3.5 Gish builds request

[Chaosticket]

Im interested in Gish builds with the usual goal of High BAB(16+ by level 20) and high tier casting(tier 6-9 and caster level 16+ by 20).

I looked up a quite specific build using a Bard/paladin of Freedom/abjurant champion/eldritch knight/sublime cord. A bit too specific because high skill requirements.

I didnt enough know of the Abjurant champion until a week ago. Its pretty much on all my future Gish Builds on top of the Eldritch Knight.

[Mike Miller]

Yea, gishes can be fun. Was there something in particular you were looking for?

[tyckspoon]

Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5 is a keystone of most arcane gish builds; almost any combination of entry classes that lets you get into that will probably work. The 'Sorcadin' is a classic leveraging Charisma benefits- Paladin 2 for BAB, weapon/armor proficiency and Divine Grace, Sorceror 4 for the requisite level of spellcasting and BAB to enter Spellsword, Spellsword 1 gets you a point of BAB that qualifies you for Abjurant Champion. Finish off with Eldritch Knight/Swiftblade/Knight of the Phantom or go book-diving for more classes with +1 BAB/+1 level spellcasting - there's a good handful around, but it's up to you if you want to spend the assorted skill points and feats required to get into all of them.

Crusader/(Wizard or Sorcerer)/Jade Phoenix Mage would be a similar approach if you want to work with Tome of Battle instead, although you have to decide if you want to pursue maneuvers or spellcasting after you finish JPM - there isn't another manuever+casting gishing class that I know of.

Most full casters can more or less gish by focusing on self-buff and combat boost spells; divine classes are usually better for this, as they generally get medium or full BAB to arcane class's poor BAB progression.

Psionics can use the Slayer PRC, which is basically Eldritch Knight for psionics only you also get to have some actual class features. Psion 10/Slayer 10 is a reasonably workable gish if you pick your powers well, but you probably want to sub a couple of the Psion levels for something else with full BAB so you can hit at least the +16 BAB benchmark. There's a few more obscure prestige classes you could use, or just throw in Ranger to more easily meet Slayer's entry requirements and call it a day.

If you want to gish from level 1, you pretty much have to use one of the gish-in-a-can base classes. Duskblade and Psychic Warrior are the ones that work the best, IMO; Psychic Warrior is actually mid BAB, but it makes up for it with a selection of combat buffs and an unusually high selection of naturally Swift or Immediate powers so it can buff with minor actions and spend its main actions on beating face.

[Eldariel]

Arcane gishes come in all shapes, sizes and forms. Thus you really need to narrow it down. Some options I could think of off the top of my head:


The most generic arcane "gish" is persisting (Spelldancer, Incantatrix or some such) Divine Power (acquired through Arcane Disciple or other means) on a full caster shell giving you 20 levels of casting and full BAB. These can be literally any arcane builds with 1 level of Spelldancer or 3 levels of Incantatrix.
Wizard 6/Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 9/Abjurant Champion 5. Loses a lot of casting but gets a super-Haste as a payoff. The last level of Swiftblade is not worth it compared to 9th level spells but the rest of the benefits are pretty nifty.
Martial 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight-or-Knight Phantom 9/Abjurant Champion 5. Simple, not very fancy, but perfectly playable.
Martial 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. Simple, when you want to get two levels of a martial this still gets you 18th level casting and BAB 16.
Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight-or-Knight Phantom 9/Abjurant 5. Requires the Militia feat [Player's Guide to Faerun] or Outsider-type (or Giant - both get martial weapon proficiencies from race). Outsider-type can be gained through Otherworldly-feat [PGtF].
Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Sacred Exorcist 4. A pretty cute full casting Arcane Archer: most notably Imbue Arrow to fire Antimagic Fields at enemies and Divine Might for Cha to damage. Add Charming the Arrow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a) if you have the Fey-type (Unseelie Fey and Half-Fey are the reasonable RAW options for an Elf, though making Elves Fey isn't unreasonable either) for almost complete Charisma SAD.
Wu Jen 5/Crusader 1 [any ToB works]/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4. Wu Jen spells have some cute synergies with Jade Phoenix Mage. Notably Transcend Mortality + Emerald Immolation, but simple stuff like Giant Size and Body Outside Body can also do all sorts of sweet stuff. Of course, Emerald Immolation + Transcend Mortality requires level 20 so meh.


That's of course only scraping the surface. Classes like Runesmith (can wear heavy armor while casting), Spellguard of Silverymoon (can cast Abjurations on others), etc. are worth mentioning but if you accept persistomancy, any class is just as good a gish as the next. Do peruse the Gish Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook) as well.

[Awakeninfinity]

If your looking for spell suggestions; I'd recommend avoiding damage spells like fireball- in my experience a gish's damage is best augmented through pre-battle buffing and the Arcane strike feat. Haste is very useful (especially with friends) and Slow is very useful for holding off a small army of almost anything by yourself if need be. I myself had Heightened spell solely for Slow (although my gm likes to optimize). I do believe you can power attack and arcane strike in the same turn iirc. Lastly I'd recommend Vampiric Touch; It'll help make any traditional(i.e. warrior/mage) gish survivable throughout the game. However, every game is different- so your mileage may vary.

Edit: Classwise I'd recommend Sorcerer for more spells per day for the caster side.

[Chaosticket]

Very useful suggestions.

Paladin multiclass is tricky of course. Divine Grace would be fantastic in a heavy Charisma caster build but I dont know if there is a Neutral Paladin to work better with it. Paladin of Freedom is at least better than than Lawful Stupid default.

[Fouredged Sword]

A very simple and pure gish is wizard 6 / ruthar 3 / abjurant champion 5 / legacy champion 6. Swift abjurations up to 6th level and so very much ac.

