Moon Druids have no way to become proficient in natural weapons?

[TheUser]

At first I saw Weapon Master and my heart lit up, I could choose Bite, Claw, Stomp etc. then I read an errata that it's only simple and martial weapons (Cue sad trombone).

Then I consulted Volo's guide to see the specific wording around Bite and Claw attacks for Lizardfolk and Tabaxi.



Bite. Your fanged maw is a natural weapon, which you
can use to make unarmed strikes. If you hit with it, you
deal piercing damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier,
instead of the bludgeoning damage normal for an
unarmed strike.



Cat's Claws. Because of your claws, you have a climbing
speed of 20 feet. In addition, your claws are natural
weapons, which you can use to make unarmed strikes.
If you hit with them, you deal slashing damage equal to
1d4 + your Strength modifier, instead of the bludgeoning
damage normal for an unarmed strike.


If you pick up lizard folk you can only use a bite attack at 1d6 + strength mod in place of an unarmed strike, it does not give you proficiency in bite attacks. The same is true of claw attacks for Tabaxi except that you only deal 1d4 + strength mod. Anything outside of this functionality is as a direct result of DM Fiat ignoring RAW.

Tavern Brawler doesn't work either because Natural Weapons are not Improvised Weapons.

I feel stuck. WotC even went to the trouble of letting Moon Druids have their natural weapons count as magical for overcoming resistance but for some reason nobody at the design team looked at the massive discrepancy in hit chances between Moon Druid forms and other classes?

It's frustrating and indicative of a larger problem at WotC; in their attempts to streamline everything, the one thing that Moon Druids are designed to do they get progressively worse at into the later stages of the game and being able to substitute their own proficiency bonus for those of their beast forms for attack rolls feels balanced and simple.

Is there something I've missed or do Moon Druids just have this one glaring deficiency?

[nickl_2000]

Yes, you are right that bears never get better, or whatever CR1 creature .
However, you get new forms instead. That mitigates not gaining prof to your wildshape attacks

[BobZan]

Even if you were proficient with natural weapons you wouldn't add proficiency to your beast form natural attack, you carry mental attributes and ability & saving throw proficiences only. Use their stat block for HP, attack and damage.

Beast forms are not supposed to be better or equal to other classes in accuracy or damage, some levels it will even outshine any frontliner. By itself its already a very strong and versatile feature. Moon Druids are considered one of the best archetypes in the game due to Wild Shape, it doesn't need any buff.

[Gryndle]

In the PHB an Unarmed Strike is a simple melee weapon (see the weapons table page 149). so if you are proficient in simple weapons you are proficient in unarmed strikes. the Lizard folk and tabaxi natural attacks allow you to use them with an unarmed strike so at least with those two specific abilities Simple Weapon proficiency is all that is required.

EDIT: I just caught that Druids don't have Simple Weapon prof. Apologies for pre-coffee post. However, Weapon Master should still work, as you simply choose Unarmed Strikes plus whatever weapons you want to add.

[lunaticfringe]

In the PHB an Unarmed Strike is a simple melee weapon (see the weapons table page 149). so if you are proficient in simple weapons you are proficient in unarmed strikes. the Lizard folk and tabaxi natural attacks allow you to use them with an unarmed strike so at least with those two specific abilities Simple Weapon proficiency is all that is required.

EDIT: I just caught that Druids don't have Simple Weapon prof. Apologies for pre-coffee post. However, Weapon Master should still work, as you simply choose Unarmed Strikes plus whatever weapons you want to add.

Everyone is proficient with unarmed strike the line in Tavern Brawler was a mistake, errata clarifies & fixes this.

[Avonar]

This would have to be houseruled, the Wild Shape description goes so far as to say you can use your proficiency for ability scores and skill checks, specifically not mentioning attacks.

[nickl_2000]

In the PHB an Unarmed Strike is a simple melee weapon (see the weapons table page 149). so if you are proficient in simple weapons you are proficient in unarmed strikes. the Lizard folk and tabaxi natural attacks allow you to use them with an unarmed strike so at least with those two specific abilities Simple Weapon proficiency is all that is required.

