Why are Werebears good?

[huginn]

It always struck me as odd that they are good and wondered what the reasoning was? I am assuming someone agrees to become one in order to protect some area or tribe

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm guessing because Beorn from The Hobbit was a reasonably good-aligned guy, and that's what Gygax and the others were working off of.

[Necroticplague]

I'm guessing because Beorn from The Hobbit was a reasonably good-aligned guy, and that's what Gygax and the others were working off of.

This. Early dnd hadn't even filed the serial numbers off ripping off LotR, and some parts of that have remained throughout the gameline's history out of sheer inertia after they barely did so.

[lightningcat]

The more interesting part is how many similarity you can still see in the werebears presented in W:tA, even though they are generation and genres away from LotR.

[sktarq]

To an extent there are even older links. Older Bear-Warrior legends were from N European legend as In-Group members and used during battle vs say the werewolf legend where the were performing actions against the in-group (and thus evil)

[jojo]

It always struck me as odd that they are good and wondered what the reasoning was? I am assuming someone agrees to become one in order to protect some area or tribe

Why aren't Dwarves Evil? Why are Goblins not Good?

Because the game's designers decided that Werebears are Good. That's really the only valid answer to your question.

[johnbragg]

Why aren't Dwarves Evil? Why are Goblins not Good?

Because the game's designers decided that Werebears are Good. That's really the only valid answer to your question.

You typed "game designers" when you meant "Tolkien"

[jojo]

You typed "game designers" when you meant "Tolkien"

I wasn't aware that Gary Gygax wrote under a pseudonym. You learn something new every day.

[Metahuman1]

Even more ironic when you take into account that Gygax was a MUCH bigger fan of and much more interested in ripping off pulp fantasy authors like Robert E. Howard and H.P. Lovecraft.

[hamlet]

Even more ironic when you take into account that Gygax was a MUCH bigger fan of and much more interested in ripping off pulp fantasy authors like Robert E. Howard and H.P. Lovecraft.

He ripped off a lot of Tolkein's set dressing in the end because somebody told him "hey, these books are popular and you might want to include them" while he was writing. In the end, he said he really wished he hadn't on some level because everybody assumed he'd just ripped off The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings and sort of ignored the rest as time went by.

Werebears are good for a combination of The Hobbit, because of some old European legends, because he needed a balance to the other lycanthropes (hence were-ravens as well), and because it was cool. Does it need more explanation?

[huginn]

Why aren't Dwarves Evil? Why are Goblins not Good?

Because the game's designers decided that Werebears are Good. That's really the only valid answer to your question.

That really isn't an answer as it does not address the reasoning behind the decision


He ripped off a lot of Tolkein's set dressing in the end because somebody told him "hey, these books are popular and you might want to include them" while he was writing. In the end, he said he really wished he hadn't on some level because everybody assumed he'd just ripped off The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings and sort of ignored the rest as time went by.

Werebears are good for a combination of The Hobbit, because of some old European legends, because he needed a balance to the other lycanthropes (hence were-ravens as well), and because it was cool. Does it need more explanation?

I can accept this. I never like Tolkien and I grew with old werewolf movies so I viewed all lycanthropes as unnatural and evil before I tried D&D

[SaurOps]

The more interesting part is how many similarity you can still see in the werebears presented in W:tA, even though they are generation and genres away from LotR.

They went way more paleolithic bear cult with the Gurahl.

[jojo]

That really isn't an answer as it does not address the reasoning behind the decision

I did not design the werebear, therefore I cannot account for the reasoning which underlies its alignment. That was the point of my answer.

[Lord Torath]

I did not design the werebear, therefore I cannot account for the reasoning which underlies its alignment. That was the point of my answer.So if you can't add something meaningful to the discussion, why are you posting?

Unless your argument is that no one can have any idea what the developers' reasoning was, in which case I'd have to disagree. The developers were very garrulous, sometimes stating outright what their reasons were, and other times just letting us infer it from the list of books they'd read that inspired them.

[Tinkerer]

So if you can't add something meaningful to the discussion, why are you posting?

Unless your argument is that no one can have any idea what the developers' reasoning was, in which case I'd have to disagree. The developers were very garrulous, sometimes stating outright what their reasons were, and other times just letting us infer it from the list of books they'd read that inspired them.

