bonus, it would be powerful enough that it could almost redeem the archetype. As a main action, it's hot garbage. A lot of folks haven't seen that errata.

[clem]

If you're open to using the UA Mystic materials, what about a Soulknife with some Wu Jen disciplines thrown in?

[Contrast]

I didnt really read it. He just said its a build and i believed him

Maybe as the DM you should read homebrew you're considering using in your games? :smallconfused: :smallannoyed:

While I tend to agree that the elements monk is a bit subpar, I would suggest at least having your player run the base version for a bit if you have no experience with the class yourself. It's difficult to judge how to fix something if you don't actually know what's broken in the first place and it might turn out that your player is happy anyway. If he's not then you can touch base as the campaign progresses to discuss potentially rebuilding the character.

[danpit2991]

for true hel join a party of kender

[Zonugal]

I think a far more productive and effective pathway to this type of build, instead of utilizing the Way of the Four Elements subclass, would be to just dip two levels into Circle of the Land Druid & couple that with Magic Initiate (Druid).

Two levels and a feat would grant your Monk the following spells:

Cantrips
-- Control Flame
-- Guidance
-- Magic Stone
-- Mold Earth
-- Produce Flame
1st-level
-- Absorb Elements
-- Cure Wounds
-- Earth Tremor

After that point you can have the rest of your levels be in Monk or you can continue to dip into Druid, but instead of being handicapped with an awful subclass you have a few abilities that will continue to scale with your character for their entire adventuring career.

[Desteplo]

That build is a “homebrew” if the monk. It changes the whole thing

-if you are a new DM, don’t allow homebrew. If you don’t know WHY something is bad then don’t change anything

-way of the 4 element is good as it is. It isn’t bad at all. Just not what people wanted. It’s the range and burst monk. You use your ki fast for a good burst but then quickly need a nap to get all your ki back (saving grace is all the ki resets on short rest)

-the more you guys start to play then if he feels like he’s under performing talk to him and then use the homebrew

-that way you get the feeling for how something is bad or good.

[bid]

Two levels and a feat would grant your Monk the following spells:
1st-level
-- Absorb Elements
-- Cure Wounds
-- Earth Tremor
Not really. Unless you level 2 druid has Wis10.
A level 2 druid with Wis16 will prepare 5 spells, which can change every day.

Monks need their ASI, and for variant human I feel mobile (or lucky) are better feats. Having 3 cantrips is good enough that magic initiate can be skipped.


Still, a druid dip will offer more than way of the 4E.

[Citan]

So a guy i know wants to play dnd with the group we are forming. He wants to play as an elemental-avatar controling earth, fire and lava monk. Tho I know many people say that the elemental monk archetype is the worst of them all. He wants to make his character a variant human with a staff who is like 27 years old but super wise and his granfather has sealed a sword only he can use but only when he is in a big danger. Plus he says he found a build that was really op. I wonder is his character too broken or maybe more balanced than i think. I need your help to make his character balanced. Thanks in advance!
Hi!

Sooo: first advice: DON'T accept the homebrew.
Tell him that he'll play a regular, 4E Monk.

It's honestly cool enough, although it's usually better played by people who are experienced with resource management in particular.

If you really want to be (really really) generous with him, I suggest making just the three following changes (I'd pick only one myself, but giving three won't be any game-breaking, however your other players may complain of the obvious favoritism and ask for the same kind of gifts):
- Bonus Ki points equal to WIS mod added to the pool (if you pick only one, pick this one).
- Allow him to have learned Mold Earth, Control Flames and Produce Flame as a "custom background" benefit.
- Whenever he can learn a 4E discipline, allow him to learn one more (basically double the amount of disciplines he knows).

Anything else should be left to multiclasses (which is, incidentally, much easier thanks to the bonus KI, since it means he wouldn't suffer as much from the delay in gaining additional ki points) and feats.

[Pikashell]

here's Hel for your monk PC. Hope this Hel helps.

https://shirleytwofeathers.com/The_Blog/powers-that-be/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2017/07/81747e2c1cded24a0fc2599bab8d152b-hel-goddess-iphone-se-475x654.jpg
Im sorry for that mistake. Tho i play smite and really like hel so thanks. The monk guy will like it too

[NecessaryWeevil]

Hi!

Tell him that he'll play a regular, 4E Monk.

...

- Whenever he can learn a 4E discipline, allow him to learn one more (basically double the amount of disciplines he knows).


Did you mean to say 5E?

[Kane0]

4E as in Four Elements, not 4e as in Fourth Edition. Confusing I know.

Anyways, yeah just tell him to stop fussing about the build and give it a go. Standard elements monk is perfectly usable in a game.

If after a few sessions you absolutely need to provide a buff then try this:
- Give a couple cantrips from Elemental Evil (shape water, mold earth, control flame, gust)
- Add Wis bonus to Ki

[JAL_1138]

Four Elements' abilities are considered to cost a little bit too many ki points for what they do, and some are a bit underpowered on top of that. Thus you don't get to use them as often as other Monk subclasses do their own things. Essentially, at worst it's somewhat underwhelming in comparison to other Monk subclasses like Shadow or Open Hand. But it does function adequately enough to get by. The base Monk class is strong enough that choosing a somewhat-weaker subclass, relatively speaking, doesn't make for an unplayably-bad character.

It's hard to make a truly bad character in 5e. It can be done, but it's kinda tough. You almost either have to misunderstand how the rules work to some degree, or deliberately try. It's much easier to play a decent character badly than to actually make one that's useless even when played well. The Four Elements Monk could be better, but it's a long way from actually being outright bad. It can absolutely hold its own in a party.

However, I'm not sure I'd recommend it for a new player. Due to the kinda-high ki point cost of the subclass-specific abilities, when to use them becomes a tactical choice based on both the current situation and what's likely to happen in the near future, and whether the party is likely to get a short rest any time soon. Most of the time a Four Elements monk will need to rely on the class abilities that all Monks get, not its special subclass abilities, saving its subclass abilities for the right situation. Monks in general (not just Four Elements) also have a fair bit of resource-tracking to do, since most of their abilities run off of ki. The abilities also require some know-how of the rules, like how several types of movement normally work, how Actions and Bonus Actions work and interact, and how several different Action types work.

If the player can't tell the difference between a "homebrew replacement for the subclass" and a "build," the Monk may be a little complex for them to start on. Edit: I don't mean that in a derogatory way—we were all newbies at one point, and I highly doubt I'd have known the difference when I got started back in AD&D if online homebrew were as common a thing back then; it can take time to get the hang of it. And plenty of newbies still get tripped up by sites that don't differentiate homebrew from official material well (for instance, a site called D&DWiki is a particularly-bad offender in that regard, and often a repository for some of the worst homebrew on the web; never use it).

[Pikashell]

Well he said just now that if the 4 elements is too complex he could try another subclass. I dont know what to tell him

[JAL_1138]

Well he said just now that if the 4 elements is too complex he could try another subclass. I dont know what to tell him

Honestly, I was probably too harsh, and kind of patronizing, when recommending against it for a newbie. I apologize for that.

4 elements is a functional subclass, and fits his concept best out of pretty much anything--he'll just run out of ki really quick if he spams his elemental abilities every round instead of using them situationally. When to use them is something he can learn how to do in play; it's not like it takes years of system mastery to figure out. It's a steeper learning curve than a Champion Fighter, but it's still doable. Just make sure he (and you) read and understand the section of the PHB on the Monk class thoroughly, and know how various other things work, like the movement rules, Dashing, Disengaging, etc.