I want to optimize my arcana cleric & how do I represent the astronomy skill in D&D?

[krunchyfrogg]

Two pronged question here folks. First, I’m playing a variant human arcana cleric in the Greyhawk setting. He follows the god Celestian.

Here’s my basics:

8/14/14/12/16/10

Feat: magic initiate druid (shillelagh)

Question 1: what other druid cantrip and what first level druid spell help this character the most?

Question 2: I can’t decide between booming blade or green flame blade. I’ve read that booming blade is generally a better choice, but I’m not sure I understand why. Also, the arcana clerics level 8 ability favors green flame blade. Or should I just choose both?

Celestian is the god of magic, wanderers, and astronomy.

Question 3: how can I beat represent knowledge of the stars and celestial bodies in D&D? My character is proficient in history and arcana, but should there be some skill for using a telescope?

Thanks!!

[lunaticfringe]

Hmm that's a tough one, I can see arguments for a few Skills or a Tool even. My advice is to ask your DM about that. (Astronomy)

Druidcraft, Guidance, Thorn Whip, Frostbite, Mending, Control Flames, Create Bonfire. Some of the are on the Cleric list but you only get 5 Cleric cantrips so it might free up an option.

I see no reason why potent cantrip wouldn't to both Blade cantrips. Both seems like a good idea since you plan on going into melee.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Question 3: how can I beat represent knowledge of the stars and celestial bodies in D&D? My character is proficient in history and arcana, but should there be some skill for using a telescope?


As with all skills, the answer depends.

Does what you're trying to do have interesting consequences for failure and is the outcome in doubt?

If no, then it just happens. You say "I study the stars and know X". No roll required.

Otherwise, it'd be an Intelligence check. Depending on the situation, I'd add one of Nature proficiency (for more academic knowledge about the names, locations, patterns, etc.), Arcana proficiency (for the mystical connotations of a particular star pattern), or Navigator's tools (for navigating via the stars). See Xanthar's Guide for more uses of Navigator's Tools (pg 83).

[JellyPooga]

On Astronomy;

"Tool Proficiency; Astrolabe" would be fitting. Proficiency in Survival, it being the skill for navigation in general, would also seem appropriate. If you wanted to focus on the more mystical applications of astronomy, then I think the Arcana skill would probably suit. If you only want to focus on the religious implications, then Religion is the one you want.

[Unoriginal]

What do you want to be able to do with Astronomy?

[krunchyfrogg]

What do you want to be able to do with Astronomy?

Not much, to be honest. This characters god is the god of the stars, so I wanted to make sure his priest would know what he’s looking at.

[lunaticfringe]

Not much, to be honest. This characters god is the god of the stars, so I wanted to make sure his priest would know what he’s looking at.

Since it ties into your PC's faith I'd use Religion or Nav Tools depending on what you were trying to do.

[Unoriginal]

Arcana would work, too, because several stars in D&D are actually beings such as Great Old Ones.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Not much, to be honest. This characters god is the god of the stars, so I wanted to make sure his priest would know what he’s looking at.

Then that's mostly non-mechanical. You can just say that he knows the stars--I wouldn't make you roll for it except under exceptional circumstances.


Since it ties into your PC's faith I'd use Religion or Nav Tools depending on what you were trying to do.


Arcana would work, too, because several stars in D&D are actually beings such as Great Old Ones.

I see skills as being much more related to the use of the knowledge. Are you trying to navigate? Then Navigator's Tools. Are you trying to determine the religious significance of a pattern? Religion. Are you trying to determine the magical significance? Arcana. Are you just knowing the stars for role-play purposes? No skill needed. Just like you don't need History to know the leader of the town you grew up in.

[Ganymede]

Proficiency in Navigator's Tools (or maybe Cartographer's Tools) could be a good ersatz Astronomy proficiency.

[JackPhoenix]

Astronomer is one of the fluff specialties in the Sage background. It doesn't do anything, though.

[Vorok]

It could be represented by several skills. As other's said, Survival/Navigator's tools to orient yourself at night, knowing the constellations through Nature, maybe History. When you're in a magical world, the constellations might have myths/legends (as a thing that actually happened) connected to them (a dragon was beloved by a goddess, and when the dragon died, the goddess put its soul into the stars as a constellation), which could be represented by a Religion/Arcana check.

I have a char concept of a wandering astronomer (mechanically Lore bard), who wants to learn and share all the secrets of the stars (share the constellations through spells like Silent Image and other Illusions, tell the story connected to it...)

[Haydensan]

Question 2: I can’t decide between booming blade or green flame blade. I’ve read that booming blade is generally a better choice, but I’m not sure I understand why. Also, the arcana clerics level 8 ability favors green flame blade. Or should I just choose both?


