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puppyavenger
2007-08-22, 06:23 PM
I'm just wondering, why do you get smarter, more perceptive, and more convincing as you get older? After all it can't be from experience as if a dirt farmer farmed firt for 80 years he's is no smarterr than a dirt farmer who farmed dirt for 10 years. And wisdom makes no sense because it means that you gain sharper eyes and ears as you age, and are old people realy more convincing?

Quietus
2007-08-22, 06:28 PM
Well, as far as charisma goes, gravity helps explain that... as for the rest, I think it's just because they wanted to give people SOMETHING for being excessively old. I think they should just remove the entire age bonus/penalty system, it's unnecessary.

dyslexicfaser
2007-08-22, 06:45 PM
It does occasionally trip itself up, like in the OotS where the dirt farmer can technically hear and see better because of old age, but mostly, it seems about right.

A dirt farmer who has lived for 80 years as a dirt farmer knows a few things about how the world works. He knows what people like to hear. He knows how to grease palms, he might know how to command workers.

That sort of thing.

Mad Wizard
2007-08-22, 06:54 PM
Intelligence and Wisdom are probably due to experience, but I don't know about Charisma. To fix the odd situation where your senses get better, maybe there should also be a penalty to those skills based on age.

tainsouvra
2007-08-22, 06:59 PM
I'm just wondering, why do you get smarter, more perceptive, and more convincing as you get older? You have more experience with the world, giving you a better background to use for drawing connections and more time to have gained knowledge (+int), a better sense for when something is amiss and a greater chance that what you're witnessing resembles something you've seen before (+wis), and wise old men just seem to be taken more seriously than their younger counterparts (+cha).

It's really not that much of a stretch, to be honest. The only thing that can be a problem is that physical senses are assumed to be constant at any age while most people damage their hearing and vision throughout their lives, leading to increasing chances of hearing and vision loss the older you get. I will say, though, that this is not a problem with age modifiers at all--it's a problem with how sensation and perception are modeled in the D&D universe, and frankly it's probably too complex to bother modeling in the first place.


Intelligence and Wisdom are probably due to experience, but I don't know about Charisma. To fix the odd situation where your senses get better, maybe there should also be a penalty to those skills based on age. The problem here is that they don't necessarily get worse--it's a stereotype based only partially on fact. By age 70, about a third of us will have some sort of hearing loss, and that's including people who have damaged their hearing through their environment. Again, that's a third of us, and that includes people who work in manufacturing or blast their headphones all their lives. As people get to 75, 80, etc the numbers go to about 50%, but even that isn't a given, it's a flip of a coin.

Ssiauhll
2007-08-23, 11:40 AM
Gravitas. I have yet to see a young person with that degree of dignity and command of self that combined with with the wisdom and insight that can come with age can make for an incredibly charismatic person. Looks fade with time, but true charisma does not.

puppyavenger
2007-08-23, 02:47 PM
If it's because of experience then why do elves dwarves etc. gain experience so much slower?

tainsouvra
2007-08-23, 02:51 PM
If it's because of experience then why do elves dwarves etc. gain experience so much slower? Racial differences. An old dog is an old dog, and acts like an old dog, even though its age would barely be a teenager to us. A young elf is a young elf, and acts like a young elf, even though its age would be ancient to us.

Orzel
2007-08-23, 03:04 PM
They do the "50 year old elf acts like a 10 year old human like a 35 year old dwarf" thing.

Elves spend 100 years learning nothing useful other than how you speak their language.

RAGE KING!
2007-08-23, 03:22 PM
The problem here is that they don't necessarily get worse--it's a stereotype based only partially on fact. By age 70, about a third of us will have some sort of hearing loss, and that's including people who have damaged their hearing through their environment. Again, that's a third of us, and that includes people who work in manufacturing or blast their headphones all their lives. As people get to 75, 80, etc the numbers go to about 50%, but even that isn't a given, it's a flip of a coin.

But they hardly ever get better hearing and sight.

I think the penalties are fine. but they should prevent spot and listen improvements.

Also, last time i checked the penalties were young (+1 mental stats -1 physical stats) middle aged (+1 mental stats -2 physical stats) and old (+1 mental stats -3 physical stats).

