im considering a new game

[finaldooms]

hi yall!
so im debating on running a new 3.5 game using an idea i thought of at work.

the party all start off as human with a special class called exarch

what it does is it gives them 14 in all stats with a +1 increase to all stats for the next 3 lvls ( to finish at 17 at lvl 4) along with a stat increase of either +2 to 2 stats or +1 to all stats at lvl 4.
it will also give them +1 bab and +1 to all saves at each other lvl ( so 1, and 3) along with +2 to all skills and make all skill count as class skills.
for the first 4 lvls the party will have to complete trials using weapons they have selected ( from a list of like 10 i guess?) and depending on how they deal with each trial it will influence class selection at lvl 4 ( each player will get a chocie of 3 classes to choose from)

btw if anyone has ideas on what weapons to pick that would be helpful ( im planning on adding a staff or sceptre and putting some presleected spells on them in case anyone wants to just use magic) once all the trials are done the party will...awaken at a temple surrounded by worshippers and they will be lvl 1 in their class but they will get to keep all the exarch bonuses ( so +3 to all stats, +2 bab and saves and +2 to all skills with all skills as class skills) and i will give each player 1 free true ressurection to be used on themselves
EDIT:
I forgot to mention that i will probly not let players slelect feats and instead will give them a chance to earn the feats based on what happens ( aka they manage to talk down a unruly mob or some sort they will most likely gain diplomat or something similar)

im guessing this would count as a high power game? the 14 in all stats alone would be 36 point buy and thats before the game even gets going..

and currently the general idea of the story is guna be...

God Slayers. Broken Universe. Slayers become corrupt pseudo gods. Chaos ensues under the pretense of spreading balance, harmony, and friendship, and only we have any power to reverse its course before the universe threatens to collapse on itself.

[ATHATH]

Or you could let your players, y'know, pick the classes and feats that support the character concept that they actually want to play(,) instead of the character concept that you think they want to play.

This idea just doesn't sit right with me. If your players don't know what character concept they want to play, why not give them a questionnaire (NOT a multiple choice one) with scenarios in it before the game, then help them choose a character concept based on their answers (sort of like those "what D&D class would you be?" quizzes)?

[Malroth]

Honestly this sounds like an extremely LOW powered game, 4 dead levels to get your stat's up to functional does not an optimized build make, honestly their best bet would be to sell their soul to become a warlock at lv 1 with the all 13 stat spread rather than having to go with a custom no class feature class for a marginal bonus later on down the road.

[finaldooms]

Honestly this sounds like an extremely LOW powered game, 4 dead levels to get your stat's up to functional does not an optimized build make, honestly their best bet would be to sell their soul to become a warlock at lv 1 with the all 13 stat spread rather than having to go with a custom no class feature class for a marginal bonus later on down the road.

my bad, i realize i wasnt clear, those 4 exarch lvls wont exist anymore.. they will be lvl 1 of the class they picked ( so it goes clear trials and gain the boosts, then wake up and be a ..cleric or bard or whatever with all the bonuses and none of the lvls ..also i just realized i forgot to post the hp for exach which would be 1d12 and that will be kept as well..so a fighter player would be lvl 1 fighter with 4d12 + 1d10 in hp but still count as only having 1HD

[Crake]

Or you could let your players, y'know, pick the classes and feats that support the character concept that they actually want to play(,) instead of the character concept that you think they want to play.

This idea just doesn't sit right with me. If your players don't know what character concept they want to play, why not give them a questionnaire (NOT a multiple choice one) with scenarios in it before the game, then help them choose a character concept based on their answers (sort of like those "what D&D class would you be?" quizzes)?

Have you considered for a moment that he said to his players "I have this idea for a game, you guys all start at level 1, and take your first 4 levels in this exarch class I'm homebrewing, for XYZ reasons, who's interested?" and the players all agreed to it because they're interested in the direction of the game? He's set the premise and the constraints of the game, the players are free to build within those limitations, or just not play if it's not something they want to participate it. It's not like he's tied them down and forced them to do something against their will.

[King of Nowhere]

So you give them four levels in this "exarc" class to give them some additional hp, BAB, and saving throws.

Why? What's the point?
You may as well give them weaker enemies and have then start at level 1. Or, if you want a high power game, you may just start at a higher level. Or you may give them higher stats, or more items. I just see no point in this whole exarc thing.

[Recherché]

It's not something I'd be particularly interested in. I generally know what I want to play beforehand and being pushed in a direction I don't want to go would be unpleasant. If your players like it then more power to them though.

[ClericalTank]

As a prospective player in the OP's game (and as a player in three and a half of his previous campaigns), I feel inclined to re-clarify the question with a different perspective.

As Crake has suggested, the OP has already discussed this game with me (the mechanics were his idea; I helped with the story bits), and I find it to be an interesting concept overall. I want to see where he goes with the mechanics of earning feats, and the trials themselves could be neat. Will it mess with optimization? Absolutely, but that's not quite the whole point.

Essentially, he's asking if an 18 for every stat and some extra goodies raises the overall power level, and if so by how much, feat and multiclass options notwithstanding (we rarely pick "good" options anyway).

For example, Monks will certainly be affected from having an 18 in every stat; how might they then measure up to Barbarians, Bards, Sorcerers, or Clerics, both before and after being given the same treatment? Will dynamics between mundanes and magic wielders become muddled? Or will things be pretty much the same, only on fire?

After some hard thought, I think we (the PCs) will be much tougher to start with, but eventually the power level will begin to normalize as none of the four "hit dice" actually come with anything; no new attacks or maneuvers, nothing to scale with total hit dice, not even a buff to potential future capabilities. The best thing I can think of is an extra iterative attack for 3/4 and 1/2 BAB classes.

I also think that the idea of the DM having control of feats and classes, if done right, can be an okay method of keeping the power level in between "More Than Mundane" and "Comfortably Insane", especially when not all of the players are looking for optimization on any level.

Then again, I trust this guy as my DM.

[exelsisxax]

Clericaltank,

You have made the situation a lot more clear, but things are still a bit muddled. Why don't you just GET the bonuses and not worry about these fake levels? Everybody is hung up on that because it makes no sense to do. Get rid of the middleman.

Now, when it comes to balance, nothing major will change. Fullcasters are still the best, monks are still garbage. However, if your group isn't big on optimization it may seem like materials get much stronger because they have bigger numbers. It doesn't matter, because fullcasters still get "I win" buttons. If your group thinks monks are anywhere near good, they will think this makes materials OP, but only because they lack the system mastery to assess power.

Tl:Dr cut the chaff from chargen, balance remains non-existent.

[ClericalTank]

Why don't you just GET the bonuses and not worry about these fake levels? Everybody is hung up on that because it makes no sense to do. Get rid of the middleman.

Now, when it comes to balance, nothing major will change. Fullcasters are still the best, monks are still garbage. However, if your group isn't big on optimization it may seem like materials get much stronger because they have bigger numbers. It doesn't matter, because fullcasters still get "I win" buttons. If your group thinks monks are anywhere near good, they will think this makes materials OP, but only because they lack the system mastery to assess power.

Thanks for the counter-clarification.

A) I think I can see where you (and others) are coming from. It isn't fully realized yet, but the four Exarch levels are pretty much fluff to play through for in-character context, by the way it looks so far. I'm not going to say that excluding the trials part (and subsequently the four Exarch levels) is going so far as to hamstring the story, but sometimes I like to know why I'm 5+ times harder to kill than I have much right to be straight out the gate. Can't put a price on context. That said, personally, I don't see playing through a story based homebrew for four levels as a bad thing unless it suddenly becomes tedious, taking more than a couple sessions to go through. Heck, perhaps the trials could start with the PC's already having those four levels in Exarch, if only to give the best of both worlds (between getting into higher levels right away and still providing the story).

To justify the power-up to begin with: the main enemies have slain the gods (presumably ignoring that whole divinity rank thing) and become false gods in their place. Now that I say it like that, the power-up might not be enough...


B) D'oh! That's completely on me; I used the wrong words in the example sentence and now even I think we were concerned with class balance at some point. I should have brought up monsters and specified CR balance instead of naming a core class from every tier. Again, my mistake. Here's the version that annihilates what I actually said says what I meant to say.

For example, Monks will certainly be affected from having an 18 in every stat; how might they then measure up what suddenly becomes the biggest Monstrous Spider that they can solo at level X, and how does this compare to Barbarians, Bards, Sorcerers, or Clerics, both before and after being given the same treatment? Will dynamics between mundanes and magic wielders become muddled? Will the average adventurer be simply that much stronger than their CR-appropriate opponents? Or will things be pretty much the same, only on fire?Emphasis=added text.

All that said, I definitely see a point to thinking about class balance: that the power level fluctuates greatly on its own with something as simple and mandatory as class.

At any rate, it seems like we might have to do some pre-game games and/or number crunching to figure out how to go about this concept. So far I feel like it's on the "same but on fire" kind of level: not quite where the goal is, but certainly not a step in the worst possible direction.

[exelsisxax]

Oh no, I don't mean don't give the bonuses or not do the in-character thing. I mean start off with 1 level of your actual class, and instead of getting fake levels, the DM instead says "+1 all scores because X". Accomplishes the same goal, but far cleaner and easier to explain.

CR is also badly balanced, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. The APL adjustment needed is probably less than an optimized vs unoptimized party. Probably just pretend the party is 2, maybe 3 levels higher(assuming 4 players) for a good starting point. Of course, adjustment will be required regardless.

[Malroth]

I reccomend using the mythic rules instead, giving them 1 mythic rank every 3 character levels

[Yahzi]

Essentially, he's asking if an 18 for every stat and some extra goodies raises the overall power level, and if so by how much
All 18's will make the mundane classes stronger. It won't even matter to the casters, who always had the only stat that mattered at 18.

That said, you can achieve the same thing by handing out stat-boosting items. A +2 item is worth 4000 gp, so giving out 6 of them is like giving your players an extra 25K gp at level 1.

[Remuko]

Reading the context I have to disagree with exelsisxax and king of nowere. These 4 fake levels that are replaces after the trails sounds like a really fun prologue to the campaign. Yes as they said this could all be waived but there's no reason not to play it out either, it could be fun. I've played something similar to that before in my old group and everyone enjoyed it. It can be good rp and in-universe played out explanation for starting with bonuses is (imo) always better than the DM just saying "of youre this much stronger than normal because XYZ reasons".

[finaldooms]

Thanks clericaltank for expanding for me. Im obviously not very good at explaining especially when the idea is just forming( literally had this idea while standing at work )

The exarch is for story purposes to start cause like as was stated it would be boring to just say your x stronger due to y..
I have players who ALWAYS play the same class but then complain they wana try something different so i figured giving them options after they decide how thier character will be would be a nice change of pace for them ( and its not like im saying that they can only be this class its guna be 3 or 5 options for each playet)

After some consideration. I will most likely allow feat choosing but il still reserve the right to award feats based on actions i feel are worth it and il probly increase the end exach bonus to 20 because..they. Will end up fighting strong things ( im not expecting say a group of orcs to pose alot of threat to begin with..so the characters can understand they are more than the average being)

That said im always willing to listen to suggestions or ideas to improve on this

[Faily]

Reading the context I have to disagree with exelsisxax and king of nowere. These 4 fake levels that are replaces after the trails sounds like a really fun prologue to the campaign. Yes as they said this could all be waived but there's no reason not to play it out either, it could be fun. I've played something similar to that before in my old group and everyone enjoyed it. It can be good rp and in-universe played out explanation for starting with bonuses is (imo) always better than the DM just saying "of youre this much stronger than normal because XYZ reasons".

+1 to this.

I probably wouldn't mind trying something similar like this myself. Sounds like a fun idea of doing a start to a campaign slightly different. :smallsmile:

The suggestion with using Pathfinder's Mythic rules is a good one though, if you want to continue with the epic-feeling after the Exarch levels.

[finaldooms]

Ive nevet played pathfinder so i dont understand mystic or mythic rules lol