EDIT: I just caught that Druids don't have Simple Weapon prof. Apologies for pre-coffee post. However, Weapon Master should still work, as you simply choose Unarmed Strikes plus whatever weapons you want to add.

However am unarmed strike isn't the same as a natural weapon attack per beast form. Yes, you could do an unarmed strike and do 1 damage + str (or monk damage or 1d4 + str with tavern brawler), but it still doesn't give you prof with beast attacks.

The lack of progression with a single form is why you get new and better forms as you level up.

[Gryndle]

Everyone is proficient with unarmed strike the line in Tavern Brawler was a mistake, errata clarifies & fixes this.

missed that one, even better.

I was specifically addressing the part of the OPs post referring to the Lizard Folk's & Tabaxi's bite/claw natural attacks which specifically allow to be used with your unarmed strike. As for wildshape, eh I'm not touching that with a 10' pole. that whole sub-system is too messed up for my liking.

[TheUser]

Even if you were proficient with natural weapons you wouldn't add proficiency to your beast form natural attack, you carry mental attributes and ability & saving throw proficiences only. Use their stat block for HP, attack and damage.


Except in the wildshape description:



You retain the benefit of any features from your class,
race, or other source and can use them if the new
form is physically capable of doing so. However, you
can't use any of your special senses, such as darkvision,
unless your new form also has that sense.


Meaning if anything gives you proficiency in natural weapons it would benefit you in wildshape.

[nickl_2000]

Meaning if anything gives you proficiency in natural weapons it would benefit you in wildshape.

I agree with your conclusion, however it is impossible to get prof in a natural attack by RAW. PC Races with claws and bite attacks don't get a natural attack, it specifically says that it replaces your unarmed attack.

So, if your DM houseruled it, cool. However, there is nothing in the rules to let it happen.

[BobZan]

It states which proficiences you carry over, I would go that road. I don't want to enter a rule lawyer battle anyway, since you can't acquire the desired proficiency at all.

It's balanced as it is.

[Unoriginal]

Dude, animals are proficient in their own Natural Weapons.

It just happens that Druids are emulating the animal they're turning into, not applying their own proficiency.

[Tanarii]

Dude, animals are proficient in their own Natural Weapons.

It just happens that Druids are emulating the animal they're turning into, not applying their own proficiency.
Yes but his concern is that the hit chance doesn't go up with the Druids proficiency as they gain levels.

Which is why, as others pointed out, Moon Druids get more powerful forms as they gain levels.

[Avonar]

Bear in mind (and pardon the pun) that natural weapons with the same name are not really the same. The bite of a wolf is different to the bite of a bear for example. A druid cannot gain experience in using these except via wildshape, so how would they get proficiency for every single animal? I assume that by making the wildshape attack the druid is giving over to the natural instincts of the animal they have turned into.

[Dyndrilliac]

Thanks to bounded accuracy, attack bonuses and AC don't really scale over the course of the whole game anyway, so it's really unimportant that Druids don't get their proficiency bonus.

The average frontliner is going to max out at +11 to hit (+6 from proficiency, +5 from a maxed main stat).
The Druid of the Moon maxes out at +10 to hit with the CR 6 Mammoth, or +9 with the CR 5 Triceratops. Earth/Wind elemental maxes out at +8.

Now keep in mind the frontliner has probably taken a feat to allow them to take a -5 attack penalty for a +10 damage boost. So odds are pretty good that 99% of the time the frontliner's effective attack bonus is going to be less than the Moon Druid's while in Wild Shape.

So then you might say "but they get to do all that extra damage!" to which I would reply "well the Moon Druid gets practically infinite HP so you're still coming out on top!"

[TheUser]

Thanks to bounded accuracy, attack bonuses and AC don't really scale over the course of the whole game anyway, so it's really unimportant that Druids don't get their proficiency bonus.