[Andezzar]

Martial 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight-or-Knight Phantom 9/Abjurant Champion 5. Simple, not very fancy, but perfectly playable.
If you use an outsider race or take the Militia feat, you can drop the martial level for more spellcasting

[Mr Adventurer]

I actually had fun with a Fighter 4/Sorcerer 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Human Paragon 3/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 3. BAB +18, sorcerer spellcasting level 13 (with caster level equal to HD thanks to Abjurant Champion and Practiced Spellcaster), and lots of tricks to use Sorcerer spell slots thanks to Abjurant Champion and the Sorcerer ACF that replaces your familiar. Also 6 bonus feats to complete a Weapon Specialisation feat chain. Definitely a lower optimisation build, and more of a warrior with a few magic tricks - but that's what I wanted!

[Chaosticket]

Not quite there. Goal is 16+ BAB and tier 9 spells.

[Mr Adventurer]

If you're talking to me, yeah, I know. It was just a fun gish build I thought I'd share my experience on.

[Coretron03]

Not quite there. Goal is 16+ BAB and tier 9 spells.

Thats the goal for a gish typically but thst doesn't prevent other builds from being. Would you say a duskblade isn't a gish? What about the pathfinder magus? I would say they qualify as gishes, even if they don't hit the 16 bab/9th level spells benchmark.

I do, however, feel obliged to point out that you could have been a fighter 3 sorcerer 2, then taking a level of spellsword for one level before you enter abjurant champion, trading a fighter bonus feat for a caster level, letting you get 2nd level spells at level 7 and at level 20 giving you 7th level spells (or more accurately, spell and a couple lower level ones). I personally wouldn't take more than 1 spellsword level though because it gives relatively few benefits. Even if you don't feel like entering a more powerful PRC, taking 2 more levels in Eldritch knight instead of 2 levels in spellsword, would have given you slightly better spell casting in exhchange for a feat and some lowered arcane spell failure.

Of course, this is probably pointless, but i felt like adding it anyway

Edit: Ignore the first paragraph, didn't reliase you were the op and had and wanted a gish with certain spells and BaB

[Anthrowhale]

Clerics deserve mention. They have heavy armor proficiency and can persist spells at level 1.

[Coretron03]

Clerics deserve mention. They have heavy armor proficiency and can persist spells at level 1.

Level 1 is a bit early, as the persist combo requires 3 feats (Extend Spell, Persistent spell and Divne metamagic:Persist) and 18 Cha unless you want to take extra turning. You can take the planning domain for extend spell though, and undeath can get you extra turning for free. Even with both of those though, you still need to be a human/other race with a bonus feat or have flaws allowed. Still, there aren't too many good spells to persist at level one (Bless maybe?).

Once you level up a bit though, persist is a very powerful. Persistent divine power is a classic and persistent mass vigor solves all of your healing problems out of combat, cloud of knives gives you an at-will, no action cost ranged attack all day, plus tons of other gish spells. They just aren't too good at level one.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For +16 BAB and 9th level spells at 20th, there are a lot of ways you can do it. A fairly standard start is BAB Class 2/ Spellcaster 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5, then spend your last eight levels getting 6/8 BAB or higher with 8/8 spellcasting if Sorcerer, or 7/8 spellcasting if Wizard.

For the standard start, a good variant is Human or Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm) 1/ BAB Class 1/ Spellcaster 2/ Human or Elf Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion. This gets the same amount of BAB and spellcasting in the same number of levels, but better class features, skills, and HD.

For the last eight levels, a Sorcerer's only good choice is Sacred Exorcist, but since you're a Fiend of Possession those would be polar opposites so that should be off the table. For a Wizard you have a lot of good choices. Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) is an obvious choice, but you can afford to lose two more BAB, so why not do it gaining something awesome. I'd prefer to finish with Incantatrix 4/ Eldritch Knight/Knight Phantom 4, which gets the 6/8 BAB and 7/8 spellcasting you need for +16 and 9ths. That also gives you amazing persistent spell shenanigans.

At level 21, you don't need to worry if anything after 20th gives BAB or good saves, but you want to spend those levels getting class features and progressing your spellcasting. Paragnostic Apostle is fantastic for one or two levels if you can benefit from Mind Over Matter (Greater Luminous/Mage Armor) or Spatial Awareness (Haste, Persistent Elation). Divine Oracle is good for up to four levels to get Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, you can get its feat prerequisite from the Frog God's Fane in CS without spending a feat on it. More Incantatrix is always a good choice, and Master Specialist could be useful. Classes that lose out on a little spellcasting are probably worth considering after 20th, like Fatespinner.

Consider using a level-adjusted race or template, assuming it was bought off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) by the current level. You'll probably want to use Persistent Draconic Polymorph to turn into a War Troll or similar, so physical stats won't matter, so go with something that gives unique and powerful special abilities, like Vecna-Blooded (MMV, God-Blooded template). That's especially useful if the character is also using Persistent Greater/Superior Invisibility every day.

Also consider taking Arcane Disciple (Zarus) for the Destiny domain, to have Persistent Choose Destiny (9th) active all the time. A Human, formerly Vecna-Blooded (retaining Cloak of Mysteries), who worships Zarus should be a good fit.

[Anthrowhale]

Level 1 is a bit early, as the persist combo requires 3 feats (Extend Spell, Persistent spell and Divne metamagic:Persist) and 18 Cha unless you want to take extra turning. You can take the planning domain for extend spell though, and undeath can get you extra turning for free. Even with both of those though, you still need to be a human/other race with a bonus feat or have flaws allowed. Still, there aren't too many good spells to persist at level one (Bless maybe?).

Bless is good for whole-party optimization but Divine Favor is better for personal optimization. If flaws are available, you might consider the Shield spell via the Divine Magician ACF. Neither of these are as dramatic as barbarian rage but since they last all day without drawbacks they end up having a greater mechanical advantage.

Persistent cleric spells do get much better with spell level.

[Gruftzwerg]

Do you count warlock invocations as "high tier casting"? If yes, how about a clawlock build? They are simple to play and have good action economy compared to regular gish builds, since their few buffs usually last 24h.

