Best Caster?

[GoblinGuy]

Just give me your opinion on your favorite caster or the caster you think is the best.

[Willie the Duck]

There is no "best caster," although there probably is a "best caster for X" for quite a few specific Xs. As for favorite, I am having a lot of fun with a Celestial Pact Tome Warlock. Short rest recharge, lots of cantrips to choose from and ritual magic from all classes is a lot of fun.

[Kane0]

I’m biased towards Warlocks, but given my homebrewing a case could also be made for sorcerers.

[Jerrykhor]

I know the forums is a place for discussion but.... c'mon, this is just lazy.

[Citan]

Just give me your opinion on your favorite caster or the caster you think is the best.
Hi!
There is no "best caster" per se but there are areas in which each shine.
- Versatility: Druid (you don't need to rely on DM to give extra spells like Wizards, you get loads of spells of every different kind among which you can choose each day, plus rituals, and Wild Shaping).
- Simplicity: Bard (semi-specialized in heal/debuff/utility, good enough number of spell known, can poach spells in any list to supplement, otherwise just Bardic Inspiration to manage).
- Variety: Wizard (you rely on DM for extra spells, you're otherwise in-beween spontaneous and prepared, so you have to learn spells but among the largest spell list of all, and barring healing covers fairly well all kind of spells, with the best in AOE and utility. Plus School benefits which give a definitive difference).
- Easiness (to play): Cleric (if you don't want to manage prepared spells, just use the short-list of spells that always work, and go to town with your decent to good AC and Domain short-rest perks).
- Economy efficiency: Sorcerer (possibly hardest or second hardest to play mainly because of choices of spells and metamagic being tight together, but hands-down the best for someone who has no problem having only a few handful of spells).
- Sustainable efficiency: Warlock (having only 2 slots per short rest for half career is hard to swallow, making it the other class which is hard to play, but you are a reliable force that also have, nevertheless, several free spells to complement, plus some of the coolest class abilities).

Here for a very short, borderline oversimplistic view (detailed examination of archetype features would change some things significantly). ;)
My personal favorites: Druid when only caster in a party (fallback Wizard if already several WIS-based classes), Sorcerer & specific Wizards otherwise.
(I tend to only play gishes though when I'm not the only caster, so I usually mix Sorcerer and something else).

[Talamare]

Wizard is the best caster
- They have the best caster features and the best spell list

Cleric and Bard come at second
- With very strong features and amazing spell lists

Sorcerer and Druid are among the worst
- With terrible features that aren't nearly as useful as the other casters, as well as a pretty gutted spell list


Warlock is kinda outside the ranking, since they play very differently

Xanathar did a lot to try to bring up Druid and Sorcerer, especially Druid that was previously the worst.

[jojo]

By what metric?

Lore Bard - Full-Caster. Gets to cherry pick eight of the best spells from all lists in the game. Gets to cast these as Bard Spells using CHA. Can be quite powerful.

Druid - Full-Caster. Gets a lot of mileage/variety out of their spell list. Can eventually cast while wild-shaped allowing outstanding self-healing. Can be quite powerful.

Cleric - Full-Caster. Armor and Weapon Selection may Vary, usually good though. Good saving throw proficiencies. Access to sub-class from level 1. Can be quite powerful.

Sorcerer - Full-Caster. Great saving throw proficiencies but can get MAD quickly. Narrow spell-selection, but large number of spells/day with access to meta-magic. Access to sub-class from level 1. Can be quite powerful.

Wizard - Full-Caster. Flexible. Can learn "all the spells" or next to nothing, flavor with familiar for added options. Can be quite powerful.

It's difficult to make a judgement without having a set of standards, no matter how arbitrary, outlined by which to judge/compare the various classes.

Warlock - Does it even belong on this list? Depends on what metrics we're measuring doesn't it?

[odigity]

There's no such thing as "best caster" for all situations, so here's one designed for a caster duel, just off the top of my head:

Fighter 4 / Bard 16 (Lore)
5 ASIs: +2 Dex, +2 Dex, +2 Cha, +2 Cha, Alert (Dex/Cha = 20)

20 Dex gives you +5 Init
Alert gives you +5 Init
Jack of All Trades (Bard 2) let's you add half prof bonus to non-proficient checks which gives you +3 Init
Peerless Skill (Bard 14) gives you +1d12 Init

You have +13+1d12 Init total, which should hopefully ensure you go first.
You have action surge, so you can get off two action-casting spells in the first round.
If your opponent still gets to act, you can use your reaction to Counterspell, which uses an ability check, which therefore also benefits from Jack of All Trades and Peerless Skill, giving you 1d20+5+3+1d12 to beat a max DC of 19.

