How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

[Dr. Cliché]

I'm currently playing in a campaign as a Shadow sorcerer. I'm really enjoying my character in terms of personality/roleplaying. However, whenever it comes to combat, they're about as effective as a dead gerbil. Arguably less so as at least the other characters wouldn't have to worry about protecting a dead gerbil.

We're currently Lv3, and I've got the following spell list:

Chill Touch
Frostbite
Prestigitation
Minor Illusion

Shield
Chromatic Orb
Sleep

Maximilian's Earthen Grasp

(For the most part, I was aiming for a cold/shadow/necrotic theme.)

Anyway, it just seems like I just don't do anything meaningful in combat. My cantrips either do pitiful damage or nothing at all. Sleep gets maybe 1 weak enemy at most. Maximilian's Earthen Grasp has so far failed to do anything.

Have I just chosen bad spells? If so, what should I pick instead?

Otherwise, can anyone give me any advice on playing a (shadow) sorcerer and doing something meaningful with them in combat?

[ad_hoc]

Well Chill Touch is bad so don't use it.

Frostbite is good unless the creature has high Con (or doesn't use weapon attacks)

Sorcerers get Ice Knife, that's decent for an AoE 1st level spell that fits your theme.

You didn't list your Metamagic. Those are key.

Also, you only have 1 2nd level spell. You should have 2 at this point.

Earthen Grasp is not great. Its main draw is the Restrained condition. The problem is that it is a Strength save and the creatures you most want to Restrain probably have high strength.

[ProseBeforeHos]

I'm currently playing in a campaign as a Shadow sorcerer. I'm really enjoying my character in terms of personality/roleplaying. However, whenever it comes to combat, they're about as effective as a dead gerbil. Arguably less so as at least the other characters wouldn't have to worry about protecting a dead gerbil.

We're currently Lv3, and I've got the following spell list:

Chill Touch
Frostbite
Prestigitation
Minor Illusion

Shield
Chromatic Orb
Sleep

Maximilian's Earthen Grasp

(For the most part, I was aiming for a cold/shadow/necrotic theme.)

Anyway, it just seems like I just don't do anything meaningful in combat. My cantrips either do pitiful damage or nothing at all. Sleep gets maybe 1 weak enemy at most. Maximilian's Earthen Grasp has so far failed to do anything.

Have I just chosen bad spells? If so, what should I pick instead?

Otherwise, can anyone give me any advice on playing a (shadow) sorcerer and doing something meaningful with them in combat?

A) Sorcerers are extremely weak at early levels, there's only so much you can do.

B) Spell selection is a bit off. I would have taken mage armor over shield (you'll want that eventually though), and sleep is by level 3 already slightly obsolete. My best advice is to use it on injured monsters, and as soon as you hit level 4 swap it out for something else (mage armor would be a good pickup).

When you hit level 6 everything will get a lot easier. Especially w/ the shadow sorc who gets a huge lvl 6 spike (save sorc points for doggo, focus on staying alive while the pup does damage and soaks hits).

[Specter]

At level 3, there's not much you can do. Mage Armor is better than Shield, because +3AC for 8 hours is more important than +5AC for one round.
But with Quicken or Twin at later levels, you will always be able to do something great when you need to.

[UrielAwakened]

Take two levels of Warlock, Hex, Eldritch Blast, and Agonizing Blast.

[Dr. Cliché]

Well Chill Touch is bad so don't use it.

Is there anything I can replace it with?


Frostbite is good unless the creature has high Con (or doesn't use weapon attacks)

You say that it's good yet it has been consistently awful with virtually every creature of every type making their saves without issue.

I know Chill Touch is lacklustre but at least it does something.



You didn't list your Metamagic. Those are key.

Quicken and Twin.



Also, you only have 1 2nd level spell. You should have 2 at this point.

Even though I only have 2 lv2 spell slots?

Also, in that case, what would you recommend?


Earthen Grasp is not great. Its main draw is the Restrained condition. The problem is that it is a Strength save and the creatures you most want to Restrain probably have high strength.

Yeah, I was stupid enough to believe a guide to sorcerers on this site.



A) Sorcerers are extremely weak at early levels, there's only so much you can do.

Joy.



B) Spell selection is a bit off. I would have taken mage armor over shield (you'll want that eventually though), and sleep is by level 3 already slightly obsolete. My best advice is to use it on injured monsters, and as soon as you hit level 4 swap it out for something else (mage armor would be a good pickup).

What about choices for lv2+ spells?

I mean, I can swap around shield and mage armour, but as it stands my problem is not that I'm taking too much damage but that I'm just not inflicting any damage.



Take two levels of Warlock, Hex, Eldritch Blast, and Agonizing Blast.

So the way to not suck with a sorcerer is to play a different class? Fantastic.

[ad_hoc]

At level 3, there's not much you can do. Mage Armor is better than Shield, because +3AC for 8 hours is more important than +5AC for one round.
But with Quicken or Twin at later levels, you will always be able to do something great when you need to.

Shield is better.

Mage Armour might not do anything for you and so will be a waste of a spell slot often enough to be significant.

Shield will almost always work so will be worth the spell slot. It is +5 AC versus +3 AC so it has more potential to save you. Finally, it lasts until your turn so it might stop multiple attacks.

Mage Armour is only good when 1st level slots are plentiful.

*edit* It is even worse with the Strength of the Grave ability.

[LudicSavant]

Yeah, I was stupid enough to believe a guide to sorcerers on this site. Oh dear. It wasn't the one that says Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting is a good spell, was it?

That guide needs a big glowing neon sign saying "It's a Trap!" to warn the new players.

[ad_hoc]

You say that it's good yet it has been consistently awful with virtually every creature of every type making their saves without issue.

I know Chill Touch is lacklustre but at least it does something.

Probabilities are funny things. I've had AA cracked 5 (or more) times in a row, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the best hand.

Chill Touch is also not terrible. Cantrips tend to do 1d10 damage or 1d8 with a minor rider. Chill Touch just has a weak (basically useless) rider and Necrotic damage is bit of a weak damage type.


Even though I only have 2 lv2 spell slots?

Also, in that case, what would you recommend?

1 combat and 1 utility.

Also, you know the Darkness spell anyway so you should have 3 2nd level spells known.

There are a bunch of good 2nd level spells. Look for spells that will be good for your Eyes of the Dark ability.



Yeah, I was stupid enough to believe a guide to sorcerers on this site.

Anyone can write a guide. People on this site think they are very good at games, but that doesn't mean they actually are. Big fish, small ponds, and all that.

Also, don't be too upset. Levels 1-4 go by very quickly. The main game is levels 5-10. Characters realize their potential until level 5 or 6 (rarely 7).

[Dr. Cliché]

Probabilities are funny things. I've had AA cracked 5 (or more) times in a row, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the best hand.

Granted, but it's hard to keep telling myself that when the spell could just as easily read 'skip your action'.



Chill Touch is also not terrible. Cantrips tend to do 1d10 damage or 1d8 with a minor rider. Chill Touch just has a weak (basically useless) rider and Necrotic damage is bit of a weak damage type.

Well, I'd like to use Toll the Dead instead (which would at least help on the damage front). However, WotC despise sorcerers so they're basically the only class who aren't allowed to use that spell.



1 combat and 1 utility.

What would your recommendation be for the combat power?



Also, you know the Darkness spell anyway so you should have 3 2nd level spells known.

I don't count Darkness because it's basically useless unless I spend spell points to cast it.



There are a bunch of good 2nd level spells. Look for spells that will be good for your Eyes of the Dark ability.

Eh?

Eyes of the Dark interacts with precisely 1 spell. And even then it has to be cast with spell points or else it screws me over anyway.


Also, don't be too upset. Levels 1-4 go by very quickly. The main game is levels 5-10. Characters realize their potential until level 5 or 6 (rarely 7).

Perhaps, but it doesn't make those levels any less tedious.

[sithlordnergal]

So, I would keep Chill Touch and get rid of Frostbite. Chill Touch may not have a rider that comes into play every battle, but being able to prevent the target from healing for an entire round is a big deal when it does happen. Hell, I had a Valor Bard that did nothing but use Chill Touch on a vampire. It prevented the vampire from healing and forced disadvantage on all attack rolls against him.

Frostbite on the other hand is a saving throw that allows a Con save. Con saves tend to be the worst, since monsters tend to have a high Con. I would replace Frostbite with something else...maybe Toll of the Dead if Sorcerers get it

[Prince Zahn]

Here's my analysis, you can take any part of it or leave it, I wouldn't mind, but these are some thoughts that might make your game better:

First off, sleep is never gonna play off again past the first two levels unless you spend your highest level spell slot to keep it relevant. In your position, I'd swap it out for a different first level spell, preferably an out of combat one like Charm Person or Disguise Self that would give you more options outside of combat. In fact, if you can cast Charm Person before you roll initiative, you could end a large chunk of single enemy encounters before they even begin. However, if you are dead set at improving your combat spell list, consider taking a damage AoE - Burning Hands and Thunderwave are both respectable 1st level AoEs with good potential for collateral damage/utility if need be.

The people above me aren't wrong that Chill touch is a relatively situational cantrip, but speaking as one who relies on it with his Tortle Abjurer, you'll be grateful you took it at 2nd tier when monsters start having Regeneration.
If you can bide your time until next level, you will be eligible for a feat. War Caster is a good option, but I would actually recommend that you take Magic Initiate (Warlock), so you can take Toll the Dead, which is a cantrip I believe the Sorcerer sorely deserves - it'll mean you deal better, more, and more consistent damage against anything that already took damage - a great spell against melee enemies! You can also grab Mage Hand for some fun, or another combat cantrip, and either Hellish Rebuke or Arms of Hadar as a rest-powered spell, both could help you get out of a sticky situation, depending on what you know you're dealing with.

2nd level spells... Consider swapping out Earthen Grasp in favor of Web, because you'll be able to target more creatures with it, which in turn means a better chance of restraining at least 1 enemy. If it fails once, a creative melee character can shove a foe back in there with a good athletics check. Also, webs are flammable, and flammable is always a desirable trait in a D&D prop :smalltongue:

More fun 2nd level spells for you might include Blur /Mirror Image so you won't feel like you need to be protected all the time, Shadow Blade from XGt will sync well, now that you can cast Darkness and see through it (2d8 finesse throwable psychic blade that you can slash or throw at your enemies with advantage, and return to your hand as a bonus action.) also as a side note - suggestion can be used effectively and hilariously in combat.

[Jack Bitters]

I second the Ice Knife suggestion. It sounds like you're fighting enemies that are likely to make their saving throws, whereas you are more likely to hit with a spell attack. Ice Knife gives you that spell attack and the chance to do damage on a failed save, so that's two chances of success in one spell. It's got decent range and small AoE so that's good too. However, it cannot be twinned, so there is that.

For cantrips, then, if you're hitting with attack rolls but not getting success with the saving throw ones, stick to chill touch and maybe switch frostbite for ray of frost.
Idk what kinds of encounters you run into, but I could see taking the Control Flames cantrip as a way to extinguish fire/torches and leave your enemies in the dark. Food for thought.

Web might be a better choice than Maximillian's Earthen Grasp because it targets Dexterity, which is a less common save at low levels (I think). Plus you can set it on fire for some minor damage. Either that or Hold Person. Hold Person is a wisdom saving throw, which is also fairly uncommon, and you could twin it. It only works against humanoids but it is ridiculously strong and your fighter friends will love you for it.

Finally, if you're looking for sheer damage, I would swap out the Quicken metamagic for Empower. It has a cheaper cost which is very important at these low levels when you don't have the sorcerery points to throw away. Additionally, you're effectively quickening a spell to be able to cast a cantrip that does 1d8 damage. 2 points for 1d8 damage is not good. Twin is still good though, esp. twinned chromatic orb.

[Foxhound438]

You say that it's good yet it has been consistently awful with virtually every creature of every type making their saves without issue.


you might be suffering from "DM likes boss fights syndrome", which is a rare but often fatal disease. Symptoms include absurdly over-CR enemies that never miss and never fail saves due to their inflated stats, fights rarely or never including multiple enemies, and adventuring days consisting of one fight followed immediately by the swift end of the session.

But in the case you aren't seeing all of that, maybe you just aren't lucky. As others said, you should start seeing more effectiveness after level 5.

[UrielAwakened]

So the way to not suck with a sorcerer is to play a different class? Fantastic.

No you still take 18 other levels of Sorcerer. But it's really hard to justify not taking two levels of Warlock as a Sorcerer. You get so much DPR and additional metamagic use.

[samcifer]

I'd recommend Acid Splash as it targets DEX. Ditch Sleep as it's pretty weak and is rarely useful at your level and will be all but useless in two more levels.

[Dr. Cliché]

Out of interest, what would the optimal spells/cantrips be if I abandoned flavour entirely?


No you still take 18 other levels of Sorcerer. But it's really hard to justify not taking two levels of Warlock as a Sorcerer. You get so much DPR and additional metamagic use.

Perhaps, but my group already makes fun of me for frequently playing Warlocks so it would be nice if I didn't have to add to that tally even more.

Also, I'm rather concerned that if I did this I'd end up feeling less like a sorcerer and more like a Warlock with some wasted levels.

Also also, it seems the Shadow Sorcerer's most useful/interesting ability is gained at lv6 - so if I take 2 levels of Warlock I'll be delaying getting it even more.

[danpit2991]

i will second everything that has already been said about your spells being sub-optimal the easiest thing is to ask your DM if you can redo your spell list. following that the quickest way to more power is unironically to sell your soul and dip warlock barring that if it makes no sense RP or flavor or just not your thing and you are playing with feats take either spell sniper or magic initiate and grab EB as one of the cantrips its good even without AB

[Whit]

Personally I don’t know much about shadow but I do know about sorcerer.
Less spell options as you get inky so much to know. You will usually use fire bolt or sinikisr cantrip for combat unless you need ae or specific spell. Your key set is metamagic
Double range blah unless dm is big on more than 20 hexes or range
Increase damage by ch modifier blah
No verbal somatic nice but not a first pick great for charm without someone knowing you cast or if silenced
Twin double the single spell target at double the lvl cost. Expensive but could be useful
One target disadvantage spell save is huge.
Cast one spell quicken is major. Did you say 2 fireballs? Why yes. I did. Anyway you won’t see much power until your lvl 6 and even then it’s short lived.

[Dr. Cliché]

i will second everything that has already been said about your spells being sub-optimal the easiest thing is to ask your DM if you can redo your spell list. following that the quickest way to more power is unironically to sell your soul and dip warlock barring that if it makes no sense RP or flavor or just not your thing and you are playing with feats take either spell sniper or magic initiate and grab EB as one of the cantrips its good even without AB

To be quite honest, I regret picking sorcerer in the first place.

This was my first time using one. I tend to favour casters in general and I thought a Shadow Sorcerer, particularly in regard to the near-death experience part, was the best fit for my character. However, I just haven't found it at all enjoyable to play. And certainly not useful or effective.

If I'd picked a Warlock initially (and suffered the usual mockery from my fellow players), I could have easily worked the patron thing into my character's backstory. However, voluntarily making a pact now would be completely out of character.

I know you're right about Eldritch Blast still being decent without AB, but it doesn't make it any less depressing that the only way I can have a half-decent sorcerer is to basically have a crap excuse for a Warlock.

[Naanomi]

Cast one spell quicken is major. Did you say 2 fireballs? Why yes. I did. Anyway you won’t see much power until your lvl 6 and even then it’s short lived.
Quicken is good but doesn’t work that way, doesn’t bypass the spells/turn limit

[mephnick]

Quicken is good but doesn’t work that way, doesn’t bypass the spells/turn limit

I think they missed a good opportunity to make the sorceror cool here. Quicken as it stands is only good for multiclass builds like Sorcadin.

When I explain it doesn't bypass the limit you can actually see the player get disappointed and decide to roll a different class.

They needed to make metamagic more powerful and balanced it somewhere else if it was going to be the class's core concept.

[danpit2991]

To be quite honest, I regret picking sorcerer in the first place.

This was my first time using one. I tend to favour casters in general and I thought a Shadow Sorcerer, particularly in regard to the near-death experience part, was the best fit for my character. However, I just haven't found it at all enjoyable to play. And certainly not useful or effective.

If I'd picked a Warlock initially (and suffered the usual mockery from my fellow players), I could have easily worked the patron thing into my character's backstory. However, voluntarily making a pact now would be completely out of character.

I know you're right about Eldritch Blast still being decent without AB, but it doesn't make it any less depressing that the only way I can have a half-decent sorcerer is to basically have a crap excuse for a Warlock.



it honestly is your spell and metamagic selections that are causing the problems like i said the best solution is to get with your DM and revamp your spell list i mean as of right now you are only 3rd level and just starting out you just cant expect EB/AB levels of damage right now i mean that is Warlocks stchick it is literally the most reliable part of the whole class it seems to me that no matter what advice anyone gives you you just shut it down maybe you are just so frustrated with your character and the choices you made that you cant get past the previous suckage, i dont know but you dont have to be a crap Warlock to be a good Sorcerer its just the easiest way to mitigate your choices and salvage your build if you cant redo your spells literally the only things you can do to help"fix" it is to multiclass of get the feats

[Whit]

Did I miss an erata.
When you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 action, (fireball) you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting.

[Jack Bitters]

I will say at this point don't multiclass to warlock. Stick with sorcerer until level 6. Don't delay your power spike--level 3 spells are very strong

For optimal damage... first off, do you tend to stand back a ways from the melee combatants and stay safe, or do you do you get caught up in the fray?
For long range blasting: twinned chromatic orb, empowered magic missile, and ray of frost/chill touch. Scorching ray for the level 2 spell--it's very, very good.

For close ranged stuff: burning hands and thunderwave are good. Anything that does half damage on a save is your friend because you don't want to feel like you've done nothing.
Dragon's breath for the level 2 spell--cast it on yourself, twin it with someone else.. quite good. And then actually once you do that, if you stick with Quicken as a metamagic, you can cast another spell while using your dragon's breath. So you could theoretically pump out 6d6 of damage with burning hands and dragon's breath in an area. Costly but very good damage.

EDIT: just in case you didn't know, dragon's breath gives the option to do acid, cold, fire, lightning, and poison damage, so you can stick to theme while using it.

[Jack Bitters]

Did I miss an erata.
When you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 action, (fireball) you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting.

Whit you are correct but the rules also state that when you cast a spell that is not a cantrip as a bonus action (i.e. Quicken fireball) the only other spells you cast that turn may be cantrips.

This is intentionally designed so that you cannot drop two fireballs in a turn with Quicken.

[Dr. Cliché]

it honestly is your spell and metamagic selections that are causing the problems like i said the best solution is to get with your DM and revamp your spell list i mean as of right now you are only 3rd level and just starting out you just cant expect EB/AB levels of damage right now i mean that is Warlocks stchick it is literally the most reliable part of the whole class it seems to me that no matter what advice anyone gives you you just shut it down maybe you are just so frustrated with your character and the choices you made that you cant get past the previous suckage, i dont know but you dont have to be a crap Warlock to be a good Sorcerer its just the easiest way to mitigate your choices and salvage your build if you cant redo your spells literally the only things you can do to help"fix" it is to multiclass of get the feats

I apologise if I come across as shutting everyone down. You're right - I am frustrated with my character choice. However, you'll forgive me if advice like 'take warlock levels instead' or 'take a feat that lets you take warlock spells' hasn't exactly sold me on the sorcerer or its ability to not suck.

You say I can't expect EB/AB levels of damage right now, but what exactly can I expect? Is it so wrong that I'm looking rather enviously at the damage inflicted by my fellow party members, whilst my own magical attacks are about as effective as flicking staples at the enemy? Is it wrong that, given that my attacks are already far less effective than those of my fellow party members, I'd like them to at least work more than once every three rounds?


Also, to the chap who brought it up earlier - it's not bosses who are refusing to fail their saves against Frostbite - it's basic, run-of-the-mill mooks.

[Whit]

Well. I guess let’s change it to. Cast a fireball and then fire bolt Ty for info

[Jack Bitters]

Can you post which classes your party members are playing and also your ability scores for your sorcerer?

[danpit2991]

sorry if i came off wrong, wasnt my intent. Sorc is a good platform like i said it is your spell list that is causin the suck there have been many suggestions of what to change to stop that suckage ... but like i said it will take DM approval to change it now ... as you know as a Warlock fan its early level is great thats why barring DM fiat your best option is to MC of get one of the feats

[Pex]

Replace Earthen Grasp with Phantasmal Force or Suggestion. They are prime for twinning.

When you reach 5th level your Cantrip damage will double. Be patient. Right now they're a glorified crossbow. Let the warriors be the damage kings. I'm personally not a fan of Chromatic Orb, but if it works for you great. At higher levels Cantrips outdamage it, but it's good for awhile. Sleep has to go away. I've seen it used well here and there but ultimately it's a waste. It only works on creatures that were going to die in a round anyway from damage. Burning Hands or Thunderwave for area of effect damage. Magic Missile when you need to be sure you hit. Disguise Self or Charm person for utility. When at 5th level and Cantrips become reliable damage, spending a spell slot on Mage Armor is worth it.

Still, be patient. It gets better. 5th level is key.

[Dr. Cliché]

For optimal damage... first off, do you tend to stand back a ways from the melee combatants and stay safe, or do you do you get caught up in the fray?

I stay behind so far as that's possible.



For long range blasting: twinned chromatic orb, empowered magic missile, and ray of frost/chill touch. Scorching ray for the level 2 spell--it's very, very good.

In terms of cantrips, would I be better off with Fire Bolt over Ray of Frost?

I'll take Scorching Ray when I get a chance.



Dragon's breath for the level 2 spell--cast it on yourself, twin it with someone else.. quite good. And then actually once you do that, if you stick with Quicken as a metamagic, you can cast another spell while using your dragon's breath. So you could theoretically pump out 6d6 of damage with burning hands and dragon's breath in an area. Costly but very good damage.

EDIT: just in case you didn't know, dragon's breath gives the option to do acid, cold, fire, lightning, and poison damage, so you can stick to theme while using it.

I'm not sure my DM will allow Dragon's Breath but I'll ask. Thanks either way.


Can you post which classes your party members are playing and also your ability scores for your sorcerer?

My scores are:
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 18
(Probably the best scores I've ever rolled. I only wish I could make use of them. :smalleek:)

My other party members are:
- A half-orc Barbarian
- A halfling Ranger
- A tabaxi Rogue
- A human Paladin
(Not sure about subclesses offhand.)


sorry if i came off wrong, wasnt my intent.

No worries. :smallsmile:


Sorc is a good platform like i said it is your spell list that is causin the suck there have been many suggestions of what to change to stop that suckage ... but like i said it will take DM approval to change it now

Well, I'd prefer to change spells than to multiclass.


Replace Earthen Grasp with Phantasmal Force or Suggestion. They are prime for twinning.

I'm not really a fan of Phantasmal Force. I've had it before and it's one of those spells that either sits on my spell list gathering dust or else just ends up being a really crap damage spell because the monster in question largely ignores the illusion.

Suggestion is a good idea though.




When you reach 5th level your Cantrip damage will double. Be patient. Right now they're a glorified crossbow. Let the warriors be the damage kings.

Yeah, I know cantrips get better eventually, but that knowledge doesn't make the intervening levels any less tedious.


I'm personally not a fan of Chromatic Orb, but if it works for you great.

As I said earlier, I was stupid enough to trust in a sorcerer guide.


Sleep has to go away. I've seen it used well here and there but ultimately it's a waste. It only works on creatures that were going to die in a round anyway from damage. Burning Hands or Thunderwave for area of effect damage. Magic Missile when you need to be sure you hit. Disguise Self or Charm person for utility. When at 5th level and Cantrips become reliable damage, spending a spell slot on Mage Armor is worth it.

Still, be patient. It gets better. 5th level is key.

Alright, cheers for the spell suggestions.

[Contrast]

Out of interest did you play levels 1 and 2 or start straight at 3rd? Little surprised to hear you say sleep has been useless as by third it will be losing some of its oomph but whenever I've played its basically been as instant 'win the encounter' button for the first few levels.

[ImproperJustice]

I recently ran a sorc from 1-5, so I will suggest the following:

Use Earthen Grasp on enemy casters or rogues who have low strength scores.

Twinned Ice Knife and Chromatic Orb are efficient damage dealers at low level.

Swap out Frostbite for Ray of Frost.
Reducing enemy speed can keep you out of harms way.

Shield, Mage Armor, and/or absorb elements is helpful for early survivalbilty.

Twin cast a biff like enlarge/reduce on your heavy hitters. They will like the effect and see you as a credit to the team.

Stay mobile as much as you can to put your allies between you and the enemy.

Low levels suck for everyone.
At level 5 your cantrips double in damage and you can twin cast buffs and debuffs.
No one of else can Twin Haste or Flight for instance.

Hang in there.

[sithlordnergal]

I stay behind so far as that's possible.



In terms of cantrips, would I be better off with Fire Bolt over Ray of Frost?

I'll take Scorching Ray when I get a chance.


I'm not really a fan of Phantasmal Force. I've had it before and it's one of those spells that either sits on my spell list gathering dust or else just ends up being a really crap damage spell because the monster in question largely ignores the illusion.

Suggestion is a good idea though.


Hmmm, if you are still going for that Ice caster feel, stick with Ray of Frost. A d8 damage dice is perfectly fine, and it has a neat rider. It won't be as optimized as firebolt, but it is perfectly serviceable.

And responding to an earlier post, any cantrip that gives your target a Con save should be avoided at all costs. I have played a Yuan-Ti before which automatically gets Poison Spray. It does a nice d12 damage...and gives targets a con save. I have played the character from levels 1 to 7, and yet to hit anything with it due to the con save. Frostbite and Poison Spray are rendered useless because everything you could face has a great con save.

And finally, sounds like your DM doesn't know how Phantasmal Force works. If you can make it an unavoidable illusion, and they fail their save, they physically can't just ignore it. I hate DMs who fail to read the "They totally believe the illusion and rationalize any inconsistencies with the illusion" part of Phantasmal Force.

[Tikkun]

At level 3 Shadow Sorcerers get an incredibly powerful boost via Eyes of the Dark. That is the ability to spend 2 Sorcery Points to cast Darkness and get, what amounts to as, Devil's Sight. You can dump mage armor/shield and stay further back in your dark bubble. Many of the spells in XGtE are not the greatest but many have already suggested the usual Sorcerer spells/cantrips to get you to the next spell casting level. Some spells like Magic Missile don't cause the highest damage at low levels but have no saving throw. Remember that few characters can destroy a mob on one attack. Sorcerers are no different.

[SharkForce]

No you still take 18 other levels of Sorcerer. But it's really hard to justify not taking two levels of Warlock as a Sorcerer. You get so much DPR and additional metamagic use.

way more consistent DPR yes. way more metamagic use... no. you don't. not unless you are constantly taking short rests way more than expected, anyways.

you have to count your 2 SP from having 2 sorcerer levels (there goes one short rest worth of SP) and the SP you could've gotten from converting your additional spells that you lost by taking warlock levels to get an actual correct idea of how much more metamagic you would get, and when you factor that in, it is frequently 0, i think there is one level where it is a positive number, and several where it is a negative number. multiclassing into warlock has benefits. more metamagic is typically not one of them.





@ OP: now then, sorcerer requires a completely different mindset from warlock. the warlock is a very consistent spellcaster. you always have eldritch blast to fall back on, your spell slots come back on a short rest and are always the same level, you likely even have some at-will invocations you can use as needed. sorcerer is not like that. sorcerer is all about finding the right time to spend resources to make a big change, and the rest of the time you need to just accept that you're not going to have the consistent impact you might wish to have.

so, the first thing with sorcerer, have an idea what you want to do. you've got a theme, which is nice, but what you really need is a better grasp on what role you want to fill. then you need to choose your metamagic accordingly (if you want to be good in social encounters, choose subtle, for example). then, once you have your metamagic figured out, only then do you choose spells, because that is the only thing in the entire class worth a damned thing. the rest of the class was gutted so that sorcerers could play with metamagic and nobody else can, so you absolutely must make the most of your metamagic, otherwise you're just a really crappy wizard with fewer spells per day, fewer interesting class abilities, fewer spells known, and fewer spells on your spell list. which means, it isn't too surprising you're having a hard time with sorcerer. sorcerer is not an easy class to use.

so anyways, you have quicken and twin. looking at your spell list, apart from cantrips the only thing that works with twin is chromatic orb, and quicken is both expensive and unimpressive at your current level if you use it to get an extra cantrip out. this is likely a major source of your frustration. so, first order of business: ask yourself what you want to do. do you want to be a controller? a nuker? (i'm not convinced a full focus on nuking is great for any spellcaster, but if that's what you want to do you'll need to work with it). do you want to try and buff party members and bring utility? whatever your desired role is, understand that it isn't an exclusive thing. you will need to focus your metamagic picks and spells on your primary role, but being a nuker doesn't mean you can't know counterspell to provide protection from enemy spellcasters or haste to turn the rogue into a murder machine.

you've been given some interesting suggestions, but really, first order of business absolutely must start with what you want to do. from there you can explore your options (like "will your DM allow you to rebuild your character from the ground up so that you can have the cantrips, spells, and metamagic options you want?)

once you've got that figured out, your next step is to start looking for spells that fit your metamagic (either your original choices if your DM is not allowing you to change them, or whatever you prefer if the DM is allowing the change. just to re-emphasize, metamagic is what makes or breaks a sorcerer, so make sure you've got ways to use it, and use it well.

some general tips for various metamagic:

subtle: allows you to get away with magic shenanigans in a variety of situations; when you're in a silence spell, when you're underwater, when you're tied up, when you're in front of a king who has guards that could one-shot you, when you're facing an enemy spellcaster that could counterspell you (they have to see the spell being cast to counter it, and if you're not moving your hands or mouth, how are they seeing you spellcast?)

quicken: so many people obsess over this, but they forget to ask an important question: what am i going to do with my regular action. it can't be casting a spell other than a cantrip with a casting time of one action, which at this point pretty much means dealing 1d8 damage for you, so what else is it going to be used for? something like disengage or dodge actions would be better, but best of all is to find a spell which requires an action to control it (which is *not* the same thing as casting a spell). for example, if you have sunbeam active, you can use an action to blast people... but that isn't the "cast a spell" action, it's a special action. same with the dragon breath spell that was suggested to you, as i recall. so that would mean that you can do things like, say, quickened fireball on a target with your bonus action and then sunbeam with your regular action on the same turn. so look for spells that you can use with an action to get the most out of quicken.

careful: depending on whether your DM listens to jeremy crawford or not, careful may or may not allow you to create zones of perpetual crowd control that do not hinder your allies. for example, a careful web might allow you to designate all your melee party members to be able to always make saves against it, which means it never entangles them ever. however, if your DM does listen to jeremy crawford, then careful only works on the initial round, which still leaves it somewhat useful for spells like fear or hypnotic pattern. the main thing is to look for spells where a successful saving throw does absolutely nothing; taking half damage from a fireball probably is not worth it (on the other hand, eventually some party members may gain evasion or similar effects which will allow them to take no damage on a successful save against a fireball, at which point careful spell may become worth combining with that). don't think of it for damage spells; most of the spells you want to use careful on will be crowd control.

twin: look for high-impact spells that are restricted to single targets because of how high impact they are. suggestion is a great example; choose two enemies, tell them to run, and if they fail their save they run off for up to 8 hours (but you'll probably want your concentration back before then). at your current level, hold person is normally single target as well, though at later levels it can be used on multiple targets, so that's a reasonable suggestion (so long as you don't upcast it). later on, you may consider spells like disintegrate, enlarge*, haste**, improved invisibility, and polymorph (which is an absurdly overpowered buff when you first get it and can turn party members into giant apes for an hour, giving them an entire extra HP bar to spend and substantial damage boosts most likely).

extend: i would not recommend this for a single classed sorcerer unless they're a divine soul. theoretically, you'd be looking for spells with a mid-range duration (4 hours or 8 hours, for example. maybe even 10 minutes if you're in a dungeon or for some healing spells). currently, sorcerers don't have those kinds of spells on their list (but clerics do, which is why it's good for divine souls). i will add that there is one niche for extend that isn't often noticed: you can get a lot more damage out of delayed blast fireball if you have time to charge it up. that won't come up until level 13 at the earliest though, so i'd leave that for later.

empower: if you want to nuke as your primary focus, take it. otherwise, you really shouldn't.

reach: i wouldn't take it with the sorcerer spell list. you don't need range that desperately, most of the spells you'd like to use it on technically don't have a range, and you don't have enough touch spells for it to be worth it, imo. YMMV.


* enlarge is not just for the damage boost, it's so that your party members can grapple bigger targets, push heavier objects, etc. you can also use reduce to allow party members to squeeze through gaps sized for tiny creatures, or to walk comfortably in areas sized for small; personally, i'd rather have -1d4 damage per hit than be subject to the squeezing rules, though not everyone will agree with that. note that you should be able to enlarge your friend and reduce an enemy if you twin it, which means your (formerly) medium warrior can grapple a (formerly) gargantuan monster

** everyone seems to think haste is the best thing since sliced bread. i'm not that impressed with it generally, but you do have a rogue which means it can be a lot more powerful if the rogue does not otherwise have a means to gain reaction attacks, and if you're gonna cast it you probably may as well twin it. the way to use it on the rogue is to have the rogue make a regular attack action using the haste action. it disallows the extra attack feature, but rogues don't have that anyways. this will also be sufficient to trigger two weapon fighting or crossbow expert bonus action attacks, for the record. you then use your regular non-haste action to ready an attack. the key here is that sneak attack is once per turn, not once per round; as soon as you end your turn, someone else's turn starts, which means your rogue can now use sneak attack again. it also does have the advantage that haste is likely to never be useless; you may be facing an enemy where none of your spells are great, but where you need to make a good impact, and in that situation, well... haste is probably one of your best options, even if that's only because your other options are super bad.

[strangebloke]

Just remember your metamagic is your biggest resource.

Quicken is great, but it isn't what you think. Maximizing your usage of quicken is all about improving your (non spell) action, since you still can't cast two spells in a round. Multiclassing with warlock or paladin will fix this problem, but obviously that's only good if you built for it m You can also use a concentration spell that gives you powerful things to do with your action, but... Yeah not a lot of good option at this level.

Twin is all about powerful low level single target buffs and debuffs. As others have said, phantasmal force is awesome, although DMs get all prissy about it. My favorite usage is 'character is locked in a steel sphere filled with acid.' if the DM says 'he is not blind/restrained' just note that regardless, he cannot see you, and therefore everyone has advantage against him. Other good ones include enlarge/reduce, blindness/deafness, enhance ability, and invisibility. At fifth level there's haste and slow.

Remember that you shouldn't pick too many spells that you don't want to keep.

Remember, too, that sorcerers are an extreme Nova class. They can easily blow through all their resources in a single encounter. So you will not be a major force in all encounters, just the ones where you use resources.

[samcifer]

"My scores are:
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 18
(Probably the best scores I've ever rolled. I only wish I could make use of them. )

My other party members are:
- A half-orc Barbarian
- A halfling Ranger
- A tabaxi Rogue
- A human Paladin
(Not sure about subclesses offhand.)
"

As the only full caster in the party, you offer a lot to the group. You might consider Haste if you want to buff the party some. Those are really good stats, btw. Don't be afraid to do more in the rp-department outside of combat, esp. for things involving Intelligence, which no one else in the party is likely to have as high as you do. With high Charisma, you're also most likely the party's face, so even if you can't shine in combat, you can be the party's representative in interacting with npcs.

As far as cantrips, I still recommend Acid Splash as DEX is a better save to have foes roll against than Concentration. Fire Bolt will be your long range option as is a good cantrip to have.

Later on (post lv. 5) you can mc into warlock for 2 levels. The armor proficiency will help overcome the need for Mage Armor as you have so few known spells as a sorc. If you do, Eldritch Blast will work really well with Quicken.

[Talamare]

I think they missed a good opportunity to make the sorceror cool here. Quicken as it stands is only good for multiclass builds like Sorcadin.

When I explain it doesn't bypass the limit you can actually see the player get disappointed and decide to roll a different class.

They needed to make metamagic more powerful and balanced it somewhere else if it was going to be the class's core concept.

They needed to make Quicken more expensive (and remove the stupid spell casting limit that EVERYONE HATES)

Then give Sorcerers more actual features!

Since overall, Metamagics are pretty good... but they are kinda of like Warlock Invocations
A secondary-ish feature that doesn't inherently define you

While the features that do define you like... Dragon and Wild, are pretty disappointingly lackluster compared to Wizard options.
Basically I'm saying they probably felt Metamagic would be so broken, that they nerfed the crap out of Sorcerer...
but Metamagic ended up being just kinda of okay, so the nerfs weren't justified.

[Naanomi]

I think most of the metamagic options are just fine, but often so niche... double the amount you get at every level and you’d have some real versatility despite the small spell list

[Strangways]

Chill Touch is actually quite good - decent range, a damage type (necrotic) that almost nothing resists and a secondary effect (target can't heal) that can be useful against regenerating creatures. Firebolt is a more popular choice because it does a d10 of damage instead of d8, but fire (along with poison) are the two most commonly resisted damage types.

Level 3 is not a level at which you're going to feel super-powerful. You have very few sorcery points and your cantrips are still doing single-dice damage. They won't go up to doing 2 dice of damage until level 5.

One thing you don't mention is using Darkness. As a shadow sorcerer, you can cast Darkness using sorcery points and, when you do, you can see in that darkness, even though no one else can (unless they have Devil's sight, which almost nothing does). That will make you an unseen attacker in combat, giving you advantage on every attack roll the enemies, who cannot see you, will have disadvantage on attack rolls against you. This tactic is your go-to approach for most combats (at least the combats nontrivial enough to warrant spending sorcery points) and will greatly increase your damage output, not to mention reducing your damage taken.

You'll get a major boost in power output when you hit level 5 and you cantrips go to 2 hit dice, and another big boost at level 6 when you can summon the Hound of Ill Omen.

[Prince Zahn]

I apologise if I come across as shutting everyone down. You're right - I am frustrated with my character choice. However, you'll forgive me if advice like 'take warlock levels instead' or 'take a feat that lets you take warlock spells' hasn't exactly sold me on the sorcerer or its ability to not suck.
I know that I said take from my advice what you will, but I'm a little bit disappointed that you specifically chose to address only the one small portion of my suggestions that you don't want to do. Warlock was the most intuitive suggestion for magic initiate because it runs on charisma and has Toll The Dead. That's not the kind of feat that requires you to think too deeply into the fluff behind it - you're not turning into a warlock.

All of your spells, if you noticed, realistically speaking, can only target 1 creature at a time and they are all-or-nothing effects. So it makes sense that if you don't have a decent degree of success, you will be bummed out!
Look into some AoE effects - Thunderwave, Burning Hands, Web, Pyrotechnics even! Even if your enemies succeed in the save they usually get a partial effect or partial damage

From there, you can take some commonly useful metamagic that goes with AoE but require minimal spell points (because you should want a many as possible for Darkness) - Careful Spell, Empowered spell ...

Also, I'm sure you liked sleep, but you'll likely have an easier time casting suggestion to tell someone to fall asleep, because I'm sorry to say it's not a spell that remains effective beyond 1st level.

[Dr. Cliché]

Hmmm, if you are still going for that Ice caster feel, stick with Ray of Frost. A d8 damage dice is perfectly fine, and it has a neat rider. It won't be as optimized as firebolt, but it is perfectly serviceable.

Well, I actually wanted a more vampire-y/necrotic feel. However, this was blown out of the water somewhat when I found that Vampiric Touch wasn't on the sorcerer spell list.

Ice seemed like the closest I could get, but I'd welcome any better possibilities.



And responding to an earlier post, any cantrip that gives your target a Con save should be avoided at all costs. I have played a Yuan-Ti before which automatically gets Poison Spray. It does a nice d12 damage...and gives targets a con save. I have played the character from levels 1 to 7, and yet to hit anything with it due to the con save. Frostbite and Poison Spray are rendered useless because everything you could face has a great con save.

I might ask my DM if he'll let me swap out Frostbite.

Honestly, I keep forgetting that cantrips can't be swapped at all.


Out of interest did you play levels 1 and 2 or start straight at 3rd? Little surprised to hear you say sleep has been useless as by third it will be losing some of its oomph but whenever I've played its basically been as instant 'win the encounter' button for the first few levels.

We started at lv1 but I didn't start with Sleep - that was something I took at a later level.


I know that I said take from my advice what you will, but I'm a little bit disappointed that you specifically chose to address only the one small portion of my suggestions that you don't want to do. Warlock was the most intuitive suggestion for magic initiate because it runs on charisma and has Toll The Dead. That's not the kind of feat that requires you to think too deeply into the fluff behind it - you're not turning into a warlock.


It's less about the fluff and more about it being disheartening to be told that the best way to be a good sorcerer is to pinch spells or levels from other, better classes. :smalltongue:

If nothing else, it just seems to confirm the idea that I shouldn't have picked Sorcerer to begin with.



All of your spells, if you noticed, realistically speaking, can only target 1 creature at a time and they are all-or-nothing effects. So it makes sense that if you don't have a decent degree of success, you will be bummed out!
Look into some AoE effects - Thunderwave, Burning Hands, Web, Pyrotechnics even! Even if your enemies succeed in the save they usually get a partial effect or partial damage

From there, you can take some commonly useful metamagic that goes with AoE but require minimal spell points (because you should want a many as possible for Darkness) - Careful Spell, Empowered spell ...

Also, I'm sure you liked sleep, but you'll likely have an easier time casting suggestion to tell someone to fall asleep, because I'm sorry to say it's not a spell that remains effective beyond 1st level.

Okay, that's all useful. Thanks.



@ OP: now then, sorcerer requires a completely different mindset from warlock. the warlock is a very consistent spellcaster. you always have eldritch blast to fall back on, your spell slots come back on a short rest and are always the same level, you likely even have some at-will invocations you can use as needed. sorcerer is not like that. sorcerer is all about finding the right time to spend resources to make a big change, and the rest of the time you need to just accept that you're not going to have the consistent impact you might wish to have.

That's helpful to know. I wish I'd seen that before I picked a sorcerer. :smallwink:



so, the first thing with sorcerer, have an idea what you want to do. you've got a theme, which is nice, but what you really need is a better grasp on what role you want to fill. then you need to choose your metamagic accordingly (if you want to be good in social encounters, choose subtle, for example). then, once you have your metamagic figured out, only then do you choose spells, because that is the only thing in the entire class worth a damned thing. the rest of the class was gutted so that sorcerers could play with metamagic and nobody else can, so you absolutely must make the most of your metamagic, otherwise you're just a really crappy wizard with fewer spells per day, fewer interesting class abilities, fewer spells known, and fewer spells on your spell list. which means, it isn't too surprising you're having a hard time with sorcerer. sorcerer is not an easy class to use.

Also useful to know.



so anyways, you have quicken and twin. looking at your spell list, apart from cantrips the only thing that works with twin is chromatic orb, and quicken is both expensive and unimpressive at your current level if you use it to get an extra cantrip out. this is likely a major source of your frustration. so, first order of business: ask yourself what you want to do. do you want to be a controller? a nuker? (i'm not convinced a full focus on nuking is great for any spellcaster, but if that's what you want to do you'll need to work with it). do you want to try and buff party members and bring utility? whatever your desired role is, understand that it isn't an exclusive thing. you will need to focus your metamagic picks and spells on your primary role, but being a nuker doesn't mean you can't know counterspell to provide protection from enemy spellcasters or haste to turn the rogue into a murder machine.

you've been given some interesting suggestions, but really, first order of business absolutely must start with what you want to do. from there you can explore your options (like "will your DM allow you to rebuild your character from the ground up so that you can have the cantrips, spells, and metamagic options you want?)

once you've got that figured out, your next step is to start looking for spells that fit your metamagic (either your original choices if your DM is not allowing you to change them, or whatever you prefer if the DM is allowing the change. just to re-emphasize, metamagic is what makes or breaks a sorcerer, so make sure you've got ways to use it, and use it well.

Well, I'm the only full caster in the party, so maybe I should focus on utility (or other stuff that the mundane classes can't do)?



some general tips for various metamagic:

subtle: allows you to get away with magic shenanigans in a variety of situations; when you're in a silence spell, when you're underwater, when you're tied up, when you're in front of a king who has guards that could one-shot you, when you're facing an enemy spellcaster that could counterspell you (they have to see the spell being cast to counter it, and if you're not moving your hands or mouth, how are they seeing you spellcast?)

quicken: so many people obsess over this, but they forget to ask an important question: what am i going to do with my regular action. it can't be casting a spell other than a cantrip with a casting time of one action, which at this point pretty much means dealing 1d8 damage for you, so what else is it going to be used for? something like disengage or dodge actions would be better, but best of all is to find a spell which requires an action to control it (which is *not* the same thing as casting a spell). for example, if you have sunbeam active, you can use an action to blast people... but that isn't the "cast a spell" action, it's a special action. same with the dragon breath spell that was suggested to you, as i recall. so that would mean that you can do things like, say, quickened fireball on a target with your bonus action and then sunbeam with your regular action on the same turn. so look for spells that you can use with an action to get the most out of quicken.

careful: depending on whether your DM listens to jeremy crawford or not, careful may or may not allow you to create zones of perpetual crowd control that do not hinder your allies. for example, a careful web might allow you to designate all your melee party members to be able to always make saves against it, which means it never entangles them ever. however, if your DM does listen to jeremy crawford, then careful only works on the initial round, which still leaves it somewhat useful for spells like fear or hypnotic pattern. the main thing is to look for spells where a successful saving throw does absolutely nothing; taking half damage from a fireball probably is not worth it (on the other hand, eventually some party members may gain evasion or similar effects which will allow them to take no damage on a successful save against a fireball, at which point careful spell may become worth combining with that). don't think of it for damage spells; most of the spells you want to use careful on will be crowd control.

twin: look for high-impact spells that are restricted to single targets because of how high impact they are. suggestion is a great example; choose two enemies, tell them to run, and if they fail their save they run off for up to 8 hours (but you'll probably want your concentration back before then). at your current level, hold person is normally single target as well, though at later levels it can be used on multiple targets, so that's a reasonable suggestion (so long as you don't upcast it). later on, you may consider spells like disintegrate, enlarge*, haste**, improved invisibility, and polymorph (which is an absurdly overpowered buff when you first get it and can turn party members into giant apes for an hour, giving them an entire extra HP bar to spend and substantial damage boosts most likely).

extend: i would not recommend this for a single classed sorcerer unless they're a divine soul. theoretically, you'd be looking for spells with a mid-range duration (4 hours or 8 hours, for example. maybe even 10 minutes if you're in a dungeon or for some healing spells). currently, sorcerers don't have those kinds of spells on their list (but clerics do, which is why it's good for divine souls). i will add that there is one niche for extend that isn't often noticed: you can get a lot more damage out of delayed blast fireball if you have time to charge it up. that won't come up until level 13 at the earliest though, so i'd leave that for later.

empower: if you want to nuke as your primary focus, take it. otherwise, you really shouldn't.

reach: i wouldn't take it with the sorcerer spell list. you don't need range that desperately, most of the spells you'd like to use it on technically don't have a range, and you don't have enough touch spells for it to be worth it, imo. YMMV.

Thanks for that guide. I wish I'd seen it before I picked my metamagic. :smalltongue:


Twin is all about powerful low level single target buffs and debuffs. As others have said, phantasmal force is awesome, although DMs get all prissy about it. My favorite usage is 'character is locked in a steel sphere filled with acid.' if the DM says 'he is not blind/restrained' just note that regardless, he cannot see you, and therefore everyone has advantage against him.

Wow, that's nasty. Yeah, if I take Phantasmal Force with this (or another) character, I'll have to remember that one. :smallamused:



Remember, too, that sorcerers are an extreme Nova class. They can easily blow through all their resources in a single encounter. So you will not be a major force in all encounters, just the ones where you use resources.

Hmm, that's pretty much the antithesis of my mindset when playing a caster. :smallfrown:



As the only full caster in the party, you offer a lot to the group. You might consider Haste if you want to buff the party some. Those are really good stats, btw. Don't be afraid to do more in the rp-department outside of combat, esp. for things involving Intelligence, which no one else in the party is likely to have as high as you do. With high Charisma, you're also most likely the party's face, so even if you can't shine in combat, you can be the party's representative in interacting with npcs.

Well, as I said, the out-of-combat stuff with this character is fine (though, I'm rarely our representative for various reasons). It's the combat that's a pain.



One thing you don't mention is using Darkness. As a shadow sorcerer, you can cast Darkness using sorcery points and, when you do, you can see in that darkness, even though no one else can (unless they have Devil's sight, which almost nothing does). That will make you an unseen attacker in combat, giving you advantage on every attack roll the enemies, who cannot see you, will have disadvantage on attack rolls against you. This tactic is your go-to approach for most combats (at least the combats nontrivial enough to warrant spending sorcery points) and will greatly increase your damage output, not to mention reducing your damage taken.

That's a good point. I guess it just seems like a waste at the moment - since my attacks are pretty crap even when they do hit (hence, Advantage doesn't mean a whole lot).

Also, you say that it should be my go-to approach for combats, but how? I have 3 sorcery points and it takes 2 of them just to cast Darkness. So if I want to use it more than once per day, I have to start burning spell slots to get more spell points. Is that really a good idea? Especially when I need to use those spells to inflict any meaningful damage.

[LeonBH]

A level 3 Sorc should try to check all of the following items:

1. Has a ranged attack cantrip (Firebolt is best)
2. Has a melee attack cantrip (Shocking Grasp is best, GFB if going gish)
3. Spells are as defensive as possible
4. Almost all spells do not require concentration

If I were a L3 Sorc, I'd take Mage Armor and Shield as two of my four spells (because a Sorc knows a number of spells equal to their level plus one).

The remaining two spells are a toss up, but I'd never take an attack spell. You simply don't have enough spell slots to play a blaster yet. Mirror Image, Invisibility, Suggestion, or Phantasmal Force are all good picks.

Your metamagic choices are also expensive. You can't Quicken a spell round after round at level 3, and there's very few things you can do with a quickened spell at that level. Meanwhile, Twin Spell is best used on buffs because you're liable to miss attacks or the targets pass their saves (since you have such a low DC). But it is also very expensive.

You just have to focus on defensive play here. If you feel like your spells aren't helping, don't forget you can use the Help action to grant advantage.

[Talamare]

Last time I played a Sorcerer my spells at 3 were Disguise Self, Fog Cloud, Invisibility, Suggestion

You don't need to shine in combat to be a useful member of the team

[Lombra]

Just try to enjoy the character and have fun with it. You choose very few damage spells, so that's why you are feeling bad in combat, pick whatever and have fun with it, there's nothing to compete for.

[Mara]

Twin your cantrips. One sorc point to do double damage in any encounter with 2+ creatures left.

[samcifer]

(because a Sorc knows a number of spells equal to their level plus one).

But at lv. 17 and beyond, the maximum number of spells a sorc knows is 6 cantrips and 15 leveled spells (16 for Divine Soul and the UA version of Favored Soul). You get a new spell known per level up to lv. 11, then it drops down to one extra spell for every 2 levels beyond that, capping at lv. 17, which is imo the worst thing about sorcerers. The only way to overcome this with via multiclassing. Magic Initiate can also help to partially alleviate this. (I would recommend going sorc if you want attack cantrips and taking either Mage Armor or Shield for your lv. 1 spell.)

[LeonBH]

But at lv. 17 and beyond, the maximum number of spells a sorc knows is 6 cantrips and 15 leveled spells (16 for Divine Soul and the UA version of Favored Soul). You get a new spell known per level up to lv. 11, then it drops down to one extra spell for every 2 levels beyond that, capping at lv. 17, which is imo the worst thing about sorcerers. The only way to overcome this with via multiclassing. Magic Initiate can also help to partially alleviate this. (I would recommend going sorc if you want attack cantrips and taking either Mage Armor or Shield for your lv. 1 spell.)

I was simplifying. Up to level 10, the Sorc's spells known is their spell level plus one, which applies to the OP. At higher levels, they know less spells.

Personally, I like that the Sorcs don't have an expanded spell list. Spell preparation is a big pain, creativity is brought about by restrictions/spontaneity, too much freedom just invites overthinking. The Sorc is supposed to be specialized in one thing anyway, and they're very good at that one thing they decide to specialize in.

Honestly, the only thing I dislike about Sorcs is the low HD. They didn't go to magic school like Wizards, so they should have gotten at least a d8 like Bards and Warlocks.

[samcifer]

I was simplifying. Up to level 10, the Sorc's spells known is their spell level plus one, which applies to the OP. At higher levels, they know less spells.

Personally, I like that the Sorcs don't have an expanded spell list. Spell preparation is a big pain, creativity is brought about by restrictions/spontaneity, too much freedom just invites overthinking. The Sorc is supposed to be specialized in one thing anyway, and they're very good at that one thing they decide to specialize in.

Honestly, the only thing I dislike about Sorcs is the low HD. They didn't go to magic school like Wizards, so they should have gotten at least a d8 like Bards and Warlocks.

Yeah, the low hp really sucks. I'm at lv. 5 and don't get my first ASI/feat until next level (Divine Soul 3 / Hexblade 2) and only have 32 hp. :(

[Dr. Cliché]

Just try to enjoy the character and have fun with it.

If I was having fun with it, I wouldn't have started this thread in the first place.


You choose very few damage spells, so that's why you are feeling bad in combat

Half my cantrips are damage spells, along with half my spells known. Am I supposed to take nothing but damage spells to be worthwhile?


pick whatever and have fun with it

I did 'pick whatever'. It did not result in fun.


there's nothing to compete for.

Perhaps not, but being a dead-weight in combat doesn't make for a fun experience either.

[Zejety]

Sorry to disappoint everyone, but Dragon's Breath can't be twinned as per Jeremy Crawford. I know I was disappointed.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/944272988983062528

[Temperjoke]

For what it's worth, I like the flexibility in chromatic orb, since you can change the damage depending on your enemy. I have to say though, at low levels non-warlock spellcasters struggle a little more, due to recovery time from spending their resources, and having fewer resources to spend. It gets better over time, but it does test the patience and groups some times, especially when everyone is used to hearing stories of the game warping things sorcerers and wizards do later in game.

[samcifer]

Sorry to disappoint everyone, but Dragon's Breath can't be twinned as per Jeremy Crawford. I know I was disappointed.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/944272988983062528

But he allows Ice Knife to be twinned. If the casting of Dragon's Breath affects a single target in the form of a creature who gains the breath attack, then why can't it be twinned if the breath attack is a separate action? His ruling makes very little sense. :/

[Zejety]

But he allows Ice Knife to be twinned. If the casting of Dragon's Breath affects a single target in the form of a creature who gains the breath attack, then why can't it be twinned if the breath attack is a separate action? His ruling makes very little sense. :/

Not to derail the thread, but I hadn't seen that ruling before and googling brought up this consistent ruling: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/11/can-i-use-twinned-spell-on-ice-knife/
Do you have a link on him saying it's twinnable?

[Naanomi]

If you feel like you are not contributing to the party enough to have fun, imagine how that poor Halfling Ranger feels...

[Jack Bitters]

The halfling ranger is probably putting out three attacks in a turn for 5d6+9 damage. Nothing weak about rangers in these early levels..

[samcifer]

Not to derail the thread, but I hadn't seen that ruling before and googling brought up this consistent ruling: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/11/can-i-use-twinned-spell-on-ice-knife/
Do you have a link on him saying it's twinnable?

Unless that was an old ruling you found. Last I heard, IK CAN be twinned because the initial attack hits a single target and the burst is a secondardy effect, but as the INITIAL target is a single creature, it was twinable. It sounds like he likely changed his mind on the ruling at some point. :(

[Talamare]

Unless that was an old ruling you found. Last I heard, IK CAN be twinned because the initial attack hits a single target and the burst is a secondardy effect, but as the INITIAL target is a single creature, it was twinable. It sounds like he likely changed his mind on the ruling at some point. :(

Originally it was that Twin needed the word Target in it

These days its become 'affect'

Which causes people to insult Craw by saying then by his logic Haste is no longer twinnable. Since the extra attacks can 'affect' others...

[Strangways]

That's a good point. I guess it just seems like a waste at the moment - since my attacks are pretty crap even when they do hit (hence, Advantage doesn't mean a whole lot).

Also, you say that it should be my go-to approach for combats, but how? I have 3 sorcery points and it takes 2 of them just to cast Darkness. So if I want to use it more than once per day, I have to start burning spell slots to get more spell points. Is that really a good idea? Especially when I need to use those spells to inflict any meaningful damage.

For trivial combats I wouldn't bother casting Darkness. For major combats, casting Darkness to get advantage is worth it. It will give you advantage for every single round of combat, thereby increasing your chances of hitting and increasing your chances of landing a critical hit. It will also make you much harder to hit, thereby taking pressure off the healers in the party. Your cantrips don't look like much now, but Chill Touch will double its damage, from 1d8 to 2d8, when you hit level 5, which means a crit will be 4d8.

As a caster, you can't compare your round-by-round damage to the martial classes. If you compare your cantrips to their weapon attacks, you're always going to be disappointed. Yes, your cantrips look weak compared to that rogue's sneak attack damage or that barbarian's two-handed weapon with strength bonus damage, but comparing your cantrips to their weapon attacks isn't an apples to apples comparison. Your spells, especially as you go up in levels, will do much more damage than their weapon attacks, especially against groups of opponents, but those spells are a limited resource. In other words, your damage output is relatively spiky, going way up when you burn spell slots, then subsiding when you fall back on cantrips, whereas the damage output of the martial classes is relatively even. The sorcerer (like the wizard) is designed to save spell slots for when they're necessary, and rely on cantrips the rest of the time.

What separates a sorcerer from a wizard is metamagic. Without metamagic, you're basically just a wizard with far fewer spells. Put another way, being a sorcerer instead of a wizard is all about strategic use of metamagic to make your spells hit harder than the equivalent spell coming from a wizard.

You point out that Darkness costs two sorcery points so you can only do it once at level 3 unless you burn spell slots to get more sorcery points. That's true, and I'd say two things about that. First, I know there are many, many fans of the Twin spell metamagic, who urge sorcerers to get it as one of their first metamagics. I'm not a fan of that approach because it is so expensive, you just don't have the sorcery points to sustain use of it. I'd suggest instead starting with cheaper metamagics with guaranteed effects, such as empowered and subtle. As for Darkness specifically, suppose you cast it in a major fight, thinking you'll have a chance for a long rest afterwards, but it turns out there's another major fight after that, with no chance of a long rest. Then you have a choice - do without Darkness or burn a spell slot for the sorcery points so you can cast Darkness again. Sometimes the right approach will be the first choice, sometimes it will be the second depending on the fight. Part of being a sorcerer is making that kind of tactical decision.

Finally, I don't recall you mentioning a lot of details about your character in your original post, so I'm not sure what race you are, or what your DEX store is. If you have a DEX score of 14, and certainly if you have a DEX score of 16, then I'd suggest using a light crossbow until you get to level 5. Because you get to add your DEX bonus to the crossbow's damage, the crossbow will out perform your cantrips until your cantrips start doing two damage dice per hit at level 5. This isn't anything specific to a sorcerer. Wizards are in the same situation, though Xanathar's partially alleviated that with the new Toll the Dead cantrip. If you're an Elf, you can do even better and use a longbow instead of a light crossbow for the best range in the game. Also, if you're an elf, hopefully you have a 17 charisma so that you can get Elven Accuracy for your feat at level 4. That will bring your CHA to 18 and let you re-roll one of your d20 attack rolls whenever you attack with advantage, essentially being able to roll 3d20s to hit instead of 2. As a shadow sorcerer, you're going to be spending a lot of time casting from Darkness with advantage so Elven Accuracy will significantly increase your number of hits and number of crits.

I know that sorcerer can seem a bit weak at level 3. Wizards can feel the same way. But getting to level 5 makes a huge difference, and getting your Hound of Ill Omen at level 6 makes a big difference too.

I'd also suggest looking around for good sorcerer guides, especially on the critical subject of spell selection. Because sorcerers get very few spells, it's critically important to choose a good mix of flexible spells that will let you target the weak points of your opponents. For example, you don't want to rely entirely on attack roll spells (as opposed to saving throw spells) only to inevitably run into that opponent with 26 AC but a -2 WIS save.

[SharkForce]

I'd also suggest looking around for good sorcerer guides, especially on the critical subject of spell selection. Because sorcerers get very few spells, it's critically important to choose a good mix of flexible spells that will let you target the weak points of your opponents. For example, you don't want to rely entirely on attack roll spells (as opposed to saving throw spells) only to inevitably run into that opponent with 26 AC but a -2 WIS save.

again, this is the wrong way to go about it.

as you noted, sorcerer is about getting the most out of your metamagic. that means no, you don't go to a guide, pick whatever is rated highest, and move on. the character he currently has very likely came from that exactly. as a sorcerer, you don't pick spells or metamagic separately if you want to be effective. you pick spells and metamagics together, otherwise you wind up with web and twin spell, neither of them workswith the other, and now you're a crappier wizard.

as a sorcerer, you choose what "tricks" you want to be able to do, and unfortunately, there isn't really a good guide on that. you need to figure out what combination of spell and metamagic is going to let you do something cool so that you can at least have something that other people can't do just as well. choosing "the best" spells is what wizards do, because their thing is having the right spell for the job. as a sorcerer, that isn't going to cut it. you can't change your spells daily, you can't have every spell in your spellbook, you can't ritual cast every ritual spell you know, so you need to figure out not just that you want web or suggestion, but that you want careful web or subtle suggestion.

[Strangways]

as you noted, sorcerer is about getting the most out of your metamagic. that means no, you don't go to a guide, pick whatever is rated highest, and move on.

