Is Xanthar's balanced?

[Phoenix042]

Does Xanthar's Guide to Everything introduce content that significantly disrupts the balance of 5e?

[Eragon123]

Does Xanthar's Guide to Everything introduce content that significantly disrupts the balance of 5e?

Healing Spirit may cause some tension to be lost in all but the most time-pressed dungeon crawls.

[nickl_2000]

One Word: Hexblade


Does it completely break things, no. It very much alters the reality of the game.

[Naanomi]

A few things stronger than other options; like a strong feat, and a few strong subclasses... but nothing stronger than anything else in the rest of the game as a whole

[Easy_Lee]

Hexblade has a large advantage over other melee blade warlocks for pure damage and, from what I can tell, a small advantage over most other martials. DD Darkness / Shadow of Moil with Hexblade's Curse up and Eldritch Smite is very hard to beat.

The ranger archetypes in Xanathar's are overall better than the ones in the PHB. That's something to consider.

Otherwise, Xanathar's doesn't seem to be imbalanced compared to existing content. I'm overall pleased.

[MxKit]

I think it is, yeah. It gives some strong options and some not as strong options, but IMO nothing they put in there is significantly worse than any of the options you already got with the PHB (and SCAG), and very little is significantly better. And I say this as someone who likes the flavor of a lot of the Xanathar's subclasses significantly better... But even the amazing Ranger options in Xanathar's don't, imo, completely blow Hunter Rangers out of the water.

Arguably, Hexblade is the most powerful thing Xanathar's gave us, but I don't even think that's unbalanced. It's not actually as good for dips as some people tout it to be; it's not going to work for every class. It can be a good dip for Fighters or Rogues who are already going the Charismatic route (though in both cases they're going to want their main attack stat to be higher than their Charisma for other reasons, so it's not really game-changing for them in most cases), and it's a great one for Paladins (unless you actually want that final Sacred Oath feature, and some of those are very good). Sorcerers aren't going to want to be in melee (though it's still a decent dip for the same reasons just straight Warlock is) and are going to want as many sorcery points as possible, and, the ranged bards might benefit from a dip but have class features they likely won't want to put off, and melee Bards aren't necessarily going to want to put off extra attack or (in Valor's case) their cast-then-weapon-attack combos, so while they might well dip it will probably be a dip after 6th level, and possibly even after 14th level.

Hexblade is a very strong choice if you're wanting to go Pact of the Blade, though. They really made a melee Warlock viable, but of course that's most useful to the people who want to play a melee Warlock, specifically.

[ad_hoc]

Hexblade is unbalanced. The problem is that it works well with a ranged Warlock. Its abilities should be limited to melee. Curse and Medium armour is too much.

You will find people on this board don't value the armour highly as they expect a ranged character to not take any attacks. In a game with higher difficulty that extra 5 AC is huge.

Healing Spirits is fine if changed to only work at the beginning of a creature's turn.

[Strangways]

Healing Spirit may cause some tension to be lost in all but the most time-pressed dungeon crawls.

In-combat healing from Healing Sprit isn't anything game-changing. Out of combat, people have complained about its theoretical maximum healing potential, but trying to use it as a substitute for a short rest is, as often as not, a trap that leaves the party going into the next combat short of Ki points, action surges, second winds and other short-rest resources.

[Easy_Lee]

In-combat healing from Healing Sprit isn't anything game-changing. Out of combat, people have complained about its theoretical maximum healing potential, but trying to use it as a substitute for a short rest is, as often as not, a trap that leaves the party going into the next combat short of Ki points, action surges, second winds and other short-rest resources.

Really it's not terrible in-combat, either. A moon druid might make great use of it while wildshaping, healing allies as a bonus action while using the beast's multiattack. It's not as powerful as conjure X + wildshape, but it costs fewer resources and can bring people back up if they go down. The ability for everyone to get [remaining rounds]*d6 HP back after the fight is great.

Healing Spirit is an interesting case because it's more powerful than similar heals, but isn't more powerful than same-level spells. Heals in general are pretty weak this edition, with the exception of some of the new ones in Xanathar's.

To sum it all up, Xanathar's creates new character possibilities without invalidating much (other melee blade-locks being the primary exception). So, like I said, I'm overall pleased.