Ta da! No more Draco Malfoy.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Best caster is a muscle wizard

https://img.memecdn.com/muscle-wizard-not-mine-but-funny_o_990087.jpg

[Citan]

Wizard is the best caster
- They have the best caster features and the best spell list

Cleric and Bard come at second
- With very strong features and amazing spell lists

Sorcerer and Druid are among the worst
- With terrible features that aren't nearly as useful as the other casters, as well as a pretty gutted spell list


Warlock is kinda outside the ranking, since they play very differently

Xanathar did a lot to try to bring up Druid and Sorcerer, especially Druid that was previously the worst.
Thanks to make my day with that comment, very funny. ;=)

Don't hesitate to actually try and play those classes sometimes, preferably a day in which you feel energized so you can fully express your tactical wits and creativity. Because this is all thoses classes are about. :)

[nickl_2000]

I feel like this thread needs to be re-titled to be "I'm truly curious about your opinion, but am going to start a fight"

As others have said, there is no "best" there is a best for players/dms and a best for situations.


For example, illusionists wizard can be extremely powerful characters. However, if you lack the ability (like I do) to use them effectively they aren't good.


Personal, I like the Cleric spell list. You have choices, you can help your friends, and you don't need to keep as track of as much as you do for all the other caster classes.

[Talamare]

Thanks to make my day with that comment, very funny. ;=)

Don't hesitate to actually try and play those classes sometimes, preferably a day in which you feel energized so you can fully express your tactical wits and creativity. Because this is all thoses classes are about. :)

Oh
I didn't know that Sorcerer had the best spell list.

[Joe the Rat]

Wizards are the best casters, due to the strength of their spell options and casting-support features.
Druids are the best casters, because their class features let them fill a variety of roles in a party.
Bards are the best casters, because they can learn any spell in the game.
13th+ level Thief Rogues are the best casters, because they can use all the magic toys.


But I think y'all can guess what me real answer is...

[Mortis_Elrod]

Wizards are the best casters, due to the strength of their spell options and casting-support features.
Druids are the best casters, because their class features let them fill a variety of roles in a party.
Bards are the best casters, because they can learn any spell in the game.
13th+ level Thief Rogues are the best casters, because they can use all the magic toys.


But I think y'all can guess what me real answer is...

Is it Barbarian? Totem barbarians get free ritual spells.

[Citan]

Oh
I didn't know that Sorcerer had the best spell list.
I'm sorry for you, you seem to have a very serious sight trouble, because I never said such thing. I urge you to plan a medical visit ASAP, as doctors tend to be overloaded so you may still have to wait several weeks.

I hope you get better soon.

[Talamare]

I'm sorry for you, you seem to have a very serious sight trouble, because I never said such thing. I urge you to plan a medical visit ASAP, as doctors tend to be overloaded so you may still have to wait several weeks.

I hope you get better soon.

How childish, then Druid has the best spell casting features (before Xanathar)

What's that, you never said that either?

Oh so Druid and Sorcerer has the worst spell casting feature and the worst spell list.
Making them the worst spell casters in the game?

Oh you're so cute, did you know that?

[Easy_Lee]

I like sorcerers because you can build them to do one or two things exceptionally well, and they require above-average mechanical knowledge to play effectively. Both of those qualities appeal to me.

Sorcerers are not for everyone. No class is. The best caster is the one YOU find the most fun in YOUR campaign with YOUR DM. Don't underestimate the impact that the campaign and DM have on class balance.

[Citan]

How childish, then Druid has the best spell casting features (before Xanathar)

What's that, you never said that either?

Oh so Druid and Sorcerer has the worst spell casting feature and the worst spell list.
Making them the worst spell casters in the game?

Oh you're so cute, did you know that?
You are the one acting like a 5-year child honestly, bringing personal opinions that basically say some classes are ****ty as absolute truth without even a draft of argumentation. ;)

Moreover, the point was not "which one has the best spell list" but "which one is the best caster". Besides the fact that the question is devoid of any real interest, because each caster has its own strenghs making him better than other in some situations, it means that you have to evaluate a caster as a whole.

Even putting that aside, each of those individual points you make...

* Sorcerer has the worst spelllist
* Druid has the (I guess second?) worst spell list.
* Sorcerer has the (I guess second?) worst features.
* Druid has the worst features.

Are, to say the least, extremely debatable.
Also you're cute when trying to shield yourself behind a "pre-Xanathar". AFAIK, OP didn't restrict debate to PHB so all options are on the table.

But you are obviously not here to try a constructive discussion, so I don't feel it worth to spend some time detailing my own arguments to defend the opposite opinion (obviously if other people want it I'll be glad to provide ;)).

[Gardakan]

Cleric 1 (Life) - Sorcerer (Divine Soul from Xanathar's) X

This can go a long distance. It's pretty versatile, it's good at healing as a baseline and you have access to Twinned Spell for Cleric spells.

I plan on doing this class in the game I'm in as a player, in 3 games so far it has been doing fairly well. I planned ahead a bit and reserved enought Sorcerer slots for higher levels spell (Cleric 1 covers all my level 1 needs at long term).

This is a pretty efficient caster, that act as a party face and has the Actor feat at level 1, (so it could be more optimized with a more optimal feat at level 1, but Actor to me is fairly good on this character).

[Gardakan]

There are many types of caster.

The best gish build is still to me the Valor Bard. The magical mysteries gives Bard the ways of smite or Swift Quicker. Hexblade Warlock and Barbaric - Monkish Druid are also quite viable in their spots.

In term of raw power... Sorcerer can go a long way.

In terms of versatility... Wizards sit still on top of the pile.

Cleric have the best healers. Cleric Life is a common level 1 dip that I advocate on any character that wants to heal as a main goal in the party.

Only some classes get access to Counterspell.

[Texugo]

Oh
I didn't know that Sorcerer had the best spell list.


Hey hello to Divine Soul. Pick Sorcerer and Cleric spells and acess to wish.

Firebolt/Eldritch Blast/Toll of Dead/ANY CANTRIP + Twin Sanctuary works really nice.

[Gardakan]

Hey hello to Divine Soul. Pick Sorcerer and Cleric spells and acess to wish.

Firebolt/Eldritch Blast/ANY CANTRIP + Twin Sanctuary works really nice.

Sorcerer have access to twin. Twinning Haste is disgusting with the right group to profit from it. This simple deed is enough to set apart why Sorcerer are Sorcerer (Divine Soul only make things better).

[Texugo]

Sorcerer have access to twin. Twinning Haste is disgusting with the right group to profit from it. This simple deed is enough to set apart why Sorcerer are Sorcerer (Divine Soul only make things better).
Also, It can fly as well. ^^

[Gardakan]

Also, It can fly as well. ^^

Wings are a nice bonus. But the Cleric Spell List is so good. I mean... Silence at level 2 is quite good.

[Texugo]

Wings are a nice bonus. But the Cleric Spell List is so good. I mean... Silence at level 2 is quite good.

Silence + Subtle Spell Metamagic is amazing.

[Easy_Lee]

Silence + Subtle Spell Metamagic is amazing.

To this point, Subtle can make Sorcerers the best social casters. Most spells don't give the caster away, and a Subtle spell requires no words, no movement, nor even a glance in the target's direction by RAW. You only need line of sight to the target, and then you can mess with it.

Combine with Disguise Self for a good time, provided your party is willing to sit back and let you work on occasion.

[Texugo]

To this point, Subtle can make Sorcerers the best social casters. Most spells don't give the caster away, and a Subtle spell requires no words, no movement, nor even a glance in the target's direction by RAW. You only need line of sight to the target, and then you can mess with it.

Combine with Disguise Self for a good time, provided your party is willing to sit back and let you work on occasion.


Sutble Spell Metamagic is the monopoly of "Stealth Mage" (Only sorcerers can do it). It is incomparable for social, direct combat (No Counterspell) and Sneak Mage / Stealth Mage.

For me subtle spell is Tier S.