I don't suggest that the OP mindlessly follow a guide. I suggest that he read multiple guides, think about why they make the recommendations that they do, then select his spells and metamagic in accordance with his priorities.

[Raif]

As a newish player myself who started with Sorcerers because of flavor - I feel you so much.

I started a game about a year ago and we started from level 1 and I felt pretty useless till level 5. Sat there doing piddly damage while the ranger right next to me is doing much more damage, the bard providing insane control (also had an instrument of the bards at level 3 so there's that...). I started off with Quicken and Twin as well.

I did in fact go and read guides. I had to sit and think about what it is I wanted from my character. Did I want a blaster? A controller? A buffer/debuffer? I looked at a few guides to see what they said about spells, to see combos and such (the guide here on gaintip by Evil Anagram helped a lot). Once I settled on damage & buff/debuff I knew how to build my character.

I ended up multiclassing for 2 levels into warlock (yes, I read you don't want to) and redoing my spell selection to include things like Haste, Banishment, Polymorph, Hold Person due to having Twin Spell. I then took Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Detect Magic because we needed it so the bard could use their control spells more often and not focus on counterspelling (I didn't take Hypnotic Pattern or Fear because the bard has those). I took that role because I wanted to and there's never such a thing as too many counterspells.

The EB/AB combo gave me the consistent DPR I wished to keep up with the martial characters and let my spell choices be buffs/debuffs. Even now, I re-read all spells to see if there is anything I can change to add more buffs/debuffs.

Low level for sorcerers suck so much, it is enough to turn anyone away from the class if you don't know what you're doing while walking in and have a very clear idea of the spells and what role you want from your PC.

For damage at those levels till I MC'd to warlock I would use Chromatic Orb as my damage and twinned it as often as possible. It wasn't till level 5 that my cantrips let me do any decent damage beyond the Spell Slot usage.

So first step is always - what do you want from your PC? What role do you want to fulfill? From there, we can help. From what I see, you're spell list is clashing with what you want to do.

Choose a primary role and a secondary role:
- Blaster
- Buffer/debuffer
- Controller

Once you got that picked (choose what you want to play, not necessarily what your party asks you to do), lets review your spell list in lieu of your ice/necrotic theme.

[ProseBeforeHos]

What about choices for lv2+ spells?

I'd say flaming sphere is your best damage option; 2d6 damage as a bonus action, a little area control and the ability to blast away with your cantrips as an action Scorching Ray is good too I guess :smallannoyed:

"Being good at combat" doesn't just mean damage though. You're not supposed to beat the fighter or rogue at single target DPR, you're strengths are AOE damage and CC. Honestly a spell like Web or Phantasmal Force can be devastating at low levels for taking critical targets out of a tough fight. Just save your spell slots for the tougher fights and let the martial classes handle "grunt work" of clearing mobs.


So the way to not suck with a sorcerer is to play a different class? Fantastic.

No. Sorcs get stronger and stronger as levels go up. While I do admit that I wish they had +2 spells known compared to what they actually get (how I homebrew them) you can still be a force in your party. When you hit level 5 (fireball is insane at this level) and level 6 (CR 1 summon for 3 sorc points) you'll find that your life gets a lot easier.

Also, if you can get your hands on something as simple as a wand of magic missiles you can see your damage between long rests go up by a lot. You are the natural user of action activated items, since your base damage without expending spell slots is the lowest.

[SharkForce]

I'd say flaming sphere is your best damage option; 2d6 damage as a bonus action, a little area control and the ability to blast away with your cantrips as an action.

"Being good at combat" doesn't just mean damage though. You're not supposed to beat the fighter or rogue at single target DPR, you're strengths are AOE damage and CC. Honestly a spell like Web or Phantasmal Force can be devastating at low levels for taking critical targets out of a tough fight. Just save your spell slots for the tougher fights and let the martial classes handle "grunt work" of clearing mobs.

flaming sphere is not on the sorcerer spell list. i have no idea why it isn't, but hey, it isn't like it's the only good spell that is missing from the sorcerer spell list for no discernable reason.

[Snivlem]

At 1st and 2nd level you can not suck by spamming sleep, which is pretty much God mode at that level.
From 3rd level you can not suck by doing things like twinned suggestion (or hold person/phantasmal force if your DM nerfs that spell), which is, again, pretty much god-mode at that level.
From 5th level you have stuff like fireball/hypnoitic pattern/twinned haste etc. You won't need much help from there.

The problem with sorcerers is that they have to pick their spells very carefully. If you pick the right spells at the appropriative levels, they are not at all weak in combat (not even at low levels)

[Asmotherion]

I'm currently playing in a campaign as a Shadow sorcerer. I'm really enjoying my character in terms of personality/roleplaying. However, whenever it comes to combat, they're about as effective as a dead gerbil. Arguably less so as at least the other characters wouldn't have to worry about protecting a dead gerbil.

We're currently Lv3, and I've got the following spell list:

Chill Touch
Frostbite
Prestigitation
Minor Illusion

Shield
Chromatic Orb
Sleep

Maximilian's Earthen Grasp

(For the most part, I was aiming for a cold/shadow/necrotic theme.)

Anyway, it just seems like I just don't do anything meaningful in combat. My cantrips either do pitiful damage or nothing at all. Sleep gets maybe 1 weak enemy at most. Maximilian's Earthen Grasp has so far failed to do anything.

Have I just chosen bad spells? If so, what should I pick instead?

Otherwise, can anyone give me any advice on playing a (shadow) sorcerer and doing something meaningful with them in combat?


The most direct thing to do, is Warlock dip. I love what you're doing with this character, and this is why I love Sorlocks so much; Invest a couple levels of Warlock for Eldritch Blast to have an excelent weapon/combat option, and the rest of your character is completelly Role Playing Customisable, with no optimisation (at-least, no Combat Optimisation) in mind, instead focusing on the Character Concept/RP of the Character completelly.

Thankfully, Hexblade is very Vanilla/Concept Correct for your Character, so you need not worry about breaking your Character. You'll also be able to Gish a bit with this.

I suppose there will be other answears to your problem, and perhaps this is not what you're looking for; I still suggest it as a great alternative to consider, as I firmly believe it will help you.

[Dr. Cliché]

For trivial combats I wouldn't bother casting Darkness. For major combats, casting Darkness to get advantage is worth it. It will give you advantage for every single round of combat, thereby increasing your chances of hitting and increasing your chances of landing a critical hit. It will also make you much harder to hit, thereby taking pressure off the healers in the party. Your cantrips don't look like much now, but Chill Touch will double its damage, from 1d8 to 2d8, when you hit level 5, which means a crit will be 4d8.

I look forward to eventually doing worthwhile damage when I'm lucky enough to crit.



As a caster, you can't compare your round-by-round damage to the martial classes. If you compare your cantrips to their weapon attacks, you're always going to be disappointed. Yes, your cantrips look weak compared to that rogue's sneak attack damage or that barbarian's two-handed weapon with strength bonus damage, but comparing your cantrips to their weapon attacks isn't an apples to apples comparison. Your spells, especially as you go up in levels, will do much more damage than their weapon attacks, especially against groups of opponents, but those spells are a limited resource. In other words, your damage output is relatively spiky, going way up when you burn spell slots, then subsiding when you fall back on cantrips, whereas the damage output of the martial classes is relatively even. The sorcerer (like the wizard) is designed to save spell slots for when they're necessary, and rely on cantrips the rest of the time.

You say that, but even my non-Cantrip spells rarely even match their damage, let alone exceed it. Currently, it seems like I have to spend resources to be almost as good as they are.



What separates a sorcerer from a wizard is metamagic. Without metamagic, you're basically just a wizard with far fewer spells. Put another way, being a sorcerer instead of a wizard is all about strategic use of metamagic to make your spells hit harder than the equivalent spell coming from a wizard.

I see. Well, given that I already hate metamagic, I guess I'm in for a bad time with this class.



You point out that Darkness costs two sorcery points so you can only do it once at level 3 unless you burn spell slots to get more sorcery points. That's true, and I'd say two things about that. First, I know there are many, many fans of the Twin spell metamagic, who urge sorcerers to get it as one of their first metamagics. I'm not a fan of that approach because it is so expensive, you just don't have the sorcery points to sustain use of it. I'd suggest instead starting with cheaper metamagics with guaranteed effects, such as empowered and subtle. As for Darkness specifically, suppose you cast it in a major fight, thinking you'll have a chance for a long rest afterwards, but it turns out there's another major fight after that, with no chance of a long rest. Then you have a choice - do without Darkness or burn a spell slot for the sorcery points so you can cast Darkness again. Sometimes the right approach will be the first choice, sometimes it will be the second depending on the fight. Part of being a sorcerer is making that kind of tactical decision.

The thing is, it seems like I don't have enough spell points for any metamagic. Especially if I'm also planning to use Darkness or the Shadow Wolf thing at lv6. If I use Darkness even once then I'm left with a single spell point to use on a metamagic ability. That doesn't seem like enough to want to build around. And if I want to use the lv6 Shadow Wolf ability more then once per day, that'll consume my entire daily allotment of spell points.



Finally, I don't recall you mentioning a lot of details about your character in your original post, so I'm not sure what race you are, or what your DEX store is. If you have a DEX score of 14, and certainly if you have a DEX score of 16, then I'd suggest using a light crossbow until you get to level 5. Because you get to add your DEX bonus to the crossbow's damage, the crossbow will out perform your cantrips until your cantrips start doing two damage dice per hit at level 5. This isn't anything specific to a sorcerer. Wizards are in the same situation, though Xanathar's partially alleviated that with the new Toll the Dead cantrip. If you're an Elf, you can do even better and use a longbow instead of a light crossbow for the best range in the game. Also, if you're an elf, hopefully you have a 17 charisma so that you can get Elven Accuracy for your feat at level 4. That will bring your CHA to 18 and let you re-roll one of your d20 attack rolls whenever you attack with advantage, essentially being able to roll 3d20s to hit instead of 2. As a shadow sorcerer, you're going to be spending a lot of time casting from Darkness with advantage so Elven Accuracy will significantly increase your number of hits and number of crits.

She's a half-elf with 14 Dex and 18 Cha. I can give the crossbow a go, but having a significantly worse to-hit bonus makes me wary of it.



I know that sorcerer can seem a bit weak at level 3. Wizards can feel the same way. But getting to level 5 makes a huge difference, and getting your Hound of Ill Omen at level 6 makes a big difference too.

Yeah, I get it. Sorcerers get better eventually. But that knowledge doesn't make the intervening levels and less tedious.


I'd also suggest looking around for good sorcerer guides, especially on the critical subject of spell selection.

Having never played a sorcerer before, I did exactly that.

That was de facto precisely how I came to end up with this sodding mess of a character. :smallfrown:



as you noted, sorcerer is about getting the most out of your metamagic. that means no, you don't go to a guide, pick whatever is rated highest, and move on. the character he currently has very likely came from that exactly. as a sorcerer, you don't pick spells or metamagic separately if you want to be effective. you pick spells and metamagics together, otherwise you wind up with web and twin spell, neither of them workswith the other, and now you're a crappier wizard.

Pretty much.

To be honest, when I picked metamagic, I thought it was something that would only matter in later levels anyway. I mean, I've currently got barely any spell points to begin with (and casting Darkness uses up 2/3 of them), and from lv6 onwards I'd thought that most of them would be used to summon the Shadow Wolf (which would also stand in for Heighten Spell). I do regret not picking Subtle Spell, but all the guides I read basically marked it as pointless (making it seem like a rather bad choice for my first Sorcerer).



as a sorcerer, you choose what "tricks" you want to be able to do, and unfortunately, there isn't really a good guide on that. you need to figure out what combination of spell and metamagic is going to let you do something cool so that you can at least have something that other people can't do just as well. choosing "the best" spells is what wizards do, because their thing is having the right spell for the job. as a sorcerer, that isn't going to cut it. you can't change your spells daily, you can't have every spell in your spellbook, you can't ritual cast every ritual spell you know, so you need to figure out not just that you want web or suggestion, but that you want careful web or subtle suggestion.

That's good to know. I wish I'd read it before I made my character. :smallconfused:


As a newish player myself who started with Sorcerers because of flavor - I feel you so much.

I started a game about a year ago and we started from level 1 and I felt pretty useless till level 5. Sat there doing piddly damage while the ranger right next to me is doing much more damage, the bard providing insane control (also had an instrument of the bards at level 3 so there's that...). I started off with Quicken and Twin as well.

I did in fact go and read guides. I had to sit and think about what it is I wanted from my character. Did I want a blaster? A controller? A buffer/debuffer? I looked at a few guides to see what they said about spells, to see combos and such (the guide here on gaintip by Evil Anagram helped a lot). Once I settled on damage & buff/debuff I knew how to build my character.

I ended up multiclassing for 2 levels into warlock (yes, I read you don't want to) and redoing my spell selection to include things like Haste, Banishment, Polymorph, Hold Person due to having Twin Spell. I then took Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Detect Magic because we needed it so the bard could use their control spells more often and not focus on counterspelling (I didn't take Hypnotic Pattern or Fear because the bard has those). I took that role because I wanted to and there's never such a thing as too many counterspells.

The EB/AB combo gave me the consistent DPR I wished to keep up with the martial characters and let my spell choices be buffs/debuffs. Even now, I re-read all spells to see if there is anything I can change to add more buffs/debuffs.

Low level for sorcerers suck so much, it is enough to turn anyone away from the class if you don't know what you're doing while walking in and have a very clear idea of the spells and what role you want from your PC.

For damage at those levels till I MC'd to warlock I would use Chromatic Orb as my damage and twinned it as often as possible. It wasn't till level 5 that my cantrips let me do any decent damage beyond the Spell Slot usage.

Thanks for the input. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who experienced this. :smallsmile:


So first step is always - what do you want from your PC? What role do you want to fulfill? From there, we can help. From what I see, you're spell list is clashing with what you want to do.

Choose a primary role and a secondary role:
- Blaster
- Buffer/debuffer
- Controller

Once you got that picked (choose what you want to play, not necessarily what your party asks you to do), lets review your spell list in lieu of your ice/necrotic theme.

Thinking about it, I think Debuffer and Controller would be the best fit for my character. Not sure which I'd want as my primary role - it might depend on their respective spell lists.

Regarding my theme, Necrotic/vampire-y would be more accurate. I only went with ice because necrotic seemed rather underrepresented on the sorcerer spell list. :smalltongue:



"Being good at combat" doesn't just mean damage though. You're not supposed to beat the fighter or rogue at single target DPR, you're strengths are AOE damage and CC. Honestly a spell like Web or Phantasmal Force can be devastating at low levels for taking critical targets out of a tough fight. Just save your spell slots for the tougher fights and let the martial classes handle "grunt work" of clearing mobs.

I have a couple of questions:
1) Is there a winner between Phantasmal Force and Suggestion, or should I aim to have both?
2) Regarding Phantasmal Force, do you have any suggestions (hah!) for illusions that should keep enemies occupied?


The most direct thing to do, is Warlock dip. I love what you're doing with this character, and this is why I love Sorlocks so much; Invest a couple levels of Warlock for Eldritch Blast to have an excelent weapon/combat option, and the rest of your character is completelly Role Playing Customisable, with no optimisation (at-least, no Combat Optimisation) in mind, instead focusing on the Character Concept/RP of the Character completelly.

Thankfully, Hexblade is very Vanilla/Concept Correct for your Character, so you need not worry about breaking your Character. You'll also be able to Gish a bit with this.

I'm afraid I don't follow you on this. Surely my character pledging their soul/servitude to a dark power or sentient weapon is far from a trivial decision?

Anyway, I get it - Warlock would be a great addition to a sorcerer. If I'd known this earlier, I probably could have tweaked her backstory to have her start as one. However, as it stands, there's just no way she'd go through with something like this.

[Daphne]

I'd ask the DM to swap Quicken Spell to Empowered Spell, Quicken costs too much and you already have Twinned that also costs a lot.

For 1st level spells, Magic Missile (always hits, so you never waste slots) and Thunderwave/Burning Hands (pick just one AoE spell) are useful. For 2nd level I suggest Enlarge Person, you can twin it and it's a very powerful buff for its level. Scorching Ray might be useful, as you can reroll all 6d6 with Empowered Metamagic but maybe you want Mage Armor for AC or an utility spell.

[Jack Bitters]

Keep in mind that you can cannibalize your spell slots for spell points. Depending on how many fights you go through in a day, you may find more mileage out of doing this.

For example, at level 3 you have 4 1st level slots, 2 second level slots, and 3 spell points. You could turn those 3 spell points into an other second level a lot, and consume your first level slots, and be left with three 2nd slots and 4 points, enough to cast web once and twinned suggestion twice. However, that's only three spells in the entire day--leaving you with cantrips for the rest of it. So you do have to pick your moments carefully.

On the flip side, you could turn one second level slot into 2 extra spell points and cast twinned chromatic orb three times at 1st level and once at 2nd level, and then finish with a single chromatic orb. There's damage potential there--5 spells for a total of 29d8--but once again, your power is consumed quickly.

Finally as an example, you could consume all your spell points and just twin cantrips and you would be able to do that 11 times.

So if you have a general sense of how many encounters you go through in between long rests, you can try and budget your spells to use for big flashy moments (because twinned hold person or suggestion or even enlarge/reduce is game-changing at level 3), or you can create more spell slots and spread your resources out. Figure out what works for your game.

[Dr. Cliché]

Keep in mind that you can cannibalize your spell slots for spell points.

True, but I don't have many of those, either. :smallwink:



For example, at level 3 you have 4 1st level slots, 2 second level slots, and 3 spell points. You could turn those 3 spell points into an other second level a lot, and consume your first level slots, and be left with three 2nd slots and 4 points, enough to cast web once and twinned suggestion twice. However, that's only three spells in the entire day--leaving you with cantrips for the rest of it. So you do have to pick your moments carefully.

On the flip side, you could turn one second level slot into 2 extra spell points and cast twinned chromatic orb three times at 1st level and once at 2nd level, and then finish with a single chromatic orb. There's damage potential there--5 spells for a total of 29d8--but once again, your power is consumed quickly.

Finally as an example, you could consume all your spell points and just twin cantrips and you would be able to do that 11 times.

So if you have a general sense of how many encounters you go through in between long rests, you can try and budget your spells to use for big flashy moments (because twinned hold person or suggestion or even enlarge/reduce is game-changing at level 3), or you can create more spell slots and spread your resources out. Figure out what works for your game.

Honestly, I'm always kinda uncomfortable using up a lot of resources in a single encounter (outside of boss battles and such). I get that it's what a sorcerer wants to do, but it's hard to get out of the mindset of being conservative with limited resources.

[Jack Bitters]

What race are you? If you're a tiefling or drow, you would have some racial spells you can cast when you don't want to use your sorcerer spells. Maybe when you hit level 4 you can take a racial feat that gives you more options in combat (dragon fear, orcish fury) or a regular feat--taking magic initiate as a sorcerer effectively gives you one more 1st level spell.

I'm assuming you're using Xanathar's because you're playing a shadow sorcerer.

[strangebloke]

I wouldn't dip warlock. 3 through 5 are quick levels, and if you get to drop haste you'll feel super OP.

Fireball is actually only great for you when compared with other options, instead of being utterly overpowered.

[Dr. Cliché]

What race are you? If you're a tiefling or drow, you would have some racial spells you can cast when you don't want to use your sorcerer spells. Maybe when you hit level 4 you can take a racial feat that gives you more options in combat (dragon fear, orcish fury) or a regular feat--taking magic initiate as a sorcerer effectively gives you one more 1st level spell.

I'm assuming you're using Xanathar's because you're playing a shadow sorcerer.

I'm a half-elf. And yeah, I'm using Xanthar's guide.

[Strangways]

True, but I don't have many of those, either. :smallwink:
Honestly, I'm always kinda uncomfortable using up a lot of resources in a single encounter (outside of boss battles and such). I get that it's what a sorcerer wants to do, but it's hard to get out of the mindset of being conservative with limited resources.

Personally, when I play sorcerers (and wizards) I don't like to spend level 1 spell slots on damage spells either. They don't do that much more damage than cantrips and I'd rather save the slots for Shield and Absorb Elements.

Your single target damage isn't going to match the single target damage output of a rogue or fighter. That's not the strength of a sorcerer. But when you toss a fireball into a group of 10 orcs, you're going to do more damage in that instant than the rogue or fighter will do in the entire combat. Spend your spell slots where they count 1) keeping you alive (e.g. Shield and Absorb Elements, 2) spells that damage multiple opponents, and 3) control and buffing/debuffing spells.

[Strangways]

You say that, but even my non-Cantrip spells rarely even match their damage, let alone exceed it. Currently, it seems like I have to spend resources to be almost as good as they are.

I see. Well, given that I already hate metamagic, I guess I'm in for a bad time with this class.

The thing is, it seems like I don't have enough spell points for any metamagic. Especially if I'm also planning to use Darkness or the Shadow Wolf thing at lv6. If I use Darkness even once then I'm left with a single spell point to use on a metamagic ability. That doesn't seem like enough to want to build around. And if I want to use the lv6 Shadow Wolf ability more then once per day, that'll consume my entire daily allotment of spell points.

She's a half-elf with 14 Dex and 18 Cha. I can give the crossbow a go, but having a significantly worse to-hit bonus makes me wary of it.

Yeah, I get it. Sorcerers get better eventually. But that knowledge doesn't make the intervening levels and less tedious.

Having never played a sorcerer before, I did exactly that.

That was de facto precisely how I came to end up with this sodding mess of a character. :smallfrown:

Pretty much.

To be honest, when I picked metamagic, I thought it was something that would only matter in later levels anyway. I mean, I've currently got barely any spell points to begin with (and casting Darkness uses up 2/3 of them), and from lv6 onwards I'd thought that most of them would be used to summon the Shadow Wolf (which would also stand in for Heighten Spell). I do regret not picking Subtle Spell, but all the guides I read basically marked it as pointless (making it seem like a rather bad choice for my first Sorcerer).

That's good to know. I wish I'd read it before I made my character. :smallconfused:

Thanks for the input. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who experienced this. :smallsmile:

Thinking about it, I think Debuffer and Controller would be the best fit for my character. Not sure which I'd want as my primary role - it might depend on their respective spell lists.

Regarding my theme, Necrotic/vampire-y would be more accurate. I only went with ice because necrotic seemed rather underrepresented on the sorcerer spell list. :smalltongue:

I have a couple of questions:
1) Is there a winner between Phantasmal Force and Suggestion, or should I aim to have both?
2) Regarding Phantasmal Force, do you have any suggestions (hah!) for illusions that should keep enemies occupied?

I'm afraid I don't follow you on this. Surely my character pledging their soul/servitude to a dark power or sentient weapon is far from a trivial decision?

Anyway, I get it - Warlock would be a great addition to a sorcerer. If I'd known this earlier, I probably could have tweaked her backstory to have her start as one. However, as it stands, there's just no way she'd go through with something like this.

Right now, you're level 3, and have only level 1 spells and one level 2 spell. You don't really start getting Area of Effect spells until level 5, when you start getting level 3 spells, including the big hammer of Fireball. Note that Fireball does 8d6 fire damage to everyone in a large radius and, if you have a lousy damage roll (let's say 4 of the dice are 1s or 2s), then just a single point spent on empowered metamagic will let you reroll all those 1s and 2s.

There are a couple of AoE options in level 2 spells, e.g. Shatter is a reasonable option, but with only 1 level 2 spell slot to spend, I'd rather save it for Mirror Image and stay alive.

You don't have a lot of sorcery points at level 3 so your metamagic options are limited. Monks face a similar situation with Ki points in that they also get 1 point per level, leaving them feeling very Ki-starved at low levels (though at least they recovery Ki points on a long rest). This will improve as you go up in levels and get a better sense of when it's worthwhile to burn spell slots to gain more sorcery points.

Regarding the light crossbow, if you have a 14 DEX you will have a +4 to hit with the crossbow (+2 DEX and +2 for proficiency). This is only one lower than the +5 you'd have with attack cantrips (+3 CHA and +2 proficiency) whereas the crossbow will do an extra 2 points of damage (from DEX) if it hits compared with a cantrip. If you're up against a low AC target you're likely to hit anyway, you have the crossbow option until cantrips double their damage at level 5. Against high AC targets, it's generally better to target their (likely) weak saving throws than to try to hit them with attack rolls.

[Dr. Cliché]

Personally, when I play sorcerers (and wizards) I don't like to spend level 1 spell slots on damage spells either. They don't do that much more damage than cantrips and I'd rather save the slots for Shield and Absorb Elements.

Fair enough, but it doesn't make it any less disheartening when I spend resources on a spell and still do less damage than a fighter or such.

Also, for some reason I thought Absorb Elements wasn't on the sorcerer spell list.



Your single target damage isn't going to match the single target damage output of a rogue or fighter. That's not the strength of a sorcerer. But when you toss a fireball into a group of 10 orcs, you're going to do more damage in that instant than the rogue or fighter will do in the entire combat. Spend your spell slots where they count 1) keeping you alive (e.g. Shield and Absorb Elements, 2) spells that damage multiple opponents, and 3) control and buffing/debuffing spells.

Do you have any recommendations for good debuffing or control spells?



Right now, you're level 3, and have only level 1 spells and one level 2 spell. You don't really start getting Area of Effect spells until level 5, when you start getting level 3 spells, including the big hammer of Fireball. Note that Fireball does 8d6 fire damage to everyone in a large radius and, if you have a lousy damage roll (let's say 4 of the dice are 1s or 2s), then just a single point spent on empowered metamagic will let you reroll all those 1s and 2s.

Is Empower not a bit niche though? I mean, if I'm going to be focusing more on debuffing/control spells, then it seems like it will only work about 1/3 of the time (and then only on a bad roll).



Regarding the light crossbow, if you have a 14 DEX you will have a +4 to hit with the crossbow (+2 DEX and +2 for proficiency). This is only one lower than the +5 you'd have with attack cantrips (+3 CHA and +2 proficiency) whereas the crossbow will do an extra 2 points of damage (from DEX) if it hits compared with a cantrip. If you're up against a low AC target you're likely to hit anyway, you have the crossbow option until cantrips double their damage at level 5. Against high AC targets, it's generally better to target their (likely) weak saving throws than to try to hit them with attack rolls.

I have 18 Cha though, so my spell attack is currently +6.

[Naanomi]

If you end up with people in melee range, two dagger attacks ends up better than cantrip damage until level 5 as well

For low level attack spells, the only that generally appeals to me is Magic Missile

[Jack Bitters]

Is anyone playing a grappler in your group? You could cast cloud of daggers and let your friends push enemies to a dicey death in your spell.

Edit: debuffing spells for first level include spells like color spray, charm person, earth tremor, and ray of sickness. Most of those are close-range spells, and generally operate with some kind of saving throw. They certainly aren't super powerful, being level one spells.

For level two, you've got blindness/deafness, crown of madness, darkness, enlarge/reduce, hold person, levitate, phantasmal force, pyrotechnics, suggestion, and web. Most of these are single target and work well with twin, or cover an area, like darkness and web.

Control spells I guess would be spells like create bonfire (cantrip), fog cloud (1st), cloud of daggers, and dust devil (2nd).

[strangebloke]

Also, for some reason I thought Absorb Elements wasn't on the sorcerer spell list.

you have any recommendations for good debuffing or control spells?

Is Empower not a bit niche though? I mean, if I'm going to be focusing more on debuffing/control spells, then it seems like it will only work about 1/3 of the time (and then only on a bad roll).

I have 18 Cha though, so my spell attack is currently +6.

Absorb elements wasn't a sorcerer spell in EE, but it is on the list in XGtE. You will want it eventually but for now it's a little niche.

Hold person, blindness/deafness, and phantasmal force are all very thematic for you and work well with twin spell. Your high charisma means that low WIS enemies will often fail.

Empower is bad for you, especially at this level. In general, it works better with lots of large damage dice. Using it on, say chromatic orb is pointless, especially when compared with twin, which doubles the damage.

[Naanomi]

In the longer term, spells that use saves instead of attack rolls are going to be better synergy with your puppy; including cantrips (one that targets DEX and one that targets CON maybe... very few monsters are good at both)

[Strangways]

Fair enough, but it doesn't make it any less disheartening when I spend resources on a spell and still do less damage than a fighter or such.

Also, for some reason I thought Absorb Elements wasn't on the sorcerer spell list.

Do you have any recommendations for good debuffing or control spells?


Is Empower not a bit niche though? I mean, if I'm going to be focusing more on debuffing/control spells, then it seems like it will only work about 1/3 of the time (and then only on a bad roll).


I have 18 Cha though, so my spell attack is currently +6.

I'm a bit hesitant to recommend this cantrip, and you'll want to dump it eventually, but if you're willing to take the risk of getting into 10' range, you can cast Poison Spray and at least do a d12 for damage (2d12 at level 5). That can feel like a big damage boost over a d8 and will tide you over until you start getting the big AoE damage spells at level 5.

In a grievous injustice, Absorb Elements was not originally a sorcerer spell. But Xanathar's added it to the sorcerer spell list. It's the spell that will let you survive a fireball, lightning bolt, cone of cold etc. You don't typically face those spells at low level so you can do without it initially, but you'll want it eventually.

Empower of course is only useful if you're blasting, but you're going to have at least Fireball, and maybe 1 or 2 other blasting spells. So Empower is worth it just for them even if you're going to focus more on buffing and debuffing. Also, it costs only 1 spell point and you don't have to use it at all if your initial damage roll is good. In other words, it's one of the most efficient metamagics you can get, a big plus if you're concerned about your limited sorcery point supply.

For buffing, Dragon's Breath is a great option. You can pick the damage type, so you don't have to worry about targets that are resistant to one particular type of damage. For the next 10 rounds (longer than most combats), instead of cantrip damage, you'll be breathing fire/acid/lightning etc on groups of opponents for 3d6 damage. If you're concerned about getting close enough to use it, you can cast it on a better-armored party member and let them use it. For a Debuff, Hold Person will effectively end a fight against anyone who fails the saving throw. You and your allies will auto-crit at melee range against a paralyzed opponent, so few targets survive long enough to roll their next saving throw. This spell is going to become really deadly for you when you get the Hound of Ill Omen at level 6 and use it to force disadvantage on your target's saving throw. As a further advantage, you can upcast Hold Person to hit multiple targets. Of course, this spell doesn't help unless you've got humanoid targets, which may not be the case depending on your campaign.

[Dr. Cliché]

I'm a bit hesitant to recommend this cantrip, and you'll want to dump it eventually

Sorry but could I just ask you to elaborate on this?

I was under the impression that Sorcerers couldn't swap out their cantrips at all.

[strangebloke]

Sorry but could I just ask you to elaborate on this?

I was under the impression that Sorcerers couldn't swap out their cantrips at all.
Well, you will want to drop it. :P

It isn't actually bad though, if you have a couple melee guys to hide behind. Remember, it's perfectly practical to run in, spray, and run out. The range is ten feet so you won't be risking a reaction attack usually.

But everything else he said is true, pretty much. I would recommend subtle or careful over empowered though, since they work better with buff/debuff and control spells.

