Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

[Hazeeb]

The story here is that the Paladin in my group was facing a minotaur and kicking ass but the battle turned on him. He called out to the gods for assistance and rolled a CRIT FAIL 1. Rather than saying he heard no reply, I opted to let him HAVE the blessing. He killed the minotaur and felt really good about being a divine class.

So now the plan for this player will be for him to get REALLY involved with his deity. I told him he stared experiencing dreams that night and to tell me what they are next session. His divine connection grows stronger every level, as you do when you are a paladin. HOWEVER, I have decided that an evil deity not only heard his call for aid, but now wishes to corrupt him in its service.

Problem: How do I mechanically handle an evil god PRETENDING to be a good god when it comes to alignment and the various mechanics. Its easy to brush that aside on some level but this is going to be a pivotal moment later when the big reveal happens and the deity reveals themselves to be a horrid perversion of everything that they THINK they hold dear. i.e. little perversions over time that eventually build into a terrible dogma.

[King of Nowhere]

The story here is that the Paladin in my group was facing a minotaur and kicking ass but the battle turned on him. He called out to the gods for assistance and rolled a CRIT FAIL 1. Rather than saying he heard no reply, I opted to let him HAVE the blessing. He killed the minotaur and felt really good about being a divine class.

So now the plan for this player will be for him to get REALLY involved with his deity. I told him he stared experiencing dreams that night and to tell me what they are next session. His divine connection grows stronger every level, as you do when you are a paladin. HOWEVER, I have decided that an evil deity not only heard his call for aid, but now wishes to corrupt him in its service.

Problem: How do I mechanically handle an evil god PRETENDING to be a good god when it comes to alignment and the various mechanics. Its easy to brush that aside on some level but this is going to be a pivotal moment later when the big reveal happens and the deity reveals themselves to be a horrid perversion of everything that they THINK they hold dear. i.e. little perversions over time that eventually build into a terrible dogma.

Seems a pretty nice idea, so the deity should try to corrupt the paladin steb by step. Start by giving him instruction to be ruthless in battle. Persuade him to murder a few prisoners, because "they are too dangerous to keep". Go on to persuade him that it's fine to deal collateral damage to civilians when needed. I can see the party planning an assault to an orc village and the paladin going "my god told me it's fine if we fireball from afar without concern for elders and children, because going it would be too dangerous". From there, try to turn him into an extremist who will cast detect evil on a crowded alley and kill all those that blip. Incidentally, the player should by now figure out something is wrong.
Make sure that he can atone if he figures it out in time.

[Oracle71]

Start out by giving the paladin "special quests" that seem like normal paladin quests, but secretly serve the evil god's interests. Then start the corruption process by, as King of Nowere suggested, encouraging him to be ruthless against those of the evil races, and allowing collateral damage because "that's just the fortunes of war."

[Mike Miller]

Alternatively, try using this take on Pelor: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php%3F443306-quot-Pelor-the-Burning-Hate-quot-(from-Wizards-forum)&ved=0ahUKEwiyq_bKua_YAhXC7CYKHZnICvMQFgglMAA&usg=AOvVaw3siVRXepudtHklquX6AsnM

[frogglesmash]

Only advice I've got is to not do the whole "trick the Paladin into falling without warning" thing, unless the player is okay with it.

[GrayDeath]

Sounds interesting.

IF the Player knows about and is OK with something like that. Otherwise its a really really ****ty move to be avoided like the plague.

[khadgar567]

conjures popcorn and some coke and watches. this would be interesting

[Arbane]

Only advice I've got is to not do the whole "trick the Paladin into falling without warning" thing, unless the player is okay with it.

What kind of carebear nonsense is this? If the player didn't want their character concept involuntarily warped beyond regonition, they wouldn't be in a game. The player knew perfectly well what they were getting into, as the only reason to play Paladins is so they can fall. The GM is the player's eyes and ears, so they are totally entitled to feel smugly superior when they 'outwit' the players by lying to them constantly.

[WesleyVos]

I've actually done something like this before in a game, albeit with a cleric whose god went bad. The corruption needs to be very, very subtle, probably over years and years. Remember, you're dealing with the timeline of a god - to them, a hundred years is like the blink of an eye. So make very slow, subtle moves over the course of the entire campaign. Executing prisoners is a good start, particularly evil prisoners. Then throw in a few morally ambiguous prisoners. Then begin suggesting that everyone is evil because everyone commits evil actions. Get them believing that. Then, once they're good and ready, throw a morally good person in front of them with some false accusation. Try to get them to dispense justice. Then, if you can swing it, have them aid in the execution of a party member. That should be sufficient to make them fall.

Then give them the choice - continue in service to the new god (think Darth Vader, without the corner plunge into CE madness that followed) or quest for atonement (Revan's path, from Knights of the Old Republic, for example). Either way, this becomes a major subplot and possibly leads to encounters for the whole group without screwing up the player's character too much.

[PhantasyPen]

Only advice I've got is to not do the whole "trick the Paladin into falling without warning" thing, unless the player is okay with it.

To be fair, I don't think this paladin is about to "fall" so much as "get dragged screaming into the void they swore to fight"

[King of Nowhere]

To be fair, I don't think this paladin is about to "fall" so much as "get dragged screaming into the void they swore to fight"

Well, if his "deity" encourages him to do un-paladinish stuff, the player should realize it. if he does not, he deserves to fall, and his subsequent atonement could make for a good story.

Question is, what is the actual patron god of the paladin doing? I expect whatever LG god the paladin actually worship will try to protect him, show him the truth.
You could have an encounter where another paladin tells him the truth, and your player has to decide if he trusts this other paladin or if this guy is actually a bad guy trying to deceive him. It would also be a good way to "not screw up the player without big warning signs".

[Falontani]

Pazuzu from Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss sounds like a good "deity" to use for this. He loves corrupting creatures and he has the power to do so.

ps, I'm new and don't know how to do the quote things that people often do around here when quoting the book, so I'll just say a page number: 77

[Zaq]

There’s two issues here. The first is the Evil god pretending to be a Good god. That’s mostly been handled pretty well by the discussion so far.

The second issue is the Evil god pretending to be THIS GUY’S specific god. If the Paladin was actually devoted to a specific deity before (instead of just generically LG, which is totally possible but far from guaranteed), I don’t see much of an elegant way for the Evil god to pretend to be whoever he was devoted to before, unless you’ve got some convincing reason why this Evil deity would directly interfere with a mortal but that mortal’s sworn divine patron (who is probably at least nominally invested in their own capital-P Paladins) wouldn’t get involved somehow. If you’ve made the gods be distant beings who pretty much don’t ever interfere directly in their followers’ lives (even the members of “divine classes”), then maybe this is just a powerful but non-deific fiend who’s a little bit more involved in flesh-and-blood matters than an actual god would be, but otherwise, I can see a player calling BS on their actual god not stepping in somehow.

