How do I most effectively screw over my fellow party members?

[dehro]

Context:
My character, the leader of our party of level 5-7 characters in a Dragonlance setting, died on the field of battle. Not being prepared our any good at improvising a character, I quickly rolled a thief. My fellow party members being none to bright/pressed for time did zero background check before recruiting this thief, to the point off not asking the character's name.
I don't particularly like the new character and wouldn't mind losing him.
Our mission is to find a number of artifacts to prevent them falling in the hands of the enemy.

My dastardly plan: to wait for the next artifact to be found and, as soon as opportunity presents itself, grab it, make like a tree and leave.

Issues: I have notoriously bad luck with dice in critical situations where the outcome hinges on me making a roll; I'm trailing 2 levels behind and the party is quite big, including a black robe wizard (don't ask), a massive knight of the crown, a cleric and a few other characters.
I have no way of effectively one-shooting another character, not even under the most favorable of circumstances.
So, how do I execute my plan?

My aim is to rely as little as possible on dice rolls and so far I have come up with two possible scenarios:
Somehow neutralise the other guard during a nightly guard duty shift, steal the artifact and run off into the darkness.
Wait for the person carrying the artifact, usually the wizard, to drop to zero in a fight, and, under the guise of healing her, pinch the artifact (with or without coup de gracing her), and run away.
Both these options rely on invisibility portions or other means of rendering myself untraceable for at least a couple of rounds... but to pull it off I need to put together a proper plan...and that's what I need your help with.

Suggestions on how to improve my chances of success/ minimising my dependency on favorable dice are very much appreciated.
P.S. magic items are very hard to come by but I do have some latitude in picking equipment and abilities since I'm pretty much still creating my character and have 5k gold to spend.
My DM knows about my plan and hasn't stopped cackling, but won't otherwise assist me in its execution. I'm also rolling dice for my next character, whether this one vanishes into the darkness or gets rightfully trounced by my friends.

[icefractal]

I have to say, this whole idea is basically abusing the social contract. Not necessarily, the PVP, but this:

My character, the leader of our party of level 5-7 characters in a Dragonlance setting, died on the field of battle. Not being prepared our any good at improvising a character, I quickly rolled a thief. My fellow party members being none to bright/pressed for time did zero background check before recruiting this thief, to the point off not asking the character's name.You had to make a character quickly and on short notice, in order to be able to keep playing. The other players, likewise, had to accept said character into the party quickly in order for you to keep playing. If they'd been more selective, taking the time for a full security check on said thief, then you likely wouldn't have gotten to play that session. Would that have been ok by you?

So, you can do this, but I'm not sure you should. Are you ok with lengthier interviews and possibly a waiting period for new characters going forward? Because I think this would encourage that!

[Nifft]

Just bake them all cookies laced with laxatives and/or cyanide.

That's more honest and achieves the same result: game over, man.

[the_david]

Normally I'd advise you not to screw over your fellow party members. In this case I'd say they had it coming and you've got your DM's blessing anyway. I'd advice you to not kill other PCs.

Say that your thief (Rogue?) came prepared. He'd definitely have a potion of invisibility on him, but what about poison, or perhaps a potion? Deep Slumber would work for 3 minutes with a DC of 14. Oil of Taggit could render someone unconscious for hours with a DC of 15. (I know, it's not much.)

What's the motivation of your thief? Is he working for the enemy? Would he kill people on his side to maintain his disguise? Will the DM take over your thief once he's succeeded in stealing an artifact?

[the_david]

I have to say, this whole idea is basically abusing the social contract. Not necessarily, the PVP, but this:
You had to make a character quickly and on short notice, in order to be able to keep playing. The other players, likewise, had to accept said character into the party quickly in order for you to keep playing. If they'd been more selective, taking the time for a full security check on said thief, then you likely wouldn't have gotten to play that session. Would that have been ok by you?

So, you can do this, but I'm not sure you should. Are you ok with lengthier interviews and possibly a waiting period for new characters going forward? Because I think this would encourage that!

This might just be a lack of roleplaying on their side. If that's the case, go for it!