The average frontliner is going to max out at +11 to hit (+6 from proficiency, +5 from a maxed main stat).
The Druid of the Moon maxes out at +10 to hit with the CR 6 Mammoth, or +9 with the CR 5 Triceratops. Earth/Wind elemental maxes out at +8.

Now keep in mind the frontliner has probably taken a feat to allow them to take a -5 attack penalty for a +10 damage boost. So odds are pretty good that 99% of the time the frontliner's effective attack bonus is going to be less than the Moon Druid's while in Wild Shape.


And as soon as the martial character gets a magic weapon they plow ahead even further. +3 weapon? Now you're at +14 to hit and +9 if you decide to -5/+10

Throw in archery fighting style and they can -5/+10 and deal more damage and hit more easily....

Yesyes the game isn't balanced around magic items but even a +1 longbow for magical weapon and archery fighting style and you're at +14 to hit.

Infinite HP is a m00t point since 99.9% of games don't take place at level 20.

[Afrodactyl]

Infinite HP is a m00t point since 99.9% of games don't take place at level 20.

However, 126 extra hit points (mammoth) 2/short rest is nothing to sniff at.

[Dyndrilliac]

And as soon as the martial character gets a magic weapon they plow ahead even further. +3 weapon? Now you're at +14 to hit and +9 if you decide to -5/+10

Throw in archery fighting style and they can -5/+10 and deal more damage and hit more easily....

Yesyes the game isn't balanced around magic items but even a +1 longbow for magical weapon and archery fighting style and you're at +14 to hit.

Infinite HP is a m00t point since 99.9% of games don't take place at level 20.

1) There are magic items that improve the effectiveness of Wild Shape attacks. They aren't in the DMG, but check out the Insignia of Claws in HotDQ. It does for Druids what a +1 weapon does for other martial frontliners.

2) The -5/+10 only comes from feats: Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter. No fighting style grants that benefit. Also, those benefits only apply to heavy weapons (all of which are two-handed) and ranged weapons, respectively. And you can only use multiple attacks with crossbows if you take the Crossbow Expert feat. So without more than a single feat investment, they really only benefit two-handed melee weapons (except the greatclub; the only two-handed melee weapon that isn't also heavy), shortbows, and longbows.

3) The moon druid has practically infinite HP from level 1. Yes, at level 20 they can Wild Shape an unlimited number of times, but let's not forget Wild Shape recharges on a short rest as well as a long one, and in the 3 years I've been playing 5e (since the playtest) the only time I've ever seen a Moon Druid not have Wild Shape uses available is when they've spent both simultaneously in order to take the form of an elemental.

So, to sum up, you're wrong on all counts. Druid is balanced as-is. They don't need to carry their proficiency bonus to Wild Shape, since a potential maximum of +3 to their attack bonus will not really matter to them in terms of how viable they are. Even if you did carry it over though, it wouldn't tip the scales of balance more in the Druid's favor to a noticeable degree. A +3 bonus to hit while nice, isn't really going to be felt at the table. If you rolled poorly enough that a +8 or +9 bonus doesn't make it a hit, you likely rolled too low for an additional +3 to make a difference.

[BigONotation]

Moon Druids are full casters, they aren't meant to keep up with martials. If they did they would beyond broken. As it is, their elemental wildshape is incredibly powerful.

[nickl_2000]

Moon Druids are full casters, they aren't meant to keep up with martials. If they did they would beyond broken. As it is, their elemental wildshape is incredibly powerful.

This is very important to consider. Yes wild shape may not attack quite as well, but you make up for it with versatility. Cast call lightning for your first action, then bonus action wildshape. You will end up dropping some serious damage. Or summon some critters them wildshape, all the sudden the bad guys are seriously outnumbered and getting hit from all sides and that is before you turn into a flipping dinosaur.

[TheUser]

1) There are magic items that improve the effectiveness of Wild Shape attacks. They aren't in the DMG, but check out the Insignia of Claws in HotDQ. It does for Druids what a +1 weapon does for other martial frontliners.