[Gardakan]

To this point, Subtle can make Sorcerers the best social casters. Most spells don't give the caster away, and a Subtle spell requires no words, no movement, nor even a glance in the target's direction by RAW. You only need line of sight to the target, and then you can mess with it.

Combine with Disguise Self for a good time, provided your party is willing to sit back and let you work on occasion.

A subtle Suggestion can lead to a pretty fast way through a social situation without much backfire. The person is aware it has been charmed if it succeeds the saving throw... by who ?

Subtle is great. It's another take on the sorcerer (the Face one who cares about her party's needs with buffs and debuffs and healing).

Sorcerer have a lot of potential as dedicated healer - supports - face when you go the Divine Soul route.

[Texugo]

A subtle Suggestion can lead to a pretty fast way through a social situation without much backfire. The person is aware it has been charmed if it succeeds the saving throw... by who ?

Subtle is great. It's another take on the sorcerer (the Face one who cares about her party's needs with buffs and debuffs and healing).

Sorcerer have a lot of potential as dedicated healer - supports - face when you go the Divine Soul route.

Planar Ally + Heightein Planar Binding. Divine Soul Sorcerer is the best summoner.
Summon Genies, Nightmare, Coault,Planetar others and laugh.

Only Clerics and Divine Soul can do it, but The Divine Soul has doubled chances to succeful with Heightein Spell.

[MrStabby]

For me I rate sorcerer highest from about level 6 up till about level 12. At high levels the Wizard spell list just ends up being more powerful and most of the game changing effects happen outside of combat or against enemies with enough special abilities to shrug of some of the sorcerer's metamagic benefits. At low levels the shortage of sorcery points is an issue. At this level bard is also pretty awesome - level 6 ability is a big step up in power for both.

I would rate cleric at the level 1 and 4 and 5 level to be the best. Healing is important when it is easy to drop dead. Low level cleric spells are some of the best. You are keeping getting bonus domain spells at this level. Spells prepared is huge, especially when they are more limited, as they are at the level. Access to more armour is good - although at the low levels plate is probably out of reach.

At level 2 and 3 warlocks are awesome. At this level damage is king and warlocks can just keep churning it out all day. Pact features add a bit of extra something. Honourable mention to the early moon druid peak as well - although for me the extra range on eldritch blast is pretty significant.

At level 13-19 wizard takes it. The total versatility they can pick up from high level rituals, campaign changing spells is magnificent. Sorcerer can compete for a long time though - more metamagic, more sorcery points, divine soul spells and eventually wish + metamagic.

At level 20... moon druid. Even then it is close. High levels Wizards are that good.

[Citan]

Sutble Spell Metamagic is the monopoly of "Stealth Mage" (Only sorcerers can do it). It is incomparable for social, direct combat (No Counterspell) and Sneak Mage / Stealth Mage.

For me subtle spell is Tier S.
This should mean that Druid is the best caster ever, right? Specifically, Moon Druid, not so much because of improved shapes than because you can wild shape as a bonus action...

Beyond the fact that their spell list is actually great (*poke* Talamare ;))...

Because while lacking the best spells of several categories, they do still get an impressive array of spells, from the most generalist to the most "utility niche", including...
- Some of the most useful environment control spells (Plant Growth, Fog Cloud, Moonbeam, Dust Devil, Wind Wall, Wall of Water, Sleet Storm etc up to EarthQuake and the like)...
- Some of the most useful buff spells (Enhance Ability, Darkvision, Longstrider, Flame Arrows, Freedom of Movement, Polymorph, plus self like Warding Wind for gishes but that's another topic)
- Many useful healing/purification spells (Healing Words, the now op Healing Spirit, Lesser Restoration, Greater Restoration, Heal, Heroes's Feast, Primordial Ward).
- A great variety of exploration/investigation utility spells (Locate spells, Identify, Goodberry, Purify, Dispel Magic, Find the Path, Scrying),
- Some spells, some of them rituals, that can completely change entry or fighting tactics or warring strategy provided the situation fits (Pass Without Trace, Water Walking / Water Breathing, Transport by Plants, Wind Walk, Conjure -Air- Elementals)
- A decent enough array of AOE, which have generally much weaker damage than direct counterparts from Sorcerer/Wizards but compensate with equal or greater range and added effects (Flaming Sphere -great for a time-, Earth Tremor -small radius so friendly, puts prone, cheap-, Erupting Earth (damage and difficult terrain), Call Lightning (good damage per concentration, large range), Tidal Wave (particular shape that seems to be adaptable), Sunbeam (great against darkness), Ice Storm (unusual shape good for low flyers and avoiding friendlies), Sleet Storm (great range, obscures area, makes people fall prone, difficult terrain) etc...
- A pretty good array of AOE or single-target (with some upcastable) debuffs: Thorns Whip (yeah, being moved can be a pretty strong, although incidental, debuff ;)) Heat Metal, Hold Person, Polymorph, Dominate, Grasping Vine (same as Thorns Whip, party dependent so meh or great YMMV), Elemental Bane (once per turn, but every turn, plus lose resistance... ;)), Sympathy, Wall of Thorns (like Plant Growth and Spike Growth fused together)...
- And the best creature conjuration spells until very high level (in PHB, IIRC there have been several conjuration spells added in other books but I don't know them).

