PDA

View Full Version : Letting Players Pick their Age?



calebcom
2007-08-22, 04:40 PM
Do you let your players pick their age? Or do you force them to roll it?

I ask because one of my players wants to play a Sun Elf Wizard and I use the point buy system.

so he wants to put 18 in INT + 2 from Sun Elf and then he wants to be venerable adding 3 more int making a starting int of 23.

To top it off he wants to take the feat from Forgotten realms that adds 2 to your caster stat only for the purposes of casting. Making his starting INT 25 for casting purposes 23 for other purposes.

Sun Elves being from forgotten realms and having a rediculously long venerable age of soemthing like 10d100, IE more than enough for most campaigns.

Behold_the_Void
2007-08-22, 04:43 PM
Why is a venerable sun elf wizard level 1?

Honestly, I tend to require 1st level characters to be no older than middle-aged under specific circumstances. In this case, the player seems to be pretty obviously trying to power game. I like to let players pick their age, but if they abuse that right then I smack them with DMG.

Krellen
2007-08-22, 04:44 PM
Do you support powergaming? If so, let him do it.

If not, tell him he has to be a young adult like most 1st level characters, because a 500-year old first level wizard makes no sense to you.

Storm Bringer
2007-08-22, 04:45 PM
I'd say if you're happy with the crunch elements of it, then let him choose the character's age. if you're unhappy with the crunch, say no on those terms.

are you happy with him having a int25 elf? If not, tell him so.

Sir Jason
2007-08-22, 04:50 PM
Personally, I would think a Wizard with 17 + spell level DCs at level 1 or so would make the game too easy: noone would have fun anymore. I think it would be best to discourage this sort of powergaming.

calebcom
2007-08-22, 04:53 PM
The biggest problem I have is that the melee is already not as baddass as batman(wizard) and I'm thinking that letting him arbitrarily up his stats like that will hurt my melee's feelings even more.

I think I'd be more likely to allow a sorc to pull it off than a wizard.

It is a good point that a 1st level wizard shouldn't be more than 1k years old..

Last I checked sun elves lived over 1k years before venerable. Though I could be wrong.

blue_fenix
2007-08-22, 04:56 PM
Take advantage of the fact that he'll have a cumulative -6 on str, dex, and con due to being venerable (yes, the -1, -2, and -3 stack). Force him to calculate how much he's carrying and enforce the heavy load rules. Have something grapple him (low str) or just one-shot him (low con). That's the thing about heavy min/max-ing. Sure he's got max int, but there's always that min in there somewhere to trip you up.

Behold_the_Void
2007-08-22, 04:56 PM
In that case I'd say definitely not. Doesn't really work for a Sorcerer either, their powers tend to manifest fairly early (and I'd keep it that way for consistency's sake and to avoid this guy pulling more cheese, not that he won't try from what we've seen here already).

What kind of a party are you looking at anyway? If this guy is the only one who powergames like that you may be in for a rough time.

Neon Knight
2007-08-22, 04:59 PM
Iit should be noted that most NPCs are Level 1 their whole lives. An 100 year old character being level 1 isn't that strange, at least according to core.

But the aging rules in general are really just power gaming for anyone who needs mental stats.

I usually let players pick their age. But then again, I give no benefit or penalty for aging.

calebcom
2007-08-22, 05:01 PM
He's the only one in the group with any experience playing D&D other than myself.

My dilemma is that my group is horribly stupid in most things, and I consistantly have to tone down encounters for them. They nearly died to a swarm of beetles, spending 6 rounds uselessly hacking at the beetles with swords and axes.

Him being a little overpowered may balance out the party, he doesn't force the others to make decisions and he's anti PK... but I don't want him oneshotting everything on his own.

Behold_the_Void
2007-08-22, 05:02 PM
Take advantage of the fact that he'll have a cumulative -6 on str, dex, and con due to being venerable (yes, the -1, -2, and -3 stack). Force him to calculate how much he's carrying and enforce the heavy load rules. Have something grapple him (low str) or just one-shot him (low con). That's the thing about heavy min/max-ing. Sure he's got max int, but there's always that min in there somewhere to trip you up.

That's actually a good point, especially at 1st level where the wizard's tricks are severely limited. I believe Sun Elves have something like +2 dex and int, -2 con and strength, correct?

He won't be able to lift a thing and he'll be sitting pretty at 1-2 hp. And will likely be increasing at 1 hp per level.

Basically, a stiff breeze will knock him down. And that won't ever change.

