A numerical analysis of tanking survivability

[PhoenixPhyre]

Prompted by a comment about tanking niche protection (claiming that heavy armor should give the best results for soaking hits), I decided to attempt to explore the design space to determine exactly how far apart various builds are. Now with V2 of my attempt (the first was fatally flawed and non-extensible), I have some results.

First, the builds (all using the same 27 point buy):

V. Human (Shield Master)
15/14/15/8/10/8, +1 STR/CON
ASIs: Sentinel, CON x2, STR x2
Medium armor (half-plate at 5), shield, 1h weapon

Level : Important defensive feature
1: Shield master (use reaction to take 0 damage on DEX success or 1/2 on fail)
1: Rage
2: Danger Sense (advantage on DEX saves against visible things)
3: Path of the Totem (Bear): extends rage damage resistance to all but psychic.
11: Relentless Rage: CON save on being reduced to 0 HP, goto 1 HP.
15: Endless Rage: Rage no longer breaks early unless knocked unconscious
17: Enough rages to range 1x per fight for 6 fights (the baseline).

Build-specific assumptions:
*Uses rage whenever possible to maximize up-time.
*Rage lasts for the whole duration of the fight (an over-estimate to be sure).
*Uses Shield Master whenever it would help.


V. Human (Shield Master)
15/14/15/8/10/8, +1 STR/CON
ASIs: Warcaster @ 4, Alternate CON/STR until maxed, then increase DEX and WIS
Heavy armor (Plate at 5), shield, 1h weapon, defense fighting style (+1 AC)

Level : Important defensive feature
1: Shield master (use reaction to take 0 damage on DEX success or 1/2 on fail)
2: Second Wind (Heal 1d10 + LVL 1x/LR)
3: Archetype Eldritch Knight --> shield
4: Warcaster (advantage on concentration + better casting)
7: blur
9: Indomitable (reroll failed save 1x/LR, 2x/LR @ 13, 3x/LR @ 17)

Assumptions:
*Using all 1st level slots to cast shield, maximizing up-time.
*Using all 2nd and 3rd level slots to cast blur, maximizing up-time.
*Use second wind every day.

Note: Indomitable not simulated because the math made my brain hurt. So mid/high level fighters do better against DEX saves than shown.



V. Human (Moderately Armored)
base: 14/15/15/8/10/8, racial: +1 STR/CON
ASIs: Medium Armor Master @ 4, then alternate DEX/CON until maxed, then WIS at 19.
Medium armor (Half-plate at 5), shield, 1h weapon

Level : Important defensive feature
1: Moderately Armored (medium armor + shield)
3: Archetype Arcane Trickster --> shield
4: Medium Armor Master (Max DEX bonus +1 for medium armor, no disadvantage from medium armor)
5: Uncanny dodge (reaction for half damage from attack hit)
7: blur, Evasion
15: Slippery Mind (WIS save proficiency)

Assumptions:
*Using all 1st level slots to cast shield, maximizing up-time.
*Using all 2nd and 3rd level slots to cast blur, maximizing up-time.
*Use uncanny dodge whenever possible, maximizing up-time


A note about results: the metric I'm using is Rounds to Live = effective health / incoming DPR. Defensive features reduce incoming DPR, self-heals (second wind) increase effective health.

The next post will discuss the assumptions and limitations of this work.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Assumptions and Limitations

I analyzed 2 cases (with 3 sub-cases each) at 8 individual levels (top and bottom of each tier):

1) Simultaneously taking fire from two targets of "appropriate" CR--this represents the bulk of the daily fights. The CRs used (for ATK and DMG) calculations were generated by taking a weighted average over the guidance given in Xanthar's for each level range and adjusting for the generally over-CR offensive capabilities of MM monsters. ATK bonuses are the average for that adjusted CR, DPR is the DMG guidance average for that CR.

