Barbarian Capstone Question

[Khrysaes]

So the barbarian capstone increase STR and CON by 4 chaning max from 20 to 24.

But what if you have used a tome of fitness and health or the strength one. Does it increase the cap to 26?

If so, since the tomes specifically mention not being able to go past 30, would the barbarian capstone then allow your STR and CON to go past 30? By RAW no..

I know this is unfeasible because it would require 5 tomes of at least one type. But the first question is a possibility.

[Mikal]

So the barbarian capstone increase STR and CON by 4 chaning max from 20 to 24.

But what if you have used a tome of fitness and health or the strength one. Does it increase the cap to 26?

If so, since the tomes specifically mention not being able to go past 30, would the barbarian capstone then allow your STR and CON to go past 30? By RAW no..

I know this is unfeasible because it would require 5 tomes of at least one type. But the first question is a possibility.

It would increase to 26 yes.
30 however is a hard cap, so nothing official can raise it past that stat. Even if you got like, 10 tomes somehow.

[Khrysaes]

It would increase to 26 yes.
30, however, is a hard cap, so nothing official can raise it past that stat. Even if you got like, 10 tomes somehow.

Is there a mention of these in the books or sage advice somewhere? Because reading the barbarian it just says the maximum is now 24. so if you had 22 before hand, the class feature still says the max is 24.

I would rule to agree that it should be 26 if a tome was applied before level 20, but.

[nickl_2000]

Is there a mention of these in the books or sage advice somewhere? Because reading the barbarian it just says the maximum is now 24. so if you had 22 before hand, the class feature still says the max is 24.

I would rule to agree that it should be 26 if a tome was applied before level 20, but.

I'm pretty sure RAW says that the max would be 24 since it specific, whereas the time is more general. However, logic would dictate that it would be 26. Any DM giving you a tome and getting all the way to level 20 knows what they are getting into.

[Mikal]

Is there a mention of these in the books or sage advice somewhere? Because reading the barbarian it just says the maximum is now 24. so if you had 22 before hand, the class feature still says the max is 24.

I would rule to agree that it should be 26 if a tome was applied before level 20, but.

You're looking in the wrong area.
Your natural cap for Str and Con become 24 as a barbarian in addition to your strength and con increasing by 4. This is now your natural maximum.
The magic item increases your natural cap by 2, up to the hard cap of 30.
In other words, your natural max is always X (20, 24 as a Barb), and the book makes your new max X+2.

[Foxhound438]

You're looking in the wrong area.
Your natural cap for Str and Con become 24 as a barbarian in addition to your strength and con increasing by 4. This is now your natural maximum.
The magic item increases your natural cap by 2, up to the hard cap of 30.
In other words, your natural max is always X (20, 24 as a Barb), and the book makes your new max X+2.

this is how I read it. I can definitely see the argument for the other way, but I think it would be pretty ****ty to give your player a magic item one week and then the next rule that it's absolutely useless and ultimately does nothing for them. It'd be like giving a player a flametongue and then using nothing but red dragons for the rest of the campaign.

[pdegan2814]

Nothing in the Barbarian capstone lets your Str and Con scores go above 24. The actual scores get a +4, but the new max is a fixed value, not a +X. If you read the Manual Of Bodily Health or Manual Of Gainful Exercise AFTER hitting Level 20, then your max for that stat would go up to 26.

[nickl_2000]

this is how I read it. I can definitely see the argument for the other way, but I think it would be pretty ****ty to give your player a magic item one week and then the next rule that it's absolutely useless and ultimately does nothing for them. It'd be like giving a player a flametongue and then using nothing but red dragons for the rest of the campaign.

That would be like a company giving a 15 year old kid a $.15/hour raise a week before the minimum wage for the state raised $.15/hour. That kid certainly would still be slightly bitter about that even now that he is in his thirties...

[Mikal]

Nothing in the Barbarian capstone lets your Str and Con scores go above 24. The actual scores get a +4, but the new max is a fixed value, not a +X. If you read the Manual Of Bodily Health or Manual Of Gainful Exercise AFTER hitting Level 20, then your max for that stat would go up to 26.

Again you're focusing on the incorrect part. Barb sets your natural cap at 24 and adds +4 to Str and Con.
The Manual increases your natural cap and increases your Str by +2, stacking.
It doesn't matter when it's read, it still raises your natural cap, whatever it is, by 2. So prior to level 20 barb? That's 22. At level 20 barb? It's 26.
The wording on the manual and other +2 stat items say they increase your max by 2, while the barbarian ability sets your max to 24 from 20. Ergo, your max becomes 24 (Barb)+2 (item)= 26.

This isn't a case of specific vs, general because these are two different effects, i.e. one item increases your max by 2, the other sets your max to 24. Since the item that increases your max does not actually state it has a ceiling (except the hard ceiling of 30), then they stack.

[bid]

Again you're focusing on the incorrect part. Barb sets your natural cap at 24 and adds +4 to Str and Con.
The Manual increases your natural cap and increases your Str by +2, stacking.
It doesn't matter when it's read, it still raises your natural cap, whatever it is, by 2. So prior to level 20 barb? That's 22. At level 20 barb? It's 26.
The wording on the manual and other +2 stat items say they increase your max by 2, while the barbarian ability sets your max to 24 from 20. Ergo, your max becomes 24 (Barb)+2 (item)= 26.
You are making a leap of logic that isn't there. As valid as adding a shield to barksin.

Believing Str26 is the One True Interpretation is nonsense. I even think it might be the weaker one.
- If the book is an immediate magic effect that permanently changes your max Str, then your Str22 cap is replaced by a Str24 cap at level 20.
- If the book is a continuous magic effect that increases your max Str by 2, then your Str22 cap is replaced by a Str26 cap at level 20. But, since magic effects do not stack, reading 2 such books would not increase Str further.

I'm pretty sure which interpretation fighters and paladin would prefer.
Just modify the RAW barbarian capstone, it's safer than making a sweeping change that affect all classes.

[Talamare]

Well, I mean to be 100% straight...

The Capstone itself is arguably already broken
It increases your stats first THEN raises your maximum

They are in 2 separate sentences too, unlike the single sentence used in the various Tomes.

but yea, regardless of what might be the exact RAW version. The 'reasonable' version that doesn't lead to people assuming that its just stupid...
Is that you're now at 26.

[Greywander]

But if you're already 20th level, how are you going to get more ASIs anyway? If epic boons are allowed, there's a variant rule that allows you to take ASIs (or feats) instead of boons, but this specifically allows you to raise ability scores to 30.

Are there any other ways to permanently increase ability scores without gaining a level?

[Lombra]

If you read the manual before getting the capstone then no, RAW, your cap will still be 24. Paradoxally if you read the manual 3 times to get 26 strength and then get to 20th level you would lower your strength score to 24, that's clearly not RAI, but if you were to read the manual after the capstone, you will indeed increase your maximum to 26.