[Arbane]

I can see a player calling BS on their actual god not stepping in somehow.

Good Is Stupid. This is proven by the fact that only Good people try to be Paladins in the first place.

[Hazeeb]

Only advice I've got is to not do the whole "trick the Paladin into falling without warning" thing, unless the player is okay with it.

At the end of the day my intention is not really to get him to fall. I want him to question this god (in due time) that grants him spells and power. What I want is the player reaction, that dawning moment of comprehension that they are a GOOD character following an EVIL god. What they do next is up to them.


Sounds interesting.

IF the Player knows about and is OK with something like that. Otherwise its a really really ****ty move to be avoided like the plague.

I agree. Tricks for the intent of being a prick aren't good in my book. Tricks for the intent of character growth or story line however is warranted in my DM toolbox.


conjures popcorn and some coke and watches. this would be interesting

My world is here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544855-Homebrew-The-Pyrian-Sphere-(Questions-opinions-and-ideas-welcome)

If you feel it would be wise to start a journal of the party's adventures I would be happy to begin one.


What kind of carebear nonsense is this? If the player didn't want their character concept involuntarily warped beyond regonition, they wouldn't be in a game. The player knew perfectly well what they were getting into, as the only reason to play Paladins is so they can fall. The GM is the player's eyes and ears, so they are totally entitled to feel smugly superior when they 'outwit' the players by lying to them constantly.

To be fair, I warned each of them that this world hosts the Lovecraft mythos; the world is cruel and the gods don't have to care. I constantly do things to surprise them with and shove grit into their teeth and under their nails.


I've actually done something like this before in a game, albeit with a cleric whose god went bad. The corruption needs to be very, very subtle, probably over years and years. Remember, you're dealing with the timeline of a god - to them, a hundred years is like the blink of an eye. So make very slow, subtle moves over the course of the entire campaign. Executing prisoners is a good start, particularly evil prisoners. Then throw in a few morally ambiguous prisoners. Then begin suggesting that everyone is evil because everyone commits evil actions. Get them believing that. Then, once they're good and ready, throw a morally good person in front of them with some false accusation. Try to get them to dispense justice. Then, if you can swing it, have them aid in the execution of a party member. That should be sufficient to make them fall.

Then give them the choice - continue in service to the new god (think Darth Vader, without the corner plunge into CE madness that followed) or quest for atonement (Revan's path, from Knights of the Old Republic, for example). Either way, this becomes a major subplot and possibly leads to encounters for the whole group without screwing up the player's character too much.

I think a slow build up of worship is a good idea. Make him a missionary and use him to build a new faith, perhaps even head of a church, only to have the word of God be something that doesn't align with his personal dogma. I think it will be necessary to relax the alignment restriction on paladin in order to make this work.


To be fair, I don't think this paladin is about to "fall" so much as "get dragged screaming into the void they swore to fight"

You have penned the theme of my world. You might just survive if you played.


Well, if his "deity" encourages him to do un-paladinish stuff, the player should realize it. if he does not, he deserves to fall, and his subsequent atonement could make for a good story.

Question is, what is the actual patron god of the paladin doing? I expect whatever LG god the paladin actually worship will try to protect him, show him the truth.
You could have an encounter where another paladin tells him the truth, and your player has to decide if he trusts this other paladin or if this guy is actually a bad guy trying to deceive him. It would also be a good way to "not screw up the player without big warning signs".

The group will be safe under my wong from his actions, but NPCs and monsters will not. Even story essential ones. I must get a god written up to make use of a carefully worded dogma.


Pazuzu from Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss sounds like a good "deity" to use for this. He loves corrupting creatures and he has the power to do so.

ps, I'm new and don't know how to do the quote things that people often do around here when quoting the book, so I'll just say a page number: 77

I love the idea of Pazuzu. Especially the last bit:

Pazuzu might also answer anyone who uttered his name, or one of his aliases, three times in succession. This type of summons formed a link between the demon lord and the victim, across any distance or the planes. This link provided Pazuzu with the ability to read the thoughts of the summoner, determine their intentions, and appear directly beside them at will. Pazuzu typically granted aid at much cost to the victim, and would grant this aid repeatedly, establishing a dependence on Pazuzu's services. Through one victim, the Corrupter could reach others, spreading through whole communities.

Maybe I can cherry pick this for use and make a custom diety.


There’s two issues here. The first is the Evil god pretending to be a Good god. That’s mostly been handled pretty well by the discussion so far.

The second issue is the Evil god pretending to be THIS GUY’S specific god. If the Paladin was actually devoted to a specific deity before (instead of just generically LG, which is totally possible but far from guaranteed), I don’t see much of an elegant way for the Evil god to pretend to be whoever he was devoted to before, unless you’ve got some convincing reason why this Evil deity would directly interfere with a mortal but that mortal’s sworn divine patron (who is probably at least nominally invested in their own capital-P Paladins) wouldn’t get involved somehow. If you’ve made the gods be distant beings who pretty much don’t ever interfere directly in their followers’ lives (even the members of “divine classes”), then maybe this is just a powerful but non-deific fiend who’s a little bit more involved in flesh-and-blood matters than an actual god would be, but otherwise, I can see a player calling BS on their actual god not stepping in somehow.

This is a well point and its my fault the paladin is in this situation. I've been avoiding the gods and pantheons in my world. I opted to let him play the class and have access to the powers that be but the specific moment he finds his faith was/is meant to be party of a greater story.


Good Is Stupid. This is proven by the fact that only Good people try to be Paladins in the first place.

"Good is Good, but Bad is Better."

If the player renounces his faith and quests to find a new god when the time comes, I'll reward him with a holy war.


Alternatively, try using this take on Pelor: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php%3F443306-quot-Pelor-the-Burning-Hate-quot-(from-Wizards-forum)&ved=0ahUKEwiyq_bKua_YAhXC7CYKHZnICvMQFgglMAA&usg=AOvVaw3siVRXepudtHklquX6AsnM

Ooooooh that is brilliant! I need to have more of this. Nearly everything in Pyria is either a perversion or swapped around from the regular idea of DnD. My players keep stumbling over the idea that cyclops were the ones that spawned most races and Satyrs are the Swiss bankers of the world and hold the monopoloy on teleportation magic; don't even get me started on the gorgons.

[Hazeeb]

So I did some thinking and wanted this god to be grey enough that the player would have no reason to lash out later and may, in fact, enjoy continuing to serve. I took some great material from other gods and rolled it into her.