Level 1: CR 1/4, oCR 1/2
Level 4: CR 1, oCR 2
Level 5: CR 2, oCR 4
Level 10: CR 4, oCR 7
Level 11: CR 5, oCR 7
Level 16: CR 7, oCR 10
Level 17: CR 8, oCR 12
Level 20: CR 9, oCR 11 (these monsters are more defensive than most)

2) Tanking a "hard solo" fight, assuming a party of 5 and using CRs one higher than the numbers from Xanthar's.

Level 1: CR 3
Level 4: CR 6
Level 5: CR 9
Level 10: CR 14
Level 11: CR 15
Level 16: CR 21
Level 17: CR 22
Level 20: CR 24

Each case was analyzed in three ways:

a) assuming all the incoming HP damage was in the form of attacks vs AC
b) assuming all the incoming HP damage was in the form of effects forcing DEX saves (with half-damage on success)
c) assuming a variable mix of the two preceding cases--these numbers assume 40% dex saves, but the numbers are not that sensitive to the exact mix.

*Assumptions about fights: For calculating uptime, I'm assuming 6 fights/LR (all the analyzed class features don't care about SRs), with an average duration of 4 rounds. More rounds per fight makes things like shield less valuable.

*The fact that crits are not exactly 2x damage (due to static modifiers not being doubled) is handled with an empirical multiplier (set to 1.6 based on a sample of MM monsters).

Limitation
*These numbers say nothing about non-RTL factors (such as attacks with advantage, disengaging, etc). In all likelyhood, there's a round or two where you're not in direct combat with 2+ small baddies or 1 big one but are still in combat.

I'm relatively confident in the trends, but not in the absolute numbers.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Results
The entire spreadsheet is viewable at this One Drive link (https://1drv.ms/x/s!AjKe-YTGxfZWrU9ceebA9XWSepgH).

Entries with [#] refer to numbered footnotes.

Multi-target tanking (all numbers in RTL, averaged over all levels)


Damage Type
Barb
EK
Rogue


AC
4.3
6.6 6.8
3.6


DC
3.6
1.9 2.0
0.7[1]


MIX
4.0
4.7 4.9
2.4



[1] This is dragged down horribly by the pre-level 7 (pre-evasion) stats. The other two builds have shield master and much more health to mitigate this. AT can't take absorb elements if it also wants shield--it doesn't have enough spare non-illusion/enchantment picks.

Single-target tanking (all numbers in RTL, averaged over all levels)


Damage Type
Barb
EK
Rogue


AC
2.4
2.3 2.4
2.1


DC
3.7
2.1 2.2
3.2[2]


MIX
2.9
2.3 2.4
2.5



[2] The rogue's much better dex saves help here, since there's only a single source of damage the better miss chance makes a huge difference.

Discussion
*Fighters and Barbarians are pretty close, depending on workload. The numbers against solos for AC and mixed tanking are within the margin of error.

*EKs do much better against attacks once shield and blur are both online. The mean RTL against AC attacks doubles once blur comes on (starting at the level 10 benchmark). They're much poorer against DEX save damage; shield master helps but not tons.

*Rogues are decent against single targets but fall quite a bit behind on soaking multiple damage sources.

[qube]

two remarks
second wind is once per short rest, not per day (as you mentioned in your assumptions)
when focussing on tanking, once EK can use cantrip + attack - he can use Blade Ward (resistance to non-magical physical) & at the cost of his extra attacks

[PhoenixPhyre]

two remarks
second wind is once per short rest, not per day (as you mentioned in your assumptions)
when focussing on tanking, once EK can use cantrip + attack - he can use Blade Ward (resistance to non-magical physical) & at the cost of his extra attacks

1) Ah. Missed that. That will make Fighters better then. I'll fix that.
2) That's way too much to simulate though. Makes the fighter numbers an even lower bound on the true numbers, which is good to keep in mind.

[TheUser]

EK's have absorb Elements at level 3, can attack once and bladeward after level 7 and have access to blur/shield. They also have HAM which pays off tremendously. There's really very little comparison. They also get stoneskin @ 17...pretty much seals the deal.

Also multi-classing adds a lot to this; 7 levels of EK MC into Rogue for uncanny dodge.