Careful is obvious. You don't have to worry about friendly fire when casting stinking cloud or the like.

Subtle is just awesome. You can cast spells in social situations with no one really noticing. Need to get past a guardpost? Subtly Suggest to the guard that he should let you through. Hiding from a dragon? Subtly cast an illusion over your hidey hole. Talking with someone you're about to fight? Sneakily upcast a debuff on an enemy. (Readying a spell to cast as a reaction requires that you fulfill v&s components as an action, but you use a reaction to make the spell take effect. So normally there is no way to do this without starting combat. But if you subtly cast it...)

Quicken is ok if used with dragon breath, but it's pretty resource intensive.

[Strangways]

Sorry but could I just ask you to elaborate on this?

I was under the impression that Sorcerers couldn't swap out their cantrips at all.

Theoretically, there's no rule that lets you swap out cantrips when you level up, but most DMs will allow it, since you can do so with spells.

Poison Spray does d12 damage, the best cantrip damage die in the game, but it has a very short range (just 10'), poison resistance is fairly common, and monsters often have pretty good CON saves.

It can be worth using at low levels but you'll want to get rid of it eventually. By the time you're up around 7th or 8th level, the last thing you're going to want to do is to get close to any enemies Wizards are the most fragile class in the game, but sorcerers are not that much more robust, so staying at range does a lot to help keep you alive.

There's one other cantrip, Toll the Dead, which also does d12 damage (if the target is already damaged), has a much better range, does necrotic damage and targets WIS - a much softer target. It's a new cantrip, introduced in Xanathar's and, IMO, the best saving-throw based damaging cantrip in the game. Sadly, only clerics and wizards get it, not warlocks.

[Dr. Cliché]

There's one other cantrip, Toll the Dead, which also does d12 damage (if the target is already damaged), has a much better range, does necrotic damage and targets WIS - a much softer target. It's a new cantrip, introduced in Xanathar's and, IMO, the best saving-throw based damaging cantrip in the game. Sadly, only clerics and wizards get it, not warlocks.

Actually, Warlocks do get Toll the Dead.

The issue is that I'm a sorcerer.

[Strangways]

Actually, Warlocks do get Toll the Dead.

The issue is that I'm a sorcerer.

Oops, I mean that sorcerers don't get Toll the Dead. Warlocks do.

[Snivlem]

Dr.Cliche: What are your options to either 1) remake your character, or 2) discard your character and make a new one at the same level?

tbh those seems like your only options. You are clearly very disatisfiesd with your character and you either have to do one of the other or you just won't be having fun. If you want to (and are allowed to) remake the character, it should be obvious in this thread you can make a sorcerer that won't suck even at your current level. For what it's worth, reading it have made me want to play one...

You asked what is the strongest option of phantasmal force and suggestion. The answer depends on how your DM interprets the spells, as both are very reliable on DM interpretation, so you should talk with your DM about the spells on how he/she will handle them. As written, suggestion is especially insanely strong. The spell seems to allow pretty much everything to be a reasonable suggestion except causing harm to themselves. If asking a knight to give up his horse to the first beggar he meets, is reasonable (as the PHB uses as an example), then certainly "Your boss have controled you with a charm spell, help us fight him so we can set you free" or "Help us clear this dungeon, and I will reward you 50.000 gold" certainly also would be. Then consider the duration is 8 hours. It is so strong for a 2nd level spell I reckon most DMS would and should impose more limiltations.

Phantasmal force is also very strong, but can also be completely nerfed to the ground if the DM isn't playing along. You asked for good options with it: If your DM is playing a long I don't see why conjuring the illusion of a scary big ass demon or something wouldn't be enough to lock out most opponents (either causing them to run away or to fight it). (Again) If your DM is playing along, they won't allow them a second save unless they have a reason to do so (such as an ally asking them wtf they are doing fighting a mirage or similar).

Also consider both spells have incredible social use. If you have to pick one I'd go with suggestion, but if you get twinned spell and your DM is playing a long with your tricks I don't think you will regret picking both. Hold person is also very strong and has the upside that it can be upcast and is a very good option if your DM won't play along with S or PH.

One last important factor. Is your DM playing with open rolls? If not - do you trust him? Some DMs will hate loosing their monsters to save or loose spells as this (especially at critical moments), and the fact that you mentioned that the enemies always seems to save against your spells made me wonder. If you have reason to believe your DM might be fudging rolls, you are probably better of going with other options.

[danpit2991]

have you talked to your DM yet about retooling your spells and metamagic? i really think that magic initiate warlock would be the best low level fix barring a retool you could get toll the dead, EB and a first level spell no real roll play is required just flavor it as some sort of magic boost due to your sorcerous powers and that would fix your steady output damage issues

[FabulousFizban]

How to not suck as a Sorcerer:

Step 1: Play a Bard

[Dr. Cliché]

Dr.Cliche: What are your options to either 1) remake your character, or 2) discard your character and make a new one at the same level?

Well, I don't want to scrap this character. And rebuilding it entirely is not an option either.


have you talked to your DM yet about retooling your spells and metamagic?

We're leveling up very soon, and he's given me permission to swap out more spells than usual.

I don't think retooling metamagic is going to happen.

[danpit2991]

i know you would probably want an asi but i stand by what i said about magic initiate or spell sniper i think possibly with swapping out your spells like you are planning you might be better off with sniper and EB because sniper also boosts your other spells range its like you get permanent distant metamagic and you ignore cover so thats a bonus but if you want more spells the magic initiate would be best

[Strangways]

i know you would probably want an asi but i stand by what i said about magic initiate or spell sniper i think possibly with swapping out your spells like you are planning you might be better off with sniper and EB because sniper also boosts your other spells range its like you get permanent distant metamagic and you ignore cover so thats a bonus but if you want more spells the magic initiate would be best

Spell sniper increases only spells involving attack rolls. Distant spell metamagic can double the range of any spell, including saving throw spells, buffs and battlefield control spells.

[danpit2991]

Spell sniper increases only spells involving attack rolls. Distant spell metamagic can double the range of any spell, including saving throw spells, buffs and battlefield control spells.



meh close enough for me, but you are correct my bad

[Garresh]

Sorcerers pick metamagic first, then pick spells based on that.

You have Quicken and Twin. Quicken works best with channeled spells that keep using your actions, but Twin is easy.

Pick powerful single target concentration spells. That's it. Literally do that and you'll be strong. Need a strong CC effect? Levitate. Now you can take 2 creatures out of the fight for 10 minutes.

More good choices:
Phantasmal Force: This is insanely strong. Make them think they're covered in fire ants. Make a dragon think barbed wire is constricting around its wings. Etc.
Moonbeam: Uses your action. You can quicken with your bonus while channeling this for good sustained damage.
Ray of Sickness: Decent damage. A decent debuff. And for 1 sorcery point you hit 2 targets? That's a winner.
Enlarge/Reduce: Its not amazing, but yoy can enlarge 2 party members for extra damage. In an ideal world where you enlarge 2 players and both are dual wielding you get 4d4 damage a round. Not bad.

[Twizzly513]

I recently found a solution to the Sorcerer issue.

Sorcerer was rated the most unsatisfactory class to play in a poll. The source of the poll (it was either on this site or an official WotC poll) has escaped my mind at the moment, but I do remember that piece of data. Sorcerers in past editions were balanced with other class due to flexibility, however in 5th, they really don't have much making them better than wizards. They simply don't have the flexibility. Metamagic rocks when you use it, but many of them are situational at best.

The solution to this, however, is allowing sorcerers to use the spell point variant rule. It gives them the flexibility to nova better and to have more reliable damage that sorcerers simply don't get otherwise. It's worked out well for me in my games, and I don't think it's game breaking (as long as only sorcerer gets it). Talk to your DM. This, I believe, can improve your experience quite a bit.

[LeonBH]

Moonbeam is not on the Sorc's spell list.

Also, Spell Points really are fantastic, but also breaks a certain challenge that Sorcs were supposed to come with - namely, the inefficiencies of converting lower level slots to higher level slots.

[Dr. Cliché]

I recently found a solution to the Sorcerer issue.

Sorcerer was rated the most unsatisfactory class to play in a poll. The source of the poll (it was either on this site or an official WotC poll) has escaped my mind at the moment, but I do remember that piece of data. Sorcerers in past editions were balanced with other class due to flexibility, however in 5th, they really don't have much making them better than wizards. They simply don't have the flexibility. Metamagic rocks when you use it, but many of them are situational at best.

The solution to this, however, is allowing sorcerers to use the spell point variant rule. It gives them the flexibility to nova better and to have more reliable damage that sorcerers simply don't get otherwise. It's worked out well for me in my games, and I don't think it's game breaking (as long as only sorcerer gets it). Talk to your DM. This, I believe, can improve your experience quite a bit.

I really can't see my DM allowing this.

[danpit2991]

I really can't see my DM allowing this.

never know till you ask

[djreynolds]

I'm currently playing in a campaign as a Shadow sorcerer. I'm really enjoying my character in terms of personality/roleplaying. However, whenever it comes to combat, they're about as effective as a dead gerbil. Arguably less so as at least the other characters wouldn't have to worry about protecting a dead gerbil.

We're currently Lv3, and I've got the following spell list:

Chill Touch
Frostbite
Prestigitation
Minor Illusion

Shield
Chromatic Orb
Sleep

Maximilian's Earthen Grasp

(For the most part, I was aiming for a cold/shadow/necrotic theme.)

Anyway, it just seems like I just don't do anything meaningful in combat. My cantrips either do pitiful damage or nothing at all. Sleep gets maybe 1 weak enemy at most. Maximilian's Earthen Grasp has so far failed to do anything.

Have I just chosen bad spells? If so, what should I pick instead?

Otherwise, can anyone give me any advice on playing a (shadow) sorcerer and doing something meaningful with them in combat?

You need firebolt.

Until 5th level, pull out that bow or crossbow, because you get your dexterity bonus to damage.

What are your stats? Any elf with a high dexterity can use a bow very effectively.

Chill touch is good spell if you are using it to its fullest. Say versus undead beating on the fighter, now they are swinging away with disadvantage

Same with frostbite, will cause disadvantage as well... but on all enemy. So next time AFB, see if you can lose chill touch for another cantrip, as frostbite is very similar to chill touch

Now twinning chromatic orb is sweet, but 1 spell point for a 1st level spell and you could turn it up a notch by casting chromatic orb as second level spell and then twinning that for 2 sorcery points

Also you can quicken a cantrip or any spell that costs an action, turning it into a bonus action.... allowing you to shoot your bow as an action. But this costs 2 sorcery points.

An EK does this war magic and improved war magic

[bc56]

In my opinion, what you actually need is not better access to metamagic and different spells. I would recommend a completely different strategy: convert your sorcery points into spell slots.

Maximilian's earthen grasp is a good example why. The spell lets you attempt to do 2d6 damage and restrain every turn for 1 minute. Few fights last more than a minute in game, so you get the earthen grasp for a whole fight. With 2 second-level slots, you get earthen grasp for 2 fights. However, if you turn your 3 sorcery points into a second-level spell slot, you can do it for 3 whole fights instead. That's a lot of saves, and with a DC 14 save, most enemies should fail 30-60% of the time. Plus, if it hits, it does more damage than any cantrip.

If you are set on changing spells and don't want more saves, I would recommend switching Sleep for Mage Armour and learning Shadow Blade, because it gives you a 2d8 damage attack each turn for a minute, and has advantage if the target is in dim light or darkness.

In conclusion, metamagic is not as useful as spell slots at low levels, so you should spend sorcery points for more spells.

[Dr. Cliché]

In my opinion, what you actually need is not better access to metamagic and different spells. I would recommend a completely different strategy: convert your sorcery points into spell slots.

Maximilian's earthen grasp is a good example why. The spell lets you attempt to do 2d6 damage and restrain every turn for 1 minute. Few fights last more than a minute in game, so you get the earthen grasp for a whole fight. With 2 second-level slots, you get earthen grasp for 2 fights. However, if you turn your 3 sorcery points into a second-level spell slot, you can do it for 3 whole fights instead. That's a lot of saves, and with a DC 14 save, most enemies should fail 30-60% of the time. Plus, if it hits, it does more damage than any cantrip.

I'd have more faith in this strategy if Earthen Grasp hadn't failed dismally every single time I used it thus far. :smalltongue:

[Garresh]

Moonbeam is not on the Sorc's spell list.

Also, Spell Points really are fantastic, but also breaks a certain challenge that Sorcs were supposed to come with - namely, the inefficiencies of converting lower level slots to higher level slots.

Whoops. Somehow misread. Sorry about that. Hm. I need to find some good quicken examples then. The points about Twin still stand tho. Sorry. I usually run Twin/Subtle or Twin/Heighten depending on my builds. I only usually run Quicken for my Sorcadins. Anyone know some good sustained action spells off hand for Quicken?

[SharkForce]

Whoops. Somehow misread. Sorry about that. Hm. I need to find some good quicken examples then. The points about Twin still stand tho. Sorry. I usually run Twin/Subtle or Twin/Heighten depending on my builds. I only usually run Quicken for my Sorcadins. Anyone know some good sustained action spells off hand for Quicken?

sure. the new dragon breath spell.

problem is, right now he doesn't have enough SP to sustain use of quicken regardless.

so right now, the better use would be things like, say, quickening a spell and then dashing, disengaging, dodging, hiding, helping, using an object, and so forth in situations where it becomes necessary. or, alternately, in some cases using a cantrip that has its full value from the start instead of a damage cantriop (for example, it may be worth casting a light spell, or using mold earth to create some cover, in certain situations).

basically, sorcerer is just one of the easier classes to screw up, and one of the harder classes to correct mistakes you've made with it, and there is really not much about the class that ever bothers to explain it. it's got some definite design issues, most of which can be compensated for.... *if* you know what you're dealing with in advance. if you don't, and again, i must point out that there are no clear indications in the class that it is necessary, you can very easily be kinda like a wizard except crappier in most ways, which is pretty frustrating.

[Citan]

I'm currently playing in a campaign as a Shadow sorcerer. I'm really enjoying my character in terms of personality/roleplaying. However, whenever it comes to combat, they're about as effective as a dead gerbil. Arguably less so as at least the other characters wouldn't have to worry about protecting a dead gerbil.

We're currently Lv3, and I've got the following spell list:

Chill Touch
Frostbite
Prestigitation
Minor Illusion

Shield
Chromatic Orb
Sleep

Maximilian's Earthen Grasp

(For the most part, I was aiming for a cold/shadow/necrotic theme.)

Anyway, it just seems like I just don't do anything meaningful in combat. My cantrips either do pitiful damage or nothing at all. Sleep gets maybe 1 weak enemy at most. Maximilian's Earthen Grasp has so far failed to do anything.

Have I just chosen bad spells? If so, what should I pick instead?

Otherwise, can anyone give me any advice on playing a (shadow) sorcerer and doing something meaningful with them in combat?
Hi!

Soo... I read all thread until page 3 then dropped... ^^
But it seems you still didn't resolve your conundrum to enjoy your Sorcerer.

Basically, when you pick a Sorcerer you have two extremes to base upon:
- cookie cutter Sorcerer, who has a basically static (or nearly) selection of spells that allow him to be useful to any party in most situations: Shield, Web, Phantasmal Force, Enhance Ability, Fireball, Slow, Polymorph, etc...
- tailored Sorcerer: pick a thematic and a core role/tactic and build around, like the classic (and a bit boring ^^) Fire Draconic Sorcerer: Expeditious Retreat, Mirror Image, Burning Hands, Fireball, Wall of Fire with Empowered and either Quicken or Distant metamagics.

With a cursor that you can move in-between depending on how specific you want your character to be.

From what I see you have (had?) several problems.
1. Sleep: already explained by others, just swap it (I'd say "keep it" if you were otherwise enjoying the Sorcerer and going for an infiltration character: in combat it is really useless).
2. Nearly all your offensive spells target Constitution. Constitution is usually decent to high on monsters. On the contrary, mental states are usually weak until at least CR 5-6. Big, high heavy monsters tend to have great AC and STR saves but low DEX saves. Agile monsters tend to have low to medium AC.
So, my advice would be: trash your current selection if your DM will allow it or swap as you progress.
My suggestion for your spells and cantrips.

Cantrips:
You can keep Chill Touch: its really not that bad, actually pretty decent: necrotic is common, but not THAT common unless you are in a thematic campaign. Range is great so you can always try and hit something, and the rider is niche, but a great one, can really save your party when regen monsters are here. However, you could also swap it for Ray of Frost: lesser range, but soft control and less common resistance. In that case, swap Frostbite for Acid Splash: the only DEX-targeting save that is not completely opposite or "off" compared to your thematic.


Spells:
Mage Armor: only if you really have good DEX. Otherwise, just consider you are a mobile target and deal with it, and keep Shield instead.
Shield: can save your life. Period.
Ice Knife: as others said it's a great spell, both attack and DEX-save, with mini-AOE, plus it's totally in your thematic. And Careful-friendly.
Earth Tremor: if you don't go for Ice Knife, Earth Tremor is a good alternative: nothing on failed save, but target DEX and make creatures fall prone: plus it works great with Careful Metamagic.
Dragon's Breath: if you want a decent damage option, this is the best: but it requires to be nearly at melee range, so drop it unless you have great cover from party or great AC.
Enhance Ability: if you have regular checks in your campaign, or if you have someone that uses Shove/Grapple regularly but has no good way to get advantage on them, take this. At least you get a sure way to be useful outside (and maybe during) fights.
Shadow Blade: the other good option, great in fact for you in theory, since you get advantage on attack rolls... Except that it's concentration so it conflicts with Darkness.
Phantasmal Force: targets INT, meaning nearly sure-hit on most creatures at your level. If you really want to not fail a spell, this is the one you want. ;) It's single-target but really good.
Suggestion: DM-dependent: may be extremely great or underwhelming. Anyways, targets WIS which usually means great chance to succeed at that level.
Web: make people stick in place, great in many situations. Works great with Careful if your Dm doesn't care about tweets, decently otherwise (friendlies have to be adept at DEX saves, or you must be good at positioning to avoid catastrophic backfire ^^).

Soo, for your character, I'd go with Shield, Ice Knife , Enhance Ability, and Phantasmal Force (Suggestion instead if your DM rewards creativity) personally, because I think it's a pretty balanced composition, but anything goes really.

3. Costly Metamagics
At level 3, Twin is a real, big trap, as it is still at level 5 or 7 (even Heightened has better argumentation to be defended). It just costs too much.
And you picked it along with Quicken.
Quicken is fixed cost, so pain will go away as you progress. Note however that between Shadow Hound and some of the spells a Sorcerer can learn (even more since Xanathar's), you may have far enough things to cast/do with your bonus action to make Quicken much less relevant, at least for now.

Drop Twin, seriously, unless there is a buff you know can be useful on two people at once. You have much better options: I'd suggest Careful obviously, because it works the best with the spells I suggested.
But even Subtle can be great, after all, it means you can cast while hidden without losing the benefit. Especially if you plan on staying into Darkness. :)
Distant is the last I'd recommend, pushing effective range to far enough to keep you mostly beyond any threat, but it also means you are far away from your friends to use it, so if something happens to you for whatever reason, you're probably toast. Pick it only if you really see many situations in your experience in which it would have been decisively useful.
Heightened would be mostly redundant once you reach higher levels so it's a trap for you.
Empower is a nice metamagic but only once you get really "big group of dice" spells such as Fireball... Which is contrary to your thematic. :)

Personally, I'd pick Subtle simply because it makes both Enhance Ability and Suggestion golden in all non-combat situations (and even in some combat situations), by credibilizing the idea that what just happened was "natural".
And Careful because it makes much easier for you to use Ice Spike/Earth Tremor without worrying about hurting allies, and it will work equally great with whatever debuff you choose to pick later.

4. DARKNESS
You have one of the greatest tactical tools: USE IT!!!!
Seriously.
You may not have realized it yet, but it can be one of your "best damage" spell or your "best defense" spell. Sure, it's not direct damage, but pair it with your attack spells to get advantage. Move it over enemies and they get into catch-22: move and lose cover/risk OA/ get into a trap or be unable to target anyone beyond immediate vicinity.
Use it to protect your melee while they rush towards your enemies then move it onto enemy archers or casters.
Use it to provide a mobile "rear base" that friends can pop into/out from (they see nothing but they can still know how to make a proper 180, or you can tell them. Only a picky DM would make this counter-productive. Beware however, monsters could Ready actions for when people get out of the smoke).
Use it to cover a friend that is laying trap or preparing a big spell.

Remember, Darkness is mobile, in that it can be attached to an object: nothing prevents you to cast it on a stone and throw it/shoot it away as your free interaction, or make it flown by a friendly creature (like a familiar of someone else).

In summary...
- Change your spell list ASAP (since it's apparently legal in AL sessions to rebuild a low level character, your DM should really have no problem with you remaking your spell and metamagic selection).
- Don't try to deal damage, try to apply control: your friends will profit from it. The important thing is not that "you dealt damage" but that "you helped grow the total amount of damage".
- Use your strengths: you picked Shadow for a reason, use Darkness.
- BE PATIENT and DON'T MULTICLASS!
Especially into Warlock: those saying that are making you a nice, deadly trap!
Not only will you feel a big boost in power when level 5, whatever spells you choose. But one level after you will get another great boost by getting an animal imposing disadvantage on your save or suck spells: you will become one of the most useful party members, I can assure you that (well, as soon as you get how to properly use it anyways ^^).

[Dr. Cliché]

Basically, when you pick a Sorcerer you have two extremes to base upon:
- cookie cutter Sorcerer, who has a basically static (or nearly) selection of spells that allow him to be useful to any party in most situations: Shield, Web, Phantasmal Force, Enhance Ability, Fireball, Slow, Polymorph, etc...
- tailored Sorcerer: pick a thematic and a core role/tactic and build around, like the classic (and a bit boring ^^) Fire Draconic Sorcerer: Expeditious Retreat, Mirror Image, Burning Hands, Fireball, Wall of Fire with Empowered and either Quicken or Distant metamagics.

With a cursor that you can move in-between depending on how specific you want your character to be.


Well, as I said earlier, I think debuffs would be a good fit.



Cantrips:
You can keep Chill Touch: its really not that bad, actually pretty decent: necrotic is common, but not THAT common unless you are in a thematic campaign. Range is great so you can always try and hit something, and the rider is niche, but a great one, can really save your party when regen monsters are here. However, you could also swap it for Ray of Frost: lesser range, but soft control and less common resistance. In that case, swap Frostbite for Acid Splash: the only DEX-targeting save that is not completely opposite or "off" compared to your thematic.


If I keep Chill Touch, are there any other spells I could swap Frostbite for? I'm not a fan of Acid Splash in general, and it really doesn't fit the theme.



Spells:
Mage Armor: only if you really have good DEX. Otherwise, just consider you are a mobile target and deal with it, and keep Shield instead.
Shield: can save your life. Period.
Ice Knife: as others said it's a great spell, both attack and DEX-save, with mini-AOE, plus it's totally in your thematic. And Careful-friendly.
Earth Tremor: if you don't go for Ice Knife, Earth Tremor is a good alternative: nothing on failed save, but target DEX and make creatures fall prone: plus it works great with Careful Metamagic.
Dragon's Breath: if you want a decent damage option, this is the best: but it requires to be nearly at melee range, so drop it unless you have great cover from party or great AC.
Enhance Ability: if you have regular checks in your campaign, or if you have someone that uses Shove/Grapple regularly but has no good way to get advantage on them, take this. At least you get a sure way to be useful outside (and maybe during) fights.
Shadow Blade: the other good option, great in fact for you in theory, since you get advantage on attack rolls... Except that it's concentration so it conflicts with Darkness.

Soo, I'd go with Shield, Ice Knife, Earth Tremor, Enhance Ability personally.


Shield and Ice Knife are fine. However, Earth Tremor and Enhance Ability are really out of place for my character. I'd rather go with stuff more like Suggestion and/or Phantasmal Force. Or maybe a movement/escape spell like Misty Step.

Something I want to emphasise is that I really don't want buff spells like Enhance Ability if I can avoid them.



3. Costly Metamagics
At level 3, Twin is a real, big trap, as it is still at level 5 or 7 (even Heightened has better argumentation to be defended). It just costs too much.
And you picked it along with Quicken.
Quicken is fixed cost, so pain will go away as you progress.
Drop Twin, seriously, unless there is a buff you know can be useful on two people at once. You have much better options: I'd suggest Careful obviously, because it works the best with the spells I suggested.
But even Subtle can be great, after all, it means you can cast while hidden without losing the benefit. Especially if you plan on staying into Darkness. :)
Distant is the last I'd recommend, pushing effective range to far enough to keep you mostly beyond any threat, but it also means you are far away from your friends to use it, so if something happens to you for whatever reason, you're probably toast. Pick it only if you really see many situations in your experience in which it would have been decisively useful.
Heightened would be mostly redundant once you reach higher levels so it's a trap for you.
Empower is a nice metamagic but only once you get really "big group of dice" spells such as Fireball... Which is contrary to your thematic. :)

I'd like to swap Twinned Spell for Subtle Spell but, as far as I'm aware, sorcerers aren't allowed to change their metamagic once they've selected it. Am I missing something? :smalleek:



4. DARKNESS
You have one of the greatest tactical tools: USE IT!!!!
Seriously.
You may not have realized it yet, but it can be one of your "best damage" spell or your "best defense" spell. Sure, it's not direct damage, but pair it with your attack spells to get advantage. Move it over enemies and they get into catch-22: move and lose cover/risk OA/ get into a trap or be unable to target anyone beyond immediate vicinity.
Use it to protect your melee while they rush towards your enemies then move it onto enemy archers or casters.
Use it to provide a mobile "rear base" that friends can pop into/out from (they see nothing but they can still know how to make a proper 180, or you can tell them. Only a picky DM would make this counter-productive. Beware however, monsters could Ready actions for when people get out of the smoke).
Use it to cover a friend that is laying trap or preparing a big spell.

Remember, Darkness is mobile, in that it can be attached to an object: nothing prevents you to cast it on a stone and throw it/shoot it away as your free interaction, or make it flown by a friendly creature (like a familiar of someone else).

You talk about using Darkness to protect our melee guys, but surely it screws them over as much as our enemies - since they'll also be fighting blind?

I do like the idea of putting it on a familiar. If only sorcerers were still allowed to have them. :smallannoyed:



In summary...
- Change your spell list ASAP (since it's apparently legal in AL sessions to rebuild a low level character, your DM should really have no problem with you remaking your spell and metamagic selection).

I'm allowed to change my spells, but I'm not sure about metamagic. We're not playing AL, so I can't expect those rules to apply.



- Don't try to deal damage, try to apply control: your friends will profit from it. The important thing is not that "you dealt damage" but that "you helped grow the total amount of damage".

Fair enough. As above though, I'd much rather focus on debuffs or control than on buffing teammates. I know there are some good buffs (like the aforementioned Enhance Ability), but it's just not something I enjoy doing.



- Use your strengths: you picked Shadow for a reason, use Darkness.

Well, technically, I picked Shadow for the flavour and for the Shadow Wolf thing. :smallwink:

As above, my issue with Darkness is that it seems to screw the party over as much as it does our enemies. Let's say we're facing 3 guys and I cast Darkness to cover all of them. Okay . . . what next? Since no one else in my party can see in the darkness, they have to either fight blind (meaning they're as disadvantaged as the enemies inside it) or else just sit around twiddling their thumbs.

Could you elaborate a bit more on how I can use it to affect enemies without screwing over my party in the process?



- BE PATIENT and DON'T MULTICLASS!
Especially into Warlock: those saying that are making you a nice, deadly trap!
Not only will you feel a big boost in power when level 5, whatever spells you choose. But one level after you will get another great boost by getting an animal imposing disadvantage on your save or suck spells: you will become one of the most useful party members, I can assure you that (well, as soon as you get how to properly use it anyways ^^).

Fair enough. I look forward to one day reaching the promised levels. I really hope they're as good as everyone says they are.

[SharkForce]

darkness actually balances out in ordinary situations for your party (they can't see the target, but the target can't see them, so advantage and disadvantage cancel out), helps if your party would normally have disadvantage (any number of advantages vs any number of disadvantages cancels out, so if you're already at disadvantage it's improving you to normal, weirdly enough), and hurts if they have advantage (as noted above), unless they can move out of the darkness, use their advantage, and move back in.

so, for example, if you have a barbarian and are fighting enemies that cannot see in magical darkness, the barbarian could step out of the darkness, use reckless attack, and then move back in where the enemies will not be able to gain advantage to hit him. also handy if you're facing an enemy that inflicts status effects like restrained or blinded.

of course, that may rub your DM the wrong way, which in turn may trigger house rules to come into play.

it is also useful for breaking line of sight, which can range between extremely valuable to essentially meaningless, depending on your enemies. some things of interest that rely on sight:

- opportunity attacks
- the majority of all targeted spells that don't use attack rolls.
- many targeted monster or class abilities that don't use attack rolls.
- the ability to hide

you may also want to figure out how your DM rules darkness to work. most i've played with interpret it as a sphere of inky blackness that blocks vision from passing through, but some people have an interpretation where the darkness spell only obscures things inside it, allowing you to see things on the other side of the darkness from yourself normally. that has some very interesting implications for your party if that is how your DM rules it.

[Garresh]

I wholeheartedly and respectfully disagree on Twin being a trap. Twin is the only metamagic that scales with spell level. As such, it is the most costly metamagic LATE GAME. If you're twinning a 2nd level spell, it's the same price as quicken. If you twin a 1st level spell then you're getting a very good deal. Twinned Chromatic Orb for instance is an extremely cost effective attack. The choice as always comes down to where you want to spend your points. And really, ANY metamagic is costly at that level. Except Subtle or Empower, cause they're amazing.

[strangebloke]

I wholeheartedly and respectfully disagree on Twin being a trap. Twin is the only metamagic that scales with spell level. As such, it is the most costly metamagic LATE GAME. If you're twinning a 2nd level spell, it's the same price as quicken. If you twin a 1st level spell then you're getting a very good deal. Twinned Chromatic Orb for instance is an extremely cost effective attack. The choice as always comes down to where you want to spend your points. And really, ANY metamagic is costly at that level. Except Subtle or Empower, cause they're amazing.

Yes.

People are idiots with twin. It is best used to make low to mid level spells hit really hard. Twinned disintegrate does feel awesome, but you can get way more value out of three twinned phantasmal forces.

[LeonBH]

Twin is not a trap option. But it is expensive, and it is easy to use it incorrectly, making it effectively a trap option if you don't know what you're doing.

[LeonBH]

I'd like to swap Twinned Spell for Subtle Spell but, as far as I'm aware, sorcerers aren't allowed to change their metamagic once they've selected it. Am I missing something? :smalleek:

DM kindness is what you're missing. Give your DM a present or treat him to lunch. I got to swap metamagic abilties by just asking my DM.