Eos
Titles The Burning Claw, The Forgotton Flame, The Shining Scourge, The Lion's Teeth
Home Unknown/Forgotten
Alignment Neutral Evil
Areas of Concern Warfare, The Sun, Pride and Deception
Worshipers Scattered desert tribes
Domains War, Sun, Strength, Trickery, Lion
Subdomains Tactics, Thirst, Resolve, Heroism, Deception
Favored Weapon Heavy mace
Symbol Lion jaws around the sun or three black claws surrounded by an orange flame.
Sacred Animals Lion
Sacred Colors Yellow, orange

Eosis the exception to the rule that the sun is associated with benevolent deities and a force for good in the world. For those that fear the sun or enjoy its capability for destruction, the worship of Eos beckons.

Eos came into power during The Long Night, during the millennia long conflict against the aberrations. Worshiped primarily by desert nomads and those calling for light in the darkness, her power remained solid among those faithful until the Age of Dragons. After that point dragon worship and a newer, gentler gods came into power and Eos was slowly forgotten by all but her most zealous followers and the clerics of Bastet, with whom she regards as a bitter rival among cats. Eos is desperate to come back into worship and frequently "assumes" the place of those calling for divine aid in order to convert them to her worship and regrow her faith.

Eos is a cruel god and revels in planning the defeat of her foes, often demanding captured heretics be burned alive or staked out in the desert sun to die of dehydration. She despises undead because they are often weakened or destroyed by the sun and cannot offer her proper worship. She is a proud creature and brooks no insult to her person OR worshipers. Those found guilty of this offense find themselves attacked by a pack of large predatory cats within days.

Eos's head and lower body is of a golden lion with flaming paws, with her midriff that of a dark, humanoid female. Intense light is emitted from her eyes and mouth and her voice booms whenever she deigns to speak. Eos's signature weapon is a heavy mace with a small sun acting as its head.

Eos might also answer anyone who utters her name, or one of his aliases, three times in succession. This type of summons forms a link between the Eos and the caller, across any distance or the planes. This link provided Eos with the ability to read the thoughts of the summoner, determine their intentions, and appear directly beside them at will. Eos typically grants aid at much cost to the caller, and would grant this aid repeatedly, establishing a dependence on Eos's services. These vary from simple requests such as providing a divine source of light when surrounded by darkness, or far more direct such as summoning a pack of lions to fight for the worshipper.


SUGGESTIONS??

[Rynjin]

All I can imagine now is that the Paladin has some kind of accent and ended up screaming "Pl-eos help me!" three times in succession.

[denthor]

Allow the Paladin a chance send conflicting dreams. One of falling his deity one of standing in a valley new fun deity.

Send a priest of the new deity to a location where the Paladin is staying. This priest can say his prayers at noon in the sun light if allowed to join the party. if not allowed to join party have a second member of the priest party suggest a joint effort to go on a mission to other party members that can not detect evil. If they do not want to become one party suggest camping 75 feet apart so that it is just out of dark vision range and hearing distance but still a good reaction time to help. Everybody needs some privacy.

Next have the priest heal the paladin to spur him on to more risky behavior and create that special bond of trust.

As it progresses have the priest insist on small things that are morally grey. Have a thief steal provisions for example. Do you let her go or hunt them down and execute? After that have a flying manticore attack the party when it is brought down suggest that the meat could be eaten. eating for survival is good eating an intelligent being is grey. One hundred pounds of meat for two parties of # unknown goes a long way.

In the adventure have people beg for mercy from both groups the evil one first. They get cut down does the Paladin follow suit?

Nothing I have stated is anything serious and all player choice actions. You are setting a table telling a story but the Paladin and his buddies are in charge and can act as they will.

[Hazeeb]

All I can imagine now is that the Paladin has some kind of accent and ended up screaming "Pl-eos help me!" three times in succession.

HA!


Allow the Paladin a chance send conflicting dreams. One of falling his deity one of standing in a valley new fun deity.

Send a priest of the new deity to a location where the Paladin is staying. This priest can say his prayers at noon in the sun light if allowed to join the party. if not allowed to join party have a second member of the priest party suggest a joint effort to go on a mission to other party members that can not detect evil. If they do not want to become one party suggest camping 75 feet apart so that it is just out of dark vision range and hearing distance but still a good reaction time to help. Everybody needs some privacy.

Next have the priest heal the paladin to spur him on to more risky behavior and create that special bond of trust.

As it progresses have the priest insist on small things that are morally grey. Have a thief steal provisions for example. Do you let her go or hunt them down and execute? After that have a flying manticore attack the party when it is brought down suggest that the meat could be eaten. eating for survival is good eating an intelligent being is grey. One hundred pounds of meat for two parties of # unknown goes a long way.

In the adventure have people beg for mercy from both groups the evil one first. They get cut down does the Paladin follow suit?

Nothing I have stated is anything serious and all player choice actions. You are setting a table telling a story but the Paladin and his buddies are in charge and can act as they will.

The Paladin is currently LG and the new god i drafted is NE.

[ericgrau]

You're employing an entire god to screw the player over. Don't do this. It's not fun.

At minimum the paladin wouldn't be the first and there would be some kind of larger plot for him to discover with other paladins and clerics getting screwed over first. The deity shouldn't even be interested in the paladin individually unless he's level 15+. If not level 25+.

[Hazeeb]

You're employing an entire god to screw the player over. Don't do this. It's not fun.

At minimum the paladin wouldn't be the first and there would be some kind of larger plot for him to discover with other paladins and clerics getting screwed over first. The deity shouldn't even be interested in the paladin individually unless he's level 15+. If not level 25+.

I think you haven't really understood the point of this thread.

Some background: the paladin is facing down an armored minotaur at level one with his party. It looks rough and he is asking for wiggle room. I ask him squarely "how badly do you want this divine blessing." He replied with "i want to survive". That was enough justification for me to have him roll and utter a prayer. He rolls a natural 1. Instead if a straight fail i felt it was a better story mechanic that he succeeded
Because something other than good answered him.

[Aka-chan]

One thing to keep in mind is that Evil isn't one big happy family. Eos may well have rivals/enemies among the Evil and Neutral gods as well as the Good--so in the initial stages of her plan, she could send her shiny new paladin on missions that won't set off any alarm bells. Her hatred of undead could be particularly good for this. The paladin won't find anything odd about his god tasking him with taking out a pack of ghouls, a vampire, or a necromancer.

[ericgrau]

I think you haven't really understood the point of this thread.

Some background: the paladin is facing down an armored minotaur at level one with his party. It looks rough and he is asking for wiggle room. I ask him squarely "how badly do you want this divine blessing." He replied with "i want to survive". That was enough justification for me to have him roll and utter a prayer. He rolls a natural 1. Instead if a straight fail i felt it was a better story mechanic that he succeeded
Because something other than good answered him.

So what prophecy is the paladin a part of that makes this evil deity think he will ever make it past level 1?

[Bohandas]

This reminds me of a bit from the Simpsons episode "Behind the Laughter"

Narrator: "The simpsons had started out on a wing and a prayer, but now that wing was on fire and the prayer had been answered by Satan"

[GrayDeath]

Hmmm, Level 1?