[dehro]

It's both lack of role-playing and the remaining party leader having and playing a not so unique combination of stick up his arse and wisdom score of 9.
The previous campaign ended with 1 character bailing on the party and another becoming Lord of one of the nine hells, after also ditching us...

[johnbragg]

First, biggest question is OOC.

You know your group. (Or if you don't, you shouldn't try shenanigans like this.)

When the ruse is revealed, will they think this is:
1. One of their favorite elfgame tales, or
2. You being a huge turdburglar who they don't want to play elfgames with.

Figure that out before getting tactical details.

[johnbragg]

It's both lack of role-playing and the remaining party leader having and playing a not so unique combination of stick up his arse and wisdom score of 9.
The previous campaign ended with 1 character bailing on the party and another becoming Lord of one of the nine hells, after also ditching us...

And did the other players think that was
A) great fun or
B) two players ruining the campaign?

I've played with both types of groups.

[dehro]

We have been playing together for 5 years and are still playing. It won't be my most popular day with anyone caught in the crosshairs should I kill someone in the process, but everybody is a good sport and most other people will find it great fun.
Also, I don't necessarily have to kill anyone..in fact doing so might slow me down and make my escape turn into gruesome retribution, something I'm equally down with.

I have the DM's blessing to adapt my gear and stats to my intended purpose, within the limits of my five levels and the setting, low magic resources Dragonlance

[jmax]

We have been playing together for 5 years and are still playing. It won't be my most popular day with anyone caught in the crosshairs should I kill someone in the process, but everybody is a good sport and most other people will find it great fun.
Also, I don't necessarily have to kill anyone..in fact doing so might slow me down and make my escape turn into gruesome retribution, something I'm equally down with.

I have the DM's blessing to adapt my gear and stats to my intended purpose, within the limits of my five levels and the setting, low magic resources Dragonlance

If you do it without actually killing anyone (possibly by intentionally botching the attempt), you can turn your old character into a mini-arc minor villain. This works especially well if your new character has either tracking or divination - the party can consult him or her to help with recovering the artifact. Even without those specialties, though, your new character could just be the new replacement filling out the party's ranks.

Since it plausibly ends with the party still having the artifact and only becomes a temporary diversion, this could add some nice flavor and change of direction instead of just making everyone angry. It also gives you the opportunity to roleplay a spectacular death for the thief.

On that note - is the artifact small enough to swallow? :-P


As others have said, you know your fellow players better than we do. But intentionally being a jerk is rarely productive in general.

[dehro]

there's a list of artifacts and I (the character) barely know about them.. I the player know they can't be swallowed :smallbiggrin:

I'm quite confident that my fellow players would take my betrayal in good stride and even should they lose an artifact (in fact we've already lost one or two), it wouldn't compromise the entirety of our campaign, which revolves around a war that has barely started. Solamnia Vs Neraka, if you're familiar with the source material.

my main thing is that the probability that I'll succeed in absconding with any number of artifacts is rather small, the balance of power being in favour of the rest of the party pretty much under every circumstance.
So how do I engineer a circumstance where I can give this idea at least a valiant shot?
I'm thinking using smoke-sticks and/or invisibility potions or some other such items to enhance my stealing/stealting ability and take it from there..
but I don't have a definite plan and if you have other ideas that aren't too dice-dependent and can give me an edge, they are welcome.

[Elkad]

Wait for the wizard to get low on health in a big fight.
Finish him off, nick the artifact, and run like hell while drinking your potion of Invisibility. Follow it with a Fly potion, and probably a scroll of Nondetection, so tracking you is difficult.
Bonus points if you can figure out a way to steal the whole dead Wizard (stuff him in a portable hole?).

Pick a good opportunity - you want the rest of the party to be still in the fight, so they can't chase you down immediately. That may mean waiting several fights.

Patience.

[dehro]

Wait for the wizard to get low on health in a big fight.
Finish him off, nick the artifact, and run like hell while drinking your potion of Invisibility. Follow it with a Fly potion, and probably a scroll of Nondetection, so tracking you is difficult.
Bonus points if you can figure out a way to steal the whole dead Wizard (stuff him in a portable hole?).

Pick a good opportunity - you want the rest of the party to be still in the fight, so they can't chase you down immediately. That may mean waiting several fights.

Patience.
that is the rough outline of my plan.. minus the portable hole, which is both almost impossible to find and a good deal above my budget. our main sources of magic items are the solamnic knight and the black robe herself.
It would be hilarious if I could manage to convince them to pool our resources to buy a portable hole only to use it against them. Pulling that one off however, might actually cause my friends to use some harsh words, that night :smallbiggrin:
I hadn't thought of the fly option, and it might be unobtainable... I'll have to check with the DM

[Arbane]

This is a brilliant plan, and I'm sure the the players will talk about it forever. After you're done, let us know how the three sessions of vetting for your NEXT character goes.

[JeenLeen]

As others have stated, this seems a bad idea even if the DM is cool with it. Would the artifact vanishing ruin the campaign, or your PC turn into an NPC-foe since the party has to track him down? While the initial 'screw-over' may be fun (at least for you, maybe for group), the rest sounds boring and aggravating (for you and the others).
Since you don't like the PC, a better tactic (to get a fun game) might be to talk to the DM and group, have the thief leave (perhaps with some minor thievery), and have the new PC you have the time to craft to your enjoyment join the party.

That said, your methods for stealing the artifact sound pretty good. In-combat is probably safer, as allies will be distracted and if you vanish/invis, they will likely think you are still helping until you are far away. Scrolls of Dimension Door could hasten your retreat, if you have enough Use Magic Device.

[dehro]

As others have stated, this seems a bad idea even if the DM is cool with it. Would the artifact vanishing ruin the campaign, or your PC turn into an NPC-foe since the party has to track him down?

AFAIK no.. this is the situation:
we were sent to retrieve a crystal skull of magical properties, which can be used to focus the power of magic and enhance said power multiple times.
We wasted some time retrieving it, which meant we were intercepted by an opposing party who trounced us and made off with said crystal.

The way the crystal works is you need other artifacts to fuel the Crystal's power. So the race is on to secure as many artifacts and prevent them from being used against us. we've retrieved a couple, and possibly missed one or two.. losing one more item may spell disaster.. or it may not be of much consequence.. but that's something we might find out only in a year of gaming or so.

[EldritchWeaver]

Normally I'd advise you not to screw over your fellow party members. In this case I'd say they had it coming and you've got your DM's blessing anyway. I'd advice you to not kill other PCs.

Why did they have it coming? Because they didn't vet him?

To OP: Why are you two levels lower? Will you be two levels lower again? Was this a reason why you don't like your character?

[jmax]

If your character has Sneak Attack, you can use it with a sap to deal non-lethal damage with your sneak attack in an attempt to knock the wizard unconscious. Ask your DM if you can deliver a non-lethal "coup-de-grace" with it that would double everything except the sneak attack dice (which is going to be 1d6 plus STR plus whatever other damage bonuses you have) and force a Fort save (same DC of 10+damage, but calculated with non-lethal damage) against unconsciousness instead of death. The rules do not specifically allow this, but it's a very reasonable house-rule.

Then use that while the wizard is sleeping to keep him sleeping while you rifle through his possessions looking for the artifact. If you want to be truly obnoxious, you can also steal his spellbook, but that practically forces the wizard to come after you (which you may want) and may set off an alarm if the wizard is sufficiently paranoid about protecting his spellbook (and he should be). The wizard likely has more hit points (4+6d4+7*Con) than the (non-lethal) damage you'll deal with your sneak attack (2d6+2*STR +3d6 sneak attack), so the Fort save against unconsciousness is essential for this to work reliably. Otherwise you'll just have a really cranky wizard.

If you're feeling particularly lucky and have the necessary materials, you could try to fake your own death by leaving a mess of blood and scraps of your clothes to make it look like you've been snatched and eaten by some vicious animal. If you take nothing but the skull and they fall for it (which is admittedly unlikely unless you have a handy fresh corpse and something to make plausible-looking tracks), they might not even chase you. Whether that's a good thing is up to you.

[Zanos]

Why did they have it coming? Because they didn't vet him?