[Kurald Galain]

Practically speaking, unless your campaign starts at high level, a good goal for a gish is getting the ability to cast and attack in the same turn as early as possible. This means that Magus and Warpriest are your best options, and Duskblade is decent with its swift action spells. It's no fun if your build doesn't come online before the campaign is over. At higher levels, add prestige classes as normal.

For example, Magus 7 / Virtuoso 1 / Sublime Chord 6 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Magus +1 is a solid build, as the Magus's enchant weapon ability makes it effectively full-BAB.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, you have 3 types of gish. You have battle caster gishes who want to cast and fight at the same time. You have buff gishes who won't need to cast during combat due to reliance on long term buffs. Finally you have wizards with swords who won't suffer too much from hqving to stick to casting for a while and simply act as a tough wizard.

[Chaosticket]

Hold on please.

Okay I am far more inexperienced at D&d character design then I thought. Thats not a bad thing as it means I am learning from veterans.

I know some some things. Single class characters like the Druid and Cleric are Gish in spirit by being able to fight and cast spells. Direct damage is not the best area, especially for Divine Magic but using crowd control and buffing spells are better. Any enemy not attacking means you just made your fight easier.

Gish builds to my understanding are multiclassed to be warrior/casters, with the goal being to make a high tier character with 16+ BAB and tier 6-9 spellcasting. Its not likely to be perfect but still way above a Fighter or Ranger. Ideally you can take the theme of core classes and design better ones.

[Kurald Galain]

Gish builds to my understanding are multiclassed to be warrior/casters, with the goal being to make a high tier character with 16+ BAB and tier 6-9 spellcasting. Its not likely to be perfect but still way above a Fighter or Ranger. Ideally you do just take core classes and design better ones.

They don't have to be multiclassed, as long as they can both fight and cast. Several classes, notably hexblade, duskblade, and Magus, are designed to be a single-class gish.

Also, whether they hit a particular benchmark at level 20 is only relevant if your campaign gets that high in the first place (and most campaigns don't). Or if you're looking purely for a theoretical build, of course.

[Eldariel]

They don't have to be multiclassed, as long as they can both fight and cast. Several classes, notably hexblade, duskblade, and Magus, are designed to be a single-class gish.

Also, whether they hit a particular benchmark at level 20 is only relevant if your campaign gets that high in the first place (and most campaigns don't). Or if you're looking purely for a theoretical build, of course.

That said, classes hitting that benchmark pull ahead every level after they hit their PRC point generally. For instance, a Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 6 can be rocking 6th level spells while still having 9 BAB (equivalent to a level 12 Cleric, with the notable cave-at that Cleric is a Divine Power away from full BAB of course) with all the power that entails (Contingency, Antimagic Field, Planar Binding, True Seeing, Disintegrate just off the top of my head in Core). Considering the options opened up by any level of spells, this is pretty huge compared to medium casters (Bard is at level 4 spells) or half casters (they're at level 3 spells). It's just a whole different ballgame between full casting, near full casting, and butchered casting once the level 3 spell breakpoint is hit (that is to say, level 5+ casting).

[Chaosticket]

Im more familiar with Pathfinder classes.

There are a lot of 15bab/level 6 spellcasters.

Warpriest has a limited ability to turn buffs spells into Swift actions but also a high number of bonus combat feats.

Magus can use light armor and later unlock medium and heavy heavy armor. Touch attack spells can be used as part of a Full Attack or channeled through a weapon, gaining a critical threat range.

Other single classes in Pathfinder have similar abilities to cover weaknesses in combat though not benefitting casting as much.

To be clear these are examples from Pathfinder, not 3.5.

[Fouredged Sword]

A gish is, in theory, anything with 16/11/6/1 bab and 9th level spell. Specifically one that intends to both fight with weapons AND fill the roll of full caster.

They range in complexity from cleric 20 (16 bab 20 cl) to massive dip piles like wizard 1 / fighter 1 / wizard 1 / master specialist 4 / ruathar 3 / abjurant champion 5 / spellsword 1 / dragonslayer 1 / eldrich knight 3 (bab 16 18cl)

[Eldariel]

A gish is, in theory, anything with 16/11/6/1 bab and 9th level spell. Specifically one that intends to both fight with weapons AND fill the roll of full caster.

They range in complexity from cleric 20 (16 bab 20 cl) to massive dip piles like wizard 1 / fighter 1 / wizard 1 / master specialist 4 / ruathar 3 / abjurant champion 5 / spellsword 1 / dragonslayer 1 / eldrich knight 3 (bab 16 18cl)

Cleric 20 has 15 BAB without Divine Power. You need e.g. Knight of the Raven, Ordained Champion, Ruby Knight Windicator or company to hit 16 BAB on a divine caster without using buffs or such, thus losing casting.

[Chaosticket]

What about Sublime Cord? 1-4 levels of Bard, maybe Paladin, and Skill Focus to get required skills up by level 10 so level 11 is Sublime Cord. After that any Bab 1/caster 1 prestige class words. Its how the build I mentioned in the opening works.

[DEMON]

What about Sublime Cord? 1-4 levels of Bard, maybe Paladin, and Skill Focus to get required skills up by level 10 so level 11 is Sublime Cord. After that any Bab 1/caster 1 prestige class words. Its how the build I mentioned in the opening works.

Unless this is some kind of houserule your table is using, Skill Focus does nothing for your skill ranks.
You should still be able to qualify for Sublime Chord by level 10, though, as that is when you hit the 13 ranks on class skills limit.

[Kurald Galain]

That said, classes hitting that benchmark pull ahead every level after they hit their PRC point generally.
Only if you're willing to completely overlook the action economy advantage of certain class features.

[Eldariel]

Only if you're willing to completely overlook the action economy advantage of certain class features.

That's not really relevant regarding staying in the casting curve. Full casters are always full casters; higher level spells are ultimately the strongest thing in the game. Swinging a sword and casting a spell in the same round really just doesn't compare to Planar Bindings, Simulacrum, Polymorph Any Object, Gate or the like even on a gish shell. But it can be cool so there's certainly nothing wrong with enjoying lower powered options.

[Chaosticket]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Battle_Knight_Bard_of_Sublime_Chord_(3.5e_Optimize d_Character_Build)#Standard_25_point_buy

Hers the 18bab/18 caster build I keep mentioning.

[DEMON]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Battle_Knight_Bard_of_Sublime_Chord_(3.5e_Optimize d_Character_Build)#Standard_25_point_buy

Hers the 18bab/18 caster build I keep mentioning.

I must be missing something. Why does the build need Aereni Focus and thus need to be Elf?

[tyckspoon]

I must be missing something. Why does the build need Aereni Focus and thus need to be Elf?

Makes a skill into a class skill, presumably regardless of what class you're currently taking. I can definitely see that being useful for a Sublime Chord build, which has skill pre-reqs that seem to be based on taking Bard or another high-skill class all the way into it; if you're dipping martial classes or most other Gish PrCs, you're giving up a lot of the skill points you need to get into Sublime Chord. Original poster of the build may also have the misunderstanding that the Skill Focus aspect of it would count towards the PRC qualification.

[Chaosticket]

I dont know. It actually looks like a solid build until I look up the Sublime Chord until I see it needs 48 skill ranks in 5 class skills. Not impossible, even easy with 24 from level 1 bard I think.

Star Elf has +2 charisma and favored class is Bard.
Humans have extra skill points which makes it far easier to reach 48.

I think Aereni Focus and Knowledge Devotion make class skills permanent, regardless of current class. That would be key to reaching full requirements.

[DEMON]

Makes a skill into a class skill, presumably regardless of what class you're currently taking. I can definitely see that being useful for a Sublime Chord build, which has skill pre-reqs that seem to be based on taking Bard or another high-skill class all the way into it; if you're dipping martial classes or most other Gish PrCs, you're giving up a lot of the skill points you need to get into Sublime Chord.

I understand that, but there are way better options to pull it off.

Able learner does it way better and also gives you +1 skill point (if human).
And, of course, Going Brd 1 / Pal 2 / Brd +3 handles the skill ranks without the need of any feats. Okay, now I get it, it's because Abjurant Champion, nor Eldritch Knight get Listen and you need to have that skill maxed. That's what I was missing. Still, Able Learner works.
Maybe Harmonious Knight (Paladin ACF; CoV), which fits thematically and gives the Pally a useful class skill. Milil is an acceptable option for Paladins of Freedom, too.


Original poster of the build may also have the misunderstanding that the Skill Focus aspect of it would count towards the PRC qualification.

That would explain it, if it's the case. While incorrect, one can see the logic behind that.

[Chaosticket]

The two hardest requirements Sublime Chord build are knowledge(arcana) and listen. They need to be 13 before level 11 meaning they need to be class skills for the higher rank cap.

Knowledge Devotion explicitly carries over. Aereni Focus is a probably.

Skill focus doesnt work as it doesnt make it a class skill.
Able learner is good as it doubles cross-skill points' points to ranks but doesnt actually make Listen or Arcana class skills.

Im going to look for an alternative to Aereni Focus as that is setting specific.

[tyckspoon]

The two hardest requirements Sublime Chord build are knowledge(arcana) and listen. They need to be 13 before level 11 meaning they need to be class skills for the higher rank cap.

Knowledge Devotion explicitly carries over. Aereni Focus is a probably.

For purposes of max rank, if a skill has ever been a class skill it is treated as a class skill - otherwise, you would have the potential for weird situations where you multiclass and your skills immediately become illegal. When leveling, whether it's in class or cross-class determines how many points you'll pay for it. Able Learner makes it so you always pay the in-class rate for skill ranks, so the distinction between in-class and cross-class is much less relevant; if it's ever been a class skill for you, Able Learner lets you continue treating it as one in any way that matters.

[Chaosticket]

Okay so how about


Human, level 1 bonus Feat: Able Learner

1 bard 1 open feat
2 bard 2
3 bard 3 open feat
4 bard 4
5 paladin of Freedom 5
6 paladin of Freedom 6 Combat Casting
7 abjurant champion 1
8 abjurant champion 2
9 abjurant champion 3 open feat
10 abjurant champion 4
11 sublime chord 1
12 abjurant champion 5 open feat
13 eldritch knight 1
14 eldritch knight 2
15 eldritch knight 3 open feat
16 eldritch knight 4
17 eldritch knight 5
18 eldritch knight 6 open feat
19 eldritch knight 7
20 eldritch knight 8



level 1 Bonus: Able Learner
level 12 bonus combat:


Some alternate choices I can think of by swapping out Eldritch knight and/or Abjurant Champion are 1 level of Spellsword for the small Arcane Failure reduction(useful with some Mithril armors), a 2nd level of Sublime Chord for Song of Arcane Power without losing BAB.

[DEMON]

Okay so how about

Human, level 1 bonus Feat: Able Learner

1 bard 1 open feat
2 bard 2
3 bard 3 open feat
4 bard 4
5 paladin of Freedom 5
6 paladin of Freedom 6 Combat Casting
7 abjurant champion 1
8 abjurant champion 2
9 abjurant champion 3 open feat
10 abjurant champion 4
11 sublime chord 1
12 abjurant champion 5 open feat
13 eldritch knight 1
14 eldritch knight 2
15 eldritch knight 3 open feat
16 eldritch knight 4
17 eldritch knight 5
18 eldritch knight 6 open feat
19 eldritch knight 7
20 eldritch knight 8



level 1 Bonus: Able Learner
level 12 bonus combat:

Some alternate choices I can think of by swapping out Eldritch knight and/or Abjurant Champion are 1 level of Spellsword for the small Arcane Failure reduction(useful with some Mithril armors), a 2nd level of Sublime Chord for Song of Arcane Power without losing BAB.

If you take the 1st Eldritch Knight level before going Sublime Chord, you can max that class' caster progression at the cost of another lost level of Bard spellcasting.

Also going Bard / Paladin / more Bard / everything else can help you keep a few more skills at higher ranks before moving on to prestige classes.

[Chaosticket]

I may be wrong, but Eldritch Knight doesnt have its individual spell list, its increases whatever one arcane class already taken by the character by +1 at each prestige level from EK 2-10.

I would choose all prestige casting bonus levels to go to Bard before level 11 and after the Sublime Chord is taken redirect all future boosts to it. They all stack caster levels so its effectively Bard 8+Sublime Chord 10=18 for total caster level.

In particular the Sublime Chord can pick spells from the Bard or Wizard/Sorcerer List.

So Its not a Wizard in variety of spells or a Sorcerer in sheer number, but it still got a lot.

[Anthrowhale]

Cleric 20 has 15 BAB without Divine Power. You need e.g. Knight of the Raven, Ordained Champion, Ruby Knight Windicator or company to hit 16 BAB on a divine caster without using buffs or such, thus losing casting.

There are 5 full BAB/full casting classes according to Troactid's list (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1geywITbI4M-Up08SGD-rUHlnobR66aIgKqu7mILkmhU/edit#gid=691970088).

Windwalker advances divine only and works on a cleric.
Sacred Fist advances divine only but it has a monster feat tax. It's 10 levels rather than 3 if you are a text-trumps-table person.

Hexer advances divine or arcane although entries are oddball. Maybe easiest with an archivist entry?
Verdant Lord advances divine or arcane although the wilderness lore requirement makes it subject to DM fiat.

Abjurant Champion is the sole arcane only class and it lasts for only 5 levels.

Sacred Fist & Abjurant Champion are 3.5 while the others are 3.0.

[DEMON]

I may be wrong, but Eldritch Knight doesnt have its individual spell list, its increases whatever one arcane class already taken by the character by +1 at each prestige level from EK 2-10.

Poor wording on my side. By taking EK 1 (that does not increase spellcasting) before going SC, you will be able to max SC's spellcasting. It's not about the caster level, but the spells per day and spells known.

[Anthrowhale]

I would choose all prestige casting bonus levels to go to Bard before level 11 and after the Sublime Chord is taken redirect all future boosts to it. They all stack caster levels so its effectively Bard 8+Sublime Chord 10=18 for total caster level.


Sublime Chord sets caster level = Sublime Chord level + one spellcaster level. The spellcaster here is bard, so it sets caster level to 5 (=4 levels of bard + 1 level of Sublime Chord). The prestige classes advancing Sublime Chord add to this caster level for Sublime Chord implying a caster level of 13=5+1(AC)+7(EK). The bard casting similarly benefits, getting a caster level of 9=5+4(AC).

If you want to stack caster levels directly, you need something like Theurgic Specialist or Psiotheurge.

[Chaosticket]

Okay I double checked it trying to understand what you mean.

Getting Eldritch Knight 1 before Sublime Chord means +1 Bard and -1 Sublime Chord level. Thanks for bringing that up.

Edit: Lots of math

Okay error, total caster level is 17 because of 2 levels of Paladin of Freedom and 1 level of Eldritch Knight(the dead level).

Also reading, the Sublime Chord spells should use the total caster level, but the Bard's should stop at level 10 when It stops using prestige classes to increase it Bard spellcasting level. Is that correct?

Edit again: I read it yet again and no the "the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes" do use the total caster level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Never use Eldritch Knight with a spontaneous spellcaster such as Sorcerer, Bard, or Sublime Chord. Eldritch Knight gives you more spells per day and a higher caster level, but you never gain more spells known from levels of that class. That build may have 9th level spell slots, but it only has two 5th level spells known, the rest are lower. Replace Eldritch Knight with Knight Phantom and it may work, but get the fifth level of Abjurant Champion.

Forget all about trying to use Sublime Chord to make a gish, it's a waste of time. Never, ever use dandwiki or similar wiki sites, they're filled with bad advice (Abjurant Champion 4 instead of 5), misunderstanding of the rules (Eldritch Knight on a Sublime Chord), and house rules presented as official material.

Go for something a bit more simple, make a Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Knight Phantom (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) 8, you'll have a +18 BAB and 9th level spells at a caster level of 20th with Practiced Spellcaster.

[Chaosticket]

I didnt look up the important detail of spells known and now all that work is up in smoke. Knight Phantom is setting specific, so cant work with that.

I remember I ended up with the same problem with the Mystic Theurge in Pathfinder using a Sorcerer/Oracle.

So Eldritch Knight and Abjurant Champion dont add spells known. They could still work with a wizard.

Sublime Chord is still appealing as is in terms of other classes it technically only requires 1 level of Bard and can potentially get up to tier 9 spells. Trying to get the right combination of Arcane class with enough skills and BAB is hard.

edit: Basic combo is still Wizard 5/Fighter(or other martial) 1 then use Eldritch Knight and Abjurant Champion. Should get 17 BAB and 18 Caster Level.

[Kurald Galain]

So Eldritch Knight and Abjurant Champion dont add spells known. They could still work with a wizard.
Abjurant Champion does add to spells known. You could also use Pathfinder's Eldritch Knight; which explicitly also adds to spells known.

[Fouredged Sword]

Most dms i have played with consider the lack of spells known asvancment in some prcs that advance spellcasting to be an ommision by mistake and allow them to advance spells known. Ask your dm.

[Chaosticket]

Okay at this point you may have figured out I don't want to have to use 3rd party, homebrew, or GM permission on questionable rules. Basically an idiotproof build.

[DEMON]

Okay at this point you may have figured out I don't want to have to use 3rd party, homebrew, or GM permission on questionable rules. Basically an idiotproof build.

Human, Able Learner feat.

Bard 4 / Crusader 1 / Spellsword 1 / Jade Phoenix Mage 4 / Sublime Chord 4 / JPM +1 / Abjurant Champion 5.

BAB: 17
CL: No idea, too drunk to calculate, but you do have full SC spellcasting.

This requires some skill joggling to qualify for all the prestige classes, but with Able Learner (and the extra skill point from being human), this should be perfectly doable.

I did a stub up to level 10 and had ~10 skill points free on top of all the pre-reqs.
The build had: Arc 13, Lis 13, Perf 10, Splc 7, Conc 9, Prof 6, Hist 2, Reli 2 which should amount to 59 skill points out of 69 total (Human, Int 10; higher Int recommended).

[Chaosticket]

Ill need to look up Book of the Nine Swords to check that.

Abjurant Champion at level 5 has Martial Arcanist, matching Caster Level with BAB(thought not other way around).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Even with Abjurant Champion 5, your caster level can be higher than your BAB. The point of getting five levels in the class is to add +5 to the AC bonus of your abjuration spells (and Mage Armor/Greater Mage Armor, which it specifically mentions as being affected), and being able to cast 3rd level abjurations as a swift action. Plus the fifth level gives you BAB, spellcasting, and a d10 HD, it's better than another level of most other classes.

Go ahead and use Eldritch Knight, but with a Wizard-based gish. Go Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Eldritch Knight 9/ Abjurant Champion 5 in that order, you miss out on eight levels of learning new Wizard spells for free, but you can always spend (spell level x 50 gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#arcaneMagicalWritings)) plus the page count (get a Blessed Book (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#blessedBook) so every spell is one page) to learn as many spells as you want.

Feel free to change up that build a bit even. Make it start Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) 1/ Fighter 1/ Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1 instead. Replace Eldritch Knight 9 with Eldritch Knight 7/ Paragnostic Apostle 2, you lose one point of BAB but you'll still be at +17 by 20th level, and that's two more levels of free spells learned. You want to say the Eldritch Knight levels were earned as early as possible because you'll miss out on fewer free high level spells that way, lower level spells are cheaper to buy.

Otherwise just go with a Cleric build. A Human Cleric of Zarus (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=1) 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10 with DMM: Persistent isn't setting-specific and it can have all kinds of buffs on all day: Divine Power, Righteous Might, Divine Favor, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Stormrage, Greater Visage of the Deity, Choose Destiny, etc. Start with the Strength and War domains, trade the Strength domain's power for Divine Restoration in Dungeonscape. Pick up the Oracle, Law, and Destiny domains from prestige classes. Get Extra Turning and Craft Rod to make your own Nightsticks, their effect isn't expressed as a bonus so having more than one will stack. Take Power Attack, since his favored weapon is a greatsword.

[Vaz]

Have you considered Psionics? (Illithid) Slayer gives 9/10 Advancement, and Full BAB: Ardent gives Full Manifesting and 3/4 BAB, along with the ability to not expend focus on a particular mantle and gets access to Anticipatory Strike, Time Hop, (best way to enter a room with a closed door, ever), Synchronicity, etc. Linked Power hilarity also

You can go full ridiculous, and use the wording of the Spell To Power Erudite and the Wyrm Wizard to argue any Arcane or Divine Spell is thus a Psionic Power, and eligible for being selected as part of either Expanded Knowledge feat or the Substitute Powers ACF, letting you customize any mantle as appropriate.

[Anthrowhale]

A Cleric persisting spells seems like the most straightforward approach. Their spells are not as flashy, but if you look around enough there are plenty of good ones for combat. I made a cleric list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526397-Warmage-vs-Favored-Soul).

If you go with a good alignment instead, you can benefit from Sacred Exorcist to get 2 turning pools (= twice the persistent spells) by starting out with the Rebuke Dragons ACF (Dragon Magic). If you take Extra Turning 7 times, each turning pool can support about 5 persistent spells (=(7*4+3+Charisma bonus+minor items)/7) implying 10 spells can be persisted each day. If you take rods of extend spell (which are relatively cheap), you can double that number to 20 by casting 10 extended persistent spells per day. You can make your spells effectively undispellable by using a prayer bead of karma (20k gp), an ankh of ascension (9k gp), and a bard friend casting Hymn of Praise (level 3) and Harmonic Chorus (level 2) to raise caster level by 12 during your daily buffing session.

None of the above has any questionable interpretation. Your BAB ends up at 20 with persisted divine power and you have full spell access throughout the build. You can always use heavy armor.

[Chaosticket]

Okay let me understand. You traded all your feats so you can make one spell almost permanent and the function of that one spell is to raise your BAB to your character level.

Thats a hefty trade as by that point the spell would last quite a while.

Havent really gone into Divine Gish as they already have most necessary abilities. Still multiclass Divine would be interesting.

Mystic Theurge is interesting but also a trap unless you play to level 30.

Arcane Hierophant is better as even basic build keeps the Druids main features.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Okay let me understand. You traded all your feats so you can make one spell almost permanent and the function of that one spell is to raise your BAB to your character level.

Thats a hefty trade as by that point the spell would last quite a while.

Havent really gone into Divine Gish as they already have most necessary abilities. Still multiclass Divine would be interesting.

Mystic Theurge is interesting but also a trap unless you play to level 30.

Arcane Hierophant is better as even basic build keeps the Druids main features.

I'm not sure you understand how Divine Metamagic works.

You spend feats on Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell, and if necessary Extra Turning and Craft Rod. That's five feats. You can get the feat prerequisite for Divine Oracle by saying you visited the Frog God's Fane in Complete Scoundrel and paying a few thousand gold.

In many cases a character can take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) from Unearthed Arcana (more choices of flaws are available in various Dragon magazine issues) to get two additional feats. As a Human, with two flaws, you have ten feats by 20th level, that costs you no more than five of them. You don't have feat taxes like Practiced Spellcaster or Combat Casting.

There's no limit to the number of persistent spells you can have on your character at once, apart from the resources it takes to cast them.