As above, my issue with Darkness is that it seems to screw the party over as much as it does our enemies. Let's say we're facing 3 guys and I cast Darkness to cover all of them. Okay . . . what next? Since no one else in my party can see in the darkness, they have to either fight blind (meaning they're as disadvantaged as the enemies inside it) or else just sit around twiddling their thumbs.

Could you elaborate a bit more on how I can use it to affect enemies without screwing over my party in the process?

You cast it on yourself and cast ranged spells with advantage, meanwhile hits against you are with disadvantage. You are also immune to all effects that require sight.

[SharkForce]

Yes.

People are idiots with twin. It is best used to make low to mid level spells hit really hard. Twinned disintegrate does feel awesome, but you can get way more value out of three twinned phantasmal forces.

that depends a great deal on the situation. twinned disintegrate has its place too, and while i certainly wouldn't use it on random mooks, if you're facing a pair of drow mages (or a drow mage and a drow priestess of lloth, or two priestesses, or whatever - drow simply happen to be a reasonable example because i know they have some glass cannons) as mooks for a big boss somewhere, i would say that blasting them both into nonexistence in the first round is a reasonably solid idea. if they were supporting a drow archmage, you just went from a double deadly encounter down to a medium encounter in a single action (assuming they both failed their save, which is around 50% at level 11 typically unless you already sent your hound to say hello to one or both).

that sounds like a pretty reasonable gamble to me.

[ProseBeforeHos]

I have a couple of questions:
1) Is there a winner between Phantasmal Force and Suggestion, or should I aim to have both?
2) Regarding Phantasmal Force, do you have any suggestions (hah!) for illusions that should keep enemies occupied?

1) Both are very good. I think PF is overall better since it can effect enemies that can't speak your language. I wouldn't aim to have both, as a sorc your spell selection is very limited so you want spells that can be useful in a variety of situations, not to stock up on similar effects.

2) Illusory chains or vines (or tentacles, or whatever) that grapple and restrain the enemy and wrap around their mouth (inhibiting verbal spellcasting).

[SharkForce]

1) Both are very good. I think PF is overall better since it can effect enemies that can't speak your language. I wouldn't aim to have both, as a sorc your spell selection is very limited so you want spells that can be useful in a variety of situations, not to stock up on similar effects.

2) Illusory chains or vines (or tentacles, or whatever) that grapple and restrain the enemy and wrap around their mouth (inhibiting verbal spellcasting).

on 2, there is a dev tweet explicitly stating that phantasmal force cannot inflict negative effects beyond what the spell explicitly says it can.

or, in other words, they will justify that they wriggled out of the chains or cleared the gag from their mouth, not that they cannot move or speak.

which is why i went from really quite liking phantasmal force in the right circumstances, to basically putting it on the "never choose" list.

[ProseBeforeHos]

on 2, there is a dev tweet explicitly stating that phantasmal force cannot inflict negative effects beyond what the spell explicitly says it can.

or, in other words, they will justify that they wriggled out of the chains or cleared the gag from their mouth, not that they cannot move or speak.

which is why i went from really quite liking phantasmal force in the right circumstances, to basically putting it on the "never choose" list.

You got a link to that?

[Citan]

I wholeheartedly and respectfully disagree on Twin being a trap. Twin is the only metamagic that scales with spell level. As such, it is the most costly metamagic LATE GAME. If you're twinning a 2nd level spell, it's the same price as quicken. If you twin a 1st level spell then you're getting a very good deal. Twinned Chromatic Orb for instance is an extremely cost effective attack. The choice as always comes down to where you want to spend your points. And really, ANY metamagic is costly at that level. Except Subtle or Empower, cause they're amazing.
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
But you know, you can learn another metamagic at 10th level. THAT is when it's useful.
That or if you want to specialize on twinning a particular debuff such as Haste or Polymorph because you have two people in your party who like it.

Otherwise, it's usually too costly for its worth until level 7-8, especially for archetypes that have other uses for Sorcery points like Shadow (Darkness with automatic vision through it) and Wild Magic (Bend Luck).

And I was speaking here in the context of OP: he wants to debuff, so Twin is a trap. Not only is it much better to ensure one creature is effectively affected by a spell (Heightened), but several of Sorcerer spells allow multitarget when upcast like Hold Person or Blindness, so you can do without it.

Yes.

People are idiots with twin. It is best used to make low to mid level spells hit really hard. Twinned disintegrate does feel awesome, but you can get way more value out of three twinned phantasmal forces.
Confer above and under, learn to read within context, and learn politeness while you are at it, you will grow yourself. :)


Well, as I said earlier, I think debuffs would be a good fit.

If I keep Chill Touch, are there any other spells I could swap Frostbite for? I'm not a fan of Acid Splash in general, and it really doesn't fit the theme.

That's the problem, there are none that fit your theme and targeting DEX or WIS as far as I remember...
I think you'll have to compromise here, unless you make your DM agree to shoehorn a cantrip from another list as a homebrew (Toll the Dead is indeed your best option), take Magic Initiate (same), or have DM agree to both integrate and refluff Sacred Flame as UnHoly Flame in your homebrew. :/



Shield and Ice Knife are fine. However, Earth Tremor and Enhance Ability are really out of place for my character. I'd rather go with stuff more like Suggestion and/or Phantasmal Force. Or maybe a movement/escape spell like Misty Step.

Something I want to emphasise is that I really don't want buff spells like Enhance Ability if I can avoid them.

No problem mate, it's your character, my suggestions are just suggestions. So indeed take Suggestion and Misty Step, or Hold Person which I forgot but is also great (and targets WIS). :=)



I'd like to swap Twinned Spell for Subtle Spell but, as far as I'm aware, sorcerers aren't allowed to change their metamagic once they've selected it. Am I missing something? :smalleek:

Talk to your DM if you didn't already, explaining how current situation is extremely boring and frustrating for you, and annoying for others. IF he doesn't allow metamagic swap, then I daresay he's acting like an ass and forgetting primary goal of DM: "everybody have fun".



You talk about using Darkness to protect our melee guys, but surely it screws them over as much as our enemies - since they'll also be fighting blind?
I do like the idea of putting it on a familiar. If only sorcerers were still allowed to have them. :smallannoyed:

Yeah, you are totally right: if you just drop Darkness where your friends fight in melee, they will just scream at you for messing with them. XD
What I suggested to do was the case when they have to run for several dozen feets before reaching objective, where you can accompany and lead them while protecting everyone by holding a Darkness-stone.
Or a case where you have several angles to cover, you can use Darkness to bother attackers from one side while you focus on the other.
Or a case where you have archers in a tower raining hell down on you, putting them in Darkness will effectively bind them (stay there and be useless, go down and get sniped by a friendly).

Basically, it's like a dual-bladed weapon: you can harm your party when used improperly, and it does require big wits and quick judgement. But once you learn how to handle it, it will be your best spell, at least until you start getting more serious ones (Hypnotic Pattern, Polymorph, etc).

If you like the idea of a familiar but nobody in your party can take it, then it could make a case for Magic Initiate: Wizard (if your DM agrees cantrip reselect, pick only offensive ones as caster, take utility one with Wizard) or Ritual Caster (requires your DM to work with you to get extra spells, otherwise it's a trap in the long run).



I'm allowed to change my spells, but I'm not sure about metamagic. We're not playing AL, so I can't expect those rules to apply.

In my view, AL is the strict "basic" management rules any DM should follow, in other words, they just have rules to make experience consistent whatever group you play with.
You are in a home game, so there is really no good reason for your DM to refuse a respec that would change absolutely nothing in game balance, allow you to finally enjoy your character (after all, you did go out of your comfort zone, that should be encouraged) and make your friends rely on you rather than mock you.

Seriously, one couldn't begrudge a DM for not noticing his frustration (DM is supposed to, but there are many legitimate reasons that could explain his failure at that), so if you didn't push the subject to him, it's your own fault. But once you (will?) have explained, there is, again, no valid reason to refuse (while he could perfectly refuse a cantrip refluff for example: it's ridiculous, but homebrew is DM's lair in the first place so...).




Well, technically, I picked Shadow for the flavour and for the Shadow Wolf thing. :smallwink:

As above, my issue with Darkness is that it seems to screw the party over as much as it does our enemies. Let's say we're facing 3 guys and I cast Darkness to cover all of them. Okay . . . what next? Since no one else in my party can see in the darkness, they have to either fight blind (meaning they're as disadvantaged as the enemies inside it) or else just sit around twiddling their thumbs.

Could you elaborate a bit more on how I can use it to affect enemies without screwing over my party in the process?

I tried to give an illustration above: basically you have to take into your own hands the redefinition of Darkness position whenever it's useful, with the objective of giving cover to allies without hampering their melee attacks.
So in the example above, indeed just casting Darkness over everyone would be a bad idea. ^^
If your encounters generally include only melee enemies, then indeed it will be hard to get a good use for Darkness besides just hiding yourself... Or injured allies (you have someone downed, nobody can stabilize/heal him until enemies get half a dozen shots at him? Either bet on him surviving until an ally takes care of him, or put him under Darkness -as stupid as it seems, since downed=not moving so technically any decent archer would still hit him, unless I'm mistaken by RAW now he has disadvantage-).

Besides that, what you can effectively do depends on your party: with a Thief Rogue, you could help him lay traps while enemies don't see him then lure them on its. With a Wizard or Bard, you could hide and protect him while he prepares a Leomund's Tiny Hut. Etc etc...



Fair enough. I look forward to one day reaching the promised levels. I really hope they're as good as everyone says they are.
Honestly I congrats you on being patient thus far with the character because it must indeed be hard. :) But I have faith in your DM being a normal, understanding human and letting you respec metamagic, cantrips and spells.

[SharkForce]

You got a link to that?

well, here's chris perkins (not the official rules guy):

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/30/would-you-allow-phantasmal-force-to-cause-status-effects/

and here's jeremy crawford (is the official rules guy):

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/05/30/can-a-creature-under-the-effects-of-phantasmal-force-be-restrained-by-it/comment-page-1/

(note that the second part of crawford's tweet amounts to permission for a DM to run their own game. no kidding).

[Raif]

- BE PATIENT and DON'T MULTICLASS!
Especially into Warlock: those saying that are making you a nice, deadly trap!
Not only will you feel a big boost in power when level 5, whatever spells you choose. But one level after you will get another great boost by getting an animal imposing disadvantage on your save or suck spells: you will become one of the most useful party members, I can assure you that (well, as soon as you get how to properly use it anyways ^^).

Absolutely disagree - warlock multiclass is not a trap option at all whatsoever. It gives you the best ranged cantrip DPR option you can possibly have and if you go hexblade great AC and frees up a spell choice (shield from the hexblade list).

I absolutely loved taking the warlock multiclass at level 5 (5 sorcerer 2 warlock) on my phoenix sorcerer and it made me feel way more powerful and flexible. Did it delay later spells or features? Yep. Was it worth it? Definitely in my opinion. I would advise taking it at later levels though, definitely after level 5. You want level 5 ASAP as it is indeed a huge boost.

However, if it doesn't fit your RP then don't take it.

For the OP, as you answered my question:



Thinking about it, I think Debuffer and Controller would be the best fit for my character. Not sure which I'd want as my primary role - it might depend on their respective spell lists.

Regarding my theme, Necrotic/vampire-y would be more accurate. I only went with ice because necrotic seemed rather underrepresented on the sorcerer spell list.

I would start with changing your spell list to represent that. With controller/debuffer you want Hold Person, Web, Suggestion, Phantasmal Force, Hypnotic Pattern (when you get there), Thunderwave (for the push). These are the types of spells you want, and you can definitely stick with Ray of Frost, Chill Touch, and Frostbite. You're not there to damage, just to add as many riders and debuffs as possible. Ray of Frost and Chill Touch are d8's versus Fire Bolts D10 so the damage isn't a big difference but those debuffs can really help.

Hold person with twin, if your campaign has a lot of humanoids, is huge as a controlller/debuffer. It can really turn the tide and gives you that amazing feeling of useful.

I hate to say it, since it's been repeated, but Sorcerer really starts to shine the higher level you go. Post level 5 it really takes off as you have more Sorcery points to play around with and a good amount of spell slots so you can feel comfy sacrificing them. Also, pre-level 5, if you're not using something like Chromatic Orb to do damage then you're better off using a crossbow. Since you're not going after damage, then don't bother with it at all and just use your cantrips for the riders and care not about the damage.

Keep in mind: large creatures normally have decent strength and constitution. Smaller ones would have better dex and probably not great strength/constitution.

I'd ask your GM if you can use the Spell Point variant rules and roll your Sorcery points into the spell point pool for your game as that will help a lot too. I wish that was standard for sorcerers.

[Citan]

Absolutely disagree - warlock multiclass is not a trap option at all whatsoever. It gives you the best ranged cantrip DPR option you can possibly have and if you go hexblade great AC and frees up a spell choice (shield from the hexblade list).

I absolutely loved taking the warlock multiclass at level 5 (5 sorcerer 2 warlock) on my phoenix sorcerer and it made me feel way more powerful and flexible. Did it delay later spells or features? Yep. Was it worth it? Definitely in my opinion. I would advise taking it at later levels though, definitely after level 5. You want level 5 ASAP as it is indeed a huge boost.

Yes, sorry, it's definitely a trap, FOR OP.
He took Shadow for the Hound, he wants to be a debuffer.
- Armor is not a problem in his experience, so there goes the armor proficiency.
- Shield can also be learned on next level of Sorcerer, or with Magic Initiate: Sorcerer at worst. Plus confer OP experience, not much a problem surviving so far.
- Eldricht Blast is basically the same as any other cantrip until you get level 5, or pick Agonizing Blast (which means another level in dip). It's only the best ranged cantrip option (aka worth dipping just for it) only after level 11. Otherwise, just Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper is largely enough.

Dipping is the worst idea there is for someone that wants to play with great debuffs and hound imposing disadvantage.
Especially two levels dip: instead of getting Slow / Hypnotic Pattern at level 5 (6,500 XP) and Shadow Hound at 6 (14000 XP), he would get them at respectively 23000 and 34000 XP.
How many more sessions of play does that represent? I'll let each one here make his own calculation based on self experience. ;)

[LeonBH]

Of course Phantasmal Force cannot inflict status conditions beyond what the spell says it can. It can't make an illusion other than a bridge by RAW, and all other illusory phenomenon are up to the DM to allow or not (as with all illusion spells).

But if the illusion blocks line of sight, or is too noisy to drown out other sounds, then the targets are effectively blind or deaf, even if they don't have the status condition (the same way you can't see someone standing behind a wall even if you're not blind or they're not invisible, or can't hear someone talking in a concert).

[SharkForce]

Of course Phantasmal Force cannot inflict status conditions beyond what the spell says it can. It can't make an illusion other than a bridge by RAW, and all other illusory phenomenon are up to the DM to allow or not (as with all illusion spells).

But if the illusion blocks line of sight, or is too noisy to drown out other sounds, then the targets are effectively blind or deaf, even if they don't have the status condition (the same way you can't see someone standing behind a wall even if you're not blind or they're not invisible, or can't hear someone talking in a concert).

the suggestion was using it to restrain a person or keep them from speaking.

and no, there is a rather large difference between deafness and being surrounded by things that make loud noises (for one thing, you can just walk away from the things making loud noises, and for another, you could still hear other noises even in a loud environment, it would just be harder).

likewise, there is a rather large difference between blindness and something being in the way. you can, much like with the loud noises, simply move away. you can potentially see around it, or in all directions except for the one where the object is.

and in any event, it certainly cannot do what was suggested when i said it couldn't do those things. it could still have uses; you could make a phantasmal force image of a solid wall around your own party, and that one enemy would not be able to see them until it makes a successful int check for example (though it would know more or less where they are unless they use an action to hide). but it isn't going to leave anyone hogtied and gagged and helpless.

[Citan]

the suggestion was using it to restrain a person or keep them from speaking.

and no, there is a rather large difference between deafness and being surrounded by things that make loud noises (for one thing, you can just walk away from the things making loud noises, and for another, you could still hear other noises even in a loud environment, it would just be harder).

likewise, there is a rather large difference between blindness and something being in the way. you can, much like with the loud noises, simply move away. you can potentially see around it, or in all directions except for the one where the object is.

and in any event, it certainly cannot do what was suggested when i said it couldn't do those things. it could still have uses; you could make a phantasmal force image of a solid wall around your own party, and that one enemy would not be able to see them until it makes a successful int check for example (though it would know more or less where they are unless they use an action to hide). but it isn't going to leave anyone hogtied and gagged and helpless.
Phantasmal Force is supposed to be "no larger than a 10-foot cube": do you mean that all party should fit inside the cube, or do you consider that you could "flatten" the total volume to allow thinner shapes but in "larger" dimensions (not sure if I'm clear on that question)? If the latter, would it be RAW or houserule (imo it would be houserule but re-reading it's not crystal in the spell description)?

[LeonBH]

The target can walk away from a loud sound or wall, unless Phantasmal Force makes it a mobile dome of ever-banging gongs centered on the target, or an opaque boiling gelatinous substance stuck around the target's entire head, in which case it is impossible to leave the area since it moves with them.

And no, it cannot actually bind or gag anyone. It can leave them entirely helpless though by robbing them of their senses.


Phantasmal Force is supposed to be "no larger than a 10-foot cube": do you mean that all party should fit inside the cube, or do you consider that you could "flatten" the total volume to allow thinner shapes but in "larger" dimensions (not sure if I'm clear on that question)? If the latter, would it be RAW or houserule (imo it would be houserule but re-reading it's not crystal in the spell description)?

PHB 204: "You select a cube's point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect. The cube's size is expressed as the length of each side"

Which means a 10ft cube is a cube with 10ft on each side. You can't flatten it to keep the same volume.

[Raif]

Yes, sorry, it's definitely a trap, FOR OP.
He took Shadow for the Hound, he wants to be a debuffer.
- Armor is not a problem in his experience, so there goes the armor proficiency.
- Shield can also be learned on next level of Sorcerer, or with Magic Initiate: Sorcerer at worst. Plus confer OP experience, not much a problem surviving so far.
- Eldricht Blast is basically the same as any other cantrip until you get level 5, or pick Agonizing Blast (which means another level in dip). It's only the best ranged cantrip option (aka worth dipping just for it) only after level 11. Otherwise, just Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper is largely enough.

Dipping is the worst idea there is for someone that wants to play with great debuffs and hound imposing disadvantage.
Especially two levels dip: instead of getting Slow / Hypnotic Pattern at level 5 (6,500 XP) and Shadow Hound at 6 (14000 XP), he would get them at respectively 23000 and 34000 XP.
How many more sessions of play does that represent? I'll let each one here make his own calculation based on self experience. ;)

Quoting myself here:


I would advise taking it at later levels though, definitely after level 5. You want level 5 ASAP as it is indeed a huge boost.

Since I missed that he was a shadow I would definitely edit my stance and say level 6, not level 5.

[Dr. Cliché]

Regarding Phantasmal Force, could I make an enemy think they were trapped inside a cupboard* with teeth? And it's biting them.

And, if so, does that mean they're effectively blind to everything outside the illusionary cupboard? Or can they still see past it somehow? Or am I just not allowed to put them inside it in the first place?


*Don't ask 'why a cupboard' - my character is a bit weird. :smallwink:

[LeonBH]

Putting them in a cupboard with teeth isn't banned since it's a visual phenomenon. And they will effectively be blind to everything outside the cupboard since it will block line of sight. Effectively, everything is behind total cover for them.

But as soon as they move (which is still legal, Phantasmal Force does not set their movement speed to 0), if the illusory cupboard does not move with them, they will step outside the illusion and they won't be blind anymore. They could rationalize it as the cupboard crumbling to dust or something like that.

Even if they think they're trapped, they aren't banned from interacting with the walls of the cupboard (the first thing you would do upon finding you're boxed in is bang on the walls, isn't it?) and as soon as they interact with the walls, they'll find that there are no walls to touch and no surface to bang on. They could rationalize that as the walls breaking off so easily, like it was made of paper. And that would let them step outside the area of Phantasmal Force, assuming it doesn't move with them.

[Dr. Cliché]

Putting them in a cupboard with teeth isn't banned since it's a visual phenomenon. And they will effectively be blind to everything outside the cupboard since it will block line of sight. Effectively, everything is behind total cover for them.

But as soon as they move (which is still legal, Phantasmal Force does not set their movement speed to 0), if the illusory cupboard does not move with them, they will step outside the illusion and they won't be blind anymore. They could rationalize it as the cupboard crumbling to dust or something like that.

Even if they think they're trapped, they aren't banned from interacting with the walls of the cupboard (the first thing you would do upon finding you're boxed in is bang on the walls, isn't it?) and as soon as they interact with the walls, they'll find that there are no walls to touch and no surface to bang on. They could rationalize that as the walls breaking off so easily, like it was made of paper. And that would let them step outside the area of Phantasmal Force, assuming it doesn't move with them.

I have to be honest - this spell still seems garbage to me.

[LeonBH]

Being honest right back, Phantasmal Force is the strongest 2nd level spell there is. If you can't use it to its fullest extent, that speaks to a lack of imagination.

[Strangways]

I have to be honest - this spell still seems garbage to me.

Phantasmal Force does include the sensation of touch. That’s what distinguishes it from the Illusion/Image spells. The latter are visible to everyone, but are purely visual, like a hologram, whereas the former includes all senses, but can be perceived only by the target. At least, that’s how I read the spell description, which states:

“The phantasm includes sound, temperature, and other stimuli, also evident only to the creature.“ I note the description also states that if the target falls into a chasm, despite an illusory bridge created by PF, he rationalizes that by thinking he slipped off the bridge, i.e. he believes he physically interacted with the bridge. This is the reverse of the Illusion/Image spells, which state that interaction with the illusion reveals it to be an illusion. So I would not agree that the target could simply step outside the cupboard and instantly realize it’s an illusion the way that he would if it were a cupboard created by Silent Image. I will say, more generally, that the illusion spells in general are subject to such wide variations of interpretation among DMs, they can be anything from very powerful to totally useless. That’s why I generally don’t bother using illusion spells at all unless I’ve had a discussion with the DM in advance about how he handles them.

[Dr. Cliché]

Being honest right back, Phantasmal Force is the strongest 2nd level spell there is. If you can't use it to its fullest extent, that speaks to a lack of imagination.

I'm so glad to see that 'LOL, L2P, SCRUB.' comments exist in D&D forums. I'd hate to think that I'd be able to make a post without the response being a healthy dose of condescension.


Phantasmal Force does include the sensation of touch. That’s what distinguishes it from the Illusion/Image spells. The latter are visible to everyone, but are purely visual, like a hologram, whereas the former includes all senses, but can be perceived only by the target. At least, that’s how I read the spell description, which states:

“The phantasm includes sound, temperature, and other stimuli, also evident only to the creature.“ I note the description also states that if the target falls into a chasm, despite an illusory bridge created by PF, he rationalizes that by thinking he slipped off the bridge, i.e. he believes he physically interacted with the bridge. This is the reverse of the Illusion/Image spells, which state that interaction with the illusion reveals it to be an illusion. So I would not agree that the target could simply step outside the cupboard and instantly realize it’s an illusion the way that he would if it were a cupboard created by Silent Image. I will say, more generally, that the illusion spells in general are subject to such wide variations of interpretation among DMs, they can be anything from very powerful to totally useless. That’s why I generally don’t bother using illusion spells at all unless I’ve had a discussion with the DM in advance about how he handles them.

But even if he doesn't realise it's an illusion, surely the fact that he can just sweep it aside regardless completely de-fangs the spell?

[Raif]

I'm so glad to see that 'LOL, L2P, SCRUB.' comments exist in D&D forums. I'd hate to think that I'd be able to make a post without the response being a healthy dose of condescension.



But even if he doesn't realise it's an illusion, surely the fact that he can just sweep it aside regardless completely de-fangs the spell?

That's the thing about the spells and DM/game fiat, if in real life you see a fire, you're not going to put your hand in it. It's fire, you know better.

Same thing in game, if you use phantasmal force by logic it should react to the fire/chasm/spikes as if they were real. You wouldn't touch venomous spikes in real life, so why should the target of the spell.

However this is all dependent on the DM/game following logical rules.

[LeonBH]

This is the reverse of the Illusion/Image spells, which state that interaction with the illusion reveals it to be an illusion. So I would not agree that the target could simply step outside the cupboard and instantly realize it’s an illusion the way that he would if it were a cupboard created by Silent Image.

They wouldn't realize the illusion is an illusion. They would just be walking away from it.

Take the example of the bridge. They can believe it to be real, but they will still fall off it if they tried to cross. Similarly, if someone was trapped in an illusory cabinet and the floor gave way (due to a trap door, for example), they would still fall through the floor of the cabinet, because it's not a real floor.

And just like the cabinet's floor, the cabinet's walls are not real walls. They would perceive themselves interacting with the walls if they touched it, but the walls cannot stop their movement because they aren't real.


I will say, more generally, that the illusion spells in general are subject to such wide variations of interpretation among DMs, they can be anything from very powerful to totally useless. That’s why I generally don’t bother using illusion spells at all unless I’ve had a discussion with the DM in advance about how he handles them.

This is good advice. But it's also possible to use illusion spells cleverly without having to consult with the DM, as long as you can convince the DM that your illusion makes sense.


I'm so glad to see that 'LOL, L2P, SCRUB.' comments exist in D&D forums. I'd hate to think that I'd be able to make a post without the response being a healthy dose of condescension.

You made an honest comment that the spell was garbage without further stating why (were you just expecting people to agree and end the conversation?). I suppose I could have just ignored you, but I chose instead to honestly tell you that you weren't thinking imaginatively enough.

[ProseBeforeHos]

well, here's chris perkins (not the official rules guy):

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/30/would-you-allow-phantasmal-force-to-cause-status-effects/

and here's jeremy crawford (is the official rules guy):

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/05/30/can-a-creature-under-the-effects-of-phantasmal-force-be-restrained-by-it/comment-page-1/

(note that the second part of crawford's tweet amounts to permission for a DM to run their own game. no kidding).

These two answers are pretty contradictory. CP says "no" JC says "DM dependent".

If the phantasm is 'Thorny vines that rise up out of the floor and grab you' and the text says; "While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real. The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm." It's really hard to see how the restrained condition wouldn't apply here.

[Dr. Cliché]

These two answers are pretty contradictory. CP says "no" JC says "DM dependent".

If the phantasm is 'Thorny vines that rise up out of the floor and grab you' and the text says; "While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real. The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm." It's really hard to see how the restrained condition wouldn't apply here.

Except that, going by what LeonBH said, the target could just move his arms freely and rationalise it as the vines breaking effortlessly.

[Talamare]

These two answers are pretty contradictory. CP says "no" JC says "DM dependent".

If the phantasm is 'Thorny vines that rise up out of the floor and grab you' and the text says; "While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real. The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm." It's really hard to see how the restrained condition wouldn't apply here.

Perkins says No
JC says No, but you're the DM; do what you want.

Edit
In MY OPINION Phantasmal Force is...

UNRELIABLE

It might be a GOD TIER spell, that dominates because the DM massively plays along, and the enemies are incredibly 'vulnerable' to a certain illusion you might craft. Sunshines and Rainbows and all that is good.
OR
It's trash, because you can't think of something clever without it basically being ignorable... or even if you do, the enemies were too stoic for it, or didn't care about what you did, or the DM didn't play along... or you know they succeeded the Save, since that's also an option...

So maybe like a dozen ways to fail, and maybe 1 golden situation where it's OP. (When the DM REALLY plays along with it... repeatedly... and never gets annoyed from it...)

Because of that... I don't think it's a good spell.

[strangebloke]

Yeah, I totally agree with that.
But you know, you can learn another metamagic at 10th level. THAT is when it's useful.
That or if you want to specialize on twinning a particular debuff such as Haste or Polymorph because you have two people in your party who like it.

Otherwise, it's usually too costly for its worth until level 7-8, especially for archetypes that have other uses for Sorcery points like Shadow (Darkness with automatic vision through it) and Wild Magic (Bend Luck).

And I was speaking here in the context of OP: he wants to debuff, so Twin is a trap. Not only is it much better to ensure one creature is effectively affected by a spell (Heightened), but several of Sorcerer spells allow multitarget when upcast like Hold Person or Blindness, so you can do without it.

Confer above and under, learn to read within context, and learn politeness while you are at it, you will grow yourself. :)

At his current level Twin is basically the most efficient metamagic available. It doubles the power of a first level spell for 1 sorcery point. That effectively doubles the power of all of his first level spells. If he is feeling that his resources do too little when expended, it is exactly what he needs.

Heighten, for comparison, is three times as expensive, and he'll be getting his own version of heighten in the form of the shadow doggy. I'd also maintain that Twin is generally better than heighten for low-level spells even if you don't want to buff, since it can be applied to attack spells as well as save spells, and has the bonus that if two people fail their saves, you get two people immobilized.

Hold person etc. are great for sorcerers in general because they scale well, but at his current level they synergize with Twin. At later levels they won't, but that's fine because, as you pointed out, he'll have other synergies.

Also, how I was being impolite? Is 'idiot' a bad word now?


don't get warlock
As regards his current problem, you're totally right. Multiclassing with Warlock after five is viable, but 'after five' is not his problem.


I have to be honest - this spell still seems garbage to me.


Being honest right back, Phantasmal Force is the strongest 2nd level spell there is. If you can't use it to its fullest extent, that speaks to a lack of imagination.
That's a little unfair, Leon. It's also heavily DM-dependent.

PF is not a spell that you should take without figuring out how you DM will rule it. Ask him straight up, "How does this spell work?" and write down what he says.

There's nothing in the text (as with major image) that allows you to move or alter the illusion. But does the illusory item appear to act as expected? Can the illusion move with the thing you target? If I put a steel box on top of the creature's head, and he walks, does the box move with him or just sit, floating in the air? The text is unclear. My 'steel sphere filled with acid' idea requires this acknowledgement from the DM to work.

I allow the illusion to track with the target in my games, since the thing only exists in the target's head to begin with, and because I like spells that use creativity.

By the absolute most dickish reading of RAW, you can still do the following nasty tricks:
1. Make him halllucinate that a famous wizard has teleported in and is powering up a massive spell that will kill everyone. (remember, he will rationalize his inability to hurt the wizard, as well as the wizard's presence)
2. put him in an iron maiden covered in razor-sharp blades. The blades will hurt him, so unless he's a psycho it doesn't make sense for him to try and bang on the walls. He won't take damage if he doesn't bang on the walls, though.
3. Make him think that a door is open when it is in fact closed, make an illusory bridge, etc.

In short, if your DM is restrictive about this sort of thing, it's situational, but not really garbage. In that situation Suggestion is better.

[GorogIrongut]

I don't want to get too entrenched in this discussion, even though I love sorcerors, but I would like to make one comment:

You already know you need to swap spells around. Pick the spells that will be the most mechanically effective and THEN fluff them to fit your themes/roleplaying. I've yet to meet a DM who wouldn't count Enhance Ability as you unleashing a bunch of gremlins to help your party members as they fight. The same goes for Earth Tremor. Instead of just shaking the earth, have it open a mini door to the Underworld with otherworldly lichens and sub zero temperatures causing the actual effects of the spell.

The effects of the spells will remain the same but the spells will feel more in line with how you view your character. I've even found that most DM's are willing to tweak damage types to fit in with a character type, as long as you don't take the piss and try to metagame too much.


EvilAnagram's guide is an excellent one. The only one I find better is TheUser's guide to Sorcerors. It focuses almost exclusively on spells and metamagic. You might disagree with some of his rankings... but he's quite open about the probabilities of each metamagic and how they interact with spells available at that level and later on.

He starts off by talking about choosing what type of sorceror you're going to be, because you only have so many metamagic. He lists them as:
Blasters (self evident what they do)
Supports or Controllers (again self evident. These become your party's best friend)
Sociopaths are the most interesting heading he provides. These use magic to manipulate NPC's (or players) to get information and sculpt events in their favour.
I personally find that this last class of sorceror is the most overlooked and the most powerful. The OP has already eschewed going down this route by NOT selecting Subtle Metamagic. This is also the thing I would try and get your DM to change as it is arguably the strongest and cheapest metamagic out there. Drop quicken, keep Twin and get Subtle.

Because of your metamagic limitations, you should only focus on one of these headings... Though really it's closer to 1.5. I've played plenty of Sociopaths who were pretty good blasters. Or Supporters who were also pretty good Sociopaths.

Just remember, whatever you choose, you will be better at it than any other full caster in the game because of your access to Metamagic. All of your metamagics should be chosen around your Sorceror Subtype. All spells should be chosen around your subtype with an eye to also being tolerably good in one of the other Subtypes.


Just remember that because something is hard/difficult doesn't mean that it is bad. Once you understand the complicated inner workings of the Sorceror class, I've found they make the rest of the other classes boring.

[Talamare]

At his current level Twin is basically the most efficient metamagic available. It doubles the power of a first level spell for 1 sorcery point. That effectively doubles the power of all of his first level spells. If he is feeling that his resources do too little when expended, it is exactly what he needs.

Twin is ... Tricky

Now, for any Single Target Buffs. That tends to be pretty clear.
For a few insanely powerful buffs (Haste), I honestly feels it has an effect of even greater than double (altho yea yea it's technically double)

For Damage Spells... It's where it gets blurry

Yes, if you Twin a single target nuke to hit 2 Targets. You have doubled the effect of your Single Target Nuke...
but if you had an AoE/Multi Target Nuke already that did slightly less that you could have used instead then... you didn't really double your potential effectiveness...

Chromatic Orb deals 3d8 Single Target
Burning Hands deal 3d6 AoE

If you Twin Chromatic Orb to hit 2 people, and Burning Hands was already hitting 2 people. You have increased your effectiveness by about 20-30%, not double.
It gets worse if Burning Hands would have been able to hit 3 people, since then your effectiveness would even be reduced...
(Inherently Fallacy, Assuming Burning Hands could hit 2 when Chromatic Orb has better Range and Targetting)

[strangebloke]

(Inherently Fallacy, Assuming Burning Hands could hit 2 when Chromatic Orb has better Range and Targetting)

You raise some good points; I shouldn't have said 'double effectiveness.' My point was that at this level it can be very cheap and effective.

EDIT:

You already know you need to swap spells around. Pick the spells that will be the most mechanically effective and THEN fluff them to fit your themes/roleplaying.
This is very good advice.

That said, Buffing is also a playstyle that I would generally argue 'feels' off-theme for a vampirey sort of sorcerer.

[LeonBH]

That's a little unfair, Leon. It's also heavily DM-dependent.

PF is not a spell that you should take without figuring out how you DM will rule it. Ask him straight up, "How does this spell work?" and write down what he says.

There's nothing in the text (as with major image) that allows you to move or alter the illusion. But does the illusory item appear to act as expected? Can the illusion move with the thing you target? If I put a steel box on top of the creature's head, and he walks, does the box move with him or just sit, floating in the air? The text is unclear. My 'steel sphere filled with acid' idea requires this acknowledgement from the DM to work.

I acknowledge that the spell's power varies according to the DM, but there are uses of Phantasmal Force that are valid for nearly all DMs. I'd say all DMs, but I can't guarantee you a 100% chance of anything, so "nearly all" will have to do.

What Phantasmal Force does is similar to a real time Inception. As Cobb says in that film, the most powerful thing you can implant in someone's head is a thought. If you can alter someone's perception of reality and know 100% of the time that they will believe their perception is real, that is straight up mind control. Everything we do is in response to stimuli/information we get from the environment, and for someone else to be able to control that stimuli/information is almost equivalent to them controlling us.

You just need to know how to work the spell so that it's most relevant to your situation, and sometimes that involves more than just casting the spell. Knowing your target's fears, desires, or goals might help. Timing might be key. There's a lot of potential in this avenue of the spell.

In combat, yes, the DM can just straight up start rolling Intelligence checks against your DC regardless of the illusion you're presenting them with, regardless of how convincing it ought to be. Of course, they'd be wasting their action to do this, so it's a net win for your party.

But worse, they might just have the monsters ignore the spell entirely. But even those DMs will have a specific application of Phantasmal Force that they will find hard to ignore. For example, if you conjure an image of a twin of yourself, the RAW says the target must believe they are seeing a true version of you, and they won't be able to tell which one is real without wasting their actions (or the DM metagaming - but in that case, your problems are bigger than illusion spells). Or you can make a twin copy of your tank, fighter, or cleric, and protect them instead of you.

My point is, you can use Phantasmal Force to force the target to make an action you want them to make because you can make them believe that something unbelievable has happened. And to an imaginative mind, that has unbounded potential.


I allow the illusion to track with the target in my games, since the thing only exists in the target's head to begin with, and because I like spells that use creativity.

By the absolute most dickish reading of RAW, you can still do the following nasty tricks:
1. Make him halllucinate that a famous wizard has teleported in and is powering up a massive spell that will kill everyone. (remember, he will rationalize his inability to hurt the wizard, as well as the wizard's presence)
2. put him in an iron maiden covered in razor-sharp blades. The blades will hurt him, so unless he's a psycho it doesn't make sense for him to try and bang on the walls. He won't take damage if he doesn't bang on the walls, though.
3. Make him think that a door is open when it is in fact closed, make an illusory bridge, etc.

In short, if your DM is restrictive about this sort of thing, it's situational, but not really garbage. In that situation Suggestion is better.

I think (1) still needs an Intimidation check if the goal is to induce surrender. (2) is a clever variation of the cupboard "trap". (3) is standard fare for illusion spells.

[samcifer]

Of course Phantasmal Force cannot inflict status conditions beyond what the spell says it can. It can't make an illusion other than a bridge by RAW, and all other illusory phenomenon are up to the DM to allow or not (as with all illusion spells).

But if the illusion blocks line of sight, or is too noisy to drown out other sounds, then the targets are effectively blind or deaf, even if they don't have the status condition (the same way you can't see someone standing behind a wall even if you're not blind or they're not invisible, or can't hear someone talking in a concert).

What if you form an illusion of mithril chains covered in flesh-piercing spikes that wrap up/bind the victim? If they fail the check, would they believe they are restrained and act as such while taking the 1d6 damage? Also, would the 'restrained' condition apply to them in this state?

[strangebloke]

I acknowledge that the spell's power varies according to the DM, but there are uses of Phantasmal Force that are valid for nearly all DMs. I'd say all DMs, but I can't guarantee you a 100% chance of anything, so "nearly all" will have to do.

I think (1) still needs an Intimidation check if the goal is to induce surrender. (2) is a clever variation of the cupboard "trap". (3) is standard fare for illusion spells.

Unlike an 'inception' though, it has definite limitations. Ten foot area, can't alter it, can't make it move, etc. So it is limited.

And if the guy just wastes his turn using investigation, you might have been better off with hold person or suggestion, if those were available.

I like your mirage tank though. Very fun idea. You could easily create three illusory copies within a ten foot radius, so long your DM let's you stretch the definition of 'object'

(1) was more intended to make him waste his turn attacking the illusion, possibly putting the illusion in place of an enemy. Or to make him flee because elminster just showed up.
(3) is basic, yeah, but it has the bonus of being selective. The minions rush through while the boss is just sitting there confused.

Anyway, I think we've digressed.

[strangebloke]

What if you form an illusion of mithril chains covered in flesh-piercing spikes that wrap up/bind the victim? If they fail the check, would they believe they are restrained and act as such while taking the 1d6 damage?

No.

Rather, if they spend an action to free themselves, they are free, since the chains don't actually restrain them.

The most generous interpretation would allow the spikes to regrapple the enemy every round.

According to JC, DMs shouldn't require a check to free themselves at all.

[samcifer]

No.

Rather, if they spend an action to free themselves, they are free, since the chains don't actually restrain them.

The most generous interpretation would allow the spikes to regrapple the enemy every round.

According to JC, DMs shouldn't require a check to free themselves at all.

So all it can do is confine them to a small area of movement and nothing else? So much for taking that spell, then. Guess I'd be better off sticking with Chromatic Orb.

[Dr. Cliché]

No.

Rather, if they spend an action to free themselves, they are free, since the chains don't actually restrain them.

According to what was said before, they wouldn't even need to spend an action. All they need to do is move their arms and they'll be free - since they can just rationalise it as the chains breaking easily or crumbling to dust.

[LeonBH]

What if you form an illusion of mithril chains covered in flesh-piercing spikes that wrap up/bind the victim? If they fail the check, would they believe they are restrained and act as such while taking the 1d6 damage?

They have to believe they're bound by mithril chains covered in flesh-piercing spikes. They might act accordingly if they fail the check, but there is nothing to stop them from moving away from their spot and physically waving their arms around.

If they do move around, they could rationalize that the mithril chains, which they still believe to be real, have loosened up and have stopped restraining them. That is also in accordance with the spell description.


Unlike an 'inception' though, it has definite limitations. Ten foot area, can't alter it, can't make it move, etc. So it is limited.

And if the guy just wastes his turn using investigation, you might have been better off with hold person or suggestion, if those were available.

I like your mirage tank though. Very fun idea. You could easily create three illusory copies within a ten foot radius, so long your DM let's you stretch the definition of 'object'

(1) was more intended to make him waste his turn attacking the illusion, possibly putting the illusion in place of an enemy. Or to make him flee because elminster just showed up.
(3) is basic, yeah, but it has the bonus of being selective. The minions rush through while the boss is just sitting there confused.

Anyway, I think we've digressed.

You don't have to create a world to implant a thought. Innocently, you can score free drinks by making the bartender believe you're with the King (who is in disguise in a cloak, and wants the bartender to keep it a secret). Malevolently, you can make a known foe believe you've kidnapped his wife/child/mother and only his compliance to your will can save them.

Note that when the spell ends, as long as they never made the save or passed the check, they don't realize they were under an illusion. So the bartender will continue to think you're with the King, and the known foe will continue to think you have his wife/child/mother in your custody.

Also note that with just the above two examples, there are a great number of variations of that theme already. Using someone with a position of power over your target could take many forms. Bartender/boss. Worker/boss. Guard/king. Daughter/mother. Son/Father. Etc. And using someone the target emotionally cares about as leverage could take many forms as well.

You just need to know the right buttons to push and you can implant a perpetual suggestion in his mind, without using the Suggestion, Dominate X, or Charm X line of spells.

Once again, the point is to implant a thought that will force them to do something you want them to do. That is Dominate Monster, minus the concentration and duration restriction (if you implant a thought deftly enough, they will continue to believe that thought after the spell ends, because you would implant a thought whose nature is like that), minus the action requirement, and with a minor damage effect.

But it's a style of use of Phantasmal Force that requires a lot of imagination, observation, and engagement with the campaign. It's not something you can pull every encounter, sure, but it's something that will let you manually steer the plot in unexpected directions, changing the course of the game.

And we did digress. But hopefully, I've demonstrated at least a sliver of the potential of PF in any given campaign.

[brainface]

I think you just need to heavily favor spells with attack rolls, and keep darkness up on yourself as much as possible. Chill Touch isn't the most exciting cantrip, but chill touch with advantage every round is probably going to hit. Twinned Chromatic Orbs with advantage are probably fun. (And probably eats all your spell points, but meh.)

That is, you have a very reliable (if resource expensive) source of advantage to attack, use it like it's going out of style. ^^

[samcifer]

Then what's the point of Phantasmal Force then? If it can't do more than make illusions that do weak damage, it sounds rather useless as a combat spell.

[LeonBH]

Then what's the point of Phantasmal Force then? If it can't do more than make illusions that do weak damage, it sounds rather useless as a combat spell.

Phantasmal Force was originally a spell used to scare enemies away. What it used to do was summon an illusory army, and presumably the opposing side will flee. That's why it's called a phantasmal (ie, illusory) force (ie, army).

You can still do that with Phantasmal Force. But since the spell has changed a lot, you can use it for other things now, too. You can't restrain, but you can block line of sight, drown out sounds, instill confusion, manipulate targets into doing your will, protect your allies, and of course, scare your enemies into surrender/retreat.

[Easy_Lee]

Since I could not guess, let me just ask: what do you want your sorcerer to do? Sorcerers can be great at one or two things, but you have to know exactly what those things are before you put pen to paper.

Depending on what you're looking for, asking your DM to let you rebuild the character may be in order. But maybe not.

[strangebloke]

I think you just need to heavily favor spells with attack rolls, and keep darkness up on yourself as much as possible. Chill Touch isn't the most exciting cantrip, but chill touch with advantage every round is probably going to hit. Twinned Chromatic Orbs with advantage are probably fun. (And probably eats all your spell points, but meh.)

That is, you have a very reliable (if resource expensive) source of advantage to attack, use it like it's going out of style. ^^

He's right. As a shadow sorcerer, you have two additional metamagics: shadow doggo and darkness. Darkness allows for efficient attack rolls, doggo is good with saving throws.

Darkness is a big boost to damage and defense, even if all you do is cover yourself.

Remember, never cast darkness. Use a bonus action to convert a second level slot to sp, and then use that sp to cast darkness.

[Gardakan]

I've not been on the player side a lot this edition, but I have a Cleric 1 (Life) - Sorcerer 3 (Divine Soul from XGtE) and it's going pretty well so far in terms of planning.

I dipped 1 in Life Cleric to sustain my healing part a lot, and I've been taking all the level 1 from Cleric before focusing on the sorcerer aspect. I am slowed by 1 level in spell progression overall, but I'm doing fairly well.

This is the only character I've been playing, and it does what it's supposed to do quite well. It heals... it buffs (thanks to Twinned Spell from sorcerer, you can make great use of the action economy potential... and if you want to be a face just grab subtle spell).

As for the spells available, I don't have to tell you more about the vast amount of benefits having 1 level dip in Cleric (Life) Brings in 5 spells to the level 1 list (thus covering all my needs basically), and letting me enjoy the Sorcerer spells a bit more at higher levels (planning ahead is key).

The sorcerer strives in term of action economy. Twinned Spell is so good on a support (Twinning a Healing Word is clutch mini-burst heal).

Sorcerers don't tend to suck. They're designed towards accomplishing powerful deeds, while Wizard have way more versatility.

[samcifer]

Phantasmal Force was originally a spell used to scare enemies away. What it used to do was summon an illusory army, and presumably the opposing side will flee. That's why it's called a phantasmal (ie, illusory) force (ie, army).

You can still do that with Phantasmal Force. But since the spell has changed a lot, you can use it for other things now, too. You can't restrain, but you can block line of sight, drown out sounds, instill confusion, manipulate targets into doing your will, protect your allies, and of course, scare your enemies into surrender/retreat.

So could I use it to make the target think that I and the other players are its allies and its REAL allies are us so it attacks them instead?

[LeonBH]

So could I use it to make the target think that I and the other players are its allies and its REAL allies are us so it attacks them instead?

Where in the spell description gives you this idea?

EDIT: Obviously, you're taking my words "manipulate them into doing your will" and running with it. Obviously, the answer is no. And obviously, the fact that you can't literally make its allies into its enemies does not make Phantasmal Force a useless damage spell.

Much less obviously, you can trick the target into defecting, joining your side, by presenting him with evidence that would make him abandon his original team. How you do that is entirely dependent on your imagination and knowledge of your enemies.

[Gardakan]

So could I use it to make the target think that I and the other players are its allies and its REAL allies are us so it attacks them instead?

That is suggestion, not phantasmal force.

Phantasmal Force creates something new that tries to make the target believes it is happening.

Suggestion disrupt cognitive dissonance of the target to reorganize a certain idea or thought process for the duration.

[samcifer]

That is suggestion, not phantasmal force.

Phantasmal Force creates something new that tries to make the target believes it is happening.

Suggestion disrupt cognitive dissonance of the target to reorganize a certain idea or thought process for the duration.

So since PF has no useful applications, I should choose a different spell. That sucks. :(

I guess I'll have to go with either Web or see if my DM will let me take Flaming Sphere so I have a spell that will both have a decent chance to hit by avoiding targeting Wisdom as PF is a useless spell.

[LeonBH]

So since PF has no useful applications, I should choose a different spell. That sucks. :(

Not really, PF is better than Suggestion, though both are top tier spells among the 2nd level spells.

Suggestion is limited by the requirement that the suggestion must be reasonable and not self-harming, among other limitations. PF is not.

[Gardakan]

So since PF has no useful applications, I should choose a different spell. That sucks. :(


Phantasmal Force has lot of useful applications.

It's just a level 2 spell. You have to work within the power level of the spell you are reading.

Suggestion is level 3. See the pattern.

I had a bard which used Phantasmal Force in plenty of different fashion (both in Social encounters and Combat, while outside of these two also), it's hilarious. Just use your imagination and be sure that it works within the limits of the spell.

[LeonBH]

Suggestion is level 3. See the pattern.

Minor correction. Suggestion is level 2.

[samcifer]

Minor correction. Suggestion is level 2.

But it targets Wisdom, which means it will have little chance to hit. :(

[LeonBH]

But it targets Wisdom, which means it will have little chance to hit. :(

Yep, and just another reason why PF is the stronger spell. Int save proficiency is far less common.

EDIT: Though Suggestion is also incredibly strong despite the Wis save. Used properly, it can replicate Detect Thoughts, Charm Person, Friends, Tasha's Hideous Laughter...

[Gardakan]

But it targets Wisdom, which means it will have little chance to hit. :(

Everything has little chance to hit if the target makes the saving throw.

That's the point of letting dice decides the outcome of things.

[Gardakan]

Yep, and just another reason why PF is the stronger spell. Int save proficiency is far less common.

Don't give him everything right away.

You were right for Suggestion being level 2, I still have the old level of the spell in mind. The effect is still, to me, stronger in effect then Phantasmal Force in terms of reality warping, but both are potent. If I intended to make someone who tricks with people's mind, I'd take both (Phantasmal Force is more disruptive on the short term while Suggestion can make the long game so efficient).

[samcifer]

Yep, and just another reason why PF is the stronger spell. Int save proficiency is far less common.

EDIT: Though Suggestion is also incredibly strong despite the Wis save. Used properly, it can replicate Detect Thoughts, Charm Person, Friends, Tasha's Hideous Laughter...

But again, PF is a useless spell for me because nothing I think of as a use for it would work. Because of my lack of creativity in regards to it (apparently) I have no choice but to stick to a blaster approach to spellcasting my taking spells that damage, defend, heal or remove status effects. Any head-games spells are beyond my ability to use as a player because they make no sense to me on how they're supposed to be useful. :(

Sorry to come off as a jerk or that I'm flinging an enraged serpent, but I clearly don't get mind magick spells at all and no idea I have for using them works, making them useless to me.

[Gardakan]

But again, PF is a useless spell for me because nothing I think of as a use for it would work. Because of my lack of creativity in regards to it (apparently) I have no choice but to stick to a blaster approach to spellcasting my taking spells that damage, defend, heal or remove status effects. Any head-games spells are beyond my ability to use as a player because they make no sense to me on how they're supposed to be useful. :(

Phantasmal Force is useless if you don't think of something that will do anything different if the target believes what you described.

Phantasmal Force is pretty efficient if you know what you want it to achieve (believe that you are in a darkness... simple and he loses sight).

[LeonBH]

Phantasmal Force is more disruptive on the short term while Suggestion can make the long game so efficient.

That's actually opposite my experience. PF changes the long term direction of the campaign because it's "traceless" in that the belief stays with the target even after the spell's duration expires and they don't know they were under an illusion (assuming you didn't kill the target). They can continue to believe for months if they didn't break free from the spell in the first minute.

Suggestion works only for 8 hours so it's shorter term. It's great for instant mind control but once the duration expires, you've lost your lackey and must re-cast the spell.


But again, PF is a useless spell for me because nothing I think of as a use for it would work. Because of my lack of creativity in regards to it (apparently) I have no choice but to stick to a blaster approach to spellcasting my taking spells that damage, defend, heal or remove status effects. Any head-games spells are beyond my ability to use as a player because they make no sense to me on how they're supposed to be useful. :(

Sorry to come off as a jerk or that I'm flinging an enraged serpent, but I clearly don't get mind magick spells at all and no idea I have for using them works, making them useless to me.

Ah, I got the wrong vibe. Sorry, I misunderstood you. I think using PF efficiently requires a certain amount of Evil to be present in the player as well. Just because you can't be afraid to think outside the box and potentially entertain thoughts that are certainly not in the neighborhood of Good.

[Dr. Cliché]

Suggestion is limited by the requirement that the suggestion must be reasonable and not self-harming, among other limitations. PF is not.

Perhaps, but at least Suggestion can't be overridden by the target moving his arms or taking a couple of steps forward.

[Gardakan]

That's actually opposite my experience. PF changes the long term direction of the campaign because it's "traceless" in that the belief stays with the target even after the spell's duration expires and they don't know they were under an illusion (assuming you didn't kill the target). They can continue to believe for months if they didn't break free from the spell in the first minute.

Suggestion works only for 8 hours so it's shorter term. It's great for instant mind control but once the duration expires, you've lost your lackey and must re-cast the spell.

That is hilarious and proves that both spells are useful. In the end, it's all up to the player to make it work (the DM has to buy it basically). I've been a GM for 90 % of my gaming time so far and I'm always amazed how creative players can be sometimes.

[Temperjoke]

Thread is starting to get offtrack, but Phantasmal Force reminds me of genjutsu (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Genjutsu) from Naruto anime/manga, albeit with less success, more chances to break it.

[LeonBH]

Perhaps, but at least Suggestion can't be overridden by the target moving his arms or taking a couple of steps forward.

Not all illusions by PF can be overridden by waving your arms or taking a couple steps forward. Only a subset.

For example, if your illusion has no stationary walls, there is nothing to touch that is wall like.

Even a simple illusion of "make his underwear give off a thick and steady column of black smoke" will bypass that "restriction" because your arms naturally pass through smoke, while blocking line of sight.

[Garresh]

Lol @ phantasmal force discussion. Phantasmal Force is, RAW, garbage. Phantasmal Force is, depending on DM, amazing. Basically the rules for what illusions actually govern are intentionally open ended. A strict interpretation makes the spell garbage. A more lax interpretation makes it the best 2nd level spell in the game. In short, YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT, depending on WHO is DMing. In my limited experience, the average DM gives you a decent amount of play with Phantasmal Force over a normal illusion, since it is more of a mind altering effect than a "true" illusion. If you're looking to debuff, you can do a lot with it depending on circumstance.

[danpit2991]

i the long long ago (2E) i had a gnome illusionist and this was one of my go to spells need to intimidate? burning tendrils of fire slowly creep up on the target , need some breathing room in a fight oh look i just summoned a hellhound need to cover an escape? bamm pillar of fire very useful spell. in this edition and all previous editions illusion spells require a willing dm as they are very, how do i say it? subjective to interpretation. the whole school of magic was designed around the rule of cool so if you or your dm dont have imaginations (which would be strange given the topic) or the dm seriously metas against you they are just meh spells

[Gardakan]

i the long long ago (2E) i had a gnome illusionist and this was one of my go to spells need to intimidate? burning tendrils of fire slowly creep up on the target , need some breathing room in a fight oh look i just summoned a hellhound need to cover an escape? bamm pillar of fire very useful spell. in this edition and all previous editions illusion spells require a willing dm as they are very, how do i say it? subjective to interpretation. the whole school of magic was designed around the rule of cool so if you or your dm dont have imaginations (which would be strange given the topic) or the dm seriously metas against you they are just meh spells

The meta part is so true. I love toying with my players, as they love to toy with my various encounters. Suggestion is my bread'n'butter and you have to describe what you want to do precisely in some sort as a player. I had no trouble registering an enemy who doesn't see me with Suggestion so far.

An enemy can flee reliably with Suggestion also.

I like to Twin it (Divine Soul Sorcerer are so good at making annoynig things really annoying) and have two targets receive the same ''The other guy has betrayed you''. If one of them fails, they'll attack each other and be distracted for at least 1 round, often the whole combat.

[SharkForce]

phantasmal force is super situational. i have never been in the situation (super generous DM) where it is amazing, and i have plenty of times been in the situation where the DM pretty much shuts down most illusions that don't have clearly defined effects.

for many of the uses you could have for phantasmal force (most of which involves the target being unable to interact with it), other spells work just fine, ime.

and, just to be clear, phantasmal force does not make the target believe anything about the illusion other than that it is really there. it can convince them that there's a guy standing over there dressed in robes and carrying a staff. it cannot convince you that it is khelben blackstaff (but if it looks like khelben blackstaff and you know what khelben blackstaff looks like, "that is khelben blackstaff" is certainly a reasonable assumption. if you don't know what khelben blackstaff looks like a bluff check is probably in order. if you know what khelben blackstaff looks like, and this illusion is not what he looks like, expect some suspicion... not necessarily that there is an illusion, they could just as easily believe the guy is an imposter, or that you are lying about who they are).

likewise, it cannot persuade anyone that the illusion is the king of anywhere, though it could certainly look like the king. but the target is under no obligation to believe that the (illusion of a) guy in a corner over there is the king, merely that the guy is genuinely there.

so unless your DM is going to be rather permissive about what the spell can do (and i've never met the DM who is), i find it generally to be very underwhelming.

(as to the specific use of hiding inside an illusion of a small walled area... 10x10x10 should be plenty big enough for the stereotypical group of 4 adventurers. admittedly, it will not work if you are in a group of 10, unless perhaps you use the squeezing rules and most of you are already small).

[LeonBH]

If you're a medieval bartender working at a fantasy bar, and a hooded figure reveals himself to you as the King, and you recognize the voice, the face, and the insignia, will you:

1. Disobey?
2. Obey?

Generally, the answer is (2), because he's the King and you don't question the King's actions.

[SharkForce]

If you're a medieval bartender working at a fantasy bar, and a hooded figure reveals himself to you as the King, and you recognize the voice, the face, and the insignia, will you:

1. Disobey?
2. Obey?

Generally, the answer is (2), because he's the King and you don't question the King's actions.

if you're a medieval bartender, why do you recognize the king's voice, face, and insignia? are you also the king's personal friend or something? does the king frequent your bar under normal circumstances? odds are good you've only heard him shouting from a distance at best, seen his face from a hundred feet away at best (so basically you haven't seen his face), and have no particular reason to recognize his insignia because the king doesn't need to send official diplomatic documentation to him. and all that presume he actually has ever seen the king or heard his voice under any circumstances, which may not be the case. go figure, the bartender doesn't get invited to royal balls terribly often.

add on that for some reason, the king is apparently so broke that he has to ask for freebies when he's apparently gone to extreme lengths to avoid drawing attention to himself by announcing his presence, and also you just cast a spell while in the room (which probably drew some attention from others around him), and you don't have any of the stuff marking you as the king's servant, and the king disappears 60 seconds later... that's a whole heck of a lot of failure points. you'd best be making a bluff check because if that bartender really thinks about the situation, he's gonna figure out that *something* isn't right. now he'll still believe the guy is there, but that he's the king? maybe, maybe not.

[LeonBH]

Are you suggesting the medieval bartender doesn't know who is his King?

Brilliant, then he has no business doubting someone who can even possibly remotely be the King, because the King has gold and guards and the bartender does not.

Add to that, the King can just take away the bartender's bar by force if he so wished, because that's within the rights of a King, who owns all of the land he rules over. Perks of feudalism.

There is no issue making bluff checks for it. Nothing automatically succeeds beyond what the DM allows. But once the bartender believes you are associated with the King, you control that bartender from that moment onwards.

[SharkForce]

i am suggesting that the bartender doesn't necessarily know his king by sight, or by voice, and certainly has no particularly compelling reason to presume that some random guy in his bar is actually the king when he shows up with no guards, no attendants, no servants, etc.

[LeonBH]

Because you said "no reason" I feel like you are desperately trying to reject any notion of this particular trick succeeding.

There are many reasons to believe the man is the King, and there are many reasons not to. The fact that he can be believed means it is the opposite of "no reason."

[Kane0]

Spam Gust of Wind. The Gust cantrip will also do in a pinch.

[SharkForce]

Because you said "no reason" I feel like you are desperately trying to reject any notion of this particular trick succeeding.

There are many reasons to believe the man is the King, and there are many reasons not to. The fact that he can be believed means it is the opposite of "no reason."

uh-huh.

lots of reasons to believe some random schmuck is the king, huh?

if you say so.

do yourself a favour, don't open any emails from nigerian princes.

also, don't buy the brooklyn bridge. it's not really for sale.

[LeonBH]

uh-huh.

lots of reasons to believe some random schmuck is the king, huh?

if you say so.

do yourself a favour, don't open any emails from nigerian princes.

also, don't buy the brooklyn bridge. it's not really for sale.

Uh huh.

You missed the memo that Phantasmal Force is a magical spell. And it creates an illusion you believe is real.

(EDIT: And that the punishment for slighting the King is severe in medieval magic land, making it a very stupid choice to risk talking back to the King.)

But if you want to insist it creates a random shmuck, less power to your players.

[SharkForce]

Uh huh.

You missed the memo that Phantasmal Force is a magical spell. And it creates an illusion you believe is real.

(EDIT: And that the punishment for slighting the King is severe in medieval magic land, making it a very stupid choice to risk talking back to the King.)

But if you want to insist it creates a random shmuck, less power to your players.

phantasmal force creates an illusion you believe is a real thing. nothing says you have to believe everything it says no matter how outlandish or absurd. nothing says you have to believe it is who it says it is. and since you've said the king is in diguise, and since the spell certainly doesn't have anywhere near enough AoE to include all the proper servants and guards and so forth, you're creating an absurdly unbelievable scenario. if the bartender legitimately thinks the real king just walked into the tavern in diguise, he might give out free beer. but more likely, that isn't the real king, it's just some moron pretending to be the king, and no, the bartender is not going to do whatever is asked because that scenario is laughably absurd.

[LeonBH]

Then you are saying the following things:

1. The scenario can be made plausible by switching out the King and replacing him with something else, such that the scenario is no longer absurd
2. It is plausible for the trick to work after all, once the scenario is no longer absurd

If you had an issue with the King in disguise, then your players should not try that with you specifically. The point is PF forces the bartender to bend to your will via the illusion you present.

I'm not sure if you're using this one example to deny all the illusions of PF, or if you're just denying this one scenario while allowing all the rest. In case it's the first, then you're nerfing an entire style of play and that's a problem your players have to put up with. If it's the second, I'm not really concerned with your specific ruling. PF isn't supposed to score you free drinks at a bar. The point is it can if you use it well.

[SharkForce]

Then you are saying the following things:

1. The scenario can be made plausible by switching out the King and replacing him with something else, such that the scenario is no longer absurd
2. It is plausible for the trick to work after all, once the scenario is no longer absurd

If you had an issue with the King in disguise, then your players should not try that with you specifically. The point is PF forces the bartender to bend to your will via the illusion you present.

I'm not sure if you're using this one example to deny all the illusions of PF, or if you're just denying this one scenario while allowing all the rest. In case it's the first, then you're nerfing an entire style of play and that's a problem your players have to put up with. If it's the second, I'm not really concerned with your specific ruling. PF isn't supposed to score you free drinks at a bar. The point is it can if you use it well.

phantasmal force doesn't require anyone to bend to anyone's will. it creates an illusion of a visible phenomenon which the target believes is real. nothing forces the target to believe any random arbitrary facts related to that illusion, so you'd better make sure it's something reasonably plausible. in order for the target to believe that an avatar of a deity has shown up to smite it, rather than being an obvious fraud, it's going to need to have some context to believe that the deity in question gives enough of a crap to actually show up instead of doing whatever it is that gods normally do with their time, which for most gods will not involve personally showing up to smite mortals.

and yes, hypothetically you could try the trick (or something like it) with something less obviously absurd. you could also try the bluff without an illusion, thereby saving a spell slot.

[danpit2991]

exactly as Leon says the spell causes you to believe the illusion is real i admit a king trying to score free drinks is ludicrous but since the illusion is a construct of the targets mind and not any kind of visual effect its kind of combining a spell like suggestion and an illusion it is mind affecting magic so to use the ridiculous king in a bar scenario in a feudal setting believe it or not even the common people would have an idea of what the monarch looks like maybe not perfect knowledge but thats the beauty of the spell it makes the target believe that the illusion is true and any inconsistencies are taken care of by the targets own mind so while he might ask himself why is the king in my bar he will also answer the question for himself ie its not my business to question those better than me and its best i dont know. the scenario of king in a bar could easily be changed to mayor in a bar or anything the point is that the innkeep will believe because he has no choice.

as for PFing a bag or box around someones head to blind them yes the box would move with them until they left the area of effect then their mind would make up some excuse as to why it came off and as for a wall of fire gues what people know magic exists fire is common in magic and most 6yold know not to touch fire especially because the target is forced to believe it is real



EDIT**** and as for an avatar showing up to smite once again people know magic exists people know gods exist ergo it wouldnt be shocking that someone could summon assistance magically from said diety clerics do it daily

[LeonBH]

phantasmal force doesn't require anyone to bend to anyone's will. it creates an illusion of a visible phenomenon which the target believes is real. nothing forces the target to believe any random arbitrary facts related to that illusion, so you'd better make sure it's something reasonably plausible.

And that is all a good imagination needs to bend targets to their will.


in order for the target to believe that an avatar of a deity has shown up to smite it, rather than being an obvious fraud, it's going to need to have some context to believe that the deity in question gives enough of a crap to actually show up instead of doing whatever it is that gods normally do with their time, which for most gods will not involve personally showing up to smite mortals.

PF makes the spell real, so you cannot assume it is a fraud as far as its existence is concerned.

It's totally up to each person how they will react when a god appears before them to smite them. It sounds like your NPCs don't care about such tricks, and I'm getting the vibe you are inclined to bypass those illusions somehow. If so, less power to your players.


and yes, hypothetically you could try the trick (or something like it) with something less obviously absurd. you could also try the bluff without an illusion, thereby saving a spell slot.

Correct. And you can spend a spell slot to do it.

[SharkForce]

exactly as Leon says the spell causes you to believe the illusion is real i admit a king trying to score free drinks is ludicrous but since the illusion is a construct of the targets mind and not any kind of visual effect its kind of combining a spell like suggestion and an illusion it is mind affecting magic so to use the ridiculous king in a bar scenario in a feudal setting believe it or not even the common people would have an idea of what the monarch looks like maybe not perfect knowledge but thats the beauty of the spell it makes the target believe that the illusion is true and any inconsistencies are taken care of by the targets own mind so while he might ask himself why is the king in my bar he will also answer the question for himself ie its not my business to question those better than me and its best i dont know. the scenario of king in a bar could easily be changed to mayor in a bar or anything the point is that the innkeep will believe because he has no choice.

as for PFing a bag or box around someones head to blind them yes the box would move with them until they left the area of effect then their mind would make up some excuse as to why it came off and as for a wall of fire gues what people know magic exists fire is common in magic and most 6yold know not to touch fire especially because the target is forced to believe it is real



EDIT**** and as for an avatar showing up to smite once again people know magic exists people know gods exist ergo it wouldnt be shocking that someone could summon assistance magically from said diety clerics do it daily

the spell makes you believe the illusion is a real thing. just because there's an illusion of "king so and so" doesn't mean that the target must believe that it legitimately is king so and so, as opposed to someone that looks like king so and so for any variety of reasons. they won't believe it's not there, but they can believe whatever else they want about it.


PF makes the spell real, so you cannot assume it is a fraud as far as its existence is concerned.

It's totally up to each person how they will react when a god appears before them to smite them. It sounds like your NPCs don't care about such tricks, and I'm getting the vibe you are inclined to bypass those illusions somehow. If so, less power to your players.



Correct. And you can spend a spell slot to do it.

PF makes the target believe the spell is a real thing. it doesn't make you believe that the thing over there is a real avatar of a god, it just makes you believe that the thing really is there. it could be some sort of puppet, a big creature disguised as the god, or whatever, but the thing is, unless corellon larethian makes a habit of traveling around the world smiting random small groups of orcs, you have created a scenario where "this thing is obviously something trying to trick me into believing it is correllon larethian" is more reasonable then "clearly corellon larethian has decided to show up and fight half a dozen orcs in the middle of nowhere".

now, if you're in the main temple of corellon larethian that is currently being desecrated by orcs, it would be a bit more plausible that the avatar of corellon would show up. but again, nothing forces you to believe that the illusion is the real avatar of corellon larethian, it only requires you to believe that the thing really is there. it isn't a charm or a suggestion, it's an illusion.

[LeonBH]

Correct, you aren't forced to believe in something you see. Phantasmal Force only makes you see, not believe.

This does not invalidate Phantasmal Force at all.

Regarding your orc example, for the orcs to know correllon larethian does not go around smiting random things, they would have to know enough lore to know correllon larethian does not make that a habit. It's plausible they do know this lore, and it's plausible they don't.

But how overt. Why would a creative illusionist want to spam the same illusion on different groups of orcs?

It's totally up to the DM to validate or invalidate such illusions. You seem to be inclined to invalidate them.

[Dr. Cliché]

Without wishing to derail the Phantasman Force discussion (:smallwink:), do you guys have any suggestions for higher levels?

I'm thinking in terms of what 3rd/4th spells to get when I eventually reach that level.

[Raif]

Without wishing to derail the Phantasman Force discussion (:smallwink:), do you guys have any suggestions for higher levels?

I'm thinking in terms of what 3rd/4th spells to get when I eventually reach that level.

Hypnotic Pattern, Wall of Fire, Banishment, Sickening Radiance, Watery Sphere, Polymorph, Slow, Fear

[Asmotherion]

I look forward to eventually doing worthwhile damage when I'm lucky enough to crit.



You say that, but even my non-Cantrip spells rarely even match their damage, let alone exceed it. Currently, it seems like I have to spend resources to be almost as good as they are.



I see. Well, given that I already hate metamagic, I guess I'm in for a bad time with this class.



The thing is, it seems like I don't have enough spell points for any metamagic. Especially if I'm also planning to use Darkness or the Shadow Wolf thing at lv6. If I use Darkness even once then I'm left with a single spell point to use on a metamagic ability. That doesn't seem like enough to want to build around. And if I want to use the lv6 Shadow Wolf ability more then once per day, that'll consume my entire daily allotment of spell points.



She's a half-elf with 14 Dex and 18 Cha. I can give the crossbow a go, but having a significantly worse to-hit bonus makes me wary of it.



Yeah, I get it. Sorcerers get better eventually. But that knowledge doesn't make the intervening levels and less tedious.



Having never played a sorcerer before, I did exactly that.

That was de facto precisely how I came to end up with this sodding mess of a character. :smallfrown:



Pretty much.

To be honest, when I picked metamagic, I thought it was something that would only matter in later levels anyway. I mean, I've currently got barely any spell points to begin with (and casting Darkness uses up 2/3 of them), and from lv6 onwards I'd thought that most of them would be used to summon the Shadow Wolf (which would also stand in for Heighten Spell). I do regret not picking Subtle Spell, but all the guides I read basically marked it as pointless (making it seem like a rather bad choice for my first Sorcerer).



That's good to know. I wish I'd read it before I made my character. :smallconfused:



Thanks for the input. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who experienced this. :smallsmile:



Thinking about it, I think Debuffer and Controller would be the best fit for my character. Not sure which I'd want as my primary role - it might depend on their respective spell lists.

Regarding my theme, Necrotic/vampire-y would be more accurate. I only went with ice because necrotic seemed rather underrepresented on the sorcerer spell list. :smalltongue:



I have a couple of questions:
1) Is there a winner between Phantasmal Force and Suggestion, or should I aim to have both?
2) Regarding Phantasmal Force, do you have any suggestions (hah!) for illusions that should keep enemies occupied?



I'm afraid I don't follow you on this. Surely my character pledging their soul/servitude to a dark power or sentient weapon is far from a trivial decision?

Anyway, I get it - Warlock would be a great addition to a sorcerer. If I'd known this earlier, I probably could have tweaked her backstory to have her start as one. However, as it stands, there's just no way she'd go through with something like this.

There are more tropes to a pact than that of a servant-master or selling your soul. Being a Shadow Sorcerer allows to explore just that; You could for example make a pact with your very own Shadow (depending on your DM) and use it as a weapon; the terms of the pact would be to win against it in a fight/duel.

Or perhaps a Vampire ancestor from the Shadowfell is your Patron, in the literal meaning; He teaches you Arcane Knowlage and provided you with an ancient Magical Weapon that belonged in your fammily for generations, and expects you to bring glory to the fammily's name in return.

In any case, if you don't feel like it, it's ok. It's still a very good option IMO.

[Citan]

@Sharforce and @LeonBH and others: guys, this discussion on Phantasmal Force is interesting, but it's really not the point of the thread. I'd argue that it would merit a dedicated thread. ;)


Without wishing to derail the Phantasman Force discussion (:smallwink:), do you guys have any suggestions for higher levels?

I'm thinking in terms of what 3rd/4th spells to get when I eventually reach that level.


Hypnotic Pattern, Wall of Fire, Banishment, Sickening Radiance, Watery Sphere, Polymorph, Slow, Fear
I plus all of these ones, especially Slow, Polymorph and Wall of Fire (but they are really all great spells, and Hypnotic Pattern can also be used as a mega-sleep for infiltration too IIRC).

[Daphne]

Without wishing to derail the Phantasman Force discussion (:smallwink:), do you guys have any suggestions for higher levels?

I'm thinking in terms of what 3rd/4th spells to get when I eventually reach that level.

Fireball, Haste, Fly, Polymorph and Banishment.

[Gardakan]

If you don't want to suck as a sorcerer, make sure the spells you selected are worth your playstyle. You get to be one of the best casters in the game if you work around your strenghts.

[Strangways]

Fireball, Haste, Fly, Polymorph and Banishment.

I'd also point out that Polymorph can be used both offensively (by polymorphing opponents into mice) and defensively (by polymorphing your ally who's down to his last hit point into a T-Rex or similarly fearsome fighting machine). It's a highly useful and versatile spell, exactly the sort of thing that a sorcerer with his limited spell list should be looking for.

[Gardakan]

I'd also point out that Polymorph can be used both offensively (by polymorphing opponents into mice) and defensively (by polymorphing your ally who's down to his last hit point into a T-Rex or similarly fearsome fighting machine). It's a highly useful and versatile spell, exactly the sort of thing that a sorcerer with his limited spell list should be looking for.

If you intend to support your fellow players, you might as well go Divine Soul and grab some healing along the way. Polymorph used a way to grant temporary hps is subpar.

[Dr. Cliché]

There are more tropes to a pact than that of a servant-master or selling your soul. Being a Shadow Sorcerer allows to explore just that; You could for example make a pact with your very own Shadow (depending on your DM) and use it as a weapon; the terms of the pact would be to win against it in a fight/duel.

I'm a little confused about how that would work. :smallconfused:

Could you perhaps elaborate a little?



Or perhaps a Vampire ancestor from the Shadowfell is your Patron, in the literal meaning; He teaches you Arcane Knowlage and provided you with an ancient Magical Weapon that belonged in your fammily for generations, and expects you to bring glory to the fammily's name in return.

Without wishing to go into too much detail, my character would never make a pact with a vampire.


In any case, if you don't feel like it, it's ok. It's still a very good option IMO.

Oh, I agree that it's a great option in terms of power. The issue is the RP aspect, with the whole pact thing really being out of character for me.


Hypnotic Pattern, Wall of Fire, Banishment, Sickening Radiance, Watery Sphere, Polymorph, Slow, Fear


I plus all of these ones, especially Slow, Polymorph and Wall of Fire (but they are really all great spells, and Hypnotic Pattern can also be used as a mega-sleep for infiltration too IIRC).


Fireball, Haste, Fly, Polymorph and Banishment.

I hope you guys won't take this the wrong way (I really do appreciate your advice), but something I'm noticing is that sorcerer spells (or at least the good ones) seem entirely independent of any overarching theme or flavour.

Am I to take it that looking for spells that fit a theme is a fool's errand?

[Strangways]

I'm a little confused about how that would work. :smallconfused:

Oh, I agree that it's a great option in terms of power. The issue is the RP aspect, with the whole pact thing really being out of character for me.

I hope you guys won't take this the wrong way (I really do appreciate your advice), but something I'm noticing is that sorcerer spells (or at least the good ones) seem entirely independent of any overarching theme or flavour.

Am I to take it that looking for spells that fit a theme is a fool's errand?

People are recommending good spells. Whether they're thematic is up to you as only you know what kind of theme you want.

[Daphne]

Am I to take it that looking for spells that fit a theme is a fool's errand?

Honestly? Yes. Metamagic is the actual Sorcerer's subclass IMO, you have to pick spells that work well with what you chose. You also learn too few spells, so versatility is important.

[Dr. Cliché]

People are recommending good spells. Whether they're thematic is up to you as only you know what kind of theme you want.

Well I've said my theme several times, but it's long since ceased to have any bearing on what spells people suggest. :smallwink:


Honestly? Yes. Metamagic is the actual Sorcerer's subclass IMO, you have to pick spells that work well with what you chose. You also learn too few spells, so versatility is important.

Okay, that's useful to know. Kinda depressing, but useful to know.

[Strangways]

Well I've said my theme several times, but it's long since ceased to have any bearing on what spells people suggest. :smallwink:

Okay, that's useful to know. Kinda depressing, but useful to know.

The sorcerer spell list is just a subset of the wizard spell list. The only spell a sorcerer has access to that a wizard does not is the unimpressive level 1 spell Chaos Bolt. Conversely, there are far more spells on the wizard spell list than are on the sorcerer spell list. What separates a sorcerer from a wizard is primarily metamagic plus various sorcerer subclass features (like your ability to use sorc points to cast Darkness that doesn't affect your own vision). Spell for spell, your spells will hit harder than a wizards due to metamagic and other subclass abilities so that's your niche as a sorcerer - hit harder than a wizard, your spells do more damage than the equivalent spell cast by a wizard, your saving throws are more difficult to make, your spells are harder to counterspell etc. depending on what metamagic you choose and how you use it. Leave versatility (including really situational spells like Earthbind) to the wizards.

[Temperjoke]

I hope you guys won't take this the wrong way (I really do appreciate your advice), but something I'm noticing is that sorcerer spells (or at least the good ones) seem entirely independent of any overarching theme or flavour.

Am I to take it that looking for spells that fit a theme is a fool's errand?

I don't think it's a fool's errand, necessarily. It's just that there are only so many spells for any particular theme that fit with a given play style. What you might want to do is think about having a couple spells being your "signature" powers that you use primarily which match your theme, with other spells being less thematic still being there to use. The other spells might be more fluffed to be in line with your core theme, as opposed to directly matching without re-fluffing.

So, your theme was a vampire/necrotic sort of thing? Well, vampires are known for their mesmerizing/hypnotic abilities so Suggestion and Phantasmal Force are still in line with that. Haste could be re-fluffed to be that you are hypnotizing your allies into performing better (I've seen this used before but I can't find the source at the moment :( ). Blur could also be re-fluffed in that you are hypnotizing the enemies' perception as well.

Misty Step and Gaseous Form are also in line with vampires turning to a mist form, with the ability to extend that power to others.

If you've been having trouble with hitting enemies, due to bad luck on your rolls or their saves, you might want to have Magic Missile as a fall back. It doesn't scale in damage that well, but at least it's a guaranteed hit, and it can be split between a couple enemies. You can also re-fluff the appearance of the missiles as you'd like, so they could be arrows of darkness or something like that.

My main point is, though, if a spell isn't immediately within your theme, a lot of times it can be re-fluffed to be.

[LeonBH]

Your metamagics are Quicken and Twin, so you need to capitalize on those with your spell selection moving forward.

Quicken is good for gishes because they can cast a spell and make attacks in the same round. I don't think that's your thing. So you're better off using spells that require your action to manipulate. The Dominate X line of spells are good for this, though they're higher level than 3rd or 4th.

Twin works with buffs and debuffs really well. Polymorph and Greater Invisibility are the two obvious choices.

[LeonBH]

The only spell a sorcerer has access to that a wizard does not is the unimpressive level 1 spell Chaos Bolt.

The spells Enhance Ability, Daylight, Water Walk, Dominate Beast, Insect Plague, Fire Storm, and Earthquake are also not on the Wizard spell list.

[Citan]

I'm a little confused about how that would work. :smallconfused:

Could you perhaps elaborate a little?

I hope you guys won't take this the wrong way (I really do appreciate your advice), but something I'm noticing is that sorcerer spells (or at least the good ones) seem entirely independent of any overarching theme or flavour.

Am I to take it that looking for spells that fit a theme is a fool's errand?


Honestly? Yes. Metamagic is the actual Sorcerer's subclass IMO, you have to pick spells that work well with what you chose. You also learn too few spells, so versatility is important.


Well I've said my theme several times, but it's long since ceased to have any bearing on what spells people suggest. :smallwink:



Okay, that's useful to know. Kinda depressing, but useful to know.
Err. Honestly? There is a good amount of truth in what Daphne said, but it's still exaggerated. The other factors are...

1. Me and probably others totally forgot about your theme as the discussion advanced. XD
2. Your themes are honestly not well covered in the first place in spells in general (from what I remember fire > lightning > radiant > poison ~= cold > acid > necrotic ~= force ~= psychic, to put it crudely). Necrotic is especially rare in Sorcerer spell list: even the "reasonably good for thematic" Vampiric Touch is on Warlock side, but no Sorcerer). Ray of Sickness is nice for a 1st level spell but gets old quick.

For necrotic and cold, only things I can think at a glance are Stinking Cloud (poison ~= necrotic because death in common, right? no?), Chromatic Orb (cold), Cloudkill and Cone of Cold, Disintegrate (refluff as flesh rotting extra fast) and Finger of Death.
But really to get a real variety in necrotic spells the only reasonable options from what I recall are Wizard and Bard (because poach), or maybe Death Cleric.

[GorogIrongut]

And conversely, because of your limited spell selection, you need to choose spells that can be used in a multitude of situations.

And remember that you can only concentrate on one spell at a time (barring twinning... :P). So when you choose your spells, think long and hard about which concentration spells you will actually use. Sorcerors get a lot of good concentration spells, but if you're always going to be using Haste in a combat situation (You're a supporter), then even though you may like Hypnotic Pattern, the odds of you using it are going to be pretty slim. Are those infrequent occasions really worth it taking up valuable spell selection space? Probably not.

Which is why I said, you NEED to know what kind of Sorceror subtype you plan on being. Otherwise you can get stuck with all the wrong spells and your gameplay will suck.

[Dr. Cliché]

The sorcerer spell list is just a subset of the wizard spell list. The only spell a sorcerer has access to that a wizard does not is the unimpressive level 1 spell Chaos Bolt. Conversely, there are far more spells on the wizard spell list than are on the sorcerer spell list. What separates a sorcerer from a wizard is primarily metamagic plus various sorcerer subclass features (like your ability to use sorc points to cast Darkness that doesn't affect your own vision). Spell for spell, your spells will hit harder than a wizards due to metamagic and other subclass abilities so that's your niche as a sorcerer - hit harder than a wizard, your spells do more damage than the equivalent spell cast by a wizard, your saving throws are more difficult to make, your spells are harder to counterspell etc. depending on what metamagic you choose and how you use it. Leave versatility (including really situational spells like Earthbind) to the wizards.

Your last sentence has me rather confused. I thought people wanted me to take spells like Polymorph specifically for their versatility?


I don't think it's a fool's errand, necessarily. It's just that there are only so many spells for any particular theme that fit with a given play style. What you might want to do is think about having a couple spells being your "signature" powers that you use primarily which match your theme, with other spells being less thematic still being there to use. The other spells might be more fluffed to be in line with your core theme, as opposed to directly matching without re-fluffing.

That's not a bad idea.



So, your theme was a vampire/necrotic sort of thing? Well, vampires are known for their mesmerizing/hypnotic abilities so Suggestion and Phantasmal Force are still in line with that. Haste could be re-fluffed to be that you are hypnotizing your allies into performing better (I've seen this used before but I can't find the source at the moment :( ). Blur could also be re-fluffed in that you are hypnotizing the enemies' perception as well.

Misty Step and Gaseous Form are also in line with vampires turning to a mist form, with the ability to extend that power to others.

Most of those are fair, but I think the Haste one is stretching it a bit. :smalltongue:


My main point is, though, if a spell isn't immediately within your theme, a lot of times it can be re-fluffed to be.

I agree with you to an extent, but I think it's also going to be hard to get the flavour across.

For example, how does a 'vampiric misty step' differ from a 'regular misty step'?

Or, in the case of Polymorph, I could only use it to turn myself or others into 'creatures of the night', but then that will reduce its versatility a fair bit. Or if I just use it to turn people into whatever is most useful (favouring creatures of the night in the rare instances when they are tied with others for 'most useful form'), then the flavour will be lost.



Err. Honestly? There is a good amount of truth in what Daphne said, but it's still exaggerated. The other factors are...

1. Me and probably others totally forgot about your theme as the discussion advanced. XD

No worries. :smallwink:



2. Your themes are honestly not well covered in the first place in spells in general (from what I remember fire > lightning > radiant > poison ~= cold > acid > necrotic ~= force ~= psychic, to put it crudely). Necrotic is especially rare in Sorcerer spell list: even the "reasonably good for thematic" Vampiric Touch is on Warlock side, but no Sorcerer). Ray of Sickness is nice for a 1st level spell but gets old quick.

Yeah, when I picked sorcerer as my class, I'd completely forgotten that Vampiric Touch wasn't on their spell list.
:smalleek:



For necrotic and cold, only things I can think at a glance are Stinking Cloud (poison ~= necrotic because death in common, right? no?), Chromatic Orb (cold), Cloudkill and Cone of Cold, Disintegrate (refluff as flesh rotting extra fast) and Finger of Death.
But really to get a real variety in necrotic spells the only reasonable options from what I recall are Wizard and Bard (because poach), or maybe Death Cleric.

To be honest, I think the ice/cold theme was a mistake to begin with. I only went with it because, as you say, Necrotic spells are so rare.

I think a more vampiric theme could work (as Temperjoke suggested, stuff like Suggestion, Misty Step are in-theme, and Polymorph could maybe work to represent shapeshifting).

However, as above, I think the difficulty is going to be how I actually represent my theme so that it doesn't just come across as a random collection of spells.


And conversely, because of your limited spell selection, you need to choose spells that can be used in a multitude of situations.

And remember that you can only concentrate on one spell at a time (barring twinning... :P). So when you choose your spells, think long and hard about which concentration spells you will actually use. Sorcerors get a lot of good concentration spells, but if you're always going to be using Haste in a combat situation (You're a supporter), then even though you may like Hypnotic Pattern, the odds of you using it are going to be pretty slim. Are those infrequent occasions really worth it taking up valuable spell selection space? Probably not.

Which is why I said, you NEED to know what kind of Sorceror subtype you plan on being. Otherwise you can get stuck with all the wrong spells and your gameplay will suck.

Well, the one archetype I really *don't* want to be is a buffer. I'm sure they can be good, but I never ever enjoy playing as them.

[Strangways]

Your last sentence has me rather confused. I thought people wanted me to take spells like Polymorph specifically for their versatility?



What I mean by leaving versatility to the wizards is that wizards can prepare obscure, highly situational spells like Earthbind for particular situations, then swap them out the next day for something else when they're no longer needed. Since the sorcerer's spells are fixed, the sorcerer needs to concentrate on spells that will be useful in a wide range of situations, and leave the highly situational spells to the wizards.

[Temperjoke]

I agree with you to an extent, but I think it's also going to be hard to get the flavour across.

For example, how does a 'vampiric misty step' differ from a 'regular misty step'?

Or, in the case of Polymorph, I could only use it to turn myself or others into 'creatures of the night', but then that will reduce its versatility a fair bit. Or if I just use it to turn people into whatever is most useful (favouring creatures of the night in the rare instances when they are tied with others for 'most useful form'), then the flavour will be lost.



Well, it's a matter of how you describe it. Normal Misty Step you teleport in a cloud of mist, but describing it as vampire-themed could be that you transform into a humanoid mist cloud that breaks apart and reforms in the spot you are teleporting to. On Polymorph, it also depends on how frequently you would use it. One thing I've noticed about Polymorph, regardless of how versatile I've seen it described, people tend to stick to the same shapes more often than not, plus transforming others shouldn't necessarily be a go-to for regular use, since they won't be able to use their class abilities while transformed (except for certain cases). It's more of an option rather than a go-to, at least in my experience.

[strangebloke]

I hope you guys won't take this the wrong way (I really do appreciate your advice), but something I'm noticing is that sorcerer spells (or at least the good ones) seem entirely independent of any overarching theme or flavour.

Am I to take it that looking for spells that fit a theme is a fool's errand?

I think if your theme is 'necrotic and cold damage' then yeah you're out of luck.

But if your theme is an aesthetic thing, then that's pretty doable.

For example, you said you wanted a cold/necrotic/shadow sorcerer.

Ask your DM to refluff hold person and slow as 'freezing' your enemy in place.
Phantasmal Force is a way to inflict visions of the shadowfell upon your targets. You are used to those terrors, but they will drive your opponents mad.
Mage armor is a actually a layer of iron-hard black ice that grows underneath your clothing.
Polymorph? Refluff the T-Rex you're turning into as some kind of eldritch-looking shadow beast. (like a lesser version of your capstone)

Seriously, you can even rename them for your character's purposes. As far as your character is concerned, it isn't "Hold Person" it's "Halt the Living." I've never met a DM that wouldn't let you do this, and it makes sorcerers like 500% better in my experience.

But I can see not wanting, say, Buffing spells or spells that deal radiant damage. Here's a little list I came up with off the top of my head with the theme of mental manipulation.

2nd:
Phantasmal Force/Suggestion: Single Target disable on pretty much any target, lots of out of combat utility, and both synergize with Twin. Suggestion is better unless you have a permissive DM.
Hold Person: If they fail their save, they will pretty much just die, since your allies auto-crit against them. This spell scales well if you cast it at a higher level, so it adds flexibility to your spell list. Synergy with Twin at low levels.

3rd:
Slow/Enemies Abound:Both are great spells for taking out heavy targets. Both have good synergy with Twin.
Hypnotic Pattern: Refluff so that it's more like a vampire's hypnotic gaze. Great CC.
Fly, Haste, Fireball, and Stinking Cloud are all great as well, but obviously they're off-theme for you.

4th
Banishment:absolutely devastating, bit high-level for twin, and maybe a little off-theme.
Sickening Radiance: AOE Damage, reveals invisible creatures, and debuffs them.

5th
Synaptic Static: 8d6 psychic damage, and everyone in the radius deals with a INT save or suck. No concentration!

6th
Disintegrate: Twin this, summon the hound, and kill everything

These spells synergize with twin and with the hound, but not so much with your darkness ability. That's fine, in my estimation. You won't have SP to use all of your abilities anyway. I would suggest that you ask if you can switch out Quicken for Subtle, though, since it's much better for what you're going for. (Quicken is best for melee Sorcerers, or for sorcerers who multiclass into Paladin or Warlock. Subtle is better for manipulators or debuffers. If you wanna be a blaster, Empower is really efficient at higher levels.)

Be very careful with your powerful, single target Save-or-die spells. Use them in conjunction with Twin or the Doggo if possible. Hope and pray that your DM isn't fudging his monster's saving throws, and try to target an appropriate save. Orc Chief? Banishment (CHA). Ogre? Phantasmal Force (INT). Deadly mercenary? Hold Person (WIS).

As the game goes on, your low-level concentration spells will compete with your higher-level ones, and your low-level damage spells will actually be worse than your cantrip for damage. Fortunately, you you can trade a spell every level, which let's you get spells that still pack a nice punch at high level. So Phantasmal Force for Misty Step, or Banishment for Dimension Door. Get rid of Chromatic orb and pick up shield or absorb elements. It's worth noting that some concentration spells, like suggestion, can be used outside of combat, so they don't neccesarily lose their value.

Anyway. That's my take.

[Strangways]

4th
Banishment:absolutely devastating, bit high-level for twin, and maybe a little off-theme.
Sickening Radiance: AOE Damage, reveals invisible creatures, and debuffs them.

5th
Synaptic Static: 8d6 psychic damage, and everyone in the radius deals with a INT save or suck. No concentration!

6th
Disintegrate: Twin this, summon the hound, and kill everything

These spells synergize with twin and with the hound, but not so much with your darkness ability. That's fine, in my estimation. You won't have SP to use all of your abilities anyway. I would suggest that you ask if you can switch out Quicken for Subtle, though, since it's much better for what you're going for. (Quicken is best for melee Sorcerers, or for sorcerers who multiclass into Paladin or Warlock. Subtle is better for manipulators or debuffers. If you wanna be a blaster, Empower is really efficient at higher levels.)


Also note that you can upcast Banishment to hit multiple targets if you don't want to spend sorc points to Twin it or if you don't have the Twin metamagic.

Sickening Radiance is awesome - a sickeningly powerful spell, particularly combined with some other spell (like a Druid's Entangle) that can hold targets within the area of effect.

Synaptic Static aka "Psychic Fireball." A fantastic spell.

Re "summon the hound," don't we all really want to say "release the hound!!!"?

Overall, Xanathar's was quite good for Arcane Casters.

[GorogIrongut]

There are important things to remember about Twin...
1. It's expensive
2. There's a whole host of errata removing a lot of sorceror spells that have the potential to target multiple targets from being twinned. This culls the small herd of sorceror spells to spells that are either single damage (i.e. you suffer from save or suck with the aforementioned expensive cost making those 'suck' moments horrible) or support spells like haste, etc. (where the OP has already said he has no desire to play a Supporter).
3. Another important thing to remember about Twin though is that a lot of Sorceror spells already have an inbuilt 'twinning' effect that can ultimately be cheaper than using the metamagic. Spells like Blindness/Deafness, Flying, Banishment can be expanded to multiple targets just by upcasting.

[Citan]

I think if your theme is 'necrotic and cold damage' then yeah you're out of luck.

But if your theme is an aesthetic thing, then that's pretty doable.

For example, you said you wanted a cold/necrotic/shadow sorcerer.

Ask your DM to refluff hold person and slow as 'freezing' your enemy in place.
Phantasmal Force is a way to inflict visions of the shadowfell upon your targets. You are used to those terrors, but they will drive your opponents mad.
Mage armor is a actually a layer of iron-hard black ice that grows underneath your clothing.
Polymorph? Refluff the T-Rex you're turning into as some kind of eldritch-looking shadow beast. (like a lesser version of your capstone)

Seriously, you can even rename them for your character's purposes. As far as your character is concerned, it isn't "Hold Person" it's "Halt the Living." I've never met a DM that wouldn't let you do this, and it makes sorcerers like 500% better in my experience.

But I can see not wanting, say, Buffing spells or spells that deal radiant damage. Here's a little list I came up with off the top of my head with the theme of mental manipulation.

2nd:
Phantasmal Force/Suggestion: Single Target disable on pretty much any target, lots of out of combat utility, and both synergize with Twin. Suggestion is better unless you have a permissive DM.
Hold Person: If they fail their save, they will pretty much just die, since your allies auto-crit against them. This spell scales well if you cast it at a higher level, so it adds flexibility to your spell list. Synergy with Twin at low levels.

3rd:
Slow/Enemies Abound:Both are great spells for taking out heavy targets. Both have good synergy with Twin.
Hypnotic Pattern: Refluff so that it's more like a vampire's hypnotic gaze. Great CC.
Fly, Haste, Fireball, and Stinking Cloud are all great as well, but obviously they're off-theme for you.

4th
Banishment:absolutely devastating, bit high-level for twin, and maybe a little off-theme.
Sickening Radiance: AOE Damage, reveals invisible creatures, and debuffs them.

5th
Synaptic Static: 8d6 psychic damage, and everyone in the radius deals with a INT save or suck. No concentration!

6th
Disintegrate: Twin this, summon the hound, and kill everything

These spells synergize with twin and with the hound, but not so much with your darkness ability. That's fine, in my estimation. You won't have SP to use all of your abilities anyway. I would suggest that you ask if you can switch out Quicken for Subtle, though, since it's much better for what you're going for. (Quicken is best for melee Sorcerers, or for sorcerers who multiclass into Paladin or Warlock. Subtle is better for manipulators or debuffers. If you wanna be a blaster, Empower is really efficient at higher levels.)

Be very careful with your powerful, single target Save-or-die spells. Use them in conjunction with Twin or the Doggo if possible. Hope and pray that your DM isn't fudging his monster's saving throws, and try to target an appropriate save. Orc Chief? Banishment (CHA). Ogre? Phantasmal Force (INT). Deadly mercenary? Hold Person (WIS).

As the game goes on, your low-level concentration spells will compete with your higher-level ones, and your low-level damage spells will actually be worse than your cantrip for damage. Fortunately, you you can trade a spell every level, which let's you get spells that still pack a nice punch at high level. So Phantasmal Force for Misty Step, or Banishment for Dimension Door. Get rid of Chromatic orb and pick up shield or absorb elements. It's worth noting that some concentration spells, like suggestion, can be used outside of combat, so they don't neccesarily lose their value.

Anyway. That's my take.
Great suggestions on spells refluffs, and that's indeed the easiest way to go for you. I'd suggest you pick it OP. ;)

[Dr. Cliché]

I think if your theme is 'necrotic and cold damage' then yeah you're out of luck.


Well, my ideal theme would be a 'vampire' one.

I simply said cold/necrotic because they initially seemed like the closest I'd get. :smalltongue:

I would like to have Enervation as one of my 4th level spells (I know it's not the strongest or most versatile, but it's about as 'vampiric' as I'm likely to get).



Polymorph? Refluff the T-Rex you're turning into as some kind of eldritch-looking shadow beast. (like a lesser version of your capstone)

I really like this idea. :smallbiggrin:



Seriously, you can even rename them for your character's purposes. As far as your character is concerned, it isn't "Hold Person" it's "Halt the Living." I've never met a DM that wouldn't let you do this, and it makes sorcerers like 500% better in my experience.

That's an interesting idea. I'll see what my GM says.



2nd:
Phantasmal Force/Suggestion: Single Target disable on pretty much any target, lots of out of combat utility, and both synergize with Twin. Suggestion is better unless you have a permissive DM.
Hold Person: If they fail their save, they will pretty much just die, since your allies auto-crit against them. This spell scales well if you cast it at a higher level, so it adds flexibility to your spell list. Synergy with Twin at low levels.


If I wanted Misty Step, would you suggest swapping out one of the above for it, or swapping out a 1st level spell for it?



3rd:
Slow/Enemies Abound:Both are great spells for taking out heavy targets. Both have good synergy with Twin.
Hypnotic Pattern: Refluff so that it's more like a vampire's hypnotic gaze. Great CC.
Fly, Haste, Fireball, and Stinking Cloud are all great as well, but obviously they're off-theme for you.


Well, Fly would probably be in-theme.



4th
Banishment:absolutely devastating, bit high-level for twin, and maybe a little off-theme.
Sickening Radiance: AOE Damage, reveals invisible creatures, and debuffs them.


I'm not sure about Sickening Radience (even refluffed, I think the effect is stretching it a bit). Would Polymorph work instead (hopefully refluffing it as you suggest above)?



5th
Synaptic Static: 8d6 psychic damage, and everyone in the radius deals with a INT save or suck. No concentration!

6th
Disintegrate: Twin this, summon the hound, and kill everything

Heh, I got to try Synaptic Static in an unrelated one-off thing recently. It's a great spell.

I haven't tried Disintegrate in 5e yet. I'll take your word that it's good.



These spells synergize with twin and with the hound, but not so much with your darkness ability. That's fine, in my estimation. You won't have SP to use all of your abilities anyway. I would suggest that you ask if you can switch out Quicken for Subtle, though, since it's much better for what you're going for. (Quicken is best for melee Sorcerers, or for sorcerers who multiclass into Paladin or Warlock. Subtle is better for manipulators or debuffers. If you wanna be a blaster, Empower is really efficient at higher levels.)

I can see what you mean with regard to swapping out Quicken. I guess I'd just seen it as being an 'emergency' metamagic (e.g. if I needed to cast a spell and disengage).

Out of interest, if I swap out Quicken for Subtle Spell, which metamagic would you suggest I take at 10th level?



Be very careful with your powerful, single target Save-or-die spells. Use them in conjunction with Twin or the Doggo if possible. Hope and pray that your DM isn't fudging his monster's saving throws, and try to target an appropriate save. Orc Chief? Banishment (CHA). Ogre? Phantasmal Force (INT). Deadly mercenary? Hold Person (WIS).

As the game goes on, your low-level concentration spells will compete with your higher-level ones, and your low-level damage spells will actually be worse than your cantrip for damage. Fortunately, you you can trade a spell every level, which let's you get spells that still pack a nice punch at high level. So Phantasmal Force for Misty Step, or Banishment for Dimension Door. Get rid of Chromatic orb and pick up shield or absorb elements. It's worth noting that some concentration spells, like suggestion, can be used outside of combat, so they don't neccesarily lose their value.

Thanks, you've given a lot of really helpful advice and suggestions here. :smallsmile:

[danpit2991]

I hope you guys won't take this the wrong way (I really do appreciate your advice), but something I'm noticing is that sorcerer spells (or at least the good ones) seem entirely independent of any overarching theme or flavour.

Am I to take it that looking for spells that fit a theme is a fool's errand?



remember that you can flavor the spells however you want

ie Burning hands- you shoot a stream or burning darkness form your hands its all in your mind how you want to do things as long as the crunch stays the same

[strangebloke]

Well, my ideal theme would be a 'vampire' one.

I simply said cold/necrotic because they initially seemed like the closest I'd get. :smalltongue:

I would like to have Enervation as one of my 4th level spells (I know it's not the strongest or most versatile, but it's about as 'vampiric' as I'm likely to get).
Enervation is fine. It actually pairs well with quicken, in that it's a channeled spell. I'm not the sort to argue that every spell needs to be a great fit, and fourth level is sort of weak as far as options go anyway.


If I wanted Misty Step, would you suggest swapping out one of the above for it, or swapping out a 1st level spell for it?
So, it all depends. Ultimately, your first level spells should be mage armor, shield, and/or absorb elements. You can easily do with only one of those, usually mage armor at low levels and shield at higher levels. Hold person is awesome at low levels, and you can upcast it which makes it a good sorcerer spell by definition. That said, you do need to use those second level slots for something and Suggestion retains its usefulness as an out-of-combat utility spell.

In other words: IDK.

In general, micromanaging your spells known list is going to be something you want to plan pretty carefully. Cut away those low-level damage spells, get rid of concentration spells that can only be used in combat (and can't be upcast efficiently) Also! Do NOT get too many high level spells. You can cast hold as a fifth level spell, but you can't cast disintegrate as a 2nd level spell. You will never have that many high level spell slots anyway.


I'm not sure about Sickening Radiance (even refluffed, I think the effect is stretching it a bit). Would Polymorph work instead (hopefully refluffing it as you suggest above)?
Polymorph is great! Wasn't sure if you'd be down since it's a buff, but here are some notes:
If you use it on yourself and get hit, there's a decent chance that you'll lose the spell. That is bad. If you're going to be in melee at all, War Caster is a great feat.

Twinning Poly is incredibly strong. It basically gives you a huge bucket of free health and a really strong channeled damage ability. Great for a last-ditch spell when you and the wizard are low on resources.

Polymorph synergizes with Quicken/Subtle, since with all three, you can chomp with your action and cast at the same time. Not really efficient, but spellcasting t-rex shadow beast!

Heh, I got to try Synaptic Static in an unrelated one-off thing recently. It's a great spell.

I haven't tried Disintegrate in 5e yet. I'll take your word that it's good.

Disintegrate is very scary to use in that if the enemy saves... nothing happens. So twinning it is risky because you're essentially dumping 10 sp worth of spells into something that has a 25% chance of doing nothing. (Use it on creatures with low DEX saves, like a gelatinous cube) If there are two high-priority targets, it might be worth it, but in general with high level spells like this you are probably better off with Doggo.


I can see what you mean with regard to swapping out Quicken. I guess I'd just seen it as being an 'emergency' metamagic (e.g. if I needed to cast a spell and disengage).
So, if you need to disengage like this, you can possibly use your darkness effect as an action and just walk away. You can also use misty step at equivalent cost and still have an action to spare.

Using quicken to get a disengage/dodge/etc. off is perfectly valid though. Just don't use it to throw out a cantrip.

Out of interest, if I swap out Quicken for Subtle Spell, which metamagic would you suggest I take at 10th level?
Ah, you'll hate me for this, but quicken becomes a lot better by tenth level! :smallbiggrin: Seriously, you get a lot of spells with channeled effects like enervation. Quicken lets you slap someone with a tentacle as an action and then throw down a fireball with a bonus action. That said, this is not good if you aren't using channeled effects all that often.

Empower can be just plain awesome, depending on how many blasty spells you're using. It gets better with every level, too. If you're having trouble with friendly fire, careful does synergize well with things like hypnotic pattern. You already have heighten in the form of the doggo, and you basically have an additional metamagic in the form of the darkness, so you've really got your bases covered.

That's the nice thing about Shadow Sorcerer. So many metamagic options! You don't have to be nearly as specialized as, say, a draconic sorcerer.

Personally I would grab empower, since you have so many high-cost options as-is.


Thanks, you've given a lot of really helpful advice and suggestions here. :smallsmile:
I really like sorcerers.

[LeonBH]

Polymorph is great! Wasn't sure if you'd be down since it's a buff, but here are some notes:
If you use it on yourself and get hit, there's a decent chance that you'll lose the spell. That is bad. If you're going to be in melee at all, War Caster is a great feat.

Twinning Poly is incredibly strong. It basically gives you a huge bucket of free health and a really strong channeled damage ability. Great for a last-ditch spell when you and the wizard are low on resources.

Polymorph synergizes with Quicken/Subtle, since with all three, you can chomp with your action and cast at the same time. Not really efficient, but spellcasting t-rex shadow beast!

You cannot cast as a beast, even with Subtle, because you lose your spellcasting ability while you're polymorphed. You do not even retain War Caster, unless the beast you morph into also has War Caster.

It's a good buff on others. It's also a good debuff (turn enemies into actual worms for 1 hour as you monologue). But it's not a stellar self-buff except for when you need the temp HP.


Disintegrate is very scary to use in that if the enemy saves... nothing happens. So twinning it is risky because you're essentially dumping 10 sp worth of spells into something that has a 25% chance of doing nothing. (Use it on creatures with low DEX saves, like a gelatinous cube) If there are two high-priority targets, it might be worth it, but in general with high level spells like this you are probably better off with Doggo.

Accurate, Twinned Disintegrate is generally a bad idea.

[Gardakan]

I'm currently toying with the Divine Sorcerer, and I must say that the potential to build something refined is quite niche but rewarding.

The fact that you can straight out twin Sanctuary and Healing Word while providing Bless at level 3 (+ 2 level 2 spells ... )

You have the basis of any support that is wanted. You can pave the way out and sustain yourself/allies.

Regarding to a level 5 sorcerer

1 : Healing Word, Sanctuary, Bless
2 : Earthen Grasping Hand (or Spiritual Weapon), Panthasmal Force/Suggestion/Silence/Blindness-Deafness/EVEN Prayer of healing (something to debuff)
3 : Counterspell - Haste

The key is to pick what you want to define your sorcerer at level 2. Shatter is a good damage spell for efficient area (likely hit 2+ creatures).

[Dr. Cliché]

Enervation is fine. It actually pairs well with quicken, in that it's a channeled spell. I'm not the sort to argue that every spell needs to be a great fit, and fourth level is sort of weak as far as options go anyway.

Do you think it's ever worth Twinning Enervation, or would that be wasting too many resources?



So, it all depends. Ultimately, your first level spells should be mage armor, shield, and/or absorb elements. You can easily do with only one of those, usually mage armor at low levels and shield at higher levels. Hold person is awesome at low levels, and you can upcast it which makes it a good sorcerer spell by definition. That said, you do need to use those second level slots for something and Suggestion retains its usefulness as an out-of-combat utility spell.

In other words: IDK.

Fair enough.



In general, micromanaging your spells known list is going to be something you want to plan pretty carefully. Cut away those low-level damage spells, get rid of concentration spells that can only be used in combat (and can't be upcast efficiently) Also! Do NOT get too many high level spells. You can cast hold as a fifth level spell, but you can't cast disintegrate as a 2nd level spell. You will never have that many high level spell slots anyway.

Interesting. I actually remember hearing the opposite from someone a while back - they said that they basically scrapped all their low-level spells for higher-level ones, and then just turned their low-level spell slots into spell points.



Polymorph is great! Wasn't sure if you'd be down since it's a buff

That's true, it is a buff. However, shapeshifting into animals is in-theme with vampires, so I'm prepared to give it a pass (especially if my DM allows me to re-fluff the animals).


but here are some notes:
If you use it on yourself and get hit, there's a decent chance that you'll lose the spell. That is bad. If you're going to be in melee at all, War Caster is a great feat.

Twinning Poly is incredibly strong. It basically gives you a huge bucket of free health and a really strong channeled damage ability. Great for a last-ditch spell when you and the wizard are low on resources.

Good points there, though I'll come back to this at the end (since I've got a related question).



Polymorph synergizes with Quicken/Subtle, since with all three, you can chomp with your action and cast at the same time. Not really efficient, but spellcasting t-rex shadow beast!

Sadly, I don't think you can cast when Polymorphed, even with Subtle spell or such.



Disintegrate is very scary to use in that if the enemy saves... nothing happens. So twinning it is risky because you're essentially dumping 10 sp worth of spells into something that has a 25% chance of doing nothing. (Use it on creatures with low DEX saves, like a gelatinous cube) If there are two high-priority targets, it might be worth it, but in general with high level spells like this you are probably better off with Doggo.

Okay, I'll bear that in mind.



So, if you need to disengage like this, you can possibly use your darkness effect as an action and just walk away. You can also use misty step at equivalent cost and still have an action to spare.

Using quicken to get a disengage/dodge/etc. off is perfectly valid though. Just don't use it to throw out a cantrip.

Ah, you'll hate me for this, but quicken becomes a lot better by tenth level! :smallbiggrin: Seriously, you get a lot of spells with channeled effects like enervation. Quicken lets you slap someone with a tentacle as an action and then throw down a fireball with a bonus action. That said, this is not good if you aren't using channeled effects all that often.

No, I get what you mean. From 10th level, I'll have more spell points to play with and also some spells that will (hopefully) synergise better with Quicken - like the aforementioned Enervation.



Empower can be just plain awesome, depending on how many blasty spells you're using. It gets better with every level, too. If you're having trouble with friendly fire, careful does synergize well with things like hypnotic pattern. You already have heighten in the form of the doggo, and you basically have an additional metamagic in the form of the darkness, so you've really got your bases covered.

That's the nice thing about Shadow Sorcerer. So many metamagic options! You don't have to be nearly as specialized as, say, a draconic sorcerer.

Personally I would grab empower, since you have so many high-cost options as-is.

Interesting. Okay, I'll consider Empower as well. I'll probably wait and see how many damage spells I've got, and whether or not my role has changed.


I really like sorcerers.

:smallbiggrin:


Okay, so when I get to 4th level, I'm thinking that this will be my spell list:

Cantrips:
- Chill Touch
- Minor Illusion
- Prestidigitation
- Frostbite
- Booming Blade

Lv1:
- Mage Armour
- Ice Knife

Lv2:
- Suggestion
- Hold Person
- Misty Step

If my GM lets me change my metamagic, I'll have Twin and Subtle.

Also, my stats are:
Str 11
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 18

EDIT: My character also has the Mobile feat (we were allowed to pick a free feat at 1st level).

First question: Does that spell list look reasonable?

Second question, what do you think I should use my 4th level Ability Score Improvement for?
- +2 Dex?
- +2 Cha?
- A feat?

[Raif]

Okay, so when I get to 4th level, I'm thinking that this will be my spell list:

Cantrips:
- Chill Touch
- Minor Illusion
- Prestidigitation
- Frostbite
- Booming Blade

Lv1:
- Mage Armour
- Ice Knife

Lv2:
- Suggestion
- Hold Person
- Misty Step

If my GM lets me change my metamagic, I'll have Twin and Subtle.

Also, my stats are:
Str 11
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 18


First question: Does that spell list look reasonable?

Second question, what do you think I should use my 4th level Ability Score Improvement for?
- +2 Dex?
- +2 Cha?
- A feat?


Spell list looks great! Though what's the Booming Blade for? Planning on going into melee? Or for a "What if someone is too close" kind of thing? Otherwise I'd look at Ray of Frost and refluff it also.

Very fitting for the theme you went. Sorry my earlier suggestions weren't' exactly theme appropriate but Sorcerer has that issue so you need to refluff.

As for your ASI - definitely charisma, not dex. Dex, while good, will only increase your AC and initiative by 1, but your Charisma will do much more for you. It's much more important for you to have that at max.

If you were to consider a feat I'd say Warcaster or Alert (makes sense with the "supernatural senses of vampires" trope).

[Daphne]

Second question, what do you think I should use my 4th level Ability Score Improvement for?
- +2 Dex?
- +2 Cha?
- A feat?

I would increase CHA to 20 before taking any feat or increasing DEX.

[GorogIrongut]

Okay, so when I get to 4th level, I'm thinking that this will be my spell list:

Cantrips:
- Chill Touch Love this cantrip.
- Minor Illusion Another great Cantrip
- Prestidigitation Can be very useful
- Frostbite Fits your theme... but I'm not feeling it quite as much. I'd personally stick with Chill Touch, but that's just me.
- Booming Blade Your character description so far hasn't come across as a gish, which is why I'm not sure why you selected this cantrip.
Thunder doesn't fit your vampiric theme nor should your character be in combat often. I would swap for shocking grasp so you have a means of escaping combat

I'd like to put in as an honourable mention Shape Water. It fits your cold theme. Would give you lots of utility around water. And all you have to do is get your hands on a jug of endless water and you've got readily made difficult terrain.

Lv1:
- Mage Armour Good
- Ice Knife Also good. Very thematic. Later on though you'll want to swap it out.

Lv2:
- Suggestion All three of these are great... though one could argue that Suggestion can do a lot of things that Hold Person does and a LOT more. It's also just one save whereas HP saves every turn. Because of that, I would personally swap out Hold Person for one of the following:
Detect Thoughts, Invisibility, Levitate, Mirror Image or Web
- Hold Person
- Misty Step

If my GM lets me change my metamagic, I'll have Twin and Subtle.

Also, my stats are:
Str 11
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 18


First question: Does that spell list look reasonable? Definitely good.

Second question, what do you think I should use my 4th level Ability Score Improvement for?
- +2 Dex?
- +2 Cha? I would argue that the sooner you get to Charisma 20, the better.
- A feat?

Comments included in bold.

[Dr. Cliché]

Spell list looks great! Though what's the Booming Blade for? Planning on going into melee? Or for a "What if someone is too close" kind of thing?

Yeah, it's in case someone closes with me.

Something I completely forgot to mention is that my character has the Mobile feat. We were allowed to pick a free feat at 1st level (could be anything that didn't increase an ability score). I know it's not very useful for a sorcerer, but it fitted my character's personality. :smalltongue:

Anyway, it means she can use Booming Blade to hit a creature and then walk away without risking an opportunity attack, while the creature will suffer damage if it tries to follow her.



Very fitting for the theme you went. Sorry my earlier suggestions weren't' exactly theme appropriate but Sorcerer has that issue so you need to refluff.

No worries, advice is always welcome. :smallsmile:



As for your ASI - definitely charisma, not dex. Dex, while good, will only increase your AC and initiative by 1, but your Charisma will do much more for you. It's much more important for you to have that at max.


I would increase CHA to 20 before taking any feat or increasing DEX.

Okay, I'll improve my charisma this level. Thanks, guys.

[GorogIrongut]

Yeah, it's in case someone closes with me.

Something I completely forgot to mention is that my character has the Mobile feat. We were allowed to pick a free feat at 1st level (could be anything that didn't increase an ability score). I know it's not very useful for a sorcerer, but it fitted my character's personality. :smalltongue:

Anyway, it means she can use Booming Blade to hit a creature and then walk away without risking an opportunity attack, while the creature will suffer damage if it tries to follow her.


Booming Blade doesn't stop opportunity attacks. All it does is make it costly for someone to follow you. Being mobile, it'll be harder for them to follow you anyways. Shocking grasp on the other hand lets you disengage.

[Dr. Cliché]

Booming Blade doesn't stop opportunity attacks. All it does is make it costly for someone to follow you. Being mobile, it'll be harder for them to follow you anyways. Shocking grasp on the other hand lets you disengage.

Booming Blade doesn't stop opportunity attacks but the Mobile feat does.

[GorogIrongut]

Booming Blade doesn't stop opportunity attacks but the Mobile feat does.
Good call. Even though you were discussing Booming Blade I considered it a magical attack rather than a melee attack. I rescind my suggestion of Shocking Grasp.

[Dr. Cliché]

Good call. Even though you were discussing Booming Blade I considered it a magical attack rather than a melee attack. I rescind my suggestion of Shocking Grasp.

Thanks for your other advice, by the way. :smallsmile:

- Regarding Hold Person, I might try it and see how it goes. If it doesn't perform, I'll swap it out for something else.

- Regarding the Cantrips, I agree with you about Frostbite being a poor choice. However, I'm not sure about Shape Water either. Assuming I'm allowed to change it, what about either Friends or Ray of Frost?

[GorogIrongut]

Thanks for your other advice, by the way. :smallsmile:

- Regarding Hold Person, I might try it and see how it goes. If it doesn't perform, I'll swap it out for something else.

- Regarding the Cantrips, I agree with you about Frostbite being a poor choice. However, I'm not sure about Shape Water either. Assuming I'm allowed to change it, what about either Friends or Ray of Frost?

That's fine. I just happen to be a big fan of Mould Earth and Shape Water. I've found a lot of out of combat utility in them.

If your choice is between Friends and Ray of Frost, I'd go with Friends every time. That said, you get a LOT more in game utility if you use Friends in combination with Disguise Self. Throw in a bit of performing skill and you can go across town/the country convincing your enemies to hate each other just by acting like you're one of them and then playing them off each other. I love that rider about them automatically becoming hostile and seeking to attack or gain revenge against you. It's an automatic aggro push button.

[Raif]

Thanks for your other advice, by the way. :smallsmile:

- Regarding Hold Person, I might try it and see how it goes. If it doesn't perform, I'll swap it out for something else.

- Regarding the Cantrips, I agree with you about Frostbite being a poor choice. However, I'm not sure about Shape Water either. Assuming I'm allowed to change it, what about either Friends or Ray of Frost?

I personally LOVE hold person, especially on sorcerer. With your mobile feat and Booming Blade you can hold person and then quicken booming blade and run away for an auto crit while making room so they can't hit you anymore.

With a few melee partners hold person turns into an extremely powerful twinned option. Autocrits all around.

For the spells you've chosen I would honestly stay with both as they seriously fit that vampire theme. Suggestion for the "suggestive/seductive" nature to get what you want and Hold Person for those scenes where you see the vampire close in on its prey with it paralyzed with fear in the corner.

[Citan]

Do you think it's ever worth Twinning Enervation, or would that be wasting too many resources?

Okay, so when I get to 4th level, I'm thinking that this will be my spell list:

Cantrips:
- Chill Touch
- Minor Illusion
- Prestidigitation
- Frostbite
- Booming Blade

Lv1:
- Mage Armour
- Ice Knife

Lv2:
- Suggestion
- Hold Person
- Misty Step

If my GM lets me change my metamagic, I'll have Twin and Subtle.

Also, my stats are:
Str 11
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 18

EDIT: My character also has the Mobile feat (we were allowed to pick a free feat at 1st level).

First question: Does that spell list look reasonable?

Second question, what do you think I should use my 4th level Ability Score Improvement for?
- +2 Dex?
- +2 Cha?
- A feat?
Hey again ;=)

So, spells list seems great (good call on Booming Blade, but mainly because you got Mobile -so you have a benefit even on a miss-, otherwise, I would have advised as others to get Shocking Grasp instead).

As for ASI, contrarily to others, I would not increase CHA: you got 18 CHA already, which is a level most casters live with until lvl 8 (sometimes even 12) and have no problem with.

I'd really put one of those at top priority instead...
- Not Inspiring Leader (normally yes, but totally against your thematic).
- Magic Initiate: Wizard or Ritual Caster: Wizard (IIRC, you liked the idea of a familiar to hold a Darkness stone: beyond that, pick Initiate if you want utility cantrips, otherwise Ritual Caster).
- Warcaster: will be useful, from now and ever after, whether you use Darkness or any other great concentration spell you will get later.

Considering your extremely great stats (yeah, you can multiclass in everything, that's not small), I'd go with Warcaster right now (especially since you have Booming Blade), get at least up to Sorcerer 6, then either...
- All is fine, no problem surviving, no problem having fun >>> pure Sorcerer (max CHA at 8).
- I'm feeling a bit weak > Death Cleric 1: medium armor and shields (paired with Warcaster), ability to twin necrotic cantrips for free, Healing Words (refluff as internal "bag" of blood used for emergency drinks), Sanctuary (refluff as "Intimidating Gaze"), etc...
- I'm feeling a bit constrained in spells > whatever caster has spells you like.
- I like blasting things SO MUCH > Evoker Wizard 2.
- I want to be the one nobody can hit > Swashbuckler Rogue 3.
Etc...

[Dr. Cliché]

Hey again ;=)

Hey. :smallbiggrin:



So, spells list seems great (good call on Booming Blade, but mainly because you got Mobile -so you have a benefit even on a miss-, otherwise, I would have advised as others to get Shocking Grasp instead).

Yeah, if I didn't have Mobile, I'd definitely want Shocking Grasp for escaping Opportunity Attacks.



As for ASI, contrarily to others, I would not increase CHA: you got 18 CHA already, which is a level most casters live with until lvl 8 (sometimes even 12) and have no problem with.

I'd really put one of those at top priority instead...
- Not Inspiring Leader (normally yes, but totally against your thematic).
- Magic Initiate: Wizard or Ritual Caster: Wizard (IIRC, you liked the idea of a familiar to hold a Darkness stone: beyond that, pick Initiate if you want utility cantrips, otherwise Ritual Caster).
- Warcaster: will be useful, from now and ever after, whether you use Darkness or any other great concentration spell you will get later.

Interesting. I'll admit that Magic Initiate is tempting, simply because my character would probably appreciate a Familiar. In terms of the Cantrip, I could get Toll the Dead for flavour, though I'd have to cast it with Cha, so the DC would be a lot worse.


Considering your extremely great stats (yeah, you can multiclass in everything, that's not small), I'd go with Warcaster right now (especially since you have Booming Blade)

Warcaster is probably the best choice, mechanically. My only concern is whether it fits in with my character's fluff/personality.


get at least up to Sorcerer 6, then either...
- All is fine, no problem surviving, no problem having fun >>> pure Sorcerer (max CHA at 8).
- I'm feeling a bit weak > Death Cleric 1: medium armor and shields (paired with Warcaster), ability to twin necrotic cantrips for free, Healing Words (refluff as internal "bag" of blood used for emergency drinks), Sanctuary (refluff as "Intimidating Gaze"), etc...
- I'm feeling a bit constrained in spells > whatever caster has spells you like.
- I like blasting things SO MUCH > Evoker Wizard 2.
- I want to be the one nobody can hit > Swashbuckler Rogue 3.
Etc...

Thanks, I'll refer back to these when we reach level 6.

[strangebloke]

You cannot cast as a beast, even with Subtle, because you lose your spellcasting ability while you're polymorphed. You do not even retain War Caster, unless the beast you morph into also has War Caster.

It's a good buff on others. It's also a good debuff (turn enemies into actual worms for 1 hour as you monologue). But it's not a stellar self-buff except for when you need the temp HP.


Right, you're quite correct about that. Don't know where my head is.