JadedDM
2007-08-22, 05:04 PM
I, personally, let my players choose to either roll or pick. If they choose an older age in the hopes of getting an INT/WIS bonus, that's fine. Because they suffer a STR/DEX/CON penalty in return. Like Blue Fenix said, just make sure you enforce that penalty and it should balance out fine.

blue_fenix
2007-08-22, 05:05 PM
My dilemma is that my group is horribly stupid in most things, and I consistantly have to tone down encounters for them. They nearly died to a swarm of beetles, spending 6 rounds uselessly hacking at the beetles with swords and axes.

Did you tell them they were doing no damage?

Sir Jason
2007-08-22, 05:06 PM
I think that blue fenix has it right: let him do it, then show him why a 1000 year old elf doesn't make a very good new adventurer. We had someone who tried this in our party (powergamer) and its funny that the party barbarian (me) could one hit KO him with a grapple check... well, funny to me anywho...

Trust me, its best not to refuse him outright, but rather let him discover for himself that 'this is why NOT to do that'.

calebcom
2007-08-22, 05:16 PM
Did you tell them they were doing no damage?

Yes, I repeatedly said. "Your Attacks seem to have no affect on the swarm, you crush 1 or 2 of the 2000 bugs."

I don't like saying "You do 10 damage" I just tell them whether they land a blow or whether it was ineffective in some way.

Like when they fought a werewolf "Most of your blow seems to heal immediately" to represent the silver DR

blue_fenix
2007-08-22, 05:18 PM
Yes, I repeatedly said. "Your Attacks seem to have no affect on the swarm, you crush 1 or 2 of the 2000 bugs."

I don't like saying "You do 10 damage" I just tell them whether they land a blow or whether it was ineffective in some way.

Like when they fought a werewolf "Most of your blow seems to heal immediately" to represent the silver DR

Ok, then it's their fault. I just wanted to make sure.

Accersitus
2007-08-22, 05:29 PM
You could tell him to play the char, but remind him that when his char dies of old age doesn't have to rely on what he rolls on some die. (Most people doesn't know their own lifespan, unless they use lots of divination magic. So he could sweat a bit each time you tell the party they will be spending the next 6 months traveling somewhere and reminding him that his char has half a year less left to live) You are the DM, and you should let them choose an age category to be in but not exactly where in the category they are, that will maybe take his INT down to 24, and give him some more STR, DEX, CON to make him survive a bit longer.

Logic
2007-08-22, 05:31 PM
Do you let your players pick their age? Or do you force them to roll it?

I ask because one of my players wants to play a Sun Elf Wizard and I use the point buy system.

so he wants to put 18 in INT + 2 from Sun Elf and then he wants to be venerable adding 3 more int making a starting int of 23.

To top it off he wants to take the feat from Forgotten realms that adds 2 to your caster stat only for the purposes of casting. Making his starting INT 25 for casting purposes 23 for other purposes.

Sun Elves being from forgotten realms and having a rediculously long venerable age of soemthing like 10d100, IE more than enough for most campaigns.
If he wants to be in the venerable age category, then you pick the age, as well as his "death by old age date." Tell him that his character knows he shouldn't be adventuring, as he is FRAIL and wise enough to know better. From a roleplaying perspective, this player's idea makes no sense.

LotharBot
2007-08-22, 05:35 PM
He sounds like an incompetent powergamer. What's he going to have, like 4 dex and 2 con? It doesn't matter that the save DC on most of his spells will be high, because he won't be able to live through a single magic missile from an enemy spellcaster, even at level 3 or 4.

MandibleBones
2007-08-22, 05:35 PM
A good idea, and one that might turn his game into a MAD RUSH toward lichdom. Actually, that could make a pretty neat story.

"I was happy in my garden for over a thousand years, until one day I realized that my days were numbered and the number in question wasn't even in the quadruple digits! Now I brave arthritis and pointy objects in a quest to live forever through PHENOMINAL ARCANE POWER!"

"Dude, you're level 1."

"Better late then never, right? And I'm the smartest Elf on Faerun. If anyone can pull it off, I can."

North
2007-08-22, 05:39 PM
That would actually be pretty funny. Sure hes got a 25int for casting but a stiff breeze knocks him out and he cant even carry his staff and dress properly. Then give him arthritis or somethin lol.

Yechezkiel
2007-08-22, 05:47 PM
I think this is just my crew's house rule, but we only apply the aging changes if characters pass those marks during the game.

If a player wants to create a character middle-aged or older, the stats he starts with are just the stats he ended up with at that point in his life. It seems fair to all the players.

MandibleBones
2007-08-22, 05:51 PM
My general point is that the question shouldn't be "can he have the crunch because of the fluff," the question should be "does he have the fluff to justify the crunch." With any system of merits and flaws (which the aging system is, and as someone who loves-the-cleric, I wouldn't start older than middle aged even on point buy just because of the horrendous penalties), the questions for the player should be "Am I comfortable with the penalties I'm taking to gain these benefits," as well as "Am I willing to roleplay the downside of my formidable intellect?"

As a DM, I'd say play up the "dusk years of your life" aspect (Dragon had a good article a few months back about playing characters who have lived such a long time - if you can find it, take a look), both in and out of game.

In game, let him know that the breeze is especially cold; he can feel it in his old bones. Let him be more shaken by that ghoul in the corner, even as an elf, because he knows he doesn't have much time left. Out of game, roll some dice behind the screen and look at him. Occasionally shake your head knowingly. Most of the tips from Heroes of Horror can play well into a good RP experience for an aging character.

Get the other players in on it, too - make sure the young whippershappers refer to him as "old man," or wake him up in the middle of the night to ask where babies come from and if he can explain THAC0 to them.

In the end, yes, he's power-gaming - but if he's willing to accept the crunchy and fluffy consequences of that action, what's the problem?

...

And suggest he take the Toughness feat, at every level he can.

Ruerl
2007-08-22, 06:00 PM
If you allow it be sure to take the In Character consequences of it, to put it simply:

You are an old old sun elf and only progressed this far? ...So... your an incompetent old sun elf that has spendt at least five centuries doing exactly what?

Having a character with that age to get that stat is fine, just be sure to ridicule him IC'ly for it, because he just choose to play a loser who never got anywhere with his life :smallwink:

IC ridiculing can be a very effective deterrent for a player pulling such a trick in the future, and if he complains well... he picked the race and age so its his own faulth -point that out to him too, and do so *before* the first session, if he was aware of it before the game started, well then he forfeited all rights for complaining about it afterwards. :smallsmile:

Regards

Ruerl

Saph
2007-08-22, 06:07 PM
Seriously, this is just an awful idea. He's going to have outrageously high save DCs for his spells, but he'll have -6 Str, -6 Dex, and -8 Con. Even with a 14 in Constitution, that's going to give him a Con of 6. He'll have a starting HP of 2, and will have maybe 7 HP by level 5.

If you're worried about him dominating the game - don't. Just don't. Yes, wizards at high levels are devastating. But at level 1, they frankly suck, and that's before stacking such a horrific set of ability penalties on them. Unless you are really, really generous to him, there is no way he is going to survive long enough to get any real mileage out of that 25 Int. Sooner or later something will smack him (or maybe just breathe on him a bit too hard) and he'll fall down dead.

I mean, with his 1st-level feat slot tied up (so no Toughness) he's going to have a starting HP of what? 1? 2? Forget fighting goblins - he's going to be in danger from rats, cats, ravens, and small woodland animals.

- Saph

dyslexicfaser
2007-08-22, 06:41 PM
A good idea, and one that might turn his game into a MAD RUSH toward lichdom. Actually, that could make a pretty neat story.

"I was happy in my garden for over a thousand years, until one day I realized that my days were numbered and the number in question wasn't even in the quadruple digits! Now I brave arthritis and pointy objects in a quest to live forever through PHENOMINAL ARCANE POWER!"

"Dude, you're level 1."

"Better late then never, right? And I'm the smartest Elf on Faerun. If anyone can pull it off, I can."
That's hilarious, Mandible.

I say, let him play the venerable elf. Give him arthritis. Make him bitch and moan about walking all day. Make him tell stories about the way things used to be, and how much better everything was back then. Have him wake up at all hours of the night.

The first time he's hit with a bludgeoning weapon (if he doesn't die outright from having such low con), make him break his brittle old man bones.

If you're feeling particularly sadistic, make him incontinent.

He will never play with age bracket cheese again.

daggaz
2007-08-22, 06:47 PM
Not to mention pointy sticks, sharp rocks, and the dreaded caltrop.

Generic PC
2007-08-22, 06:51 PM
Seriously, this is just an awful idea. He's going to have outrageously high save DCs for his spells, but he'll have -6 Str, -6 Dex, and -8 Con. Even with a 14 in Constitution, that's going to give him a Con of 6. He'll have a starting HP of 2, and will have maybe 7 HP by level 5.

If you're worried about him dominating the game - don't. Just don't. Yes, wizards at high levels are devastating. But at level 1, they frankly suck, and that's before stacking such a horrific set of ability penalties on them. Unless you are really, really generous to him, there is no way he is going to survive long enough to get any real mileage out of that 25 Int. Sooner or later something will smack him (or maybe just breathe on him a bit too hard) and he'll fall down dead.

I mean, with his 1st-level feat slot tied up (so no Toughness) he's going to have a starting HP of what? 1? 2? Forget fighting goblins - he's going to be in danger from rats, cats, ravens, and small woodland animals.

- Saph

Actually, i think he has a -8 to Str, but that is inconsequntial...

Elderac
2007-08-22, 07:02 PM
he wants to be venerable adding 3 more int making a starting int of 23.

I apologize if this has been answered already, I haven't read the whole thread.

I generally let my players pick their age for their characters, and on one occassion have had a player play an older (but not venerable) character.

I don't see a problem with him adding the +3 to Int, Wis, and Cha, as long as the takes the corresponding -6 Str, Dex, and Con. Now, in my calculations, a wizard taking -6 to Con is going to get 3 less HP per level, probably for the minimum of 1 per level.

This character would be very feeble and would not likely survive very long in an adventuring environment. Even with a point buy of 32, pumping 18 into Int is going to eat up half of the available points. I would -not- let him drop Wis and Cha to 4 to get points back, knowing that they would be bumped to 10 with venerable. To me, that would be pushing the system too far.

On a different thought, you might offer players a range of ages to be based on their race and starting class. Base it on the die for the various job categories. For example, a human (base age 15) playing a Barbarian (1D4) could start between ages of 16 to 18.

As a player though, I would probably find that too restrictive as I like to play characters that are a little older and more mature, but that's because I am a bit older than the average gamer and prefer playing someone a bit closer to my own age.

I hope this helps.

Pokemaster
2007-08-22, 07:03 PM
In order to start with 9 con, he'd need to spend 16 points on it. If you're doing 32 point buy, that would give him 3 strength, 4 dexterity, 9 constitution, 23 intelligence, 11 wisdom, 11 charisma. In order to start with 10 con, he would have to give up his three points in strength, which would make him unable to move. So he has three hit points, an Armor Class of 7 and -3 to initiative. There is no way he can survive the party's first fight.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-22, 07:13 PM
I'm no Fax, but I'm pretty sure that isn't how age works.

The bonuses aren't cumulative; you only get the bonus to scores the first time, and your penalties only go up by 1 each time;
So a venerable character would get +1/-3, not +3/-6

Yechezkiel
2007-08-22, 07:17 PM
It's cumulative.

"With age, a character’s physical ability scores decrease and his or her mental ability scores increase (see Table: Aging Effects). The effects of each aging step are cumulative. However, none of a character’s ability scores can be reduced below 1 in this way."

horseboy
2007-08-22, 07:43 PM
Get the other players in on it, too - make sure the young whippershappers refer to him as "old man," or wake him up in the middle of the night to ask where babies come from and if he can explain THAC0 to them.

That made me shoot tea out my nose! "Grampa, what's a THAC0?"

ByeLindgren
2007-08-22, 09:18 PM
I believe the whole problem can be obliterated so long as the DM explains to the player how mechanically sub-optimal it is to get that extra 3 INT.

I don't have any FR books (sadly), so I'll have to assume Sun Elf gives +2 DEX +2 INT -2 STR -2 CON, like his long-lost Grey cousin.

That means Mr. Venerable has these stats to fill in with points:

0 STR
4 DEX
0 CON
13 INT
11 WIS
11 CHA

He uses 16 points to buy that precious 25, leaving him (assuming 32 point buy) 16 points to pump his STR/DEX/CON to reasonable levels. This is, of course, assuming he wants only average WIS and CHA, but at this point, he has few options. Let's see what I come up with...

6 STR
8 DEX
6 CON
23 INT
11 WIS
11 CHA

He's not unplayable, but he's seriously and unnecessarily hindered. At first level, he has two hitpoints, AC 9, and his saves stink. He might as well be one of the housecats you'll have to throw at your party in order to not kill them. Wait, no, cats have better DEX. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm)

Many people would weigh HP, concentration checks and fort saves more favorably over ranged attacks, AC, initiative and reflex saves. Some say that you only need a STR in the positives to be an effective wizard. Maybe our Max-Minner (switch intended) thinks this way as well:

4 STR
6 DEX
8 CON
23 INT
11 WIS
11 CHA

Neither array is that good. The problem with going Venerable is that, from an optimizing standpoint, an effective Wizard's second tier stats are CON and DEX, not WIS and CHA. Wizards just don't dump CON and DEX and live at level 1. He might have some killer DCs, but the huge physical penalties are going to hurt too much. Let's say he plays a normal Sun Elf like any other FR-based powergamey Wizard*:

6 STR
16 DEX
12 CON
20 INT
10 WIS
10 CHA

Let's compare this to the first array. What does the wizard lose by dropping his age category? +1 on his save DCs and some bonus spells later on. Boo hoo. What does he gain? +4 AC, +4 initiative, +4 on reflex saves, +4 on ranged attacks, +3 HP per level, +3 on fortitude saves, +3 on concentration checks, and a relative bonus to a bunch of other things which are situationally important. If you were playing a level 5+ campaign and Mr. Wizard was actually a Druid, Venerable is a powergamer's second thought. Not here it isn't.

*Note that this is just an example stat array. It's not necessarily the most optimized, but I'd say it's almost always better than either of those venerable arrays.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-22, 09:53 PM
It's better to go old age, as that's only -3 to physical stats, and +2 to mental. With high point buy, you can have fairly good stats, and phenomenal spell DCs.


Why is a venerable sun elf wizard level 1?

Honestly, I tend to require 1st level characters to be no older than middle-aged under specific circumstances. In this case, the player seems to be pretty obviously trying to power game. I like to let players pick their age, but if they abuse that right then I smack them with DMG.

Likewise, it doesn't make much sense that a wizard can go from level 1 to 10 in a few short months of adventuring.

In 3.0, they had a table for which classes began in which age category.

Eldritch_Ent
2007-08-22, 10:22 PM
I think going to Venerable for just the stats is a losing proposition, however, if a player wanted to be an old fogey wiard... I wouldn't really find a problem with that, myself. I mean- Isn't that what most people think when they think of wizards? Old guys with long bears in pointy hats and carrying funny sticks?

Cybren
2007-08-22, 10:27 PM
I don't care, most people play characters far too young for my tastes.

JackMage666
2007-08-22, 10:29 PM
Yeah.. I'd let him, his low HP and AC is enough to warrant him. If he can survive his first, oh, 5-7 levels, then he might be doing OK by that point. Certainly makes him earn those levels, though...

"Man, those first 5 levels sucked, but now I can cast Fireball!"

"Sucked? For you?" says the Fighter, "I took all the damage for you, and myself, just to save your bony behind. You better make me that ring of permanent Bull's Strength now..."

"Eh.... What was that sonny?"

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-22, 10:29 PM
I don't care, most people play characters far too young for my tastes.

Agreed.
I blame anime.

Alleine
2007-08-22, 11:25 PM
My Dm lets us pick our own ages, and my last char was old, though I didn't realize it until a few sessions had gone by. He trusts us not to make poor choices, and we usually make them young. I chose to be older to a)not be some young punk, and b)Laugh at the elf, who was younger than me.

If you want to punish him, one of the more humiliating ways would be to have a peasant boy chuck a small rock at him cuz he's old and the kid has no respect for his elders. The kid'll probably hit, and do at least 1 damage, rendering the wizard unconscious or nearly so.

Rockphed
2007-08-22, 11:31 PM
Hey, now the cleric will have a use for Cure Minor Wounds.

dyslexicfaser
2007-08-23, 12:22 AM
I blame anime.
I prefer to place blame squarely where it is deserved: communists.

Paragon Badger
2007-08-23, 12:35 AM
I recall reading that the average middleaged peasant is level 7 (even if they are only commoner levels). I forget the exact details, however.

But yes...A venerable sun elf should not be level 1. And even if he is... why the heck has he decided to start adventuring now? Shoulden't he be retiring?

:-/

horseboy
2007-08-23, 12:56 AM
Agreed.
I blame anime.

I blame how you could get married at 13 in midevil society.

Dervag
2007-08-23, 01:28 AM
I think going to Venerable for just the stats is a losing proposition, however, if a player wanted to be an old fogey wiard... I wouldn't really find a problem with that, myself. I mean- Isn't that what most people think when they think of wizards? Old guys with long bears in pointy hats and carrying funny sticks?I thought it was rangers and druids who had bears following them around... :smallconfused:

Ruerl
2007-08-23, 02:16 AM
I prefer to place blame squarely where it is deserved: communists.

And I prefer to blame the evil free market* focusing so much on children's buying power in order to make the game sell better to a certain age group thus making the majority of the characters young in order to make the players feel connected to their characters. :smallwink:

*cough*

Seriously though, I do think that the general trend of young characters has something to do with the age group focus of the present fantasy genre wether anime or Harry Potter, its just about whats "cool" these years.

Regards

Lars

*
No, I am not a communist, I prefer realistic goverments, and I do not think this is the place to discuss such in any case.