In that case I would not do it, unless you ahve a very good explanation for why the God(dess) is doing it AND the player is all fired up about this (he has to know, as said above).

I somehow thought this was a mid to high Level paladin....

[Hazeeb]

So what prophecy is the paladin a part of that makes this evil deity think he will ever make it past level 1?

As a matter of fact he is now level 2! I give all players one Ex Machina in my world for death (before level 3). While the Paladin hasn't had to use his yet, he made it very clear that a direction of divine class is his goal.

As for prophecy? Those are easy to manufacture and make vague enough to work with. If its necessary I'll craft one for him to discover later.


This reminds me of a bit from the Simpsons episode "Behind the Laughter"

Narrator: "The simpsons had started out on a wing and a prayer, but now that wing was on fire and the prayer had been answered by Satan"

Love that episode.


Hmmm, Level 1?

In that case I would not do it, unless you ahve a very good explanation for why the God(dess) is doing it AND the player is all fired up about this (he has to know, as said above).

I somehow thought this was a mid to high Level paladin....

This is for character growth. We can't blindly accept help and pretend there are no consequences. Giving players a chance to either confront or embrace something in this scenario allows for story and role play that keep the game interesting and engaging.


One thing to keep in mind is that Evil isn't one big happy family. Eos may well have rivals/enemies among the Evil and Neutral gods as well as the Good--so in the initial stages of her plan, she could send her shiny new paladin on missions that won't set off any alarm bells. Her hatred of undead could be particularly good for this. The paladin won't find anything odd about his god tasking him with taking out a pack of ghouls, a vampire, or a necromancer.

Now THAT is a good idea. I believe this could work quite nicely since he's low level and (so far) shows a knack for combat in game.

[DMVerdandi]

Not to be a killjoy, but Paladins don't gain their powers from deities, or even the idea that they are acting as an intermediary of said deities, but simply from being lawful good. They are powered by the alignment itself, unbodied and pure.
They can worship deities, but it offers them no more benefit than a fighter worshiping Kord, or Ares. It's a choice and an unnecessary[mechanical] one.

If he was requesting this, it would be fine, but it seems like both he and you are slightly off bullseye.


If it works for you AND the player, my point is moot, because there are divine intervention rules in deities and demigods, but if he thinks that his powers come from worship of a deity, he's technically wrong. It's from being righteous and having a code. That code might be the tenents of a lawful good religion, but they come from the internal emotional connection to those ideals, rather than an outsider.



If you told him that it was a dark god from the jump and he made the choice, well, then you have the option to explore possibly his paladin levels being forfeit, and him taking his next level in cleric of said deity, but just going for the switcheroo is kind of ...bleh


If this were 4e, then I'd be wrong though. They definitely align themselves with deities/religions for their powers. You get more paladin of X there.

[Sam K]

I think you can do corruption better than "fireballing a few orcs" - especially with the direction you are going in with Eos.

Eos is a deity of pride and warfare among other things, right? So perhaps encourage the paladin to be an "example to others" by showing off the glory of goodness (and granting some minor boons to the paladin for proper public display of awesomeness). Pride isn't evil, but it DOES go before fall :) Like it was previously suggested, have Eos guide the paladin towards her enemies amongst the gods of evil. Preferably infiltrators/cultists that hide in normal society. Then, once the paladin uncovers the worshipers of darkness, you have some interesting options. For example:

Have Eos encourage the paladin to lead a "peoples crusade" against evil, claiming that people must learn to stand on their own and can't be forever dependent on a handful of defenders. This makes some kind of sense, but in reality it will cause the loss of lots of civilians that had no business being on a crusade, not to mention making the survivors more brutal and likely to engage in further warfare.

Are there surviving enemies from the crusade? They must be made an example of! Swift and relatively painless execution is too good for them, make a show of it, where they are tried in a mock trial and executed in public after being dragged around for everyone to see. In short, try to get the paladin to act as a self righteous bully that encourages people getting themselves killed - all in the name of good. Much more interesting than frying a few elderly orcs (that had it coming anyway!).

[Nibbens]

Interestingly enough, paladins (at least in PF) don't get their powers from a specific deity. They get it from "the power of goodness" or some rubbish. It is perfectly legitimate for a paladin to offer token worship to an evil god, as long as he never commits an unlawful or evil act, he'd be fine. Of course, the god should be calling for his follower to commit evil (or whatever the alignment of the god might be) acts, but the Paladins choice to follow the gods call, is his own.

A good way to think about this is for the paladin to look upon his god as like a racist uncle - he loves him because he's family, but would never follow his tenants. So the paladin listens to the gods rants, and tolerates his attitude, but knows the god is wrong, and does good anyway.

So, i think it should be completely obvious the first time your evil deity tells your pally to do something evil, he should know that something's wrong. If not, then continue the god's quest to corrupt him. When he realizes that the god is actually evil - Do not cause a fall. Allow the pally to retain his powers and seek an atonement if he's committed several questionable acts. (Lets face it, pallys operate in black and white and the world is not a black and white place. Catch 22s and impossible to win situations exist. I think pallys should seek atonement every so often regardless of how good they've been - no one is perfect and making good choices often get people killed anyway).

If the player choses to fully turn to the evil god, it should be a knowing act. The player and the paladin should be aware of it long before it happens. It should not be a surprise, but a calculated decision. At some point, (not anytime soon) when your player starts to suspect something, the Dm should tell the player what's going on, and offer the player a choice - Chose to go the route of the god, or turn away and seek atonement. Both should enhance the story and have very little affect on the way mechanics go, until/unless the paladin/player ultimately decides to take the fall.
If the player decides to turn, then make the atonement meaningful and fun for all the players involved. Maybe a quest or side mission. I dunno, use your DM skills to make it an enjoyable part of the story.

The fall should never be a punishment. The fall and/or atonement should be a story that engages everyone.

[Yogibear41]

Not to be a killjoy, but Paladins don't gain their powers from deities, or even the idea that they are acting as an intermediary of said deities, but simply from being lawful good. They are powered by the alignment itself, unbodied and pure.



Just because its true in your game doesn't mean it true in every game. Paladins specifically get their powers from a deity in our game for example, although with how we work divine spells they could also gain power from outsiders, since they only gain up to 4th level spells.

[ericgrau]

Just because its true in your game doesn't mean it true in every game. Paladins specifically get their powers from a deity in our game for example, although with how we work divine spells they could also gain power from outsiders, since they only gain up to 4th level spells.

Well he means that's the default. Deity powered is a pretty reasonable house rule and one we could ask the OP about, but it's not the rules. I checked when I made my paladin of Cthulhu.


As a matter of fact he is now level 2! I give all players one Ex Machina in my world for death (before level 3). While the Paladin hasn't had to use his yet, he made it very clear that a direction of divine class is his goal.

