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bc56
2018-01-01, 09:06 PM
As a DM, how do you convince players to do what you want (in terms of going a certain direction in a dungeon) without making it obvious that you are doing so?

exelsisxax
2018-01-01, 09:16 PM
Be a good DM, and want to do what the players want(within reason).

Alternatively, tell them what you want and don't try to make things too complicated.

flond
2018-01-01, 09:48 PM
As a DM, how do you trick players into doing what you want (in terms of going a certain direction in a dungeon) without making it obvious that you are doing so?

If you don't want them to have a choice, why are you pretending to give them one?

SirBellias
2018-01-01, 10:06 PM
For something you want them to break:

"You see this thing. It looks perfectly ordinary and quite breakable (or unbreakable, it doesn't matter, someone will break it)."

Other than that, get an NPC to tell them something that will lead them in the right direction.

Or just tell them which way will be most interesting to you and see if they care.

One of my favorites is the Wand of Plot Detection. You don't have to tell them what it does. They'll never find out.

Describe things in ways that sound like options.

Mike Miller
2018-01-01, 10:07 PM
"The left hallway has scratch marks up and down the walls and floor. There is dried blood caked into the scratches throughout and rust colored pools litter the floor. The walls seem to pulsate slightly and after looking in that direction for only a few seconds you seem to feel light headed and uneasy.

Down the right corridor are cupcakes and hot cocoa. Where would you like to go?"

Also, the above posters make good points. You could just have the dungeon be linear if you really need the PCs to go a certain way. PCs always do the unexpected. If you need the location to be certain, remove false options. Being railroady isn't great, but doing it sometimes is fine.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-01-01, 10:52 PM
Why would I want to do that?

Mastikator
2018-01-01, 10:58 PM
I would never do anything so deceptive as to undercut their agency.

I would just rearrange the dungeon so that whatever path they took is the one I wanted them to take.

Incorrect
2018-01-02, 06:16 AM
Have an NPC steal their stuff and run away. They will chase him to the end of the world. Just have him run the way you want them to go.

bc56
2018-01-02, 07:09 AM
If you don't want them to have a choice, why are you pretending to give them one?

You misunderstand my intent. If I didn't want them to have a choice, I would not be putting a fork in the dungeon anyway.

Let me explain:
Down path #A, there is a locked door. Down path #B, there is the key. However, the key doesn't look like a key, so it would likely be overlooked if the lock isn't first seen. That is why I want the players to go down path #A first.

RazorChain
2018-01-02, 07:19 AM
You misunderstand my intent. If I didn't want them to have a choice, I would not be putting a fork in the dungeon anyway.

Let me explain:
Down path #A, there is a locked door. Down path #B, there is the key. However, the key doesn't look like a key, so it would likely be overlooked if the lock isn't first seen. That is why I want the players to go down path #A first.

I like how you think, because else they'd have to backtrack? Hey...but what happens if there is someone with a lockpick when they go down path #A or they decide just to smash the door? We can't have our players come up with shenigans like that! But cool of you to give them choice though, we wouldn't want to take that away from them

RazorChain
2018-01-02, 07:22 AM
I would never do anything so deceptive as to undercut their agency.

I would just rearrange the dungeon so that whatever path they took is the one I wanted them to take.

Absolutely brilliant....it's a linear path but they don't know it......mwuhahah I like the way you think. If only we could find away to control their die rolls!

Koo Rehtorb
2018-01-02, 07:32 AM
Every time your players do something you don't want them to do ask them "Are you sure you want to do that?" and start ruffling your papers ominously. They'll get the message.

Guizonde
2018-01-02, 07:33 AM
Have an NPC steal their stuff and run away. They will chase him to the end of the world. Just have him run the way you want them to go.

this is too true. it's a running gag in my team to get our gear taken away. we both love and hate when that happens because it forces the players to think as a team and solve things aside from blasting everything in our path.

that said, we did once go back after 8 sessions (read: 5 months irl) just to beat up the [redacted] son of a [redacted] that stole our stuff. we had a bunch of better gear, but it was the principle of the thing. that, and it was our starting gear that we had lovingly kept and upgraded until midgame. it brought closure that for the last session we went and got it back to finish the epilogue with it.

as for subliminal messaging, i'd say hand out all the options, and let the players squabble it out. usually, there'll be a fink in the group that'll always err on the side of caution and investigation. could be a rogue, could be a scout or sniper. that dude will always be listened to when there's plot and advantages to be had. just make sure that the snooping choice is the one you want to hand out. be ready to improvise, especially if your team has access to explosives. alternatively, just wait for them to backtrack when they hit a hard stop: no enemies to kill? no obvious clues? a dead-end (with an unseen secret passage) perhaps? well, there was a fork a few rooms back, maybe there's a clue there.