With the potent cantrips ability by the time you have it, it will apply to both the extra damage you get on the initial attack and also on the movement​ damage from BB plus the bounce damage from GFB. So pretty even if you ask me.

If you could let us know the rest of your cantrips that your starting with it might help.

I recently made an arcana cleric for a campaign that hasn't started yet with MI shillelagh as well. Cantrips list looks like this so far (not finalised):

Cleric picks:
Spare the dying
Light
Toll the dead (or Thaumaturgy if I dont take both GFB/BB)
MI Druid:
Shillelagh
Guidance
Arcana picks:
GFB
BB (or Ray of frost, Toll the dead would be dropped if RoF is taken. Mentioned above)

That's my list, but yeah it depends on whether you want flexibility to choose between the effects, do you want some control or just more damage? Keep in my mind for booming blade it's very nice with spirit guardians when you get it.

[krunchyfrogg]

hank you all. This character has been submitted so with me luck.

Here’s what I went with:

Variant human
Arcana cleric 1
Magic initiate (druid) feat

8/14/14/12/16/10

Cantrips:

Shillelagh
Thorn whip (I figure I can drag enemies into *spirit guardians* at a higher level)
Booming blade
Chill touch
Guidance
Light
Sacred flame

I also chose absorb elements as my level 1 druid spell.

[Klorox]

Navigator tools?

I think the sage background touches on using telescopes.

[Biggstick]

hank you all. This character has been submitted so with me luck.

Here’s what I went with:

Variant human
Arcana cleric 1
Magic initiate (druid) feat

8/14/14/12/16/10

Cantrips:

Shillelagh
Thorn whip (I figure I can drag enemies into *spirit guardians* at a higher level)
Booming blade
Chill touch
Guidance
Light
Sacred flame

I also chose absorb elements as my level 1 druid spell.

So having played a Nature Cleric up to level 17 over a year-plus long period, I feel I have perspective that many don't in regards to Shillelagh. I also was like you, and others in this post who thought Shillelagh was going to be great for the character, as I thought I'd be spending time making weapon attacks.

Shillelagh is great for the first 4 levels of your character's career. After that, it's pretty garbage. Why would I say it's garbage? Well let's get into that.

To properly use Shillelagh, we have to be getting up into melee range. It also means we're having to have both hands occupied, as you're probably SnB. If you have both hands filled, you better have Warcaster, as you won't be casting quite a few spells. Anyways, we're up in melee range as a Cleric, using our Action on swinging a weapon. Now it can be done, and you'll do ok damage in the early game and even potentially into the mid-game if you've rolled stats or are given powerful magic items. As you climb in levels, you're not going to be able to keep up with the true martial characters (Paladin/Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian/etc) unless you're casting spells. And when I say casting spells, I mean things like Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon.

Now there's a spell. Spirit Guardians. Solid damage that scales well. It has a short radius (15'), meaning enemies have to be pretty close to be affected by it. It's also going to attract the attention of a smart enemy on the battlefield, as they'll want to end the swirling of spirits. This means you're going to potentially draw fire from ranged enemies or the complete focus of melee enemies in an attempt to have you drop concentration on the spell. Your focus as the Arcana Cleric (if you intend on being in melee range running Spirit Guardians) should be maintaining concentration on spells (Spirit Guardians) and keeping enemies in your Spirit Guardians. Here's the thing that people don't really understand though, is that once an enemy is within the Spirit Guardians and within melee range of you, they're pretty much stuck. You don't need any ways to really keep them close, as you'll be able to keep up with them no matter what. At this point simply taking the Dodge Action while they attack you and allowing the Spirit Guardians to do their work is going to be the safest thing you can do.

Now what about for creatures further away from your Spirit Guardians? Or creatures that are barely within range of your Spirit Guardians, not quite so caught up in the whirlpool of death represented by your Guardians? Your objective (if you want to be in melee range that is) should be to get closer to them, or pull them closer to you. The 30' from Thorn Whip is solid, but we can make it better. You're ideally suited as an Arcana Cleric to pick up the Spell Sniper feat at first level for Thorn Whip instead of Magic Initiate. Why would I make this recommendation over Magic Initiate?

Shillelagh is great in that it lets you use your spell casting stat for your melee attacks. However, as a Cleric, once you get past level 9, your Actions are going to be primarily spent getting a solid concentration spell up, using spell slots in general, or using the Dodge Action to maintain your concentration on powerful spells. To spend a turn attacking makes you vulnerable to enemies, and you're a high priority target as a Cleric. I also feel increasing the range on your Thorn Whip to 60' would give you a huge amount of control over the battlefield, in being able to move creatures away from allies, or simply closer to you. What's nice is Spell Sniper will also increase the range of your Attack-roll-based Wizard cantrips gained through being an Arcana Cleric. This means spells like Chill Touch and Firebolt increase their range to 240' versus 120'. While this might not seem like a big deal to you now, the further into the game you go, the further you're going to want to be from most bad guys.

So all in all, while theorycraft shows Shillelagh as being great, in practice it's not nearly as useful as one might think. Even tacking on things like BB or GFB don't make an Attack roll worth it in the mid-late game for a Cleric.

Another point I'd like to put to you, in case you can still make changes. Either way you end up settling on (MI or SS), I'd recommend Firebolt instead of Chill Touch and Toll the Dead instead of Sacred Flame. Toll the Dead is an amazing cantrip. Even if you don't take this advice, grabbing Toll the Dead or Sacred Flame at Cleric 4 is still something you can do.

[LordEntrails]

...
Question 3: how can I beat represent knowledge of the stars and celestial bodies in D&D? My character is proficient in history and arcana, but should there be some skill for using a telescope?
No. You will bloat the game if you try to generate skills for every little thing you can do. Using a telescope is pretty much a knowledge skill. And you can simple add your proficiency to it since it makes since your character would know how to do that. Or to just make it easy, use Arcana.


Not much, to be honest. This characters god is the god of the stars, so I wanted to make sure his priest would know what he’s looking at.
Ok, use Religion if you want. Same effect, or at least close enough.
Keep It Simple Stupid :)

[Dyndrilliac]

I personally would allow/use Int (Investigation) or Wis (Perception), perhaps even at the player's choice. The reason being that you are searching for something (in this case in the heavens) with one of your five senses (in this case sight). I could also see an argument to be made for Int (Religion) or Wis (Survival).

[krunchyfrogg]

So having played a Nature Cleric up to level 17 over a year-plus long period, I feel I have perspective that many don't in regards to Shillelagh. I also was like you, and others in this post who thought Shillelagh was going to be great for the character, as I thought I'd be spending time making weapon attacks.

Shillelagh is great for the first 4 levels of your character's career. After that, it's pretty garbage. Why would I say it's garbage? Well let's get into that.

To properly use Shillelagh, we have to be getting up into melee range. It also means we're having to have both hands occupied, as you're probably SnB. If you have both hands filled, you better have Warcaster, as you won't be casting quite a few spells. Anyways, we're up in melee range as a Cleric, using our Action on swinging a weapon. Now it can be done, and you'll do ok damage in the early game and even potentially into the mid-game if you've rolled stats or are given powerful magic items. As you climb in levels, you're not going to be able to keep up with the true martial characters (Paladin/Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian/etc) unless you're casting spells. And when I say casting spells, I mean things like Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon.

Now there's a spell. Spirit Guardians. Solid damage that scales well. It has a short radius (15'), meaning enemies have to be pretty close to be affected by it. It's also going to attract the attention of a smart enemy on the battlefield, as they'll want to end the swirling of spirits. This means you're going to potentially draw fire from ranged enemies or the complete focus of melee enemies in an attempt to have you drop concentration on the spell. Your focus as the Arcana Cleric (if you intend on being in melee range running Spirit Guardians) should be maintaining concentration on spells (Spirit Guardians) and keeping enemies in your Spirit Guardians. Here's the thing that people don't really understand though, is that once an enemy is within the Spirit Guardians and within melee range of you, they're pretty much stuck. You don't need any ways to really keep them close, as you'll be able to keep up with them no matter what. At this point simply taking the Dodge Action while they attack you and allowing the Spirit Guardians to do their work is going to be the safest thing you can do.

Now what about for creatures further away from your Spirit Guardians? Or creatures that are barely within range of your Spirit Guardians, not quite so caught up in the whirlpool of death represented by your Guardians? Your objective (if you want to be in melee range that is) should be to get closer to them, or pull them closer to you. The 30' from Thorn Whip is solid, but we can make it better. You're ideally suited as an Arcana Cleric to pick up the Spell Sniper feat at first level for Thorn Whip instead of Magic Initiate. Why would I make this recommendation over Magic Initiate?

Shillelagh is great in that it lets you use your spell casting stat for your melee attacks. However, as a Cleric, once you get past level 9, your Actions are going to be primarily spent getting a solid concentration spell up, using spell slots in general, or using the Dodge Action to maintain your concentration on powerful spells. To spend a turn attacking makes you vulnerable to enemies, and you're a high priority target as a Cleric. I also feel increasing the range on your Thorn Whip to 60' would give you a huge amount of control over the battlefield, in being able to move creatures away from allies, or simply closer to you. What's nice is Spell Sniper will also increase the range of your Attack-roll-based Wizard cantrips gained through being an Arcana Cleric. This means spells like Chill Touch and Firebolt increase their range to 240' versus 120'. While this might not seem like a big deal to you now, the further into the game you go, the further you're going to want to be from most bad guys.

