Giving players HD for background.

[Feddlefew]

I'm toying with the idea of giving my players' characters 4+con extra HP at level 1, which is equivalent to the health of a commoner with the same stats as the PC. Since 5e characters get proficiencies and an ability from their backgrounds, why not give them a little more health to go along with it? A HD for level 0, if you will.

Pros:
1) Reduces the risk of PCs being one-hit KO'd during the first two or three levels, which lets me (the DM) set up more interesting encounters.
2) Less frustrating for new players (see point 1).
3) The extra HP quickly become meaningless, meaning that this won't unbalance the late game.
4) Makes starting at level one less daunting.

Cons:
1) If I give this to PCs, I'm semi obligated to give it to NPCs too.
2) Decreases the grittiness of the early game.
3) Tips the favor of the early game towards PCs.
4) Abilities which effect creatures by HD become weaker, although those are rare in 5e.

Thoughts?

[hymer]

Thoughts?

I like it. I wouldn't give another con bonus, though. Con is incentivised enough, I think. I'd rather just give them 5 hp.
In my current groups I wouldn't do it. I have a few players with dyslexia, who are distinctly rattled by the thought of writing a backstory. It wouldn't be fair to them. But without that, I'd be very tempted to steal this idea for myself.

[Unoriginal]

I think giving more HPs at the start is not a great idea. It's basically saying "this is easy mode" and it might give the impression you're not going to challenge them.


Also additional HP is never meaningless.


In any case, you're certainly not obligated to give it to NPCs too.

[Talamare]

I support it

You're insanely limited in the fun you can have at level 1 because of how insignificant your health is.

Granting everyone an additional 'kick' of health will allow you to really challenge your players with tougher fights!

I really liked how in 4e players starting HP would literally be their Con + Class Bonus

Note, not Con Modifier
Literal Total Con + Class Bonus

If ported to 5e, I would grant the Modifier too

A 16 Con Dwarven Barbarian, would start with 16 + 3 + 1 + 1d12(7) = 27 HP
A 8 Con Wizard, would start with 8 - 1 + 1d6(4) = 11 HP

Someone reasonable in the middle, say
A 12 Con Rogue, would start with 12 + 1 + 1d8(5) = 18 HP
A 14 Con Ranger, would start with 14 + 2 + 1d10(6) = 22 HP

[JackPhoenix]

I support it

You're insanely limited in the fun you can have at level 1 because of how insignificant your health is.

Granting everyone an additional 'kick' of health will allow you to really challenge your players with tougher fights!

I really liked how in 4e players starting HP would literally be their Con + Class Bonus

Note, not Con Modifier
Literal Total Con + Class Bonus

If ported to 5e, I would grant the Modifier too

A 16 Con Dwarven Barbarian, would start with 16 + 3 + 1 + 1d12(7) = 27 HP
A 8 Con Wizard, would start with 8 - 1 + 1d6(4) = 11 HP

Someone reasonable in the middle, say
A 12 Con Rogue, would start with 12 + 1 + 1d8(5) = 18 HP
A 14 Con Ranger, would start with 14 + 2 + 1d10(6) = 22 HP

Unlike 5e, however, 4e was built with the assumption that starter characters would have those extra HP, and the combat math worked with that. In 5e, it's straight up power boost with no counterbalance.

What's the point of starting at level 1 if you don't want to face the challenge of being level 1? Just start the campaign at level 3 or so.

[Talamare]

Unlike 5e, however, 4e was built with the assumption that starter characters would have those extra HP, and the combat math worked with that. In 5e, it's straight up power boost with no counterbalance.

What's the point of starting at level 1 if you don't want to face the challenge of being level 1? Just start the campaign at level 3 or so.

The DM is the counter balance

[Unoriginal]

The DM is the counter balance

How? By sending more monsters?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also additional HP is never meaningless.
It's never truely meaningless, but as you advance in level, it becomes a smaller and smaller proportion of your total hit points-- 4/10 hit points is a lot, 4/40 less so, and 4/100 hardly matters. (The same is also true of damage-- that might represent an entire hit or two from a goblin, but gets lost in the natural variability of an adult dragon's breath weapon)

It's not a terrible idea. As with all things that affect the whole party equally, it's easy enough to compensate for as a GM. You'll probably wind up running slightly harder encounters, with the extra hit points primarily being a useful buffer against surprise crits that are the bane of a 1st level character's existence.