To OP: Why are you two levels lower? Will you be two levels lower again? Was this a reason why you don't like your character?
Yeah, I tend to not vet other PCs in my group unless there's a history of shenanigans. Spending two hours strapping ever new PC into a torture chair/zone of truth/mind probe tends to get tiresome after a little while. Playing a character that's at least mostly beneficial to the party is kind of a core part of the contract necessary to even play the game. Otherwise, just play another game if you want 4 friends to meet for a drink and they all have snipers on each other.

[Mutazoia]

Okay, since a few others have posted the "I think this is a bad idea" bits, I'll skip that part and go straight into the "but if your going to do it, do it right" section....

Do you grab one artifact at a time and then take it somewhere before heading out to find the next one? If so, rob that place.

Regardless, how does the wizard carry the artifact(s) once obtained? Steal THAT.

Doing it on your guard watch is probably the best and easiest chance you are going to get, as doing it in combat makes the assumption that what ever you are fighting is going to leave you alone while you do your bit of burglary. On guard duty, we can assume that, there being two of you, you will each be on opposite sides of the camp, most likely outside of the firelight so as not to spoil your eyesight, and looking away from the camp. As the party sleeps, and your watch buddy looks out into the darkness on one side, you grab the wizards pack and slip out the other side.

If you want to be a phalace, you can try to K.O. your watch buddy, so he doesn't wake up the next watch shift, and everybody sleeps through the night, giving yourself ample time to get a good head start (with the possibility of them getting attacked in their sleep to boot).

If you want to be a giant phalace, use the opportunity to coup de grace the rest of the party in their sleep, so they can't track you down. Naturally, this will hit the "reset" button on the campaign, and probably earn you an ass-kicking IRL.

On a side note, have you considered having your rogue try to seduce the wizard and then stealing an artifact after a "night of passion".... screw her, then screw her over?

[dehro]

Why did they have it coming? Because they didn't vet him?

To OP: Why are you two levels lower? Will you be two levels lower again? Was this a reason why you don't like your character?

2 levels lower because a couple of people in our party were cursed and level drained by that amount and we start a new character at the lowest level of the party (or one below if we're all at the same level).

They basically walked right up to the nearest bloke in the tavern, asked him upright if he was a traveling sort and invited him to join pretty much no questions asked, he's a rogue, kind of looks the part, and they didn't even bother to ask his name, and still wouldn't have done that had I not pointed it out Aoutside off the game...Also, I gave them 2 different names (I actually first introduced myself, when asked with "I give them a random name" on account of how I was still writing up my character sheet, and when another party member asked my name I actually said "I give her a different random name" and nobody even flinched).
If that isn't asking for it, I don't know what is.

The reason why I don't like the character is I don't like his odds with this party and want to try and build something that can aspire to a leadership position, something I can't do with a hastily cobbled together rogue. I prefer to build something starting from a background, which requires more time than I had.

That and I quite like the notion of, for once being a total disruption, for however briefly.
I don't want to single handedly ruin the campaign or any specific character's future in the game, so I probably won't nick the mage her spellbook, but messing with it is quite a dastardly idea and can buy me time to slip away.
Another idea is to cut everybody's saddle straps but mine, or cut the horses lose, to gain a couple of hours... (our party losing horses all over Solamnia is becoming something of a running gag, literally)
Once I'm in the wind, I'm more than happy to hand the character sheet over to the DM to tear up or, if the he prefers to, continue playing him as recurring villain or simple runaway thief, whether everybody else catches up with him or not....and move on to the next character.

[Mutazoia]

2 levels lower because a couple of people in our party were cursed and level drained by that amount and we start a new character at the lowest level of the party (or one below if we're all at the same level).

They basically walked right up to the nearest bloke in the tavern, asked him upright if he was a traveling sort and invited him to join pretty much no questions asked, he's a rogue, kind of looks the part, and they didn't even bother to ask his name, and still wouldn't have done that had I not pointed it out Aoutside off the game...Also, I gave them 2 different names (I actually first introduced myself, when asked with "I give them a random name" on account of how I was still writing up my character sheet, and when another party member asked my name I actually said "I give her a different random name" and nobody even flinched).
If that isn't asking for it, I don't know what is.