As for prophecy? Those are easy to manufacture and make vague enough to work with. If its necessary I'll craft one for him to discover later.
"If it's necessary"? Why exactly did the god waste his time to save an unimportant level 1 character? He better know for sure that the character will be level 15 some day and involved in a plot that will change the world.

In general this whole thing is heavy handed. With little reason for it and little player control. It's a bit railroaded. And unless your player likes being railroaded he will complain later when he gets screwed over and there's little he can do about it. If he likes it fine. If he doesn't like it he might be better off dying and making a new character.

[Hazeeb]

Not to be a killjoy, but Paladins don't gain their powers from deities, or even the idea that they are acting as an intermediary of said deities, but simply from being lawful good. They are powered by the alignment itself, unbodied and pure.
They can worship deities, but it offers them no more benefit than a fighter worshiping Kord, or Ares. It's a choice and an unnecessary[mechanical] one.

If he was requesting this, it would be fine, but it seems like both he and you are slightly off bullseye.


If it works for you AND the player, my point is moot, because there are divine intervention rules in deities and demigods, but if he thinks that his powers come from worship of a deity, he's technically wrong. It's from being righteous and having a code. That code might be the tenents of a lawful good religion, but they come from the internal emotional connection to those ideals, rather than an outsider.



If you told him that it was a dark god from the jump and he made the choice, well, then you have the option to explore possibly his paladin levels being forfeit, and him taking his next level in cleric of said deity, but just going for the switcheroo is kind of ...bleh


If this were 4e, then I'd be wrong though. They definitely align themselves with deities/religions for their powers. You get more paladin of X there.

We are exploring how this comes across in the story. My intention isn't to pull the carpet out from under their feet, its to provide an engaging story for the player. Considering that paladins and clerics are so intermingled into their faiths (gods or no) I want to make sure that engaging with this story allows him to stay interested. I want him to THINK about what this presence is and how its affecting him.


I think you can do corruption better than "fireballing a few orcs" - especially with the direction you are going in with Eos.

Eos is a deity of pride and warfare among other things, right? So perhaps encourage the paladin to be an "example to others" by showing off the glory of goodness (and granting some minor boons to the paladin for proper public display of awesomeness). Pride isn't evil, but it DOES go before fall :) Like it was previously suggested, have Eos guide the paladin towards her enemies amongst the gods of evil. Preferably infiltrators/cultists that hide in normal society. Then, once the paladin uncovers the worshipers of darkness, you have some interesting options. For example:

Have Eos encourage the paladin to lead a "peoples crusade" against evil, claiming that people must learn to stand on their own and can't be forever dependent on a handful of defenders. This makes some kind of sense, but in reality it will cause the loss of lots of civilians that had no business being on a crusade, not to mention making the survivors more brutal and likely to engage in further warfare.

Are there surviving enemies from the crusade? They must be made an example of! Swift and relatively painless execution is too good for them, make a show of it, where they are tried in a mock trial and executed in public after being dragged around for everyone to see. In short, try to get the paladin to act as a self righteous bully that encourages people getting themselves killed - all in the name of good. Much more interesting than frying a few elderly orcs (that had it coming anyway!).

NICE! Very constructive. Once he gets to a higher level this is something I'd love to put into play. Or at least the calling of the god to produce such acts.


Interestingly enough, paladins (at least in PF) don't get their powers from a specific deity. They get it from "the power of goodness" or some rubbish. It is perfectly legitimate for a paladin to offer token worship to an evil god, as long as he never commits an unlawful or evil act, he'd be fine. Of course, the god should be calling for his follower to commit evil (or whatever the alignment of the god might be) acts, but the Paladins choice to follow the gods call, is his own.

A good way to think about this is for the paladin to look upon his god as like a racist uncle - he loves him because he's family, but would never follow his tenants. So the paladin listens to the gods rants, and tolerates his attitude, but knows the god is wrong, and does good anyway.

So, i think it should be completely obvious the first time your evil deity tells your pally to do something evil, he should know that something's wrong. If not, then continue the god's quest to corrupt him. When he realizes that the god is actually evil - Do not cause a fall. Allow the pally to retain his powers and seek an atonement if he's committed several questionable acts. (Lets face it, pallys operate in black and white and the world is not a black and white place. Catch 22s and impossible to win situations exist. I think pallys should seek atonement every so often regardless of how good they've been - no one is perfect and making good choices often get people killed anyway).

If the player choses to fully turn to the evil god, it should be a knowing act. The player and the paladin should be aware of it long before it happens. It should not be a surprise, but a calculated decision. At some point, (not anytime soon) when your player starts to suspect something, the Dm should tell the player what's going on, and offer the player a choice - Chose to go the route of the god, or turn away and seek atonement. Both should enhance the story and have very little affect on the way mechanics go, until/unless the paladin/player ultimately decides to take the fall.
If the player decides to turn, then make the atonement meaningful and fun for all the players involved. Maybe a quest or side mission. I dunno, use your DM skills to make it an enjoyable part of the story.

The fall should never be a punishment. The fall and/or atonement should be a story that engages everyone.

Excellent points! Also constructive (exactly what I need) but the journey of learning what this god is, what it represents and how that affects the characters personal morals is important context. I want him to question what it means to follow a god and have faith. I've already revealed the "shape" of the avatar in a dream but beyond that all he knows about it is the name Eos. Discovery and growth are going to be key here.


Just because its true in your game doesn't mean it true in every game. Paladins specifically get their powers from a deity in our game for example, although with how we work divine spells they could also gain power from outsiders, since they only gain up to 4th level spells.


Well he means that's the default. Deity powered is a pretty reasonable house rule and one we could ask the OP about, but it's not the rules. I checked when I made my paladin of Cthulhu.


"If it's necessary"? Why exactly did the god waste his time to save an unimportant level 1 character? He better know for sure that the character will be level 15 some day and involved in a plot that will change the world.

In general this whole thing is heavy handed. With little reason for it and little player control. It's a bit railroaded. And unless your player likes being railroaded he will complain later when he gets screwed over and there's little he can do about it. If he likes it fine. If he doesn't like it he might be better off dying and making a new character.

First point: That is the most metal paladin I've ever heard of. Ia!

Second: This is a lost deity days from a ten thousand year dark age. She aided and protected those faithful when darkness smothered the world. Now she's forgotton and wishes to come back. Upon hearing a random cry into the aether from a particularly bright soul, she looks into the paladin and sees something she can use to grow her worship once again. He is going to become her tool -if- he chooses to continue following her. Hell for all I know he may get the heebie jeebies and just look for another to pledge himself to (thus why I'm focusing my lorebuilding on gods and religions now).

Third point: I ask for feedback after every session from every player and don't let them pack up until i get a like and dislike. I don't railroad but unless there is something that the party actually needs to do in order to get a story moving in the big picture sense. I don't like that kind of control. The focus here is for him to feel out how he feels about this entity and that requires actual role playing. If I can't provide that avenue as a story teller, if I can't challenge my players to expand on ideas, formulate their principles, make mistakes, be afraid, be human, mortal and frail, then why bother playing at all?