[Davrix]

The problem is some people focus a little to much in a small aspect. A lot of times DM's dont run the 5-6 encounter per day ration the game is balanced around so some things get really screwy with how powerful they are in the short term. (casters especially) Same goes for hexblad right now. Its good but its not omg this is going to break everything in the game by taking it at first lv or even a a dip. (actually especially as a dip because if you don't take 4 levels in warlock your giving up a +2 or a feat option by doing it, which makes the power gain from it less beneficial then some might argue. Its a short quick gain in power that balances out as you level. Now for one shot games or higher level characters it can maybe be a little to enticing but you can balance around it without fear of killing the rest of the party. It just means you can be a little more mean to t hat warlock.

[Easy_Lee]

The problem is some people focus a little to much in a small aspect. A lot of times DM's dont run the 5-6 encounter per day ration the game is balanced around so some things get really screwy with how powerful they are in the short term. (casters especially) Same goes for hexblad right now. Its good but its not omg this is going to break everything in the game by taking it at first lv or even a a dip. (actually especially as a dip because if you don't take 4 levels in warlock your giving up a +2 or a feat option by doing it, which makes the power gain from it less beneficial then some might argue. Its a short quick gain in power that balances out as you level. Now for one shot games or higher level characters it can maybe be a little to enticing but you can balance around it without fear of killing the rest of the party. It just means you can be a little more mean to t hat warlock.

To this point, a Hexblade providing his own advantage from darkness or shadow of moil can only use eldritch smite, or any other spell, one time before the next short rest. It's a big investment for, potentially, a small payoff. And it will be a small payoff if the DM decides to make it such. That's the most frustrating part of playing this kind of character.

Hexblade works a lot better with party support. In that regard, it's similar to other martials.

[Willie the Duck]

I think people have mentioned the obvious issues. Hexblade and the new rangers archetypes are stronger than the same roles were presented in the PHB. Since those have generally been considered wanting in some way or another, that is probably deliberate. Hexblade is not really overpowered, but 1-3 level dips in hexblade for cha-based multiclass characters might give people consternation. Healing Spirit is perfectly reasonable in combat, but out of combat can make you start most fights at near full hp (which can make larger dungeon crawling resource-attrition situations less than challenging. AL games where you have no other uses for your gold and can basically walk around with hundreds of healing potions by mid-high level already made that the case for some games. Basically, just like the DM who says, "No you can't buy 50 healing potions," you now need a DM who says, "no you can't all do danceline routines through the same square, each of you once every six seconds, for a minute! That's just stupid!"

And likewise, the coffeelock is supported by XGtE, and it is another instance of 'more frustrating and stupid than game-breaking.' Another thing you might want to veto as a DM.

Other than that, there are cool things, but nothing to strange.

[Talamare]

A lot of things that were kinda weak got pretty good buffs

ie Rangers, Melee Bards, Druids, Melee Warlocks

Some of these buffs were done poorly and creates potentially unbalanced MCing

ie Melee Warlock

There are also a few things that are insanely powerful for almost no reason

ie Barbarian subclasses not called Storm Herald


Overall Xanathar is very strong, but still barely balanced. I think the proper term is some power creep.

[Kane0]

Balanced, but featuring definite power creep. Compare Hexblade to say Great Old One warlock or Beserker to Zealot barbarian.

[Spamotron]

From what I've seen is that new Ranger archetypes, Hexblade, and the Healing Spirit spell are all undisputably stronger than their PHB equivalents. But a lot of people feel that those PHB equivalents were weak to begin with and Xanthar's only brings them up to par with other classes and spells. If you feel the same then there was no real power creep for the game as a whole. If you feel those options were already fine then there's some.

[JAL_1138]

Since College of Swords' Blade Flourish works with ranged weapons, Valor Bard has very little to recommend it over College of Swords now. I'm a bit annoyed with that, since it took a while to get my Valor Bard to Tier 3 in League, and rebuilds are hard to come by.

(It's not that big a difference, really--not the degree of difference between Hexblade and other melee "locks or PHB vs XGE Rangers--it's just a bit aggravating to have something come out that works somewhat better for the archer-bard concept after investing a couple-three seasons of play into it.)

[Vaz]

Not really. Conquest Pal vs say Fire Storm Barb shows a bit of disparity in what the game designers were going for.

[Garresh]

Hexblade is "overpowered" in the context of other options, but the thing is that blade pact warlocks were garbage without multiclassing before. In terms of actual power level it's not that bad.