So all in all, while theorycraft shows Shillelagh as being great, in practice it's not nearly as useful as one might think. Even tacking on things like BB or GFB don't make an Attack roll worth it in the mid-late game for a Cleric.

Another point I'd like to put to you, in case you can still make changes. Either way you end up settling on (MI or SS), I'd recommend Firebolt instead of Chill Touch and Toll the Dead instead of Sacred Flame. Toll the Dead is an amazing cantrip. Even if you don't take this advice, grabbing Toll the Dead or Sacred Flame at Cleric 4 is still something you can do.

Thank you for your insight. It’s greatly appreciated.

First things first, I’m taking Toll the Dead. Wow.

I like shillelagh for the first few levels. It’s kind of my backup schtick. It isn’t the bread and butter of this character. It’s more of a “ok, now I’ve got *options.* I can make a melee attack (with booming blade), or I can cast a spell. When my spells run out, I like having a reliable melee option.

Your suggestion of spell sniper instead of magic initiate won’t work, because I’m only getting thorn whip through magic initiate.

Why firebolt over chill touch? I know the damage is slightly more with firebolt, but the chill touch spells secondary affects are pretty darn good. That being said, I already have a necromantic damage option with toll the dead. What about ray of frost? Is that a viable alternative?

Edit: with toll the dead as a ranged cantrip, and magic missile as a ranged level 1 spell, I think my best bet is to get the minor illusion cantrip. It’s just so good and versatile, no matter what level you’re on.

[Biggstick]

Thank you for your insight. It’s greatly appreciated.

First things first, I’m taking Toll the Dead. Wow.

I like shillelagh for the first few levels. It’s kind of my backup schtick. It isn’t the bread and butter of this character. It’s more of a “ok, now I’ve got *options.* I can make a melee attack (with booming blade), or I can cast a spell. When my spells run out, I like having a reliable melee option.

Your suggestion of spell sniper instead of magic initiate won’t work, because I’m only getting thorn whip through magic initiate.

Why firebolt over chill touch? I know the damage is slightly more with firebolt, but the chill touch spells secondary affects are pretty darn good. That being said, I already have a necromantic damage option with toll the dead. What about ray of frost? Is that a viable alternative?

Edit: with toll the dead as a ranged cantrip, and magic missile as a ranged level 1 spell, I think my best bet is to get the minor illusion cantrip. It’s just so good and versatile, no matter what level you’re on.

Your viable melee option on a Cleric is Toll the Dead or Sacred Flame.

They're saving throw based spells, thus they can be used in melee at no detriment to you as the caster.

In the early game, your spell casting is going to probably be something like 16. So using Shillelagh will net you a d8 weapon that you use with a 16 Wisdom. Orrrr, if you're that set on using a melee weapon instead of Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead, you can use a dagger with your Dexterity mod (which should be 14 if you're using medium armor, which as an Arcana Cleric, you should have). The difference in damage being done is honestly minimal, and the chance to hit is only 5 percent less. So yes, you already have a viable melee option if you have 14 Dexterity, which doesn't require the use of Shillelagh.

I recommend Spell Sniper because it of the amazing utility and versatility it brings to a "caster" Cleric. Doubling the range of your attack-roll based spells, as well as removing any sort of cover penalty, is actually pretty amazing. You don't need Shillelagh, as it will turn out to be way less useful to your combat strategy as you climb in levels.

The reason you're getting Firebolt is that yes, you'll have necrotic damage from Toll the Dead. Now I'm not the biggest fan of Ray of Frost because of it's range, but if you pick up Spell Sniper, it's range becomes much more tolerable. The point here is to have a viable ranged option, as TtD and SF range is 60'. That is a little too close for comfort if you're trying to ambush a creature or if you're trying to attack a fleeing creature.

As far as your second Wizard cantrip, do with it what you will! I'm a huge fan of the trio of utility cantrips (Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion) myself, but I don't know if I'd use one of my two cantrip choices on it. I definitely advise picking up one of the ranged attack cantrips though, preferably one of the 120' ranged ones, unless you're grabbing Spell Sniper. If you're grabbing Spell Sniper, one of the 60' attack cantrips will work out just fine.

Just as a reminder. Your viable melee option as a Cleric is Toll the Dead or Sacred Flame.

[PopeLinus1]

Depends on the setting(par for the course with this one).

If the stars have constellations of hero’s and events of legand, than history.

If the stars are magic(TES for instance) than Arcana

If neither are true, probably nature.

[krunchyfrogg]

I looked at the numbers, and I agree. I’m probably best off going pure caster and ignoring shillelagh.

I’ll either take warcaster or spell sniper.

Thank you!!