Airk
2018-01-02, 10:45 AM
I would never do anything so deceptive as to undercut their agency.

I would just rearrange the dungeon so that whatever path they took is the one I wanted them to take.

Please tell me this was supposed to be in blue text.

Tinkerer
2018-01-02, 01:01 PM
"The left hallway has scratch marks up and down the walls and floor. There is dried blood caked into the scratches throughout and rust colored pools litter the floor. The walls seem to pulsate slightly and after looking in that direction for only a few seconds you seem to feel light headed and uneasy.

Down the right corridor are cupcakes and hot cocoa. Where would you like to go?"

That is a fantastic idea for making sure that the party goes down the left hallway. The cupcakes and hot cocoa are obviously a trap and most likely a trap without any treasure at that.

Anyway I don't really see the need to have them go down route #1 first, although it may change the description for the key and or lock depending on which route they head down first. If you are set upon sending them down that hallway first though maybe have them glimpse something interesting scuttling down the hallway ahead of them. Or if the group often follows the left/right hand rule set it along that path. Or something of some sort attracts their attention like a glowing light. Nothing that I would really call subliminal.

bc56
2018-01-02, 01:15 PM
I like how you think, because else they'd have to backtrack? Hey...but what happens if there is someone with a lockpick when they go down path #A or they decide just to smash the door? We can't have our players come up with shenigans like that! But cool of you to give them choice though, we wouldn't want to take that away from them

Oh, if they want to smash or pick the door that leads to the area with monsters that will kill them because they need the XP from the area they should have backtracked to, they can certainly do that. I just don't want a TPK.

Ronnocius
2018-01-02, 01:15 PM
It sucks that you are trying to ask a question and the response most people will give you is: "Why are you being so deceptive to your players! You are taking away their agency! You are a horrible DM!"

When someone gives you the response you're looking for: "Please tell me that was in blue text, surely you are being sarcastic instead of trying to answer the question the guy is asking!"

If you are just going to tell him how "deceptive" and "evil" he is for "taking away his player's choices", please don't reply at all. It isn't helpful and (in my opinion) makes you look bad.

bc56
2018-01-02, 01:16 PM
It sucks that you are trying to ask a question and the only response people will give you is: "Why are you being so deceptive to your players! You are taking away their agency! You are a horrible DM!"

When someone gives you the response you're looking for: "Please tell me that was in blue text, surely you are being sarcastic instead of trying to answer the question the guy is asking!"

If you are just going to tell him how "deceptive" and "evil" he is for "taking away his player's choices", please don't reply at all. It isn't helpful and (in my opinion) makes you look bad.

Thank you very much.

Airk
2018-01-02, 01:26 PM
So I guess lying to people is fine? Sorry, I'll show myself out.

Seriously, if you don't want them to have choices, don't give them choices, don't pretend you are giving them choices and have them all go to the same place or give them choices and then deceive them into picking the one you want. =/

RazorChain
2018-01-02, 01:30 PM
It sucks that you are trying to ask a question and the response most people will give you is: "Why are you being so deceptive to your players! You are taking away their agency! You are a horrible DM!"

When someone gives you the response you're looking for: "Please tell me that was in blue text, surely you are being sarcastic instead of trying to answer the question the guy is asking!"

If you are just going to tell him how "deceptive" and "evil" he is for "taking away his player's choices", please don't reply at all. It isn't helpful and (in my opinion) makes you look bad.

Which is why I am very careful to use blue text to answer the OP, else I'll get all the agency matters crusaders to tell us we're having badwrongfun, for all they know we're running a game for bunch of idiots who sorely need to be guided

Airk
2018-01-02, 01:48 PM
Which is why I am very careful to use blue text to answer the OP, else I'll get all the agency matters crusaders to tell us we're having badwrongfun, for all they know we're running a game for bunch of idiots who sorely need to be guided

If you are, you don't need to fool them. :)

It's not a question of "no agency BAAAD" it's a question of not being duplicitous. And yes, I will crusade against people lying to their friends. Not sorry.

LordEntrails
2018-01-02, 02:08 PM
Just put the locked door right at the intersection. And make it that they can not pick the lock or break down the door (or otherwise bypass it). That way they know they need a key and will come back here when they find it. It avoids all the false choice and the possibilities of your players not doing what you want.