[Feddlefew]

Unlike 5e, however, 4e was built with the assumption that starter characters would have those extra HP, and the combat math worked with that. In 5e, it's straight up power boost with no counterbalance.

What's the point of starting at level 1 if you don't want to face the challenge of being level 1? Just start the campaign at level 3 or so.

I've found new players (as in never-played-tabletops-ever) have enough to wrap their head around at level 1, and plopping them in at level 3 brings the game to a screeching halt. It already works pretty well for 3.5- I just give everyone toughness as a free feat. I find 3 extra HP give just enough wiggle room for me to build better noob dungeons without letting players breeze through.

There's also the fact that many low-level 5e monsters are substantially more dangerous than their 3.5 equivalents. For instance, a hobgoblin and two goblins (around CR 1 in both editions) in close quarters have gone from a tough but fair encounter for a level 1 party to a life-threatening one, since the hobgoblin has the potential to deal an extra 2d6 damage every round until it or both goblins are taken out, and goblins can disengage every round. It's a tactically interesting fight, but it has the potential to go south very, very fast. A little extra HP decreases the chance that a PC could die from a lucky hit from the Hobgoblin.

[Davrix]

This is something I've been tinkering with myself for my group. But I was going a little deeper into the idea and using the 3.5 DMG and NPC levels as my inspiration.

Now granted I do sort of like the gritty first few levels of 5th ed and if your in that type of world or its how you want to play that's cool don't change a thing.

But for those of us who want to feel just a bit more empowered at the start and as a DM throw some cooler combats at the low lv party without having TO much fear of killing them, this is a good idea.

I havn't finished flushing the idea out but the rough grasp of it was to add a small leveling system to the background choices. Giving the DM to scale up or down how much of a buff he wants to give the party, or to reward good backstory at the start of the game.

For example I will use the Solder Background for this.

1D6 per lv no con bonus and these do not count as healing HD think of them as fluff levels - Max 5 levels

1st Lv - Gain +1 to your con sv or str sv only
2nd Lv - Gain proficiency in one martial weapon of your choice
3rd Lv - Gain proficiency in survival
4th Lv - Gain +1 to either str / con / Int
5th Lv - Gain 1 feat from the following choices. Sentinel - War Caster - Shield Master - Savage attacker

The goal for me wasn't just offering more HP but in the case of my games I tend to prefer my players running off the base stat array but I now how some feel that leads to a sense of everyone being the same. And keep in mind this is off the cuff right now. Ive been toying with the idea and this topic simply reminded me of it. But I do feel like it offers just enough empowerment combined with the base stat array to not break the game and should encourage players to think more on their backstory.

Oh one thing to note about balance wise. Under this system I wouldn't be allowing the human variant rule most likely to avoid giving someone 2 feats at lv 1

[Eric Diaz]

Why not start at level 2?

[Contrast]

Why not start at level 2?

I don't have any real objections but this was my first though too (it obv makes things easier but that's on you and your table to weigh up). The game has an inbuilt solution to not being as squishy as a level 1 character. It's called 'not being a level 1 character'.

[Feddlefew]

I don't have any real objections but this was my first though too (it obv makes things easier but that's on you and your table to weigh up). The game has an inbuilt solution to not being as squishy as a level 1 character. It's called 'not being a level 1 character'.

It doesn't actually solve the problem, which is "level one characters are too fragile". The thing I think you're forgetting is that 5e's first three levels are a different beast than in 3.X, since they're designed to train new players by gradually introducing the basics abilities of that class so that newbies have a chance to learn the system without getting overwhelmed with options.

There is nothing I'd rather avoid more than trying to walk someone who's never played (or only played once) through building a character and then immediately leveling that character, especially if it's over something easily avoided by slapping a few extra HP on.

And yes, I do have premade characters on hand. I find building characters with people helps them get the hang of the system faster and makes the entire experience more enjoyable.

[Davrix]

It doesn't actually solve the problem, which is "level one characters are too fragile". The thing I think you're forgetting is that 5e's first three levels are a different beast than in 3.X, since they're designed to train new players by gradually introducing the basics abilities of that class so that newbies have a chance to learn the system without getting overwhelmed with options.