2) The -5/+10 only comes from feats: Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter. No fighting style grants that benefit. Also, those benefits only apply to heavy weapons (all of which are two-handed) and ranged weapons, respectively. And you can only use multiple attacks with crossbows if you take the Crossbow Expert feat. So without more than a single feat investment, they really only benefit two-handed melee weapons (except the greatclub; the only two-handed melee weapon that isn't also heavy), shortbows, and longbows.

3) The moon druid has practically infinite HP from level 1. Yes, at level 20 they can Wild Shape an unlimited number of times, but let's not forget Wild Shape recharges on a short rest as well as a long one, and in the 3 years I've been playing 5e (since the playtest) the only time I've ever seen a Moon Druid not have Wild Shape uses available is when they've spent both simultaneously in order to take the form of an elemental.

So, to sum up, you're wrong on all counts. Druid is balanced as-is. They don't need to carry their proficiency bonus to Wild Shape, since a potential maximum of +3 to their attack bonus will not really matter to them in terms of how viable they are. Even if you did carry it over though, it wouldn't tip the scales of balance more in the Druid's favor to a noticeable degree. A +3 bonus to hit while nice, isn't really going to be felt at the table. If you rolled poorly enough that a +8 or +9 bonus doesn't make it a hit, you likely rolled too low for an additional +3 to make a difference.

Now you're just being nitpicky to try and sound right.

1) A single item from one module that offers +1 to hit vs the plethora of legendary artifacts offered at the core level is hardly a comparison.

2) Half of the points in my OP speak to how no feats can be used to alleviate the problem... so your feat tax point is not really relevant.

Are you trying to say that having -5/+10 as an option for a majority of weapons is somehow a sticking point to this discussion? Listing off GWM and Sharpshooter options doesn't validate your point (which is?) and has very little relevance to the discussion at hand. You also forgot to include slings which are one-handed (and hence usable with shields) and simple.

3) they don't have infinite hp and creating a false equivalency between level 2 (that level where you actually get to be a moon druid) and the levels thereafter as being the same just tells me you've never played or seen played a level 12+ Moon Druid. A full round attack from a CR 10 young dragon does 40 damage from multi attack on average and with an AC of 16 or less most of those will hit. Followed by a breath weapon that does half damage at minimum and you've got 4-6 rounds of wildshape before you are either out of wildshape hp or are burning spell slots to either a) heal your beast form or b)have stoneskin up and hope to hell you concentrate (and that's from one CR 10 creature....)

You really shouldn't be talking so smugly and arrogantly when you're clearly out of your element. I haven't been wrong about anything...check yourself before you wreck yourself.

[Talamare]

Animals have Proficiency built into to their Stats...

Mammoth have 11d12+55 HP and 20 Con (+5), which translates to being level 11
They have +7 Strength, but +10 Attack. Which means they are getting +3 from somewhere...

Now let's look at PHB, and see... Oh wait, Proficiency Bonus for Level 11 is actually +4!

However... If you look at older playtest books before the game was officially released
Proficiency bonus for Level 11 was actually +3~

[Unoriginal]

Animals have Proficiency built into to their Stats...

Mammoth have 11d12+55 HP and 20 Con (+5), which translates to being level 11
They have +7 Strength, but +10 Attack. Which means they are getting +3 from somewhere...

Now let's look at PHB, and see... Oh wait, Proficiency Bonus for Level 11 is actually +4!

However... If you look at older playtest books before the game was officially released
Proficiency bonus for Level 11 was actually +3~

NPCs' proficiency bonuses are different from PCs' ones. The Druid is adopting the stats of the Mammoth NPC statblock.


Now, as others have said: the Druid is a full caster. It's more than fine to not be as good in melee combat as Martials.

[intermedial]

Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.

Based on the above, it would seem druids in wild shape do not retain weapon and armour proficiencies.

While the later text notes that you retain your class features, these are distinct from proficiencies. I suppose you could make the case that if a class feature (including a feat) granted you proficiency, those proficiencies would be retained.