It is still a point. D&D brought in influences from many, many, many points of origins so stating that it was "Because Tolkien" seems a little weak. Particularly because while they did use Tolkien they also drew from his inspirations as well. There are many sources which one could draw good werebears from aside from Tolkien so one important question in terms of determining the origin is "where was the earliest mention of good werebears in D&D."

[CE DM]

Beorn

evil werebears make for terrific monsters though, so by all means, make them up/use them, as other games have done.

Heck, over in middle earth, specificly MERP, it is entirely possible to have villainous characters like this: "Beorn indeed became a great chief afterwards in those regions and ruled a wide land between the mountains and the wood; and it is said that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape, and some were grim men and bad, but most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength." (The Hobbit Chapter 18 The Return Journey).

MERP has them (& Beorn) as a subset of Northmen, a race called Beornings, Beijabar or Bajaegahar.

EDIT: weak or not, the answer to many an early D&D questions was "because Tolkien"

some varied myths to take from:
http://www.hotcakencyclopedia.com/ho.Were-GrizzliesAndOtherMan-Bears.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onikuma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ungnyeo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jambavan

[D+1]

EDIT: weak or not, the answer to many an early D&D questions was "because Tolkien"
also Howard, Moorcock, Anderson, Lieber, Lovecraft, or Vance. That pretty much covers it. See also Appendix N.

[FreddyNoNose]

This. Early dnd hadn't even filed the serial numbers off ripping off LotR, and some parts of that have remained throughout the gameline's history out of sheer inertia after they barely did so.

And JRRT was guilty of ripping off.

[Arbane]

So if you can't add something meaningful to the discussion, why are you posting?

You must be new to this whole 'Internet' thing. :smallamused:

[Ashtagon]

Because Were Bears are Care Bears.

:smalltongue:

[LibraryOgre]

Because Were Bears are Care Bears.

:smalltongue:

"Werebear... stare!"
"You're not staring at him."
"No, the magical emblem is supposed to come out of my stomach."
"...that's not a magical emblem."
"Isn't it?"
"That's urine."
"But, by sharing, I feel better, and evil is vanquished. Who's to say it isn't magical?"
"That's not magical."
"Let me rephrase. I am 10 feet tall, immune to normal weapons, and made of claws, teeth, and fury. Who is going to say that's not magical?"
"... your point is taken. Can you please stare over there, at least?"
"I think this ogre needs a bit more staring."
"You're just making it weird, now, Beorn."

[Beneath]

Gygax's claim that LotR isn't an essential part of D&D's roots really has to be taken in context of him getting sued by the Tolkein estate for copyright infringement. D&D's races are very clearly Tolkein, for starters, including Hobbits (I think they were even called that in the earliest printings), Orcs, Tolkein's mistake with Hobgoblins being larger goblins, distinguishing Elves and Dwarves at all, distinguishing them by "this one lives in the woods and thinks they're better than you, this one lives underground and loved gold".

Chainmail directly drew from a system designed to allow people to wargame out battles from Middle-Earth (http://playingattheworld.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/a-precursor-to-chainmail-fantasy.html) such as the Battle of the Five Armies

Does D&D owe a lot to Conan, The Dying Earth, Elric, Barsoom, etc.? Yes, absolutely. But the idea of a D&D world populated like a D&D world came from Tolkein.

Given that, I think the claim that Beorn is the archetype for the D&D Werebear is more than plausible.

[Scots Dragon]

Gygax's claim that LotR isn't an essential part of D&D's roots really has to be taken in context of him getting sued by the Tolkein estate for copyright infringement. D&D's races are very clearly Tolkein, for starters, including Hobbits (I think they were even called that in the earliest printings), Orcs, Tolkein's mistake with Hobgoblins being larger goblins, distinguishing Elves and Dwarves at all, distinguishing them by "this one lives in the woods and thinks they're better than you, this one lives underground and loved gold".

Chainmail directly drew from a system designed to allow people to wargame out battles from Middle-Earth (http://playingattheworld.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/a-precursor-to-chainmail-fantasy.html) such as the Battle of the Five Armies

Does D&D owe a lot to Conan, The Dying Earth, Elric, Barsoom, etc.? Yes, absolutely. But the idea of a D&D world populated like a D&D world came from Tolkein.

Given that, I think the claim that Beorn is the archetype for the D&D Werebear is more than plausible.

