Great Old One patron isn't very Great Old One-y

[Rebonack]

When I think of someone getting involved with ineffable horrors from beyond reality, I tend to imagine that would involve lots of scary insanity effects with maybe a side of conjuring up things which ought not be.

Instead, we've got half the Telepathy ability, the power to steal someone's luck (what?), mind-shielding, and the ability to make someone a bit more inclined to respond favorably to your Cha skill checks. The luck stealing is the odd one out, but otherwise these are all vaguely psionic abilities. But most Great Old Ones don't seem very psionic-ish to me? Yog Sothoth is (supposedly) the root source of all sorcerous power in the multiverse. Shub seems more aligned with druid-style magic than anything else. Theruzdun is associated with evil elemental doom. And Dendar is all about nightmares. And Ol' Squidbeard killed people via sheer horror and drove the rest insane. If anything, the Great Old One patron as written would probably fit better as a pact with an Elder Brain than anything actually listed in the entry.

Now, I'm not saying the GoO patron is bad as such. Just that the mechanical abilities it brings to the table don't really resonate with the source material. It doesn't help much that the source material is incredibly broad.

[Temperjoke]

1. No official Psionic rules yet for 5e, and weren't even in development at the time that the PHB was written.

2. You are confusing classic Great Old Ones from Lovecraft, etc., with Great Old Ones that have been in D&D, which are different things that were inspired from Lovecraftian ideas, but are still different.

[polymphus]

Entropic Ward isn't stealing luck -- it's some sorta space magic. There's entropy right there in the name: you're reaching out with the power of the endless cosmic cold, and sucking all the energy outta somebody.

I think a lot of the Lovecraft-ness comes from the spell list: Dissonant Whispers, Tasha's, Phantasmal Force: these are all pretty good ways to drive somebody mad and they're powerful spells to boot, so you'll be using them a lot.

Your telepathy lets you whisper dark secrets to your enemies while they sleep, in a voice like a bag of razor blades filled with tar. For basically no resources, you walk through the world driving men mad.

[Rebonack]

1. No official Psionic rules yet for 5e, and weren't even in development at the time that the PHB was written.

Talking to people telepathically, mentally influencing them, and shielding your mind from meddling are all pretty classic psychic powers whether there are official psionics rules or not.


2. You are confusing classic Great Old Ones from Lovecraft, etc., with Great Old Ones that have been in D&D, which are different things that were inspired from Lovecraftian ideas, but are still different.

The three examples of potential Great Old Ones listed in the Warlock entry are Tharuzdun, Dendar, and Cthulhu.

The Chained God rules over a broken, shattered Prime that has basically been turned into one giant churning maelstrom of elemental chaos swarming with demons. That isn't very psychic-y.

The Night Serpent devours nightmares and will eventually devour the world. Sleep and nightmares are, as a theme, a bit closer but still a far cry from the subclass abilities the GoO patron grants.

And Ol' Squidbeard struck such terror into onlookers that they perished from fear or went insane. Also not captured by the mechanical abilities the patron grants. Incidentally, he's also a classic Lovecraftian deity.

[Tanarii]

But most Great Old Ones don't seem very psionic-ish to me? Yog Sothoth is (supposedly) the root source of all sorcerous power in the multiverse. Shub seems more aligned with druid-style magic than anything else. Theruzdun is associated with evil elemental doom. And Dendar is all about nightmares. And Ol' Squidbeard killed people via sheer horror and drove the rest insane. If anything, the Great Old One patron as written would probably fit better as a pact with an Elder Brain than anything actually listed in the entry.
D&D Great Old One Patron often has Far Realm connotations, which is definitely psionic-ish.

[Naanomi]

TThe Chained God rules over a broken, shattered Prime that has basically been turned into one giant churning maelstrom of elemental chaos swarming with demons. That isn't very psychic-y.
Sounds very 4e... last I knew Tharzidun was sealed in the Prison Plane by the other Gods of Oerth and (except for manipulating a handful of demon lords to work for him under an alias) didn’t have much to do with demons at all

[Unoriginal]

Chtulhu didn't kill people with fear thanks to a special power. It's just that his presence is so fearsome that the stress kills you or give you PTSD if you're not prepared for that.

The powers Chtulhu actually demonstrated were all about influencing the human mind on a world-wide scale

[JackPhoenix]

GOOs in D&D are usualy linked with Far Realm. Since 4e (arguably, since Eberron's Xoriat), psionics is based on Far Realm.

Also, both Fiend and GOO patrons are so radically different that it would be impossible to generalize all of them into common subclass. How can warlocks serving demons throw someone to Nine Hells? Why does Orcus grant fiery spells?

[Temperjoke]

Talking to people telepathically, mentally influencing them, and shielding your mind from meddling are all pretty classic psychic powers whether there are official psionics rules or not.



The three examples of potential Great Old Ones listed in the Warlock entry are Tharuzdun, Dendar, and Cthulhu.

The Chained God rules over a broken, shattered Prime that has basically been turned into one giant churning maelstrom of elemental chaos swarming with demons. That isn't very psychic-y.

The Night Serpent devours nightmares and will eventually devour the world. Sleep and nightmares are, as a theme, a bit closer but still a far cry from the subclass abilities the GoO patron grants.

And Ol' Squidbeard struck such terror into onlookers that they perished from fear or went insane. Also not captured by the mechanical abilities the patron grants. Incidentally, he's also a classic Lovecraftian deity.

Okay, the examples they give as Patrons aren't the greatest, which is partially the fault of trying to provide for a multitude of settings that this type of warlock could be in. None of the pacts are intended to exactly copy their source patron though. The telepathy parts have their source in psionics because a large part of the flavor of this pact, in other editions and 5e, in the Far Realm, which is big on psionics. Further emphasis on the Far Realm and the old Star Pact is shown in the new book Xanatar's Guide to Everything, where many of the eldritch invocations are named for other Great Old Ones. Frankly, I think they shouldn't have tried to give examples because they do cause confusion for people, who are more used to Lovecraftian Great Old Ones.

And like so many other things in 5e, you are confusing mechanics with character roleplay. You can certainly act like a madman trying to inspire fear and chaos in your enemies. The mechanics support it: Awakened Mind means you can send telepathic whispers into any creature you can see, if it understands a langauge. That means you see an enemy, you can mental whisper terrifying things directly into it's mind, whether it's a friend or a foe. Entropic Ward is a chaos concept, you make them potentially fail, and if they do, then you have a greater chance to succeed when attacking them. "Luck" is an aspect of chaos after all. Thought Shield is a reflection of how strengthened your mind has become, how resistant it is to outside mental intrusion. Create Thrall charms the person, which means they can't attack you at all, with any abilities, and have a difficult time resisting your will. Funny, that sounds a lot like what the Great Old Ones can do to people who gaze upon them, overwhelming their free will.

[Millstone85]

The luck stealing is the odd one out, but otherwise these are all vaguely psionic abilities. But most Great Old Ones don't seem very psionic-ish to me?
If anything, the Great Old One patron as written would probably fit better as a pact with an Elder Brain than anything actually listed in the entry.
D&D Great Old One Patron often has Far Realm connotations, which is definitely psionic-ish.
GOOs in D&D are usualy linked with Far Realm. Since 4e (arguably, since Eberron's Xoriat), psionics is based on Far Realm.
The telepathy parts have their source in psionics because a large part of the flavor of this pact, in other editions and 5e, in the Far Realm, which is big on psionics.4e did establish some clear connections:
* Many of the stars in the night sky are sentient and potential patrons (e.g. a black hole named Hadar).
* Among those, many are also touched by the Far Realm.
* Aberrations, such as aboleths, beholders and illithids, are from the Far Realm in one way or another.
* Psionics came either from the Far Realm, or as a sort of immune response against it.

And yeah, while that's not quite the lore anymore, it still shows in the 5e GOO.


The three examples of potential Great Old Ones listed in the Warlock entry are Tharuzdun, Dendar, and Cthulhu.Don't forget Ghaunadaur and Zargon.


The Chained God rules over a broken, shattered Prime that has basically been turned into one giant churning maelstrom of elemental chaos swarming with demons.
Sounds very 4e... last I knew Tharzidun was sealed in the Prison Plane by the other Gods of Oerth and (except for manipulating a handful of demon lords to work for him under an alias) didn’t have much to do with demons at allOh, it is even funnier than that.

There is Greyhawk Tharizdun, never mentioned in 4e as far as I remember.

Then there is Nentir Vale Tharizdun, who also got imprisoned but for creating the Abyss.

And then there is an alternate reality Nentir Vale Tharizdun, mentioned in Dragon#373's Ecology of the Sharn (also different from the Forgotten Realms sharns), which is possibly the one Rebonack was thinking about.

Oh boy, does it feel like trying to understand comic books with their crises on infinite earths and stuff...


How can warlocks serving demons throw someone to Nine Hells?While the feature is called Hurl Through Hell, it is described as a journey through the lower planes.


Entropic Ward is a chaos concept, you make them potentially fail, and if they do, then you have a greater chance to succeed when attacking them. "Luck" is an aspect of chaos after all.Chaos sure has a lot of planes these days. The Outer Planes of chaotic alignment, the Elemental Chaos, the Far Realm, and maybe the Feywild too.