There is nothing I'd rather avoid more than trying to walk someone who's never played (or only played once) through building a character and then immediately leveling that character, especially if it's over something easily avoided by slapping a few extra HP on.

And yes, I do have premade characters on hand. I find building characters with people helps them get the hang of the system faster and makes the entire experience more enjoyable.

The simple solution is to simply tack on an extra HD + con based on whatever class they chose or simply say everyone gets an extra D something + con and your issue should be ok. Or simply do what i do with new players. Write down there HP totals and AC and make sure when your picking monsters you adjust how hard they can hit them either on the fly or before the session. Lucky crits though are a thing and should not be taken out of the equation.

[Eric Diaz]

It doesn't actually solve the problem, which is "level one characters are too fragile". The thing I think you're forgetting is that 5e's first three levels are a different beast than in 3.X, since they're designed to train new players by gradually introducing the basics abilities of that class so that newbies have a chance to learn the system without getting overwhelmed with options.

There is nothing I'd rather avoid more than trying to walk someone who's never played (or only played once) through building a character and then immediately leveling that character, especially if it's over something easily avoided by slapping a few extra HP on.

And yes, I do have premade characters on hand. I find building characters with people helps them get the hang of the system faster and makes the entire experience more enjoyable.

Well, I don't see a problem with extra HD then, or giving them max HP at level 1, and so on. If I were to do that I would give no extra HP on level 2 and play the game RAW form level 3, but that is just me.

[Davrix]

Well, I don't see a problem with extra HD then, or giving them max HP at level 1, and so on. If I were to do that I would give no extra HP on level 2 and play the game RAW form level 3, but that is just me.

uhhh don't you get max HP at lv 1 anyway or am I having a blond moment?

[Eric Diaz]

uhhh don't you get max HP at lv 1 anyway or am I having a blond moment?

Yeah, my mistake, I was thinking of B/X.

[Davrix]

Yeah, my mistake, I was thinking of B/X.

Ah well simple solution, double the max HP at lv 1, that shouldn't break things to much and should pad things out just enough not to get Ko'ed on by two attacks usually as a caster.

[Unoriginal]

I've found new players (as in never-played-tabletops-ever) have enough to wrap their head around at level 1, and plopping them in at level 3 brings the game to a screeching halt. It already works pretty well for 3.5- I just give everyone toughness as a free feat. I find 3 extra HP give just enough wiggle room for me to build better noob dungeons without letting players breeze through.


Level 1 characters should be squishy, that's the point of level 1.

If you REALLY want to avoid that, just give them their lvl 2 HPs form the start, and don't make them gain HPs when they go from lvl 1 to 2.



There's also the fact that many low-level 5e monsters are substantially more dangerous than their 3.5 equivalents. For instance, a hobgoblin and two goblins (around CR 1 in both editions) in close quarters have gone from a tough but fair encounter for a level 1 party to a life-threatening one, since the hobgoblin has the potential to deal an extra 2d6 damage every round until it or both goblins are taken out, and goblins can disengage every round. It's a tactically interesting fight, but it has the potential to go south very, very fast. A little extra HP decreases the chance that a PC could die from a lucky hit from the Hobgoblin.

Hobgoblin: 100 XP

Goblin: 50 XP

Total XP for the encounter: 200, x2 because there is three monsters= 400 xp

5 level 1's encounter budget: Hard 300 xp, Deadly 500 xp.

I'd say a small risk to go down from a lucky hit is appropriate for such an encounter.

[Gryndle]

what I did for the current group of PCs my group is running is this: they started at 1st level. but I went ahead and gave them their 2nd level HP rolls (and con mod) as well, with the understanding that they did not gain any more HP for reaching 2nd level. this gave them a bit more durability in the beginning, but was evened out as soon as they hit 2nd level.

[Feddlefew]

While I appreciate that some people like gritty low-level games where PCs are playing rocket tag with monsters, that's not the kind of game I or my players enjoy playing, especially not when more than half the group has never played D&D before.



Hobgoblin: 100 XP

Goblin: 50 XP

Total XP for the encounter: 200, x2 because there is three monsters= 400 xp

5 level 1's encounter budget: Hard 300 xp, Deadly 500 xp.