I'm going to at least be slightly fair and say that Gygax's versions of elves leaning more towards the Chaotic Good side of the alignment tree rather than the Lawful end was probably a homage to the elves seen in Poul Anderson's novels, which came out more or less simultaneously with Tolkien's work. In fact, this is an elf described in Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword:


He looked at her through the strange slant eyes of the elves, all cloudy-blue without whites or a readily seen pupil. There were little moon-flecks drifting in Imric’s eyes, and shadows of ancient knowledge, for he had dwelt long in the land. But he was ever youthful, with the broad forehead and high cheekbones, the narrow jaw and straight thin-chiselled nose of the elf lords. His hair floated silvery-gold, finer than spider silk, from beneath his horned helmet down to the wide red-caped shoulders.

“Not often of late lifetimes have the elves gone forth among men,” said the witch.

“Aye, we have been too busy in our war with the trolls,” answered Imric in his voice that was like a wind blowing through trees far away. “But now truce has been made, and I am curious to find what has happened in the last hundred years.”

“Much, and little of it good,” said the witch. “The Danes have come from overseas, killing, looting, burning, seizing for themselves much of eastern England and I know not what else.”

“That is not bad.” Imric stroked his moustache. “Before them, Angles and Saxons did likewise, and before them Picts and Scots, and before them the Romans, and before them Brythons and Goidels, and before them-but the tale is long and long, nor will it end with the Danes. And I, who have watched it almost since the land was made, see naught of harm in it, for it helps pass the time. I would fain see these newcomers.”

“Then you need not ride far,” said the witch, “for Orm the Strong dwells on the coast, distant from here by the ride of a night. Or less on a mortal horse.”

“A short trip for my stallion. I will go.”

“Hold-hold, elf!” For a while the witch sat muttering, and her eyes caught what light came from the tiny fire on the hearth, so that two red gleams moved amidst the smoke and shadows. Then of a sudden she cackled in glee and screamed, “Aye, ride, ride, elf, to Orm’s house by the sea. He is gone a-roving, but his wife will guest you gladly. She has newly brought forth a son, who is not yet christened.”

At these words Imric cocked his long, pointed ears forward. “Speak you sooth, witch?” he asked, low and toneless.

That's pretty much the original D&D elf.

[MeeposFire]

Another reference to LotR are Balrogs. Armed with whips of flame and a sword? At times there were also a very limited number of them just like in LotR (a specified number that is).

[DrewID]

Because Were Bears are Care Bears.

:smalltongue:

To be fair, D&D's Were-bears date to 1974, while Care Bears don't appear until 1981. :biggrin:

DrewID

[DrewID]

Werebears are good for a combination of The Hobbit, because of some old European legends, because he needed a balance to the other lycanthropes (hence were-ravens as well), and because it was cool. Does it need more explanation?

Actually, it looks like the were-raven didn't appear until Ravenloft, some time after Gary and TSR had parted ways.

DrewID

[Rockphed]

"Werebear... stare!"
"You're not staring at him."
"No, the magical emblem is supposed to come out of my stomach."
"...that's not a magical emblem."
"Isn't it?"
"That's urine."
"But, by sharing, I feel better, and evil is vanquished. Who's to say it isn't magical?"
"That's not magical."
"Let me rephrase. I am 10 feet tall, immune to normal weapons, and made of claws, teeth, and fury. Who is going to say that's not magical?"
"... your point is taken. Can you please stare over there, at least?"
"I think this ogre needs a bit more staring."
"You're just making it weird, now, Beorn."

I'm not sure why, but I find this hilarious. Now I want to make a werecarebeare.

[LibraryOgre]

I'm not sure why, but I find this hilarious. Now I want to make a werecarebeare.

I'm glad SOMEONE does. I swear, I waste my best material on you people. :smallwink:

[Adeon Hawkwood]

I think part of it may also be that culturally Bears are regarded as defensive fighters as opposed to active hunters. Obviously this isn't exactly accurate but it's a perception that tends to persist, in part due to bears size and tendency to hibernate over winter.

This perceptions makes bears into Guardians, contrasted with wolves who are culturally regarded as hunters. Guarding something is generally regarded as a "good" trait so by extension were-bears are good.

[Amdy_vill]

I would have to agree with the lotR rip as I have never been able to find much on the concept of werebears before lotR

[LibraryOgre]

I would have to agree with the lotR rip as I have never been able to find much on the concept of werebears before lotR

Berzerkers and hamfarir of the vikings would be bear shapechangers.

[Lord Torath]

I thought the viking/berzerkers were more likely to be wolf-men rather than bear-men.

Happy to be proven wrong, though.

[Scots Dragon]

I thought the viking/berzerkers were more likely to be wolf-men rather than bear-men.

Happy to be proven wrong, though.

The berserkers were literally derived from 'bear-shirt' according to our best modern translation. They were literally interpreted as a form of 'bear warrior'.

[SimperingToad]

As I recall from a little light reading many moons ago, there were the 'bear-shirts' (berserkir) and 'wolf-coats' (ulfhednar). Pardon spelling errors.

But, yeah, the werebear is certainly a reference to Beornings. One of many Tolkienisms in OD&D. And he probably got the idea from berserkers.

[jojo]

The berserkers were literally derived from 'bear-shirt' according to our best modern translation. They were literally interpreted as a form of 'bear warrior'.

It's worth noting that the "best modern" translation has major flaws.

1. 13th century historian Snorri Sturluson disagreed with it, he thought it meant "Bare" not "bear" as in they didn't wear shirts. This is supported by a similar concept the "ber-skjaldadr" which modern folks accept means "bare of shield."

2. Regardless of ability to apply the historical method Sturluson was a native speaker of the language in question, so his etymological interpretation is probably of greater validity than the modern one.

3. "Ber as Bear" relies on medieval German "Berr = Urusus = Bear." Germanic languages are descended through linguistic drift from Nordic languages, so proposing that a Medieval German word would be a synonym for an old Norse word simply because it is homonymic in a third, entirely separate language which is both geographically and temporally unrelated to either of the languages in question is comical.

[LibraryOgre]

3. "Ber as Bear" relies on medieval German "Berr = Urusus = Bear." Germanic languages are descended through linguistic drift from Nordic languages, so proposing that a Medieval German word would be a synonym for an old Norse word simply because it is homonymic in a third, entirely separate language which is both geographically and temporally unrelated to either of the languages in question is comical.

That's reversed; Old Norse derived from Proto-Norse, which itself was a Northern Germanic dialect.

[jojo]

That's reversed; Old Norse derived from Proto-Norse, which itself was a Northern Germanic dialect.

I agree that Old Norse derived from Proto-Norse and also that both languages in question, along with Proto-Germanic and Old High German are "Northern Germanic Dialects."

The issue is that these are in and of themselves distinct from Germanic dialects, particularly the Western Germanic Dialects which is where the Berr/Ber issue comes into play.
There will always be a bit of uncertainty about exactly when this occurred, but it was definitely in full force by 700 CE, with 200 CE being one of the first dates that I see thrown out there as I fact check myself.

So, here's the relationship breakdown:

Evolution of North Germanic Languages

Proto-Indo-European --> Indo-European --> Proto-Germanic --> Proto-Norse --> Old Norse (Old West Norse, Old East Norse, Old Gutnish) --> North Germanic Languages (Danish, Faroese, Icelandic, Norwegian, Swedish) and their dialects.

Evolution of West Germanic Languages

North and East Germanic Language Groups Emerge (From Proto-Germanic)
^
l
l
Proto-Indo-European --> Indo-European --> Proto-Germanic --> West Germanic Languages Emerge: Ingvaeonic (North Sea Germanic), Irminonic (Elbe Germanic) and Istvaeonic (Weser-Rhine Germanic) --> Old High German --> So on and so forth.

There's not a significant enough relationship to make the assertion that "ber-serkr is special." If "ber-Hjalmr" is "Bare-of-Helmet/Bareheaded" and "ber-fotr" is "Barefoot" and "ber-skjaldadr" is "bare-of-shield" Then it follows that ber-serkr means "bare-of-shirt." The fact that one of the more prominent and earliest Norse Historians offered a perfectly viable explanation offers another pretty strong argument in and of itself.

Further argument against the interpretation of Ber-Serkr as "Bear Warrior" would be the fact that both the Ulfhednar and Svinfylking (Wolf Coats and Boar Heads, respectively) are described in sagas as "Ber-Serkr" or "Berserkgang" (i.e. to "go ber-serkr").

I fully acknowledge that I'm not a professional linguist, but if an hour of research provides this many contradictory points for the "modern interpretation" then I certainly reserve the right to stick with the more closely contemporary explanation of "bare-chested badasses." :smalltongue: