Core plus ToB only, or Core plus other books, no ToB?

[Hiro Quester]

Considering a short term game, playing levels 8-12 or so.

One option on offer is playing with ToB, something I have been wanting to try. I usually like playing gish-types (e.g. melee bard/SC, Druid) because I like options beyond "I hit it with my sword". But ToB opens up all kinds of cool options for martial types.

I always thought something like an Eternal Blade might be fun to play. A Warblade9/Crusader1/Eternal Blade2 seems to have fun roleplaying possibilities and be relatively useful to a party as a versatile frontline damage dealer/tank. Maybe even Swashbuckler3/ Warblade7/ Eternal Blade+

But here's the catch. I can use ToB, but if I do, that's the only book I can use outside of Core plus DMG2 and PH2.

If I don't use ToB, then DM-approved items and spells from MIC, and Spell Compendium, and maybe some other books could be available.

Can one have fun trying out ToB if that's the only book I can use outside of Core, DMG2, PH2 and Stormwrack? (We might also use Stormwrack because of our partially nautical setting). I could maybe push for rule of fun-for-all inclusion of 3 levels of Swashbuckler class for intelligence synergy. But that would depend on explaining how fun such a character could be to include in the group.

[Fizban]

ToB is very self-contained, the only crazy melee things I think you'd be missing are Shocktrooper (which would only work with charge maneuvers, of which there are few, they already boost your damage, and there is only one "pounce" maneuver), and stuff to extend reach. You don't need MiC's cheap items when you've got the defensive maneuvers, while if you're on DM approval only there's not much in the crazy gish department. You've still got the core trip stuff if you want that.

I'd recommend against pushing Swash- spending extra points on int to get small bonus damage that's best for tons of attacks does not mesh with the maneuvers Eternal Blade gets at all, but it does cost you 1.5 (so effectively 2) levels of initiating, putting you behind on that greater access. Initiators are hurt less by multiclassing, but they still are- and even that Crusader dip will drop your Warblade IL so you're a level behind (still plenty of worth to it)

[Venger]

yeah, go for it and add tob, you'll be pretty much fine.

[Nifft]

Do it, play a ToB character and show your DM that ToB isn't particularly broken. Then maybe next game you can play ToB + all the other books.

I'll second the opinion that a full Warblade 10 or Crusader 10 is better than mixing in some Swashbuckler. Honestly there's almost not much good about Swashbuckler beyond the Daring Outlaw feat.

[GrayDeath]

Agreed.

Go ToB, build a Character that fits and rocks without being bonkers, and enjoy future Games without silly limitations. :)

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks.

I think I would take this option, and try either straight Warblade 10/Eternal Blade+

Or maybe Warblade9/ Crusader1/ EB+ I have seen that recommended, but don't fully understand why yet; I'm guessing it has something to do with particular maneuvers that Crusader has access to, and perhaps the healing I think it gets. I have not yet explored deeply enough.

And thanks for warning off Swashbuckler. The more I think about it, the Int to damage probably isn't enough to offset the loss of initiator levels.

[GrayDeath]

Well, aside from the additional Starting Maneuvers of Crusader, and the Power Up that offers, I dont see a point in it either.
That however does tend to help versatilitywise.

Are you sure about Eternal Blade? its only really good if you go 10 levels in it, while say Master of the 9 also offers nice benefits and only needs 5 Levels (granted you ened to either multiclass to Sword Sage or spend feats to fulfill its PRereqs, but in exchange you dont need to be an Elf and can achieve the most readier maneuvers with the Warblade Recovery Method^^).

[Nifft]

Thanks.

I think I would take this option, and try either straight Warblade 10/Eternal Blade+

Or maybe Warblade9/ Crusader1/ EB+ I have seen that recommended, but don't fully understand why yet; I'm guessing it has something to do with particular maneuvers that Crusader has access to, and perhaps the healing I think it gets. I have not yet explored deeply enough.

Eternal Blade gives 5 new maneuvers from the Devoted Spirit, White Raven, Iron Heart, and Diamond Mind schools.

Warblades get Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, and White Raven maneuvers (plus others).

Crusaders get White Raven and Devoted Spirit.

You only get 5 total new maneuvers, so you're not going to top-out in all 4 schools. IMHO it makes more sense to focus on two of them -- but maybe it's possible to cherry-pick something specific in Devoted Spirit if you use that 1 Crusader level to pick up some prerequisites? I dunno.

IMHO you'll be fine as either a Warblade 10 or a Crusader 10 => Eternal Blade 10. The two builds are pretty different, but both are great.

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks. This is a new system to me, so I'm just reading up and learning right now.

I'd like to use this to both try it out for myself and show DM that this system might be a fun addition for the martial types in our party.

So I'm torn between something simple yet versatile Warblade/eternal blade, and something like Master of 9 that samples all the different schools and recovery methods, etc.

I have just finished a campaign playing a druid, so I'm not afraid of managing bookkeeping-heavy complication, if it makes a fun character to play.

[Nifft]

Thanks. This is a new system to me, so I'm just reading up and learning right now.

I'd like to use this to both try it out for myself and show DM that this system might be a fun addition for the martial types in our party.

So I'm torn between something simple yet versatile Warblade/eternal blade, and something like Master of 9 that samples all the different schools and recovery methods, etc.

I have just finished a campaign playing a druid, so I'm not afraid of managing bookkeeping-heavy complication, if it makes a fun character to play.

It's your first ToB character, and the DM seems mildly distrustful of the ToB subsystem.

My advice is keep it simple. This both minimizes your own potential mistakes, and maximizes your chance of demonstrating to the DM that the subsystem is trustworthy.


If Eternal Blade weren't so thematically excellent and mechanically cohesive, I'd probably recommend just being a vanilla Warblade 20 or Crusader 20.

But Eternal Blade is thematically excellent, and it gives your DM a set of good hooks to integrate with the story.

[GrayDeath]

Thanks. This is a new system to me, so I'm just reading up and learning right now.

I'd like to use this to both try it out for myself and show DM that this system might be a fun addition for the martial types in our party.

So I'm torn between something simple yet versatile Warblade/eternal blade, and something like Master of 9 that samples all the different schools and recovery methods, etc.

I have just finished a campaign playing a druid, so I'm not afraid of managing bookkeeping-heavy complication, if it makes a fun character to play.


In that case I fully agree with Nifft.

Play a simple Warblade 10, Eternal Blade 10. Ideally do not use Iron ehart Surge too often (even the RAI Version tends to ... aggravate some DM`s) and enjoy a Martial that actually does what its supposed to do. :D

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Core+ToB if you want to play a martial class primarily (basically replaces core-only Fighter, Monk, and Paladin except as short dips). Otherwise no ToB

[Epic Legand]

TOB, with restrictions. The issue you face is perception. If your DM expects TOB to be equal to fighters, then he will think its broken. If he compares it to casters, he will see its fine. You will be fine, IF he agrees casters are vastly more powerful then fighter types. If he expects you to come in with something at the power level of a monk, hes gonna be unhappy. In which case, make a caster, with all the books.