The only thing that stands out to me as broken is Healing Spirit. People forget it's limited to once per turn, not once per round. This means it heals at least double what Aura of Vitality heals, at a lower spell level. Worse, it technically doesn't require an action to use after the first round if positioned well, upscales in power with parry size, and is cast as a BONUS action, instead of an action like Aura of Vitality. The spell can easily heal over 150 hit points in a party of five. The only downside to the spell is that it requires concentration.

So the question becomes, does being overpowered at something that is subpar still count as overpowered? After all 3.5 hit points per round isn't exactly overpowered past a certain point. But once you add Disciple of Life? I'd say it's a pretty incredible spell. At the very least it should be 4th level.

So other than those 2 standouts everything else seems okay.

[LudicSavant]

People talking about "overpowered" Hexblades compared to old Bladelocks or Zealots compared to Berserkers as if those things weren't already outclassed. :smallconfused:

If you want to establish something as being power creep, you should be comparing it to things that are strong, like Arcana Clerics or Ancients Paladins or Abjurer Wizards or Moon Druids.

[Kane0]

Keep in mind theres more than one kind if balance. Balance vs other archetypes within a given class and balance vs other classes for example

[ad_hoc]

People talking about "overpowered" Hexblades compared to old Bladelocks or Zealots compared to Berserkers as if those things weren't already outclassed. :smallconfused:

I talk about it being overpowered compared to every other patron.

Hexblade is best used as a ranged character. That's the problem.

(also pacts are not supposed to be very powerful so Blade Pact was fine before)

[Nidgit]

It's fairly balanced but pretty obvious power creep.

Ancestral Guardian is the new best tank.
College of Swords is more or less directly superior to College of Valor.
Toll the Dead is the best ranged cantrip without Invocations.
Healing Spirit is vastly superior to Prayer of Healing.
Ranger XgtE subclasses are all way stronger than their PHB counterparts.
Hexblade is a near-mandatory dip for CHA-based gishes and the required Patron for melee warlocks.

[Snowbluff]

Toll the Dead is overrate rated. Common save and bad damage type.

But in general a lot of the new subclasses are upgrades, and I will say that a lot of the ones that are do not make power creep if the class was garbage to start with. I mean ranger is such a joke...

[BigONotation]

Ancestral Guardian is the new best tank.
College of Swords is more or less directly superior to College of Valor.
Toll the Dead is the best ranged cantrip without Invocations.
Healing Spirit is vastly superior to Prayer of Healing.
Ranger XgtE subclasses are all way stronger than their PHB counterparts.
Hexblade is a near-mandatory dip for CHA-based gishes and the required Patron for melee warlocks.

Balanced against itself somewhat, against the PHB absolutely not. They are selling you power creep because that is what sells.

[MxKit]

It's fairly balanced but pretty obvious power creep.

Ancestral Guardian is the new best tank.
College of Swords is more or less directly superior to College of Valor.
Toll the Dead is the best ranged cantrip without Invocations.
Healing Spirit is vastly superior to Prayer of Healing.
Ranger XgtE subclasses are all way stronger than their PHB counterparts.
Hexblade is a near-mandatory dip for CHA-based gishes and the required Patron for melee warlocks.


Balanced against itself somewhat, against the PHB absolutely not. They are selling you power creep because that is what sells.

I actually disagree with both of you! I don't think there's really much power creep there.