AND... You can design a different set-up among ALL the spells, EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

You wanted to try a spell but it has been pretty underwhelming in your experience... You're a Bard/Sorcerer/Warlock? Tough luck, you have to copie with it until next level (which can end as pretty long past level 8-9). You're a Wizard? Well, you can prepare another spell another day, but that's a few pages of your book you'll probably never read again. You can just hope that your DM will throw a few bones (read: spells as loot/trade) at you soon.

You find that particular spell potentially great, but you are afraid you'll never see a chance to really use it (like Water Breathing)? For every class except Cleric and Druid, you have a tough choice to make because it's taking one precious "spell known" slot for a while, confer above.

Druid is the only one that can really use all the spells, even the most niche, because you don't care about reducing your "always useful" spell list by one-two "slots" if it's only for a day.

And if you really like those spells, Land Druid brings not only extra slots, but also some potentially "external" spells from other lists that are very useful (Haste, Slow, Cone of Cold, Silence, Web, Dream, Stinking Cloud, Greater Invisibility)

But in addition to all that greatness and perks from Circles, Druid can Wild Shape and still maintain concentration on spells cast beforehand.
Opening a great array of hit&run tactics or ambushes, especially if Moon (bonus action = much less chance to need another turn to complete the tactic).

Things get absolutely gorgeous when (or rather, IF to be honest) you managed to bring Druid to up to 18th level, since you basically get permanent Subtle.

So you could now stroll unknown to all as a regular rat/eagle/cat and wreak havoc while everyone is just wondering the cause of the catastrophe falling upon them... Bad luck? Angry deity? Enemy attack by a very distant force?

With that said, by that time Wizards/Bards/Sorcerers got Wish so it's nothing over the top. ;)
At least, until you get that "as often as you will Wild Shape" capstone, making Moon Druid some of the top hardest creatures to kill.

That's also why if you don't have the patience (or the hope) to get such high levels, but still want to play with this kind of tactics, just three levels of Sorcerers taken somewhere in the middle of your career (or rather, one starting level of Draconic/Shadow/Divine Soul Sorcerer early for Shield, Mage Armor and Constitution proficiency, then the two others once you got the spells you really want to use regularly) will make your day: Subtle.will give you the same benefit (at the potential price of burning some slots to refill SP), and the other Metamagic of choice will be Extend or Careful depending on the kind of spells you use the most (even Empowered could be worth it if you regularly use instant AOE).

The only true drawbacks of Druid are its relative frailness (better HP and armor than Wizard, but no Shield/Blur/Mirror Image etc so ime more or less the same until level 4-5) and the potentially big strings attached in roleplay, depending on how DM sees the class and setting.