I'd say a small risk to go down from a lucky hit is appropriate for such an encounter.

Ah, sorry. My usual party size is usually around 6 (Including the co-DM's PC), which changes the math around a little. It's a medium difficulty encounter for a party of 6.

[Contrast]

The thing I think you're forgetting is that 5e's first three levels are a different beast than in 3.X, since they're designed to train new players by gradually introducing the basics abilities of that class so that newbies have a chance to learn the system without getting overwhelmed with options.

I do take on board what you're saying (I'm honestly of the opinion that there isn't much point in anyone who had played before ever playing anything less than a level 3 character - as you say levels 1 and 2 are really just training wheels) but is level 2 really that much more complicated than level 1?

If I was really that worried about smoothing out the level 1 new player experience I would probably just have all enemies deal 1 damage no matter what at level 1 (particularly given level 1 is likely to last all of 1 session in most circumstances).

[Unoriginal]

Ah, sorry. My usual party size is usually around 6 (Including the co-DM's PC), which changes the math around a little. It's a medium difficulty encounter for a party of 6.

Fair enough. Anyway, it's true the hobgoblin hits pretty hard for their CR when they have allies.

Which is good. Hobgoblins are masters of war, and PCs fighting one at low level for the first time should be a "holy boop, there's tough guys in this game" moment.

[Talamare]

Extremely soft PCs means that the DM basically has to go soft or it's a party wipe

More than a few Wolves can easily lead to a party wipe, since 1 or 2 decent rolls means anyone dies. Which leads to a cascade of death.

Do you want to try something interesting?
How about an ambush, where a monster is hiding besides a trap ready to attack as soon as the trap is sprung (or the pcs try to disable)... yea, that's probably a party wipe
Maybe you're fighting 2 Goblins who are smart enough to use hit and run tactics?... yea, there is a good chance that's a party wipe

and why are we having to suffer this inane start, because it's meant to be "gritty" and "difficult"
Except that its not
The DM is forced to throw such insanely easy stuff or risk wiping the party that it becomes the easiest and most boring levels around.

I remember once the we saw 2 Gnolls feasting on a dead wolf, so we attacked them. Well, a few bad rolls (aka party wipe), "uh an Arrow flies from the Trees and kills the 2 Gnolls, a Hunter revives everyone, and then goes off on his way."

[Requilac]

What I have always done when introducing new players to the game (I have ran two different tables which both consisted of mostly newbies) is that I start their characters at level 1 but they have the maximum hit points and hit dice of a level 2 character. When they transition from level 1 to 2, do not increase their health at all, as they already technically have the health they should have at that level before they leveled up. I have used this in play and I guarantee that it works fine and does enhance the quality of the game. Players should feel challenged, but having a character die during the first round of combat regardless of how effective their startegy is kind of disappointing. Unless, of course, you are specifically playing in a difficult game with high character lethality (Tomb of Horrors style), than his system does not quite work. You do not appear to be playing such a game though so I do recommend doing this. You can still challenge them even if they have higher health, it is not going to make it seem like you are pulling punches. At least, in my experience it doesn’t, but I suppose your mileage may vary. Hope I have helped.

[Unoriginal]

Extremely soft PCs means that the DM basically has to go soft or it's a party wipe

More than a few Wolves can easily lead to a party wipe, since 1 or 2 decent rolls means anyone dies. Which leads to a cascade of death.

Do you want to try something interesting?
How about an ambush, where a monster is hiding besides a trap ready to attack as soon as the trap is sprung (or the pcs try to disable)... yea, that's probably a party wipe
Maybe you're fighting 2 Goblins who are smart enough to use hit and run tactics?... yea, there is a good chance that's a party wipe

and why are we having to suffer this inane start, because it's meant to be "gritty" and "difficult"
Except that its not
The DM is forced to throw such insanely easy stuff or risk wiping the party that it becomes the easiest and most boring levels around.

I remember once the we saw 2 Gnolls feasting on a dead wolf, so we attacked them. Well, a few bad rolls (aka party wipe), "uh an Arrow flies from the Trees and kills the 2 Gnolls, a Hunter revives everyone, and then goes off on his way."

Level 1's supposed to last only a few fights for a reason.

[Talamare]

Level 1's supposed to last only a few fights for a reason.

Is the reason so that everyone is bored?