RazorChain
2018-01-02, 02:21 PM
If you are, you don't need to fool them. :)

It's not a question of "no agency BAAAD" it's a question of not being duplicitous. And yes, I will crusade against people lying to their friends. Not sorry.

It's not lying, he's just trying to help out his friends, steer them in the right direction so they succeed. You can't fault him for that just because he wants to control both the NPC's and the PC's. I mean a PC is just an NPC with the N removed!

bc56
2018-01-02, 02:48 PM
Listen, I asked a serious question, and O don't want to hear a few dozen people passive-aggressively chastise me about trying to influence, not control the players' choices. I got some info on this from Angry, and I was hoping someone else could give me more tips, but all I got is "if you want to lie to your friends, I won't stop you, but I want to."

http://theangrygm.com/mm-exit-mapping-part-1/

Max_Killjoy
2018-01-02, 03:16 PM
As a DM, how do you trick players into doing what you want (in terms of going a certain direction in a dungeon) without making it obvious that you are doing so?

You don't.

bc56
2018-01-02, 03:23 PM
You don't.

Would you care to elaborate? That could be up there for the most helpful comment on this thread, if there was some explanation.

Ronnocius
2018-01-02, 03:47 PM
If you are, you don't need to fool them. :)

It's not a question of "no agency BAAAD" it's a question of not being duplicitous. And yes, I will crusade against people lying to their friends. Not sorry.

Yes, because trying to influence people to make decisions that will keep their characters alive is so incredibly manipulative, honestly any DM trying to give their characters a fair fight is such a manipulative con artist, he should be thrown in prison immediately. Also don't get me started on DMs who ask "are you sure" when their 1st level players try to fight a dragon. How dare he give them a chance to second guess themselves, obviously he is a manipulative puppet master controlling their every movement. DMs like this ruin the game, they should all be hunted down and burned at the stake.

EXAMPLES OF DMs MANIPULATING PLAYERS:
Our NPC guide suggests that we head north because it is the easiest path to the village? Get your torches and pitchforks out, because this DM is stealing all of our player agency!
The tracks of the monster we are pursuing go left? What a con man, he is obviously forcing us to go left, I hate this railroading!

Max_Killjoy
2018-01-02, 03:56 PM
Would you care to elaborate? That could be up there for the most helpful comment on this thread, if there was some explanation.

You present the situation using the information that the PCs would have, and you let them make their decision.

If there's nothing there to distinguish the two corridors, then there's nothing for the PCs to see.

If there is something to make one corridor seem different from the other, then you convey exactly that to the PCs, possibly contingent on rolls or some other mechanical factor.

IMO, the GM should never be trying to trick the players. A NPC might be trying to, the environment might happen to, but the GM shouldn't as a starting goal be looking to trick the players for the sake of tricking them.

Max_Killjoy
2018-01-02, 04:06 PM
EXAMPLES OF DMs MANIPULATING PLAYERS:
Our NPC guide suggests that we head north because it is the easiest path to the village? Get your torches and pitchforks out, because this DM is stealing all of our player agency!
The tracks of the monster we are pursuing go left? What a con man, he is obviously forcing us to go left, I hate this railroading!



If you're going to provide examples, you should provide examples of what you say you're going to provide examples of.

Neither of those is an example of a GM manipulating or tricking or deceiving players, or of a GM railroading players, or of a GM infringing on player agency.

If you intend to be sarcastic, it's not helping the discussion.

If someone has actually expressed those responses to those situations, it's because they don't understand what they're talking about and are using buzzwords to get their way.

Psyren
2018-01-02, 04:40 PM
As a DM, how do you trick players into doing what you want (in terms of going a certain direction in a dungeon) without making it obvious that you are doing so?

Part of the issue I think is that right off the bat, you are framing your desire as "tricking players" and that kind of terminology is all but guaranteed to rub people the wrong way. After all, a lot of us are players too :smalltongue:

Instead of a trick, this is a bit of a magic act - the illusion of choice. Steering your players towards the direction you want them to go in by making that route more attractive, or the other way(s) more foreboding or disinviting, at least at first. CRPGs do this all the time, and while it's a bit harder to pull off effectively in tabletop (as it's not a visual medium), it's still possible.