Fourth: This is the scenario that's on the table. Your opinion is noted. Constructive criticism to help me handle this in a way that benefits the player, otherwise stop posting cause your opinion isn't actually helpful beyond being an opinion. I have plenty of those myself but I'm keeping them off the table.

[Nibbens]

Excellent points! Also constructive (exactly what I need) but the journey of learning what this god is, what it represents and how that affects the characters personal morals is important context. I want him to question what it means to follow a god and have faith. I've already revealed the "shape" of the avatar in a dream but beyond that all he knows about it is the name Eos. Discovery and growth are going to be key here.

You're welcome!

And in that case, the slow reveal should be fun, and I hope you do a follow up post with the results eventually! You seem to have a good breadth of info you're tossing around, so I think you should follow your instincts here. You know your group better than we do. :D

Additional thoughts: A high enough knowledge: history/religion check could reveal info to your Pally about Eos and his tenants. Considering this is hidden info, a side quest to an ancient library to assist the check (because doing so without the library would be impossible, yada yada) for him to gain much needed info on his deity could be a fun spin. As could a search for/quest to find a church of the old god. Both of these could be interesting capstones to make a clean reveal of what Eos actually is. (But only after much slow growth and discovery, like you mention).

Also, depending on how jealous you make the god, if Eos is starved for worshipers, after he's put so much time in crafting this paladin to just the way he wants - I don't imagine the deity being to happy about your pally walking away, and might even take it personally. I see plot hooks all over this situation.

Just my two cents. lol. Good Luck!

[Calthropstu]

I have not read every post so sorry if I am repeating but:
My suggestion: the evil god has wormed its way into the paladin's abilities, not his head.

Keep the paladin as is, but have the paladin cast detect good sometimes instead of detect evil. That's all you need to do to make this paladin fall. How?

He casts detect evil to try and find the culprit of a horrendous plot but gets detect good. The evil vizier doesn't ping, but the lawful good captain of the guard does. Paladin becomes convinced the captain is the culprit and works to bring him down.

Present his party with the bandit dilemma, they call on the paladin to detect evil... bam detect good swap.

That is all you need.

[Hazeeb]

You're welcome!

And in that case, the slow reveal should be fun, and I hope you do a follow up post with the results eventually! You seem to have a good breadth of info you're tossing around, so I think you should follow your instincts here. You know your group better than we do. :D

Additional thoughts: A high enough knowledge: history/religion check could reveal info to your Pally about Eos and his tenants. Considering this is hidden info, a side quest to an ancient library to assist the check (because doing so without the library would be impossible, yada yada) for him to gain much needed info on his deity could be a fun spin. As could a search for/quest to find a church of the old god. Both of these could be interesting capstones to make a clean reveal of what Eos actually is. (But only after much slow growth and discovery, like you mention).

Also, depending on how jealous you make the god, if Eos is starved for worshipers, after he's put so much time in crafting this paladin to just the way he wants - I don't imagine the deity being to happy about your pally walking away, and might even take it personally. I see plot hooks all over this situation.

Just my two cents. lol. Good Luck!

Oooooh that is GOOD. I love forbidden knowledge quests. I really should start a game journal of my campaigns events. Is there a dedicated place for that on the forum?


I have not read every post so sorry if I am repeating but:
My suggestion: the evil god has wormed its way into the paladin's abilities, not his head.

Keep the paladin as is, but have the paladin cast detect good sometimes instead of detect evil. That's all you need to do to make this paladin fall. How?

He casts detect evil to try and find the culprit of a horrendous plot but gets detect good. The evil vizier doesn't ping, but the lawful good captain of the guard does. Paladin becomes convinced the captain is the culprit and works to bring him down.

Present his party with the bandit dilemma, they call on the paladin to detect evil... bam detect good swap.

That is all you need.

Not a bad idea actually. I think as we move further into his story that may just have a place among the monster and social encounters.

[Mordaedil]

Just throwing this on the pile of ideas, but when you start to introduce a little stronger magic items to the players, perhaps grant the paladin a holy longsword (with or without the +1 enhancement) that 10% of the time (per encounter basically, you make a d% roll while rolling initatives) it acts as an unholy sword instead, growing particularly bright when wielded against good people. This will keep it pretty subtle as well as not really working if the player decides to test it out.

Also, it only behaves this way while he wields it, anyone else wielding it or identification just reveals the holy longsword to be a holy longsword. It is his connection to the deity that triggers the change after all, and it's not even consistent enough that they can reliably test for it.

[Hazeeb]

Just throwing this on the pile of ideas, but when you start to introduce a little stronger magic items to the players, perhaps grant the paladin a holy longsword (with or without the +1 enhancement) that 10% of the time (per encounter basically, you make a d% roll while rolling initatives) it acts as an unholy sword instead, growing particularly bright when wielded against good people. This will keep it pretty subtle as well as not really working if the player decides to test it out.

Also, it only behaves this way while he wields it, anyone else wielding it or identification just reveals the holy longsword to be a holy longsword. It is his connection to the deity that triggers the change after all, and it's not even consistent enough that they can reliably test for it.

Using an item to reflect the nature of his deity is clever. Its fickle and subtle. Nice idea!

[Nibbens]

Oooooh that is GOOD. I love forbidden knowledge quests. I really should start a game journal of my campaigns events. Is there a dedicated place for that on the forum?

I, and several others, use this particular forum. lol. But I do believe there are others. Brb.

*Edit* I'm back. Many use the Central Hub as well. Here (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?30-Roleplaying-Games).

And, I'd like to throw some love to Kol. He has a project he's doing with campaign journals. I don't know if he's still active or not, but it's worth a shot. Here (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392323-Campaign-logs-archive-Story-time!).

Hope this helps

[denthor]

Would love to read a game journal. There have been a few posted by this group. In different subgroups. If the game fits in this case 3.5 you can post here

[Xuldarinar]

While often this concept is ill advised, it is supported by the game material.

From Heroes of Horror:

"A paladin has grown vicious and draconic in his interpretation of the law and is oppressing his people; he either does not realize or does not care that he is mere steps away from falling from his god’s favor. (Perhaps an evil god or a demon lord is maintaining his powers without his awareness.)"


Now, this case is a little different but it could be interesting seeing the arc it follows. My recommendation isn't anything new but:

Detect evil sometimes detects wrong, missing some evil people (perhaps starting with followers of the evil god or those who act in their domain) and incorrectly registering others as evil (especially those opposed to the god's domain, serve an opposed deity or demigod, ect.). Those it does detect as such are effected by smite evil. Sometimes when they do smite evil against an evil foe, it doesn't seem to work.

As their alignment shifts, their aura does too, if it hasn't already. First the powerful Aura of Good goes away.. then in time they detect as Evil, even if they are not evil.