I am surprised conquest Paladin and Moon Druid were left out; they are top tier tanks. Conquest has free healing high AC and easy disadv. on attacks with fear spells. Moon Druids get stone skin and a metric ass load of free hp along with forms that restrain as part of their attacks.

[PhoenixPhyre]

[1]EK's have absorb Elements at level 3, can attack once and bladeward after level 7 and have access to blur/shield. They also have HAM which pays off tremendously. There's really very little comparison. They also get stoneskin @ 17...pretty much seala the deal.

[2]Also multi-classing adds a lot to this; 7 levels of EK MC into Rogue for uncanny dodge.


[3]I am surprised conquest Paladin and Moon Druid were left out; they are top tier tanks. Conquest has free healing high AC and easy disadv. on attacks with fear spells. Moon Druids get stone skin and a metric ass load of free hp along with forms that restrain as part of their attacks.

[1] I'm assuming all the slots are going to shield. I could add absorb elements I guess. There's not enough ASIs for HAM where they're weak (lower levels), I could add it in though. Stoneskin and blur don't go together (both are concentration).

[2] I could add that as an option, but looking at the numbers I'm not sure it would really matter that much.

[3] Propose a build for them and I'll add them when I have time. These were just the first three (easiest) ones to build. The framework is reasonably extensible to other builds.

[djreynolds]

Here the thing with tanking.... if your AC is astronomical no one is attacking you.

So a barbarian is the best, because he running around in a banana hammock.... you want to hit this guy. And all damage is halved and usually you AC is around 16-18.... you want to get hit.

While the EK, she's in plate and shield and last round just cast the shield spell.... may as well try to hit a dragon's AC.

Rogue and uncanny dodge is awesome but so is using disengage with cunning action.

A tank must draw agro, recklessly attacking makes for a tempting strike with advantage from the enemy... they don't know they are only doing half damage

With an EK, my caster is going to use a spell like charm or fear.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Here the thing with tanking.... if your AC is astronomical no one is attacking you.

So a barbarian is the best, because he running around in a banana hammock.... you want to hit this guy. And all damage is halved and usually you AC is around 16-18.... you want to get hit.

While the EK, she's in plate and shield and last round just cast the shield spell.... may as well try to hit a dragon's AC.

Rogue and uncanny dodge is awesome but so is using disengage with cunning action.

A tank must draw agro, recklessly attacking makes for a tempting strike with advantage from the enemy... they don't know they are only doing half damage

With an EK, my caster is going to use a spell like charm or fear.

That strongly depends on factors out of the player's control, including the intelligence and tactical ability of the DM and the style of the game. Here I'm testing the worst case scenario--locked in combat with the threats, how long can you survive? That puts a sort of floor on the numbers--good tactics can greatly improve these (or reduce resource burns by not having to maintain shield all the time, etc).

And reckless is horrible on survivability, even while raging. It's the equivalent of having an inverse shield spell (roughly a 5pt decrease in AC). It cuts them (versus AC threats) to equivalent to the rogue at about an average of 3 RTL (down from 4.3).

[Davrix]

why no love for the paladin in this?

They are not bad tanks and seriously if played right offer a ton of control on the field. Yea you don't want the hit the plate guy, your going to be sorry if you ignore a paladin, especially the new conquest oath with sorc on top.

[PhoenixPhyre]

why no love for the paladin in this?

They are not bad tanks and seriously if played right offer a ton of control on the field. Yea you don't want the hit the plate guy, your going to be sorry if you ignore a paladin, especially the new conquest oath with sorc on top.

As I said--propose a build and I'll add it when I can. I prefer PHB builds, but will accept anything AL legal. 27 pt point buy for stats, no magic items.

[Davrix]

Basically what I'm building right now and do keep in mind I was a 4th ed junky so I loved the idea of punishing things that don't look at me and attack me first and this was the cor concept of this idea and build.

Human variant so + feat
Paladin oath of conquest lv 8
Hexblade 2
Divine soul sorc 10

This gives you access to all paladin spells, gives you 1 spell slot at lv 6 7 & 8 for any sorc or cleric spell you wish

Make sure you get a 15 in str somehow for full plate and dump everything else into Char and a decent con score.

Boost Cha to 20

Feats you want

Shield master
War Caster
Sentinel

Edit - totally forgot that 2 in warlock takes out one tier of stat boosts so unless the DM is kind and awards bonus feats for backstory this part isn't going to matter. In my case I was giving magic initiate as a bonus for his backstory I wrote.

Mage slayer or Magic initiate (familiar spell) kinda depends on the game your in and the DM but I would probably go with find familiar as having the help option once per turn on anyone or being able to not have to dive across the battlefield to save someone is just to god damn useful.

If you want to be a little less utility don't take either of the last two and choose resistance in con and your spells with war-caster will never get interrupted.

Basically the build will help lock down anyone within 10ft of you if they are feared with the conquest aura. If anyone tries to move within 5 ft of you that isn't feared sentinel is going to ruin their day and you can cheese booming blade into it because of war caster or apply a new fear with wrathful smite. Shield master lets you knock targets prone as a bonus action which if they are at zero movement they wont be standing up next turn and then you simply move on to the next cluster or bad guy because either targets will flee from you and take damage from booming blade if you applied it or be on the ground and have to waste time getting up. Either way your going to be controlling the battlefield very nicely. Top that with a +5 to all saves with your paladin aura and oh lets see even with only base non magical stuff and you take defensive you should be sitting at 21 AC toss in armor of faith for 23 AC and shield spell as needed for 28 AC. Personally I say eat your god damn heart out barb with this sort of build. Add magical gear and the AC just becomes something that even a CR 20 might find hard to hit via spell or physical wise. While offering party support and healing with spells and the paladin resist aura of +5 to all saves which is great when you need to run in and save someone. I think the lv 17 boost to 30ft is based on the class lv not overall lv sadly unless someone can tell me otherwise so its stuck at 10ft if it is player lv well that's just gravy.

Edit - oh and because of sorcery points you can convert spells down for quicken spell and tossing in more things like shield if the fight needs it. And or just more smiting because who doesn't need more of that :)

[djreynolds]

That strongly depends on factors out of the player's control, including the intelligence and tactical ability of the DM and the style of the game. Here I'm testing the worst case scenario--locked in combat with the threats, how long can you survive? That puts a sort of floor on the numbers--good tactics can greatly improve these (or reduce resource burns by not having to maintain shield all the time, etc).

And reckless is horrible on survivability, even while raging. It's the equivalent of having an inverse shield spell (roughly a 5pt decrease in AC). It cuts them (versus AC threats) to equivalent to the rogue at about an average of 3 RTL (down from 4.3).

First off, great thread. Very good.

The orcs want to hit the half naked barbarian recklessly attacking them.

They may ignore the guy in plate and go for weaker team mates in the back when they can't hit him.

The barbarian, recklessly attacking, draws agro. Tanking. And you have rage's damage resistance.

Now if you are asking who would last the longest in a fight, an EK or AT typically have say 4 1st level and 4 2nd level slots. Using some slots on blur and mirror image and for the shield spell and absorb elements. The rogue lacks con save proficiency so they might lose out a concentration spell like blur, and the fighter lacks dex saves and could get rocked by a disintegrate spell

In time spells can get used up fast, I have to favor the bearbarian with GWM as the tank, reckless attack and GWM are a sweet combo.

IMO the stickiest opponent is the paladin because of his aura's.

But for just lasting in a fight, you may never hit an EK in full plate with shield and shield spell and the blur spell.

The power of the blur spell is it causes disadvantage, 99% of the time ruining a possible crit rolled by the enemy. Whereas the shield spell does not stop a critical hit, because all rolled 20's are an automatic hit regardless of AC. Blur causes disadvantage and rarely does anyone roll double 20's

[PhoenixPhyre]

First off, great thread. Very good.

The orcs want to hit the half naked barbarian recklessly attacking them.

They may ignore the guy in plate and go for weaker team mates in the back when they can't hit him.

The barbarian, recklessly attacking, draws agro. Tanking. And you have rage's damage resistance.

Now if you are asking who would last the longest in a fight, an EK or AT typically have say 4 1st level and 4 2nd level slots. Using some slots on blur and mirror image and for the shield spell and absorb elements. The rogue lacks con save proficiency so they might lose out a concentration spell like blur, and the fighter lacks dex saves and could get rocked by a disintegrate spell

In time spells can get used up fast, I have to favor the bearbarian with GWM as the tank, reckless attack and GWM are a sweet combo.

IMO the stickiest opponent is the paladin because of his aura's.

But for just lasting in a fight, you may never hit an EK in full plate with shield and shield spell and the blur spell.

The power of the blur spell is it causes disadvantage, 99% of the time ruining a possible crit rolled by the enemy. Whereas the shield spell does not stop a critical hit, because all rolled 20's are an automatic hit regardless of AC. Blur causes disadvantage and rarely does anyone roll double 20's

Those are all factored in. The assumption is that for max durability the EK is running blur out of every 2nd and 3rd level slot (enough so that at level 20 he has it up every fight) and shield or absorb elements out of every 1st level slot (depending on damage type). Blur and shield are synergistic--disadvantage + a situational +5 AC reduces the average incoming DPR from two enemies at level 20 to 14 each (down from a raw of 71.5 each before accounting from AC). That's huge.

So if you have to worry about threat control (which you really can't, since there are very few "threat" mechanics--it depends on DM decisions after all), a barb is an acceptable choice. But for plugging up a hole and not letting people past, EK all the way.

[qube]

What about Defensive Dualist for the EK? Rapier = same damage as longsword anyway, and that makes the EK a DEX/CON build.

(Dualist doesn't work well with rage being strength based; and doesn't work with rogue well as it's main defensive feature already is reaction)

... but I think I agree with djreynolds. When you put a
Fullplate, shield, Defensive Dualist (AC21+prof or 26 with shield spell),
blade ward (not a concentration spell) & HAM (damage divide by 2, minus 3),
warcaster blurred (attacks have disadvantage) /// or protection from evil if applicable
fighter on the field ... ain't nobody even gonna bother attacking you.

hole-pluggin? EK
Agro pulling? Barb
Not a tank? Rogue ;)

[PhoenixPhyre]

What about Defensive Dualist for the EK? Rapier = same damage as longsword anyway, and that makes the EK a DEX/CON build.

(Dualist doesn't work well with rage being strength based; and doesn't work with rogue well as it's main defensive feature already is reaction)

... but I think I agree with djreynolds. When you put a
Fullplate, shield, Defensive Dualist (AC21+prof or 26 with shield spell),
blade ward (not a concentration spell) & HAM (damage divide by 2, minus 3),
warcaster blurred (attacks have disadvantage) /// or protection from evil if applicable
fighter on the field ... ain't nobody even gonna bother attacking you.

hole-pluggin? EK
Agro pulling? Barb
Not a tank? Rogue ;)

That depends on the enemies encountered and the DM. This isn't an MMO, where there are predictable threat mechanics.

AC isn't a perceivable statistic (nor is HAM or blade ward)--they won't know he's got anything beyond the plate and shield (and at high levels, blur) until they try to hit him. And lots of eminently killable things have plate and a shield.

For a Barb to look like a serious damage threat, he'd be better with a 2H weapon, but that tanks (pun intended) survivability--you loose both 2 AC and shield master.

[LudicSavant]

Thich you really can't, since there are very few "threat" mechanics--it depends on DM decisions after all

You don't need some artificial "aggro" tracker to project threat; competitive gamers playing PvP games with tanking roles know that you can project threat on and tank humans (and very effectively, at that). DM-controlled enemies can be tanked utilizing the same principles.

You do this by making yourself a presence that cannot be ignored, who either punishes enemies for ignoring you or doesn't give them much of a choice via control lockdown abilities and the like. The ability to do this sort of thing is what separates the tanks from the turtles.

[Davrix]

You don't need some artificial "aggro" tracker to project threat; competitive gamers playing PvP games with tanking roles know that you can project threat on and tank humans (and very effectively, at that). DM-controlled enemies can be tanked utilizing the same principles.

You do this by making yourself a presence that cannot be ignored, who either punishes enemies for ignoring you or doesn't give them much of a choice via control lockdown abilities and the like. The ability to do this sort of thing is what separates the tanks from the turtles.

This not to mention any good DM will respond with good role play.

The paladin or guy in plate screaming creative insults and taunts will always draw tons of agro.

I recall one time my paladin grabbed some goblins sacred statue and started swinging it like a club smashing there faces in. Trust me I had full agro :)

[Temperjoke]

I mean, the point of this is which of these builds is the best at surviving sustained damage. It's an incomplete definition of the tank role in a party, which is why the comparison starts falling apart as you add in these other parts. That's because there are few mechanical methods of ensuring aggro, since aggro is dependent on how your DM envisions his/her monsters attacking.

But take out the need to hold aggro (such as there aren't any other party members, it's just one character defending a point) and this isn't a bad way to see which is better among these 3 builds.

[TheUser]

[3] Propose a build for them and I'll add them when I have time. These were just the first three (easiest) ones to build. The framework is reasonably extensible to other builds.
Human Druid with Resillient Con (wildshape is a very fnicky thing with multiple rulings such that you can optimize better racials if a DM is ok with it but we'll keep it easy and RAW friendly)

Level 2: 11 AC 39 HP per wildshape as a giant toad, attacking a medium or smaller creature restrains it giving disadv. on attacks. DC 13 escape but the creature must spend its action escaping. Can swallow and restrain one additional creature after landing another attack.

Level 3: Barkskin means 16 AC now.

Level 6: 60 hp 16 AC per wildshape (giant constrictor with bark skin) restrains 1 enemy with a landed constrict attack (no contested roll spend an action 16 DC to end).

Level 7: can choose to either keep 16 AC with Barskin or get resistance to physical damage with stoneskin (If an ally casts mage armor back up to 15 AC as a giant constrictor).

Level 9: 68 hp twice at 15 AC (ankylosaurus) stoneskin to gain resistance to physical damage. Strength save DC 14 on hit or be knocked prone.

Level 10: earth elemental is really fun for earth glide; grapples and submerge all but the grabbing appendage 126 hp 17 AC and 3/4 cover + stoneskin = epic lulz.

Level 12: terrible tier of beasts probably best to just polymorph into a giant ape or t-rex a bunch. Stegosaurus has 76 hp and 13 AC so...do with that what you will.

Level 15: 121 hp 15 AC per wildshape DC 14 str save or prone (brontosaurus).

Level 17: shapechange 1/day into a CR 17 creature (Dragon Turtle 341 HP 20 AC but concentration) or Foresight for Disadvantage on all incoming attack rolls (and all that other stuff).

Level 18: mammoth isn't much of an improvement for tanking.

20: infinite wildshapes. Shape change 1/day into an Ogremoch (526 hp 20 AC).

[Talamare]

[SPOILER=AT Rogue]
V. Human (Moderately Armored)
base: 14/15/15/8/10/8, racial: +1 STR/CON

Typo? I'm assuming you meant +1 DEX/CON?

----------
Also, are we allowing MC?
Rogue benefits massively from being able to

Take 1 Level in Fighter and we have fixed most of the AC issues.
Which allows you take Magic Initiate for Absorb Elements

Lv1 Fighter, Magic Initiate = Shield Spell
Lv2 Rogue
Lv5 Rogue, +2 DEX
Lv8 Rogue, Evasion

Lv1 AC - 14+2(Dex)+2(Shield)+1(Style) = 19 AC with Shield +5 once per day.
Lv5 AC - 15+Same = 20 AC, Shield or Absorb Element - 4x per day
Lv9 AC - 12+5(Dex)+Same = 20 AC, AC stays the same, but switching to Light Armor means you no longer have disadvantage.

[Strangways]

But for just lasting in a fight, you may never hit an EK in full plate with shield and shield spell and the blur spell.

The power of the blur spell is it causes disadvantage, 99% of the time ruining a possible crit rolled by the enemy. Whereas the shield spell does not stop a critical hit, because all rolled 20's are an automatic hit regardless of AC. Blur causes disadvantage and rarely does anyone roll double 20's

It's even worse than 99% of the time. The odds of getting a pair of 20s on a 2d20 roll is much less than 1%.

One of the reasons I like to play wizards is their versatility at targeting an opponent's weak points. A successful attack roll against an EK in full plate and shield, who has Blur up and is willing to burn slots on Shield, is a near-impossible proposition. You have to target their mental saving throws (INT, WIS, or CHA) to win that fight.

[Talamare]

It's even worse than 99% of the time. The odds of getting a pair of 20s on a 2d20 roll is much less than 1%.

One of the reasons I like to play wizards is their versatility at targeting an opponent's weak points. A successful attack roll against an EK in full plate and shield, who has Blur up and is willing to burn slots on Shield, is a near-impossible proposition. You have to target their mental saving throws (INT, WIS, or CHA) to win that fight.

0.05 * 0.05 = 0.0025
0.0025 * 100 = 0.25%

Altho, any Save would win that fight, it doesn't need to be Mental
Str, Dex, Con would also work


You can completely disable an opponents Blur by closing your eyes when you make an attack!
This is 100% RAW! 100% FACT! If you close your eyes when making an attack against an opponent using Blur, his Blur will NOT take effect.

[PhoenixPhyre]

0.05 * 0.05 = 0.0025
0.0025 * 100 = 0.25%

Altho, any Save would win that fight, it doesn't need to be Mental
Str, Dex, Con would also work


You can completely disable an opponents Blur by closing your eyes when you make an attack!
This is 100% RAW! 100% FACT! If you close your eyes when making an attack against an opponent using Blur, his Blur will NOT take effect.


Yes, that was a copy/paste error.

And if you close your eyes, you have disadvantage anyway. Better to get advantage to cancel it.

Oh, and MC is such a pain to simulate that I don’t have it in there yet. I could, but that’s gonna take a whole separate build process.

[Talamare]

Yes, that was a copy/paste error.

And if you close your eyes, you have disadvantage anyway. Better to get advantage to cancel it.

Oh, and MC is such a pain to simulate that I don’t have it in there yet. I could, but that’s gonna take a whole separate build process.

I honestly agree that it is, but I think that the Rogue gains enough from this for it to be worth checking out



Take 1 Level in Fighter and we have fixed most of the AC issues.
Which allows you take Magic Initiate for Absorb Elements

Lv1 Fighter, Magic Initiate = Shield Spell
Lv2 Rogue
Lv5 Rogue, +2 DEX
Lv8 Rogue, Evasion
Lv9 Rogue, +2 DEX

Lv1 AC - 14+2(Dex)+2(Shield)+1(Style) = 19 AC with Shield +5 once per day.
Lv5 AC - 15+Same = 20 AC, Shield or Absorb Element - 4x per day
Lv9 AC - 12+5(Dex)+Same = 20 AC, AC stays the same, but switching to Light Armor means you no longer have disadvantage.

[Lonely Tylenol]

A Paladin build could consist of...

Vuman (+1 Str/Cha, Shield Master or HAM)
15/8/15/8/8/15
Equip: Chain Mail, Shield, Plate at 5
1) Lay On Hands
2) Defense fighting style, Shield of Faith
3) Divine Health, Oath of Redemption
4) Resilient (Con) or (whichever of Shield Master/HAM you didn’t take)
6) Aura of Protection
8) The last of Shield Master/Resilient (Con)/HAM you haven’t taken
10) Aura of Courage
12/16/19) Alternate Str/Con (or, as I prefer, Con/Cha) as necessary.
13) Stoneskin, Aura of Purity
14) Cleansing Touch
15) Protective Spirit
20) Emissary of Redemption 1/LR

That’s a build that gets Con and Wis saving throw proficiency, plus (from 6) an additional +3-5 to all saves (shoring up weak saves), plus the shield’s AC bonus to Dex saves; a 23 AC from level 5, when using Shield of Faith; immunity to disease and the frightened condition; and your choice of resistance to common damage forms or advantage on saves which confer conditions, until 20, when you can have both; regeneration of between 8 and 16 HP/turn, depending on level; and an ability that lets you literally sponge damage, if you are not capable of making enough trouble for your enemy to attack you. (You will be behind the offensive curve by not maxing Str, and you may fail to max two stats at all if you take too many feats.) Your party additionally gains some defensive benefits (from your auras and damage soak ability).