Nightsticks are in Libris Mortis, each one you possess effectively functions as the Extra Turning feat, allowing you to turn/rebuke undead four more times each day. You can buy/craft ten of those and be able to turn/rebuke undead 43+Cha times per day. It takes seven to use DMM: Persistent, so you can have six, maybe seven different persistent spells on you every day:

Divine Power: +6 Str (enhancement), BAB equal to character level.
Choose Destiny (Destiny domain, Races of Destiny): Roll every d20 twice and use the better roll.
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Spell Compendium): Effectively puts Haste on yourself and the rest of your party all day every day, with an extra +3 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls.
Stormrage (Spell Compendium): Fly speed 40, immunity to thrown weapons and projectile attacks, immunity to natural and magical wind effects, and you can shoot bolts of lightning from your eyes as often as you want. Just being outright immune to all ranged weapons that aren't spells is a good enough reason to use this one, the rest is icing on the cake.
Greater Visage of the Deity (Spell Compendium): Gain the Half-Celestial (if good) or Half-Fiend (if evil) template for the duration of the spell, easily replaced if you find something you like more.
Righteous Might: Nerfed in the errata, but still decent, especially since it lasts all day.
Shield of Law: Buffs yourself and your party with +4 to AC and saving throws, immunity to compulsion effects, and if a chaotic creature hits your character in melee they're affected by a Slow spell.
Ice Axe (Spell Compendium): If you're into that. You should be able to buff it with Greater Magic Weapon, you can Power Attack with it and any extra damage will be more cold damage.

Plus there are plenty of hour/level and 24-hour buffs you can use:
Heroes' Feast: Immunity to poison and fear effects for your whole party.
Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment: Buff your weapon, armor, and (animated) shield to +5 all day every day without spending any gold on it.
Superior Resistance: +6 to saving throws.
Energy Immunity: Immune to one of the five energy types.

Get a 6th level Pearl of Power and a standard Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell. Every other day prepare Energy Immunity twice, use the pearl to cast it three times with the rod so each lasts 48 hours. On the days in between prepare Energy Immunity and Superior Resistance each once, cast those with the rod and use the pearl to cast Energy Immunity again, those last 48 hours. All day every day you're immune to all five energy types, and you've got a +6 resistance bonus to your saving throws, for two 6th level spells each day and the cost of those two items.

Be sure you have all of the Necessary Magic Items (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) either from magic items or from your spells.

[Anthrowhale]

Okay let me understand. You traded all your feats so you can make one spell almost permanent and the function of that one spell is to raise your BAB to your character level.

As BF says---not sure you are appreciating persistent spell effectively. Reiterating in a different way, the adventuring day buff statistics for the Favored Soul I linked are probably to overpowered for your game.

LE Medium Outsider [good, cold]
Darkvision 60' + see in magical darkness (True Seeing at will) + Spot 22 (much higher with Owl's Insight+29, Divine Inspiration+15, Benediction+20)
AC 69 (Dex+5, Armor+10, Shield+7, Deflect+21, Sacred+5, Natural Armor+4, Luck+3, Insight+2, Dodge+2)
Fort 38 (FS+12, Con+8, Resist+6, Luck+5, Morale+5, Sacred+2) + Immune unless harmless or affects objects
Refl 40 (FS+12, Dex+5, Resist+6, Luck+5, Morale+5, Sacred+5, Insight+2)
Will 36 (FS+12, Wis+4, Resist+6, Luck+5, Morale+5, Sacred+2, Iron Will+2) + Immune Mind-affecting
Initiative +5
Ranged Touch attack+49 (base attack+20, Dex+5, Enhance+21, Luck+3) for 30 Fire (45 vs evil) or 5d6 Acid (x1.5 vs evil)
Melee attacks+115 (base attack+20, Str+71, Enhance+21, Luck+3) for by-weapon damage
Caster level 50/60(buffs) (20 base +29 Consumptive Field+4 Prayer Bead:Karma+4 Ankh of Ascension+1 Orange Ioun Stone+1 Robe of Arcane Might)
Strength 156 (12+120 Consumptive Field+6 Enhance+4 Clawed Arm+8 Size+2 Sacred)
Dexterity 22 (13+1 Inherent+6 Enhance)
Constitution 26 (13+2 Inherent-1 Cerebrosis+6 Enhance+4 Size+2 Sacred)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 18 (14 +4 Inherent) (+Owl's Insight)
Charisma 32 (16 base, Enhance+6, Level+5, inherent+5)
Immunity to Mind-Affecting, Paralysis, Stunning, Death, Suffocation, Poison, Sleep, Critical Hits, Non-lethal, Starvation, Massive Damage, Fort unless harmless or affects objects, Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Physical Ability Damage, Cold, Fire, Acid, Electricity, Sonic, Death by Damage, Encumbering Magic, Grapple, Dazzle, Blindness, Spells, SLAs, and Su via Antimagic Field.

... and that was using Persistent Spell the hard way. Pick whichever subset is reasonable for your game.

[Eldariel]

Another example, I made a level 11 Cleric Charger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314454-3-5-Cleric-Charger) that can one-shot a Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires) (the hardiest printed first party monster) with no loops, no Consumptive Field. Instead it uses the Southern Magician and Anyspells to persist Arcane spells. And the character is immune to damage and can do that more or less all day long. Persistent Spell just completely annihilates any sanity buff stacking has since suddenly your only restriction is having the spell available and it either being innately persistable or you turning it persistable (Reach Spell/Ocular Spell). Even without Reach/Ocular though, just buffstacking yourself to high heavens is absolutely insane numerically compared to any non-full caster.

[Chaosticket]

Sorry I have to check the Cleric and Druid spell lists in 2nd, 3.5, and Pathfinder to understand some things.

3.5 doesnt have the same power as 2nd edition spells. Harm and Heal arent the key spells that guarantee the Cleric a place. Slay Living is pretty good.

In 3.5 Divine Favor, Divine Power and Haste actually stack unlike Pathfinder.

Okay so this reinforces the Arcane Gish as it has more damage, crowd control, and key group buffs like Haste. If Im missing something feel free to instruct me and anyone else.

[Anthrowhale]

Sorry I have to check the Cleric and Druid spell lists in 2nd, 3.5, and Pathfinder to understand some things.

3.5 doesnt have the same power as 2nd edition spells. Harm and Heal arent the key spells that guarantee the Cleric a place. Slay Living is pretty good.

In 3.5 Divine Favor, Divine Power and Haste actually stack unlike Pathfinder.

Okay so this reinforces the Arcane Gish as it has more damage, crowd control, and key group buffs like Haste. If Im missing something feel free to instruct me and anyone else.

Eldariel's build uses 2 arcane spells, but divine casting is essential for access to persistent spells at a reasonable level in a campaign setting independent way. Without persistent spell, you'll need to ask the bad guys for a timeout while you buff before each combat and then cast the spells once per encounter (i.e. many times/day) to get the same benefits.

If you want very broad spell access, you might consider an Archivist base. You'll have half as many persistent spells after taking a level of Sacred Exorcist but you'll get access to every divine spell (and access to the ability to make every spell divine via scribe scroll).

[Eldariel]

Eldariel's build uses 2 arcane spells, but divine casting is essential for access to persistent spells at a reasonable level in a campaign setting independent way. Without persistent spell, you'll need to ask the bad guys for a timeout while you buff before each combat and then cast the spells once per encounter (i.e. many times/day) to get the same benefits.

That said, a non-persisting (or brute force persisting for higher level stuff; on ECL 13-15 you can persist a lot of really powerful stuff the oldfashioned way, doubly so with Practical/Easy Metamagic) gish is still going to be very powerful compared to any non-caster when played appropriately. Natively all day buffs combined with swift action buffs and perhaps a round before you actually reach engagement distance or some other foreknowledge allows a buff or two and gives you very solid numbers. It does make stuff like Consumptive Field, Divine Power, etc. far less impressive though (but still very good). But yeah, both Arcane and Divine have great gish spells and generally you kinda doubledip either way (Polymorph, Wraithstrike and Bite of the WereX lines are way too good not to use as a divine gish and Divine Power is a staple on arcane gish builds, though divine buffs extend far beyond that point as evident in any number of the builds in this thread).

[Chaosticket]

Aside from the Archivist and Spell-to-power Erudite who can use spells like Divine Power and Haste?

[Anthrowhale]

Aside from the Archivist and Spell-to-power Erudite who can use spells like Divine Power and Haste?

Any arcane caster with level 4 spells and Arcane Disciple[War,Pride,Celestia,Competition,or Orc] or anyone with a sufficient level of Use Magic Device.

[Vaz]

Any psionic character can pick up Divine Power (or any Arcane or Divine spell) thanks to the StP Erudite wording, provided that they can take Expanded Knowledge for 4th level spells (or appropriate) , and the Ardent in particuoar can pick it up through the same wording, and use the Substitute Power ACF to add it to the respective mantle (Conflict, Guardian, Mental Might, Physical Power being the most likely).

Haste is appropriate for the Time Mantle, and some others.

Linked Power with Dominant Mantle cuts your action economy in half to buff up making it more worthwile to manifest buff powers in this way.

I also think you are underselling Persistent Spell.

Persistent Spell is normally a waste. It takes a spell of 3rd level, and makes it last all day at the cost of a 9th level spell, or a 1st level for a 7th etc, which is wasteful. The mitigation of this additonal cost means you have higher level spells permanancied, and/or have any lower level spell take less of a spell slot to cast.

Obviously, there is the benefit of a spell that otherwisr lasts for 3 minutes (typically the more powerful buff spells) actually last all day, but being able to throw down a dozen 24 hour spells, even at +2 cost means you're much more powerful until a dedicated dispeller comes along (which is why you are also an Item Crafter and make 50 spellblade shuriken) than many others in the game.

[Eldariel]

Any arcane caster with level 4 spells and Arcane Disciple[War,Pride,Celestia,Competition,or Orc] or anyone with a sufficient level of Use Magic Device.

Also Clerics with e.g. Spell domain, Time domain, Celerity domain, or the Cleric Righteous Wrath of the Faithful which replicates the extra attack (doesn't stack with Haste) while also granting generic stat bonuses. And of course, any Cleric can Miracle it.

[Chaosticket]

Not the right question then.
I meant Divine and Arcane magic.

I know the Mystic Theurge prestige can level both types simultaneously. Its hard to work with as it doesnt keep class features so its more about trading 3 Wizard levels for 13 Cleric levels. Specifically a second spell pool for Divine spells as you dont scale abilities and cant use armor with Arcane.

Arcane Hierophant is better as it keeps the Druids features scaling and basically gives you 13 wizard levels. Wild Shape+ haste+invisibility.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You don't need to be able to cast both arcane and divine spells, especially on a gish. There are plenty of ways to add normally-arcane spells to your divine spell list or otherwise cast them as divine spells to buff yourself.

If you want to make an Arcane Hierophant, your BAB may suffer because Druid doesn't get Divine Power. If you do want to go this route, there are many ways to do it, I'd prefer maxing Druid abilities by going with any Elf race, Druid 8/ Suel Arcanamach 2/ Arcane Hierophant 10. That only gets +14 BAB, but it has Druid 18 spells, wild shape, and animal companion, max level Suel Arcanamach spellcasting, and you add a 12th level arcane caster's familiar benefits to your animal companion.

[Chaosticket]

I know raw BAB wont be as good, but animal forms with more attacks compensate somewhat. Its more about buffing. Adding Arcane spells and another pool means lots of buffs. Shield, Greater Mage Armor, Haste, and so on.

I heard about Bite of the (blank) series like Weretiger that gives an enhancement bonus to all physical stats especially a +12 to strength.

[atemu1234]

My old(est) build was a Sorcadin I posted a while back. Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 2 / Eidoloncer 2 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Sacred Exorcist X.
TBH, in hindsight, it'd probably be easier just to be a Prestige Paladin 2 / Cleric X.

[Fouredged Sword]

A druid gish works really well with rollibar and karmeic strike. Stack strength and dex (tons of aoos) boosts from woldshape and bite of the x line. You have a smaller full attack than most gishes, but your single hit is much more powerful due to a strength in the 50s. Splattering anythingnthat dares to take a swing at you makes for a fun melee defense as well.