Regardless, druids simply lack a build options which elevate their melee damage output. I am not convinced this indicates a design flaw. The design of the druid is noticeably conservative due to the complexity of managing both monster statistics and full spellcasting, which are both areas where myriad options available to the Druid result in a flexible class. Druids bring more to the party than just delivering the mail.

[GraakosGraakos]

And as soon as the martial character gets a magic weapon they plow ahead even further. +3 weapon? Now you're at +14 to hit and +9 if you decide to -5/+10

Throw in archery fighting style and they can -5/+10 and deal more damage and hit more easily....

Yesyes the game isn't balanced around magic items but even a +1 longbow for magical weapon and archery fighting style and you're at +14 to hit.

Infinite HP is a m00t point since 99.9% of games don't take place at level 20.

Oh no, your shapeshifting magic wielding monster person can't swing a claw as well as the fighter can swing a sword.

He can fly, turn invisible, disturb the weather, summon a pack of wolves, create matter, teleport, turn into fire, transmute the ground the fight takes place on, summon walls of stone or ice, bind an angel, summon a coven of hags, or call down flames from heaven instead.

[MxKit]

Now, as others have said: the Druid is a full caster. It's more than fine to not be as good in melee combat as Martials.

Yeah, that's the thing here. Even as a Moon Druid, even getting into Wild Shape and going into front-line melee as much as possible, you are not actually a frontliner and you are not a martial class. You're not even a half caster.

You're a full caster and, as a Moon Druid, a secondliner, and what you're doing is using some of your spellcasting to make yourself able to move forward to the front lines in melee and support the frontliners there. You're also capable of using some of your spellcasting to keep yourself there as long as possible via the second half of your Combat Wild Shape feature. You being able to help tank and do some completely decent damage for a while is very valuable, but it's not the main purpose of your class.

It'd be the same if you were a Wizard casting tenser's transformation in battle. It lets you get up in the front line and help out there, but you're still not a martial and you're not going to be able to do as much damage as the Barbarian or the Fighter. Instead, your magic is giving you a great deal of versatility and the ability to decide where you can be of the most help on the battlefield. In some cases that's going to be turning into a bear or an air elemental; in some cases it's going to be standing back and casting transmute rock a couple times to trap enemies' feet and then zapping fools with call lightning. In some cases you're going to cast longstrider and spike growth and then turn into an earth elemental to grapple and drag your enemies over it, or take advantage of being an allosaurus for as long as you can get away with and then back up to change back and cast wall of fire.

The Druid is not built to just Wild Shape and then have the exact same style of play as a Fighter or Barbarian in battles. You have to play things a bit differently, and that's by design, and imo it's a good thing.

[Dyndrilliac]

check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Lol. Really??? "Check yourself before you wreck yourself." Oh man, you really got me... Clearly all of my well-crafted and accurate points are immediately dismissed by your expert use of 90's kid slang. Thanks for relieving me of any guilt I might have felt by writing you off as someone incapable of intelligent debate.

[Talamare]

3) they don't have infinite hp and creating a false equivalency between level 2 (that level where you actually get to be a moon druid) and the levels thereafter as being the same just tells me you've never played or seen played a level 12+ Moon Druid. A full round attack from a CR 10 young dragon does 40 damage from multi attack on average and with an AC of 16 or less most of those will hit. Followed by a breath weapon that does half damage at minimum and you've got 4-6 rounds of wildshape before you are either out of wildshape hp or are burning spell slots to either a) heal your beast form or b)have stoneskin up and hope to hell you concentrate (and that's from one CR 10 creature....)

You really shouldn't be talking so smugly and arrogantly when you're clearly out of your element. I haven't been wrong about anything...check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Yea, but a CR 10 Young Dragon could do that damage to basically anyone who isn't a Tank

The Dual Wielding Ranger besides you would probably only have 17-18 AC (not a huge difference), but won't have an additional 50-100 HP to fall back on
So what are you complaining about?