Probably someone can improve on this Paladin, but it’s at least a build that can be used to start.

Edit: Personally, I feel like the Paladin tank is improved a lot by ditching the last 4 levels and going Hexblade instead, which, in different quantities, lets you go Cha SAD, gives Shield and Blur as defensive options, and replaces the missing ABI. (You get most of the same effect with Hexblade 1, which is less messy.) But, for single-class purposes, here is *a* build.

[Zalabim]

I too think the EK should consider Heavy Armor Mastery. Also consider Resilient towards the later levels for Dexterity or Wisdom.

Then this is really important: the Rogue build used doesn't function. It has to put away either its shield or its sword in order to cast Shield. There's just no way to manage the Somatic component as a reaction without Warcaster.


I mean, the point of this is which of these builds is the best at surviving sustained damage. It's an incomplete definition of the tank role in a party, which is why the comparison starts falling apart as you add in these other parts. That's because there are few mechanical methods of ensuring aggro, since aggro is dependent on how your DM envisions his/her monsters attacking.

But take out the need to hold aggro (such as there aren't any other party members, it's just one character defending a point) and this isn't a bad way to see which is better among these 3 builds.
If it doesn't represent any real scenario, then it's a bad way to see anything useful. You can look for the highest EHP build if you want, but there's no practical reason to if you can't use it. There are ways to influence who an enemy attacks, and if you have none of them, you aren't a tank. The original builds don't really have this problem, though some may be better at that aspect than others.

[qube]

This not to mention any good DM will respond with good role play.

The paladin or guy in plate screaming creative insults and taunts will always draw tons of agro.
yeah ... but between the guy so plated up ya can't see even an inch of flesh hurling insults, and the unarmored guy hurling fireballs, and ... I know I'd be knifing first :smallwink:

[JellyPooga]

The Rogue build doesn't want Medium Armour Master. As a Tank, Disadvantage on Stealth is irrelevant and +1 AC is a waste of a Feat. Better to grab Warcaster to allow the AT to cast with his hands full and shore up his concentration saves, or take Sentinel to increase his ability to draw attention.

He also doesn't really need to improve Dex from its "base" of 16 (even then, he's really only using it for initiative and attack rolls). You could even get away with leaving Dex at 14 and focusing more on Str and Wis (after Con) to improve his Saves vs. all those spells and conditions resisted by it that hamper mobility (and thus your ability to effectively tank).

[Gardakan]

A Druid with 1 level of Barbarian that goes circle of the moon can actually tank quite a lot of damage.

The Druid gains back his shapes in a short rest and if you feel like you need to bring in more resistance, you can use wisely your rage (yeah, raging with a high Wisdom can lead to some potent control has backstory).

Druid in Barbarian is actually a tank with a high amount of utility.

[Davrix]

yeah ... but between the guy so plated up ya can't see even an inch of flesh hurling insults, and the unarmored guy hurling fireballs, and ... I know I'd be knifing first :smallwink:

True but insults are just one part of my agro logic. So many creative ways to annoy someone. Also why taking levels in sorc is great :) Prestidigitation is a must for any shenanigans tanking kit.

But joking aside just be smart, you may go try to knife the cleric but a good plate wearer will imminently respond and make that person very very sorry for even trying such a thing. And as long as your creative in how you word things and your DM isn't well... dumb aggro can be hand in many ways. Now if the DM just wants to beat on the caster and ignore you because "tactics" No amount of abilities or role play is gonna save the cloth dude.

This is why I like having Misty step on my paladin. You try to stab my caster. POOF double smite hit.