I link Extra Credits videos a lot in this subforum because I believe wholeheartedly in a "GM as game designer" philosophy, and the one you'll want here is The Illusion of Choice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45PdtGDGhac) - specifically 4:37 where they start talking about the very topic you're asking about, ways to make a player subconsciously choose the route you want them to take instead of the one you don't. This can be trickier in a cooperative game because the players might feel braver/stronger together and thus ignore your cues to go a different route, but it's not impossible to get the message across - you just have to tailor your methods to the strengths (and weaknesses) of your players.

Thrudd
2018-01-02, 04:52 PM
Ideally, you don't design scenarios in which the players need to be guided anywhere, and certainly not "tricked". You design them so the players are free to make their own choices, based on information you have provided them about the situation, and you allow the outcome of their choices to be dictated by the rules of the game and the rational reaction of the environment.

If an event absolutely needs to happen in your game, you narrate it happening. Preferably, all the necessary narration happens at the beginning of the game or session, before you set the players free to engage with the scenario.

So, for instance, if you want the players to go on a quest to fight a dragon and save the kingdom, you tell them that the game will be about a quest to fight a dragon and they should make characters that want to save the kingdom and maybe that know each other. Then you describe the setting and set-up to them, and let them figure out how to find and fight the dragon.

You don't start out with four characters wandering into a town for unrelated reasons, and then try to contrive a convenient reason that they meet each other, and then contrive reasons why they have to stay together, and then contrive a reason why they would volunteer to go after a dragon, and then contrive a reason why they can't change their mind and abandon the quest.

They need to be able to succeed or fail based on their choices. That's the game part of a role playing game. You aren't trying specifically to defeat them, but you also aren't letting them win. You are challenging them to figure out the scenario and to choose where and how to take risks and where to play it safe and the best way to use their game resources (character abilities and equipment, etc.). You can make the scenario as easy or as difficult as you want, but you don't control what happens.

Ronnocius
2018-01-02, 06:58 PM
If you're going to provide examples, you should provide examples of what you say you're going to provide examples of.

Neither of those is an example of a GM manipulating or tricking or deceiving players, or of a GM railroading players, or of a GM infringing on player agency.

If you intend to be sarcastic, it's not helping the discussion.

If someone has actually expressed those responses to those situations, it's because they don't understand what they're talking about and are using buzzwords to get their way.

The entire message was sarcastic, but I'm not sure how to do blue text. Anyways, the examples were meant to show how stupid the argument that influencing players to go a certain way is taking away their agency.

I agree that "trick" may not have been the best choice of words, but what the original poster was asking for was pretty clear. Definitely doesn't excuse the tidal wave of "I'm not going to help you because you want advice on how to do something 'deceptive' (give me a break...), so instead I will preach about how bad it is to deceive players!"

The original poster made it clear all he wants is advice on how to discreetly lead the players to take a certain course of action.
If you want to say how influencing players to take a certain path in a dungeon is "lying to your friends" (???) then do it somewhere else, THAT is what isn't helping the discussion.

bc56
2018-01-02, 07:31 PM
The entire message was sarcastic, but I'm not sure how to do blue text. Anyways, the examples were meant to show how stupid the argument that influencing players to go a certain way is taking away their agency.

I agree that "trick" may not have been the best choice of words, but what the original poster was asking for was pretty clear. Definitely doesn't excuse the tidal wave of "I'm not going to help you because you want advice on how to do something 'deceptive' (give me a break...), so instead I will preach about how bad it is to deceive players!"

The original poster made it clear all he wants is advice on how to discreetly lead the players to take a certain course of action.
If you want to say how influencing players to take a certain path in a dungeon is "lying to your friends" (???) then do it somewhere else, THAT is what isn't helping the discussion.

Thanks so much again. I do admit trick is bad wording, but I couldn't think of a better choice. (I can now: convince).

As I will repeat, I intended to pose a serious question, but almost all the answers I received were either sarcasm or "you're mean and evil because you manipulate your players."

LordEntrails
2018-01-02, 07:37 PM
Be aware, the words you use to convince your players to make the choices you want them to make is going to be even more critical and important than the words you use to frame your question on this forum. So if you can't come up with the right words here, you'll have more trouble in front of your players.

So, I suggest you don't use words to guide your players along the path you want, but you need to design your adventures to keep them going the way you want, or design them to deviate without harming your plot.

I suggest you Google "Prepping plots" "jacquaying" and "five room dungeon". Lots of good advice there.

RazorChain
2018-01-02, 07:46 PM
Thanks so much again. I do admit trick is bad wording, but I couldn't think of a better choice. (I can now: convince).

As I will repeat, I intended to pose a serious question, but almost all the answers I received were either sarcasm or "you're mean and evil because you manipulate your players."