Divine health starts to fail them at times, god pending. While they do not feel the presence of the diseases, they become carriers. Attempts made by them to remove ailments begin to merely trade one ailment for another.

As they call their mount, they may or may not notice others acting weary. Even other party members might see something off about their steed that the paladin does not. Something thematic to their new patron like subtle fiendish traits, signs of decay, or maybe something at first mundane seeming like their horse appears to have developed mange.


Ultimately, there are variants on paladin and one should look into the one closest fitting their new god's alignment. Paladin of Tyranny, Paladin of Slaughter, Despot (Dragon Magazine 312), Corruptor (312), and Antipaladin (312). There are even some prestige classes to get some ideas from: The blackguard, and the Corrupt Avenger (Heroes of Horror), and the Tainted (Dragon Magazine 302). The latter two are non-evil but may offer some ideas. For example, Tainted Paladins get some options for Lay on Hands and Remove Disease, in addition to the fiendish abilities and attributes they acquire as they advance.

That isn't to say you force them to use a PRC, or class change, but these may help give ideas for mechanical changes they may undergo.. Especially once things come to light.

[Quarian Rex]

Another dissenting voice here. The player made a character to be a shining beacon of good in an apparently grimdark and crapsack world, with all the potential challenges that entails. In response, you have decided to swap the source of his power (with his current god allowing it) and start screwing with him before he can even get a handle on who the character is. Worse, you aren't even trying to challenge black and white morality in a gray world, you are just ham-fistedly redefining the basis of his character (and not in an interesting way). And you justify this because he rolled a natural 1 on an arbitrary die roll that you pulled out of your arse (there is no d20 roll for divine intervention).

I have been in games like this. They are frustrating. Anything the player was looking for when he came to play (and choosing to play a paladin in a Cthulhu world is a pretty specific niche) is tossed out the window when he can't get past level 1 without the DM saying, "Surprise, you're powered by EVIL!!!!". It is this kind of senseless DM dickery that makes players stop caring about what's happening in the game world (if you can be screwed with at any moment and everything is a lie then who cares?) and become straight-up murderhobos as a rational life choice.

I really hope that you have intimate knowledge of your players and are the best DM to have ever graced the hobby. If you are anything less on either front then congratulations, you have probably just sabotaged your own game.

[Hazeeb]

I, and several others, use this particular forum. lol. But I do believe there are others. Brb.

*Edit* I'm back. Many use the Central Hub as well. Here (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?30-Roleplaying-Games).

And, I'd like to throw some love to Kol. He has a project he's doing with campaign journals. I don't know if he's still active or not, but it's worth a shot. Here (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392323-Campaign-logs-archive-Story-time!).

Hope this helps

I'll take a look! I think the stories I create with my players shoulder be shared. Otherwise how can I get better as a story teller and make their experiences better?


Would love to read a game journal. There have been a few posted by this group. In different subgroups. If the game fits in this case 3.5 you can post here

You got it! I'll get something going within the next two days.


While often this concept is ill advised, it is supported by the game material.

From Heroes of Horror:



Now, this case is a little different but it could be interesting seeing the arc it follows. My recommendation isn't anything new but:

Detect evil sometimes detects wrong, missing some evil people (perhaps starting with followers of the evil god or those who act in their domain) and incorrectly registering others as evil (especially those opposed to the god's domain, serve an opposed deity or demigod, ect.). Those it does detect as such are effected by smite evil. Sometimes when they do smite evil against an evil foe, it doesn't seem to work.

As their alignment shifts, their aura does too, if it hasn't already. First the powerful Aura of Good goes away.. then in time they detect as Evil, even if they are not evil.

Divine health starts to fail them at times, god pending. While they do not feel the presence of the diseases, they become carriers. Attempts made by them to remove ailments begin to merely trade one ailment for another.

As they call their mount, they may or may not notice others acting weary. Even other party members might see something off about their steed that the paladin does not. Something thematic to their new patron like subtle fiendish traits, signs of decay, or maybe something at first mundane seeming like their horse appears to have developed mange.


Ultimately, there are variants on paladin and one should look into the one closest fitting their new god's alignment. Paladin of Tyranny, Paladin of Slaughter, Despot (Dragon Magazine 312), Corruptor (312), and Antipaladin (312). There are even some prestige classes to get some ideas from: The blackguard, and the Corrupt Avenger (Heroes of Horror), and the Tainted (Dragon Magazine 302). The latter two are non-evil but may offer some ideas. For example, Tainted Paladins get some options for Lay on Hands and Remove Disease, in addition to the fiendish abilities and attributes they acquire as they advance.

That isn't to say you force them to use a PRC, or class change, but these may help give ideas for mechanical changes they may undergo.. Especially once things come to light.

Yessssssss. To be honest its been years since I did a a proper delve into all the paladin options for 3.5 and pathfinder. These are PERFECT for giving me mechanics and material to chew on as the paladin evolves and finds what his purpose is in life. Excellent reply! I have some issues to go back and read.


Another dissenting voice here. The player made a character to be a shining beacon of good in an apparently grimdark and crapsack world, with all the potential challenges that entails. In response, you have decided to swap the source of his power (with his current god allowing it) and start screwing with him before he can even get a handle on who the character is. Worse, you aren't even trying to challenge black and white morality in a gray world, you are just ham-fistedly redefining the basis of his character (and not in an interesting way). And you justify this because he rolled a natural 1 on an arbitrary die roll that you pulled out of your arse (there is no d20 roll for divine intervention).

I have been in games like this. They are frustrating. Anything the player was looking for when he came to play (and choosing to play a paladin in a Cthulhu world is a pretty specific niche) is tossed out the window when he can't get past level 1 without the DM saying, "Surprise, you're powered by EVIL!!!!". It is this kind of senseless DM dickery that makes players stop caring about what's happening in the game world (if you can be screwed with at any moment and everything is a lie then who cares?) and become straight-up murderhobos as a rational life choice.

I really hope that you have intimate knowledge of your players and are the best DM to have ever graced the hobby. If you are anything less on either front then congratulations, you have probably just sabotaged your own game.

Another dissenting voice with no positive criticism about how to handle the situation. Your opinion is noted.

[Arbane]

What exactly did this player DO to deserve having the entire campaign warped around hosing his character? Took the last slice of pizza?

Hazeeb: How much 'constructive' advice can anyone be expected to add to 'you're screwing this guy over unfairly and seemingly vindictively'?

Ah, well. Nobody plays a Paladin anymore unless they WANT to suffer.

[Xuldarinar]

What exactly did this player DO to deserve having the entire campaign warped around hosing his character? Took the last slice of pizza?

Hazeeb: How much 'constructive' advice can anyone be expected to add to 'you're screwing this guy over unfairly and seemingly vindictively'?

Ah, well. Nobody plays a Paladin anymore unless they WANT to suffer.

Constructive: Offer alternatives? Suggest ways to back out of it? Give ideas for a mini-arc in which the paladin discovers what is going on and rejects the evil god and (re)gains the favor of their old god or a new benevolent god? Maybe even the paladin could resist the pull of evil and pull the other way, moving to redeem their new god and turn them to good?

[Hazeeb]

Constructive: Offer alternatives? Suggest ways to back out of it? Give ideas for a mini-arc in which the paladin discovers what is going on and rejects the evil god and (re)gains the favor of their old god or a new benevolent god? Maybe even the paladin could resist the pull of evil and pull the other way, moving to redeem their new god and turn them to good?

Precisely. I want this to be more than a DM gotcha moment as everyone appears to be assuming. He doesn't HAVE to follow this deity, its just that she answered and he doesn't know enough about her to refuse yet. Knowledge like that is earned, not given.

[Calthropstu]

Another dissenting voice here. The player made a character to be a shining beacon of good in an apparently grimdark and crapsack world, with all the potential challenges that entails. In response, you have decided to swap the source of his power (with his current god allowing it) and start screwing with him before he can even get a handle on who the character is. Worse, you aren't even trying to challenge black and white morality in a gray world, you are just ham-fistedly redefining the basis of his character (and not in an interesting way). And you justify this because he rolled a natural 1 on an arbitrary die roll that you pulled out of your arse (there is no d20 roll for divine intervention).

I have been in games like this. They are frustrating. Anything the player was looking for when he came to play (and choosing to play a paladin in a Cthulhu world is a pretty specific niche) is tossed out the window when he can't get past level 1 without the DM saying, "Surprise, you're powered by EVIL!!!!". It is this kind of senseless DM dickery that makes players stop caring about what's happening in the game world (if you can be screwed with at any moment and everything is a lie then who cares?) and become straight-up murderhobos as a rational life choice.

I really hope that you have intimate knowledge of your players and are the best DM to have ever graced the hobby. If you are anything less on either front then congratulations, you have probably just sabotaged your own game.

Actually, I disagree. Roleplayed well this could be a really eye opening experience for the character and possibly a great plot hook.

Consider this:
The detect evil is swapped with detect good a small number of times as per my original suggestion.
It goes poorly but the paladin, through intervention from his diety (ala the conflicting dreams he has) figures out what's going on.
Thwarted, the evil diety decides more direct methods of persuasion, sending a glabrezu or succubus to tempt. Knowing the paladins darkest secrets due to the direct contact, he knows what buttons to push. An evil cleric becomes involved who the party will have no choice but to deal with in a way that killing would be outright murder.

The op could truly get creative here with logical attempts to make this paladin fall. Each attempt could be more elaborate, and each failure increases the paladin's compatibility with his own deity.
Eventually, frustrated, the evil god either relents or tries to end the paladin.

[Arbane]

Precisely. I want this to be more than a DM gotcha moment as everyone appears to be assuming. He doesn't HAVE to follow this deity, its just that she answered and he doesn't know enough about her to refuse yet. Knowledge like that is earned, not given.

And how exactly do you plan to ALLOW them to 'earn' that knowledge? As I mentioned earlier, the GM is the players' eyes and ears (and Detect Evil) in the world, so if you lie to them, they literally have NO OTHER WAY of figuring things out.

[Nibbens]

And how exactly do you plan to ALLOW them to 'earn' that knowledge? As I mentioned earlier, the GM is the players' eyes and ears (and Detect Evil) in the world, so if you lie to them, they literally have NO OTHER WAY of figuring things out.

I disagree. DMs lie all the time and PCs still come to discover and thrive in environments of partially correct information. If the DM knows his audience, and knows how to be fair and balanced with to his players expectations, then this can be a rewarding experience.

Besides. DMs are made to lie via the rules. Theres several skills devoted to it - bluff, intimidate, disguise. And an entire magic school based around it - illusion. Saying that a DM shouldn't lie because pcs have no other way to figure things out is a bit of a stretch.

[Xuldarinar]

And how exactly do you plan to ALLOW them to 'earn' that knowledge? As I mentioned earlier, the GM is the players' eyes and ears (and Detect Evil) in the world, so if you lie to them, they literally have NO OTHER WAY of figuring things out.

Player and character intuition. As things turn, eventually they are bound to notice something isn't right.


The paladin visits a village and cures a disease running through it, but later hears that everyone from it has a different ailment. (I cured them of the black plague. Later, when we started to head back by that village, we started hearing reports of strange creatures. People without faces attacking anything and everything that comes by. They came from that village... They fell to the faceless hate.)

They detect evil in someone and it doesn't seem right, or a cultist they know for a fact is devoted to X evil deity isn't registering as evil.

The commit an act that in retrospect they think was evil yet they still have power, or they feel disapproval in an action they know is right.

Clerics devoted to their former god start giving them odd looks, make note that there is something wrong, maybe even confront him (with or without hostility). Conversely, clerics of their adoptive god start to show up and view him with favor.

They call their steed and it appears similar to a nightmare.

Blessings take root as unholy, attempts to heal hurt and attempts to magically harm the undead seem to only mend them.

[Hazeeb]

I disagree. DMs lie all the time and PCs still come to discover and thrive in environments of partially correct information. If the DM knows his audience, and knows how to be fair and balanced with to his players expectations, then this can be a rewarding experience.

Besides. DMs are made to lie via the rules. Theres several skills devoted to it - bluff, intimidate, disguise. And an entire magic school based around it - illusion. Saying that a DM shouldn't lie because pcs have no other way to figure things out is a bit of a stretch.

Excellent point there. I have made no effort to lie to this player at any time. He's even used detect evil on the presence in his dreams because he felt something wasn't right. In that case I allowed him to register an evil aura but not the deity itself.


Player and character intuition. As things turn, eventually they are bound to notice something isn't right.


The paladin visits a village and cures a disease running through it, but later hears that everyone from it has a different ailment. (I cured them of the black plague. Later, when we started to head back by that village, we started hearing reports of strange creatures. People without faces attacking anything and everything that comes by. They came from that village... They fell to the faceless hate.)

They detect evil in someone and it doesn't seem right, or a cultist they know for a fact is devoted to X evil deity isn't registering as evil.

The commit an act that in retrospect they think was evil yet they still have power, or they feel disapproval in an action they know is right.

Clerics devoted to their former god start giving them odd looks, make note that there is something wrong, maybe even confront him (with or without hostility). Conversely, clerics of their adoptive god start to show up and view him with favor.

They call their steed and it appears similar to a nightmare.

Blessings take root as unholy, attempts to heal hurt and attempts to magically harm the undead seem to only mend them.

THIS is the kind of stuff I want to see. Thank you. These are actionable ideas I can put into place that will challenge the paladin to think about his actions and what significance they have on the world around him.