OOTS_Rules.
2007-08-23, 03:25 PM
Also, if we reverse age modifiers for younger people, then babies could punch through brick walls. That makes no sense.

tainsouvra
2007-08-23, 03:27 PM
But they hardly ever get better hearing and sight. That's not what the Wisdom bonus represents in the first place. Getting a higher Wisdom doesn't give you better sensation, it gives you better perception. It's not about what your eyes and ears pick up, it's about what you can rapidly interpret from them, and age is definitely helpful there. A young ranger might hear the same twig breaking as the grizzled old veteran, but the amount of information they gather from the same noise can differ widely, and that's what the listen check represents.
Also, if we reverse age modifiers for younger people, then babies could punch through brick walls. That makes no sense. Then don't make up nonexistent rules to break the game? :smallconfused:

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-23, 03:28 PM
Uh, you may have noticed that there's a certain age range where a person's physical abilities generally peak? That's the young age category. If you made younger age categories they ought to have penalties to both physical and mental stats.

AKA_Bait
2007-08-23, 03:37 PM
Uh, you may have noticed that there's a certain age range where a person's physical abilities generally peak? That's the young age category. If you made younger age categories they ought to have penalties to both physical and mental stats.

Actually this very much depends upon the physical abilities in question. A gymnist peaks as a teenager typically, an power hitting outfielder on a baseball team, early to mid thirties.

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-23, 03:50 PM
Actually this very much depends upon the physical abilities in question. A gymnist peaks as a teenager typically, an power hitting outfielder on a baseball team, early to mid thirties.
Yep, but except in the case of gymnasts peaking before 15 years of age, all of that falls inside the 'young' age category for humans. And the system, as you've probably noticed, is very granular. And it's somewhat reasonable that the penalties for pre-adult categories might fall more lightly on dex than other abilities, or perhaps grant bonuses to dex (though I have doubts about that).

Jayabalard
2007-08-23, 03:50 PM
The problem here is that they don't necessarily get worse--it's a stereotype based only partially on fact. By age 70, about a third of us will have some sort of hearing loss, and that's including people who have damaged their hearing through their environment. Again, that's a third of us, and that includes people who work in manufacturing or blast their headphones all their lives. As people get to 75, 80, etc the numbers go to about 50%, but even that isn't a given, it's a flip of a coin.A quick google gave me much higher percentages.


Age-related hearing loss is called presbycusis. It is unknown whether a specific cause such as noise trauma leads to presbycusis, but there appears to be a genetic predisposition.

Age-related hearing loss tends to occur in families. The disorder occurs in about 25% of people aged 65 to 75 and in 70 - 80% of those over age 75.

And I'm pretty sure this is talking about a severe level of hearing loss, since everything I've seen talks about having ESSENTIALLY normal hearing until around age 60, and another page (http://www.healthcentral.com/ency/408/004013.html) that talks about loss of acuity (hearing sharpness) around age 50.

in any case, the mosquito buzz ring tone sensation that is so popular in schools right now seems to indicate that some hearing loss due to age is extremely common, otherwise more teachers would be hearing it, since most of them are quite a bit younger than 60.

tainsouvra
2007-08-23, 04:15 PM
A quick google gave me much higher percentages. Err, if you read your numbers again, you'll note that you got a slightly lower number than I did for people around age 70, and only somewhat greater for the 75+ range, rather than universally "much higher". Additionally, I'd like to see your source. Mine is The National Institute on Deafness and Other Communication Disorders (http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/presbycusis.asp), so I'd consider that pretty reputable in terms of the numbers on communication disorders, there isn't much I would consider more definitive.
in any case, the mosquito buzz ring tone sensation that is so popular in schools right now seems to indicate that some hearing loss due to age is extremely common, otherwise more teachers would be hearing it, since most of them are quite a bit younger than 60. That has nothing to do with age-related hearing loss, it's related to hearing damage that wouldn't have existed in the D&D farmer's life. I've made an effort to avoid too much time around the things known to cause that kind of hearing damage, and despite the fact that I'm "too old" to hear that tone, but it comes across quite clearly to me...which is unfortunate, because that kind of sound wave is kind of disorienting :smallsmile:

Btw, after a bit of checking, I found an article that should explain the problem (http://www.livescience.com/health/060718_bad_hearing.html) for you.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-24, 03:27 AM
I think the mosquito ring-tone is bunk. I have superior hearing to most people and I can't hear it on the ad(probably because it doesn't translate well to the television.). :smallbiggrin:

I have days where I sometimes wind up with periods of "static" going through my ears. I suspect people are using walkie-talkies nearby, or the phone signals. I'm pretty sure it's not tinnitus, and I'll even go take an ear test just to prove it. Eventually.:smalltongue:

Cybren
2007-08-24, 03:42 AM
The general assumption of "you get smarter as you get older" is wrong anyway as there comes a point where the brain deteriorates as well. That's why no one complains about the old guy who comes into the diner wearing dungeroos and one of those news paper sailor hats and only orders waffles which he promptly butters and syrups and then stores for safe keeping in his wallet.

Funkyodor
2007-08-24, 06:18 AM
But the Fantasy setting AD&D adheres to the ideal that age equates to wisdom and intelligence at a cost of physical frailty. It doesn't have to be true or adhere to real life. If players/DMs don't like then House Rule.

Paragon Badger
2007-08-24, 07:12 AM
The general assumption of "you get smarter as you get older" is wrong anyway as there comes a point where the brain deteriorates as well. That's why no one complains about the old guy who comes into the diner wearing dungeroos and one of those news paper sailor hats and only orders waffles which he promptly butters and syrups and then stores for safe keeping in his wallet.

My dad is 53, He ain't wearing moo-moos, yet. :smalltongue:

There's a vast difference between being old and being senile. Some people die of old age with most of their memories intact.

Besides, in the D&D world, there isn't that much noise pollution. And even if there was, it would take a pretty constant barrage of it to ever effect your hearing in the way that our post-modern society is assaulting the eardrums of the youth. :smallwink:

Intelligence and Wisdom is obviously gained knowledge and wit from years of experience, respectively. Charisma is the whole 'respect your elders' meme. Older people are generally more likeable because of social respect towards them.

woc33
2007-08-24, 08:19 AM
My dad is 53, He ain't wearing moo-moos, yet. :smalltongue:

There's a vast difference between being old and being senile. Some people die of old age with most of their memories intact.

Besides, in the D&D world, there isn't that much noise pollution. And even if there was, it would take a pretty constant barrage of it to ever effect your hearing in the way that our post-modern society is assaulting the eardrums of the youth. :smallwink:

Intelligence and Wisdom is obviously gained knowledge and wit from years of experience, respectively. Charisma is the whole 'respect your elders' meme. Older people are generally more likeable because of social respect towards them.

if that was the case you would get a bonus to diplomacy and any other charisma related skills, not a bonus to charisma itself.

GNUsNotUnix
2007-08-24, 09:37 AM
I could see Wisdom increasing (with a penalty to Spot and Listen, perhaps), but Intelligence doesn't make sense. Gaining experience as you get older doesn't increase your intelligence; it increases your knowledge, represented in D&D by skill points (and levels used to gain them). Intelligence is supposed to represent the rate at which you learn things, not how many things you've learned.

tainsouvra
2007-08-24, 12:49 PM
I think the mosquito ring-tone is bunk. I have superior hearing to most people and I can't hear it on the ad(probably because it doesn't translate well to the television.). :smallbiggrin: What most people see as "superior hearing" is very acute perception of sound. That's related, but separate from, very acute sensation of sound. I can hear the mosquito ring tone, so I don't believe it's bunk at all (actually, it's a pretty annoying noise, be glad you can't hear it).

You hear well because you're good at quickly identifying sound, so you tend to identify more sounds and harder-to-identify sounds. That doesn't make your ears work better, though, that's mostly in the brain :smallsmile:
I have days where I sometimes wind up with periods of "static" going through my ears. I suspect people are using walkie-talkies nearby, or the phone signals. I'm pretty sure it's not tinnitus, and I'll even go take an ear test just to prove it. Eventually.:smalltongue: That's probably a good test to get, yeah.


The general assumption of "you get smarter as you get older" is wrong anyway as there comes a point where the brain deteriorates as well. That's why no one complains about the old guy who comes into the diner wearing dungeroos and one of those news paper sailor hats and only orders waffles which he promptly butters and syrups and then stores for safe keeping in his wallet. Myth, actually. Dementia is more common with age, but it's not strictly age-related, and it's definitely not something that comes naturally with age. It's the result of such nasty things as plaques growing within the brain due to a disorder, not "brain deterioration from age"...contrary to a longstanding urban legend, the brain does not produce a certain number of cells that slowly die off, it continues to produce new neurons for your entire life in order to replace or supplant old ones.

I can give you a lot more information about that, if you like, since neuropsychology is my specialty...but I'll put that off for now since I'll probably get really verbose otherwise :smallbiggrin:


I could see Wisdom increasing (with a penalty to Spot and Listen, perhaps), but Intelligence doesn't make sense. Gaining experience as you get older doesn't increase your intelligence; it increases your knowledge, represented in D&D by skill points (and levels used to gain them). Intelligence is supposed to represent the rate at which you learn things, not how many things you've learned. D&D Intelligence is simply how well you learn and reason. The more things you've learned, the better you become at learning, so age factors in there. The more situations you've reasoned through, the better you are at reasoning your way through a new situation, so age factors in there. Age is actually a good way of modeling it in the D&D world, even though in reality it is contingent on keeping your mind busy throughout your life rather than being strictly age-related.

Anxe
2007-08-24, 01:33 PM
I understand the stats adjustment for old age. It's just that wisdom is the stat for perception that screws it up. Everything else seems fine to me.

bugsysservant
2007-08-24, 01:59 PM
I can understand wisdom, and maybe even charisma, but intelligence is a bit of a stretch for me.
Intelligence isn't knowlege, its the capacity to reason and learn, which does indeed decrease throughout life. Thats why there is a "genius curve", the period of high mental activity characteristic throughout history. Einstein came up with the photoelectric effect, the explantation of brownian motion, and special relativety in a single year. Later in life, it took a decade (IIRC) to come up with general relativity. He died still trying to find the unified theory. And as for the continual reproduction of neurons, it does occur, but at a glacial speed, and is limited, like all cells, by the gradual shortening of telomeres, the accumulation of detrimental genes which have an effect beyond natural life expectancy, etc.. There is a period of your life where you gain more and more brain cells, and, like a switch, abruptly begin to lose them. Someone in their twenties has more cells than that same person seventy years later. My grandfather recieved a PhD in mathematics from Columbia University, but I sincerely doubt he could do that now (he's almost 90)

tainsouvra
2007-08-24, 03:07 PM
Intelligence isn't knowlege, its the capacity to reason and learn, which does indeed decrease throughout life. Actually, that's been proven to not be the case if one keeps his mind active rather than becoming mentally sedentary. The problem, of course, is that when many people retire, they stop challenging themselves, which is measurably detrimental to their brain. Connections that aren't used are allowed to deteriorate, which is why an active brain continues to function well while an inactive one quickly becomes unreliable.
Thats why there is a "genius curve", the period of high mental activity characteristic throughout history. Einstein came up with the photoelectric effect, the explantation of brownian motion, and special relativety in a single year. Later in life, it took a decade (IIRC) to come up with general relativity. He died still trying to find the unified theory. I believe that actually has more to do with social factors than intelligence--the urge to top your last achievement rather than looking like you've peaked causes one to take on bigger--and less likely to bring a quick success--challenges in succession. Basically, trying out outdo yourself each time tends to make goals that are harder to actually accomplish.
And as for the continual reproduction of neurons, it does occur, but at a glacial speed, and is limited, like all cells, by the gradual shortening of telomeres, the accumulation of detrimental genes which have an effect beyond natural life expectancy, etc.. There is a period of your life where you gain more and more brain cells, and, like a switch, abruptly begin to lose them. Other than that last sentence, I agree with you. The last one is true, but in such a way as to challenge your point--the "gain more and more" stage you mentioned ends before you reach the D&D world's "adulthood" stage, beyond that cell production is roughly the same as cell death until either you die or you develop a disease that short-circuits the whole thing (and the former is still much more common than the latter in individuals who keep busy, of course). Additionally, I brought up the cell-production process specifically to address that urban legend, not because it's a good indicator of intelligence. Please bear that in mind, as intelligence is not very well correlated to the number of neurons in the central nervous system except in cases of brain disease or disability. It is much more strongly correlated to the number and complexity of active synapses and how quickly existing neurons can transmit their information.
Someone in their twenties has more cells than that same person seventy years later. And someone who is 13 has more than someone in their 20's, but is less intelligent in the D&D sense. In a neurology sense, this is reasonable, since the structure of those neurons is not on an adult level at that point, even though the raw numbers are there.

Similarly, someone who is 20 would have a very similar number of neurons to someone who is 25, but in a neurological sense has a demonstrably less efficient brain when it comes to certain cognitive tasks due to the 25-year-old having completed the forebrain's myelinization process--which does not change the number of neurons or synapses, but makes transmissions more effective.
My grandfather recieved a PhD in mathematics from Columbia University, but I sincerely doubt he could do that now (he's almost 90) Did he retire? If so, yes, because unused connections in the brain do not receive the same level of upkeep as used connections, so he honestly could have lost some of his previous ability. If he didn't, you must be surprised. Granted, he probably couldn't drink like he used to, but he could certainly still comprehend the classroom material if he tried.