What you are after is a technique called illusionism. It simply is the appearance of choice where there is none

If you need your players to go down path #A in a branching path then both paths lead to the same destination.

If the group didnt go to the haunted house where you wanted them to go then you'll just place the haunted house elsewhere

Just google illusionism and rpg and you'll find more on the subject

bc56
2018-01-02, 10:40 PM
Due to the lack of useful replies, I, as OP, hereby disown this thread. I will not post anymore on this thread, nor will I check the thread. I advise everyone who is following this thread to leave it alone, because all your preaching on the "evil" of trying to help players achieve their objectives has only annoyed and bored me, not convinced me of your point. Don't bother posting on this thread in the future.

I would like to heartily thank Ronnocius for his stalwart promotion of my original intent with this thread. :biggrin:

Thank you also to Incorrect, LordEntrails, and Psyren for giving serious and helpful replies. :smallsmile:

Psyren
2018-01-03, 12:45 AM
Thank you also to Incorrect, LordEntrails, and Psyren for giving serious and helpful replies. :smallsmile:

You're welcome and all the best on future queries

Segev
2018-01-03, 02:50 PM
Hm. Too bad the OP left.

I was going to say that, given the specific example of the locked door down corridor A, with the somewhat inobvious key down B, I'd let them go either way they want. When they have explored both, if they haven't already come to the conclusion on their own to do whatever backtracking is needed to re-examine things, I'd let them use skills to investigate.

I might even go so far as to tell the lockpicking rogue that, now that he examines the lock, it looks a lot like that doohickey they saw down the other corridor might fit in it. Or offer Int checks for people to put it together.

Generally, I wouldn't try to convince them to go to the door first, because even if they miss the inobvious key the first time, the CHARACTERS have seen it, so there are mechanics that justify reminding the PLAYERS of what their characters might remember/think of.

Darth Ultron
2018-01-03, 07:06 PM
Hm. Too bad the OP left.

I know....I never got to add in my two coppers.




I was going to say that, given the specific example of the locked door down corridor A, with the somewhat inobvious key down B, I'd let them go either way they want.


So, for any others then the OP that might be wondering about this question and would like an answer without the predictable responses from the Everyone Collective:

Now you can do the Segev way, otherwise known as the Time Filler Way. The DM just makes up random stuff and absurdity lets the amazing players just do whatever they want (''within reason'').

So if you have two hallways with two locked doors....A leads to something, and B leads to nothing....the DM just sits back...maybe in another room, and takes no action what so ever...other then to react to what the players do. So if, the Most amazing players on the Planet decide they want to spend two hours trying to get through door B and find nothing.....the DM lets them. The DM should just sit back, smile and tell the players how great they are and be in awe.

Now the above is a perfectly fine way to play the game, and it's very popular.....for some people.

Not the way I do it of course:

First off, why NOT be obvious? Hallway A is a well traveled and clean hallway with low burning torches set along the walls leading to a closed door with well oiled hinges and a good quality lock. Hallway B is full of spider webs, rubble and is dark with a closed door at the end with hinges rusted shut and a good lock on the door. Does one way seem more obvious? I like to go more with the: Way A is a plain stone hallway and Way B is a black stone hallway with the walls and floor covered in oddly wet blood that slowly flows around over the stones. Hum, is one more obvious?

Of course...the real trick and secret about being obvious is that everyone has their own view point. What is ''obvious''? What is obvious to a DM, might not be obvious to a player....or even just one person to another.

Second, there is no point in giving the players a choice if there is no choice for them to make. If you do, your just wasting time. At best your just filling up time. And why would you want to do that? So if you have two hallways just do: A leads to the adventure and B is a dull boring dead end with nothing at all in it. See, easy.

Third, try and keep in mind there is no ''right'' way for the players to go....there is just the way they choose to go. And in a general sense as a DM you really want to be as neutral as possible about the way the players go....as long as they A)Are doing something meaningful and B)following the story adventure. Of course if your game has no story adventure, then it does not matter.


So when you make things for an adventure don't think of it in ways right or wrong or ways to go and not go. Really, you want the characters to go everywhere. And with this in mind, make everywhere interesting. It is not 100% realistic, but then again the game is fiction anyway. So make every way interesting and every way a mix of good and bad....try to avoid all of both. You want a trap/treasure at every turn.

PopeLinus1
2018-01-03, 09:28 PM
Ooh Ooh I know this one!

Put a ton of Neon Signs pointing in one direction... and make that the one you don't want them to go!