-Ancestral Guardian is about equal to Bear Barbarian, IMO. A couple of Barbarian subclasses being the best at tanking when the Barbarian is already the tank doesn't seem that bad to me, and they seem fairly evenly matched.
-College of Swords is a step up for certain playstyles! It doesn't give you proficiency with shields or most martial weapons, but it does allow you to use your melee weapon as a spellcasting focus. It gives you one of two fighting styles and basically a small selection of Battle Master maneuvers, which is great, but some people are going to prefer having Valor's Combat Inspiration to buff their party more. Both get extra attack at the same level. Swords finally gets to do one of its maneuvers without expending bardic inspiration dice, but Valor gets to cast a spell and then make a weapon attack as a bonus action, giving them basically three attacks per turn instead of two (or two attacks while still being able to buff/debuff). I will say that with Valor you seem a bit more likely to want to dip into another martial class, whereas with Swords you seem more likely to want to be a dip from another class.
-I have to agree with Snowbluff that toll the dead is a bit overrated, and I love the spell for its flavor. Necrotic is a fairly commonly resisted damage type, and cantrips that require saves are always a bit worse than they sound. I honestly want to say eldritch blast is still the best cantrip in the game simply for doing force damage and eventually being able to hit multiple times per attack, even without Invocations, with vicious mockery being a close second just for the rider. Toll the dead maybe ties with vicious mockery, or just comes third.
-Healing spirit is the one thing I will give you; it is much better than prayer of healing outside of battle. Inside of battle, it's potentially better than cure wounds or healing word, but it also uses your concentration and so could wind up being worse than them. A bit of a creep when it comes to downtime healing, yes, but if that's the only real creep in the book I'm fine with it.
-Again, I wouldn't at all say the Ranger subclasses are significantly more powerful than Hunter Rangers. The only thing that makes me really sad is that they get extra spells with each subclass, while they didn't make a note updating the PHB subclasses to have those options. Other than that, it depends on what you want to do with your subclass. Beast Master is the only subclass that's actually broken (in a bad way), and it's disappointing that they didn't fix it in time for Xanathar's, but the UA version is quite strong as well.
-Hexblade has a definite edge for melee, pact of the blade Warlocks, but that's only a subset of Warlock players; it making gishing more viable for any Warlock players who want to go that route is okay with me. I will contest the idea that it's "a near-mandatory dip for CHA-based gishes," though; I've already noted that while it's a very good dip for Paladins, it's not necessarily better than the Paladin features they'd be losing out on, and that while melee Bards can benefit from it, taking a dip early puts off their extra attack, which few gishes want to do.

[LudicSavant]

I talk about it being overpowered compared to every other patron.

Indeed you do. I was replying to the folks like Kane0 who are instead framing "power creep" specifically as being superior to old bladelock or berserker (which just about everything was already superior to).

[toapat]

People talking about "overpowered" Hexblades compared to old Bladelocks or Zealots compared to Berserkers as if those things weren't already outclassed. :smallconfused:

Berserker barb is the highest DPR core mundane.

people forget that Redemption paladins have the best oath spell list pretty reliably and ignore that its a better tank than the other 5 paladin subclasses which already had two tanks in both Crown and Ancients

[Tanarii]

A lot of things that were kinda weak got pretty good buffs

ie Rangers, Melee Bards, Druids, Melee Warlocks
Only problem is, none of these these things were actually weak. They were just mis-perceived as weak, by folks who didn't understand the design intent.

So what we got, instead of overall balanced sub-classes, was clear power creep.

For example, instead of a ranged warlock with minor melee capabilities, we now have a ranged warlock with strong melee capabilities. That's not balanced in any way.

[GreyBlack]

So here's my question: Why do we care?

Maybe I'm just a little old school but honestly, I don't believe balance should be a core gameplay feature in TTRPGs. A skilled roleplayer doesn't need class features to be extremely effective. For example, I'm currently playing a 5e game as a Cleric of Helm who is currently setting up a spy network to keep me apprised of the events going on in the city. The other players think my character is imbalanced. Is that because of my class features?

[Unoriginal]

So here's my question: Why do we care?

Maybe I'm just a little old school but honestly, I don't believe balance should be a core gameplay feature in TTRPGs. A skilled roleplayer doesn't need class features to be extremely effective.

Why do we care? Because no one, not even "skilled roleplayers", wants to be the BMX Bandit when everyone else is Angel Summoner (unless they deliberately want to be weak).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

5e IS balanced. Even the new options are balanced. Some characters are slightly more powerful, but it's not major and the other characters aren't going to be inherently overshadowed.



For example, I'm currently playing a 5e game as a Cleric of Helm who is currently setting up a spy network to keep me apprised of the events going on in the city. The other players think my character is imbalanced. Is that because of my class features?

No, but in this case the other players are wrong if they think your character is not balanced.

[Renbot]

Why do we care? Because no one, not even "skilled roleplayers", wants to be the BMX Bandit when everyone else is Angel Summoner

I have never seen Angel Summoner versus BMX Bandit. I cannot thank you enough for enriching my existence as you have.

[Unoriginal]

I have never seen Angel Summoner versus BMX Bandit. I cannot thank you enough for enriching my existence as you have.

You're welcome :smallsmile: