build concept: Vuman Prodigy Grappler

[Foxhound438]

So the idea here is that you can get expertise in athletics at level 1 thanks to the prodigy feat in Xan's guide. This makes grappling builds a bit easier to pull off than they were before, where you would have to dip either rogue or bard to get expertise or not have it at all. That's 2 or 3 levels of multiclassing that you can now save for something more focused.

Start out as a variant human with the following stats, plus or minus a bit wherever:

16/10/16/8/10/13, prodigy on athletics, as a fighter with dueling style, and any one handed martial weapon

Level 2 you get action surge, so if you do decide to grab someone you can follow up with a shove prone or just a hit with your sword

Level 3 choose battlemaster so that you can grapple something and follow up with an action surged tripping attack to get damage, prone, and grappled all in the first round

Level 4 just increase strength; normally fighters would be going for PAM or GWM or their ranged equivalents here, but you're just using a one handed melee weapon, so none of those really apply

Level 5 you have extra attack so you can preserve action surge and still get grapple-prone in the first round of combat.

After that my recommendation is to take 3 or 4 levels of sorcerer so you can quicken enlarge/reduce on yourself to allow yourself to grapple huge creatures (and the extra d4 of damage is nice, though not great on its own). My recommendation is 4, since you get an extra SP allowing for a second quicken on something like a green flame blade without having to convert a slot, but depending on where you expect to have your campaign end it might be more worth to have an extra level of fighter ultimately. Another spell to seriously consider here is cloud of daggers, since if you are grappling against a medium or large creature you can use your concentration to deal a relatively large amount of no-save damage. The other spells you take should probably be utility or buff spells to make yourself less dependent on having high charisma, like shield, feather fall, absorb elements, and misty step. Unfortunately you can't have all of the spells you could possibly want, but you should have more than you ever really need. Sorcerer origin is probably celestial for the +2d4 to a save, but shadow's free death ward and darkvision is also worth considering.

[Davrix]

Ive really been wanting to play with a grapple build but what about the grapple feat?

and oh man could you imagine this with a belt of giant str and enlarge? Did someone say suplex a dragon?

[Foxhound438]

Ive really been wanting to play with a grapple build but what about the grapple feat?

and oh man could you imagine this with a belt of giant str and enlarge? Did someone say suplex a dragon?

the grappler feat unfortunately doesn't do any good for this build in particular. You should already have advantage to hit the thing you're grappling because it will be prone, and the restraining effect is entirely redundant.

[Davrix]

the grappler feat unfortunately doesn't do any good for this build in particular. You should already have advantage to hit the thing you're grappling because it will be prone, and the restraining effect is entirely redundant.

Ah that's very true

What about something like shield master?

I am unsure of how the action economy works sometimes. I know you can move hit move and hit again but could you per say. Move, hit, take bonus action to knock to ground and then grapple as your second hit. This is of coarse if you have your multi-attack at 5.

[Foxhound438]

Ah that's very true

What about something like shield master?

I am unsure of how the action economy works sometimes. I know you can move hit move and hit again but could you per say. Move, hit, take bonus action to knock to ground and then grapple as your second hit. This is of coarse if you have your multi-attack at 5.

You can definitely do that, but you run into the issue of hands economy. You would need one hand for the shield and one hand for holding the target, and you're out of hands and have to use unarmed strikes. One workaround that's probably worth looking at is to hunt down a lizardfolk warrior and loot the spiked shield- in this edition, it's just a d6 weapon while also being a shield, and doesn't lose the benefit of being a shield when you attack with it. Aside from that you could go a totally different direction, using lizardfolk or the old UA minotaur as your race, but then you can't take prodigy and need to dip rogue or bard if you want athletic expertise. In that build you could also pick a different subclass since the shield master feat will do the job of knocking things prone. Eldritch knight eventually gives you enlarge, so I'd go for that so you can be two classed instead of three.

The other good option with shield master is to forget about grappling altogether, and just be happy with the free advantage that knocking prone gives you and your melee allies, and just knock them down each turn.

[Unoriginal]

Nice concept. Well done, Foxhound438.

Though it does seem rather ressource-costly, from what I understand.

[Davrix]

You can definitely do that, but you run into the issue of hands economy. You would need one hand for the shield and one hand for holding the target, and you're out of hands and have to use unarmed strikes. One workaround that's probably worth looking at is to hunt down a lizardfolk warrior and loot the spiked shield- in this edition, it's just a d6 weapon while also being a shield, and doesn't lose the benefit of being a shield when you attack with it. Aside from that you could go a totally different direction, using lizardfolk or the old UA minotaur as your race, but then you can't take prodigy and need to dip rogue or bard if you want athletic expertise. In that build you could also pick a different subclass since the shield master feat will do the job of knocking things prone. Eldritch knight eventually gives you enlarge, so I'd go for that so you can be two classed instead of three.

This is why I cant fathom Shield master doesn't give you your shield as a weapon. Would it be that unfair in taking the feat to let it be a 1d6+str bludgeoning weapon? I mean its a giant hunk of metal it should bloody hurt when you swing it. Especially if you take the feat that calls you its master.

[BigONotation]

This is why I cant fathom Shield master doesn't give you your shield as a weapon. Would it be that unfair in taking the feat to let it be a 1d6+str bludgeoning weapon? I mean its a giant hunk of metal it should bloody hurt when you swing it. Especially if you take the feat that calls you its master.

It wouldn't hurt to homebrew a more offensive version of the Shieldmaster feat, but adding to the already powerful feat would be too much.

[Foxhound438]

Nice concept. Well done, Foxhound438.

Though it does seem rather ressource-costly, from what I understand.

it is, definitely so when you need to burn one of the few slots you have for enlarge, but it's enough to get through 2 or 3 encounters at full steam against huge enemies. In a 6 encounter day, you're most likely going to not actually need to enlarge for most of them- though there's definitely times where that wouldn't be the case, and you're stuck being "longsword guy" against huge or colossal enemies...

[Specter]

The only reason I see to take Sorcerer is bad teamplay. If you have a Wiz/Sorc in the group and you're efficient, he should buff you. Wasting your turn and tainting your build for that is just not considering the party at all. Other than that, good plan.

[Quoz]

Tavern Brawler is probably a better add than shield master for most builds. It grants 1d4 for improvised attacks and unarmed strikes and let's you grapple as a bonus action. This let's you keep your shield as a primary weapon without losing the AC bonus, and if you want to grapple a second opponent you just drop the shield or do a Captain America shield throw with a battlemaster rider. For a wider selection of races if UA is available the brawny feat is probably better than prodigy. +1 str or con, expertise, and double encumberance (different GMs may interpret this for how you move a grapple)

Here is the build I'm looking at for an upcoming campaign:
Firbolg 16/14/14/8/14/8
Fighter 1/rogue 1/fighter 2-5/rogue 2-3 (haven't planned past that far)

Battlemaster at fighter 3 w/ disarm, trip, and menace
Tavern Brawler at fighter 4
Trickster at rogue 3. Mostly for shield, and to gain access to scrolls of find familiar for help actions. One cantrip will go mold earth so I can dig a well to drop people in if I have time for battlefield prep.

Not fully optimized, but looking fun to play. Strongly considering Lizardfolk for the unarmed strike, and the fact that my GM would probably let me get a 3rd grapple by bite and hold.

[prototype00]

Tavern Brawler is probably a better add than shield master for most builds. It grants 1d4 for improvised attacks and unarmed strikes and let's you grapple as a bonus action. This let's you keep your shield as a primary weapon without losing the AC bonus, and if you want to grapple a second opponent you just drop the shield or do a Captain America shield throw with a battlemaster rider. For a wider selection of races if UA is available the brawny feat is probably better than prodigy. +1 str or con, expertise, and double encumberance (different GMs may interpret this for how you move a grapple)

Here is the build I'm looking at for an upcoming campaign:
Firbolg 16/14/14/8/14/8
Fighter 1/rogue 1/fighter 2-5/rogue 2-3 (haven't planned past that far)

Battlemaster at fighter 3 w/ disarm, trip, and menace
Tavern Brawler at fighter 4
Trickster at rogue 3. Mostly for shield, and to gain access to scrolls of find familiar for help actions. One cantrip will go mold earth so I can dig a well to drop people in if I have time for battlefield prep.

Not fully optimized, but looking fun to play. Strongly considering Lizardfolk for the unarmed strike, and the fact that my GM would probably let me get a 3rd grapple by bite and hold.

Doffing a shield by RAW is a full action. Its not good action economy to ever drop your shield in combat.

prototype00

[PeteNutButter]

I had thought of a similar build before, but I feel it runs into a couple traps.

First, as a general rule of thumb, I [almost] never take a feat that can be replicated by a 1 level dip in another class. Provided MCing is on the table, you spend essentially 4 levels to get something you could get in 1. The MC character is essentially 3 levels ahead in str/feats. It’s not as bad on a V Human, but it’s the same effect if you plan to take any other feat. Tavern Brawler is a good one for grapplers, for its action economy.

Second, since you aren’t an Orc/Goliath you are lacking powerful build, an essential feature if you want to make the most of grappling IMO. Grappling loses a good chunk of its power if you lack the ability to move your grappled foe.

I’m not saying it’s bad, just that it’ll probably not be any better than existing pre-Xanathar grapple builds.