The reason why I don't like the character is I don't like his odds with this party and want to try and build something that can aspire to a leadership position, something I can't do with a hastily cobbled together rogue. I prefer to build something starting from a background, which requires more time than I had.

That and I quite like the notion of, for once being a total disruption, for however briefly.
I don't want to single handedly ruin the campaign or any specific character's future in the game, so I probably won't nick the mage her spellbook, but messing with it is quite a dastardly idea and can buy me time to slip away.
Another idea is to cut everybody's saddle straps but mine, or cut the horses lose, to gain a couple of hours... (our party losing horses all over Solamnia is becoming something of a running gag, literally)
Once I'm in the wind, I'm more than happy to hand the character sheet over to the DM to tear up or, if the he prefers to, continue playing him as recurring villain or simple runaway thief, whether everybody else catches up with him or not....and move on to the next character.

I would suggest taking the time you are putting into this thread, to make a new character that you really WANT to play. Honestly, you should have just gone ahead and did that in the first place, even if it meant missing out on a session. Once you get your new character crafted to your liking, go to your DM and let him know that you want to swap characters, because the rogue was made in haste, and you really are not having fun playing him. Explain that you would have preferred to have more time to make a good character, and felt too rushed the first time.

This way, the two of you can collaborate on how to pull the switch that won't ruin the campaign, and have the added bonus of having your DMs seal of approval when the other players WTF you after your rogue screws them over, and can say that it was an intentional plot point to justify the in-game change over.

[Zanos]

They probably let that stuff slide because they're trying to get you in the game so you can actually play.

[dehro]

I would suggest taking the time you are putting into this thread, to make a new character that you really WANT to play. Honestly, you should have just gone ahead and did that in the first place, even if it meant missing out on a session. Once you get your new character crafted to your liking, go to your DM and let him know that you want to swap characters, because the rogue was made in haste, and you really are not having fun playing him. Explain that you would have preferred to have more time to make a good character, and felt too rushed the first time.

This way, the two of you can collaborate on how to pull the switch that won't ruin the campaign, and have the added bonus of having your DMs seal of approval when the other players WTF you after your rogue screws them over, and can say that it was an intentional plot point to justify the in-game change over.
That's pretty much already agreed upon between me and the DM.
I'll come to the next session with two character sheets.
The DM will be rolling dice for my new character tomorrow and I'll start working on one. I could even make him an aspiring inquisitor, or a legionaire in hot pursuit of the turncoat thief, justifying my sudden appearance.
All it takes, to lend the swap credibility is for the rogue to drop a letter (or have it on his corpse) warning him of the pursuit and of the identity of the guy trailing him.
Whether the opportunity to do the dirty deed will occur in that session or in a subsequent one remains to be seen.
As for the bolded part, if it's all the same to you, I'd rather play than sit on my thumbs for 4 hours watching others play... and when I put it together,I didn't know yet it would be a placeholder character

[Mutazoia]

As for the bolded part, if it's all the same to you, I'd rather play than sit on my thumbs for 4 hours watching others play... and when I put it together,I didn't know yet it would be a placeholder character

To each his own. Personally, I think that most of that time would have been taken up building your character, while the rest of the table carried on with the game. By the time you were done, the wait wouldn't have been as long, or you could have joined in then. Rushing things got you to where you are now.

But if you prefer to rush a character and then justify swapping it almost immediately, that's your call.

[dehro]

I'm super slow at building a character and would not have made it in time to play the rest of the afternoon...since it was the last game of the year I wanted to participate.
Anyhoo, the DM told me that the next artifact won't come about for 3-5 sessions, so I'm going to both take my time creating the following character, and enjoy this current character for as long as it takes to get there.

[johnbragg]

1. Guys, he's cleared this with the DM.

DM is rolling for his new character, presumably rolling Stealth checks as the Inquisitor tracks the party (as far as the party can tell.) Inquisitor is actually tracking thief, but I don't see how the party figures that out.

2. This is how their group plays sometimes (previous campaign where one PC ended up a Lord of Hell in the epilogue.) So this looks like a gamer-tale-in-the-making. HAve a beer and pass the pretzels.

They have more fun with a hastily-built-thief who does something memorable than with a carefully planned build who does exactly what's expected.

[dehro]

thank you :)