At level 20... moon druid. Even then it is close. High levels Wizards are that good.
True that. So true that i'd actually argue that Wizards take the top: between interchangeable free 1st and 2nd level spells, choice of two short-rest 3rd level spells, Wish and Simulacrum, and enough high level spells to (unless you're really stupid or DM is really antagonistic) get multiple ways of learning other spells, spying enemy factions and preparing lots of contingencies or countermeasures...
In any properly evolving world, I really see only Wizards dominating but...
Avoiding too much hurt on environment to not pull lvl 20 Druids against them: they would *probably* win a face-off per abovementioned reasons, but would be too costly for benefit involved imo. XD :)
Same with Clerics (you usually don't want to seriously annoy deities, even "good" ones) and Warlocks (same, except usually worse since patrons tend to be entities of gigantic power but rather on the malevolent face of the coin). ^^

[Temperjoke]

The only true drawbacks of Druid are its relative frailness (better HP and armor than Wizard, but no Shield/Blur/Mirror Image etc so ime more or less the same until level 4-5) and the potentially big strings attached in roleplay, depending on how DM sees the class and setting.

Desert Land druids get Blur, Coast Land Druids get Mirror Image

[Citan]

Desert Land druids get Blur, Coast Land Druids get Mirror Image
True that. And Moon Druid get a few nice THP cushions.
But I was speaking "in general", putting archetype benefits aside (because in that case even Shepherd Druid would have things to say ;)).

[Texugo]

Snif


Well, Druid are good, but he has a worse list of the game.
No Dimension door, Teleport, Wish, Counterspell, Invisibility, See Invisibility, true sight, Wish. It is vulnerable against long range as 1200' or 600' Eldritch Blast . Can not see invisible. Illusion like Permanent Major Image is devasting against them. Invisibility is an unfair fight.

Also do not worry about Sorcery Points (Coffeelocks are there) and a Sorcerer with Distant Spell Metamagic (Another Tier S) can cause serious problems. Per Example, a flying combat: The Sorcerer casts Distant Tidal Wave (240 feet) x Druid's Tidal Wave (120 feet), obviously the druids is prone.
With wish and Simulacrum, the sorcerer has double action. Heightein Spell is incredibly dangerous against a target that has no counterspell. So, It's 2 Distant Tidal Wave at 240 feet x 1 Tidal Wave at 120 feet.
Wish for Permanent Programmed Illusion (Until Dispelled), Wish for Contingency, Wish for Versatility.

For example, a Divine Soul with Planar Ally + Heightein Planar Binding can summon powerful allies to fight at your side.
Coualt, Arcanoloths, Ultroloths, Ki-rin, Empyrean, Planetars, Genies, Nightmares

Well, Druids are cool, but, their list is weak compared to Divine Soul. Right?

[sambojin]

It's us, isn't it? We're the best casters, if only we'd realize it....

Now pull my magic finger, you wonderful person, you.

[Kane0]

I'm actually sort of surprised that there hasn't been a new 'Caster battle royale' thread since the release of Xanathar's.

I think the last time Druid in Earth elemental form was pretty much untouchable?

[Citan]

Well, Druid are good, but he has a worse list of the game.
No Dimension door, Teleport, Wish, Counterspell, Invisibility, See Invisibility, true sight, Wish. It is vulnerable against long range as 1200' or 600' Eldritch Blast . Can not see invisible. Illusion like Permanent Major Image is devasting against them. Invisibility is an unfair fight.

Also do not worry about Sorcery Points (Coffeelocks are there) and a Sorcerer with Distant Spell Metamagic (Another Tier S) can cause serious problems. Per Example, a flying combat: The Sorcerer casts Distant Tidal Wave (240 feet) x Druid Tidal Wave (120 feet), obviously the druids is prone.
With wish and Simulacrum, the sorcerer has double action. Heightein Spell is incredibly dangerous against a target that has no counterspell. So, It's 2 Distant Tidal Wave at 240 feet x 1 Tidal Wave at 120 feet.

For example, a Divine Soul with Planar Ally + Heightein Planar Binding can summon powerful allies to fight at your side.
Coualt, Arcanoloths, Ultroloths, Ki-rin, Empyrean, Planetars, Genies, Nightmares

Well, Druids are cool, but, their list is weak compared to Divine Soul. Right?
Hmm... I'd tend to agree with you because I'm among the few ones around here that really don't undersell Sorcerers...
But I also have to say I rarely got the chance to really play Druid's best spells because I'm usually the one DMing... XD

Like Transport with Plants: seems like a meh spell at first glance, but I could really see, in an long-term "bring that powerful overlord" down campaign, a subplot made by party to make a (Large for any reasonable DM, but the writing allows you, by RAW, to exit through any plant, although you have to enter through at least a large one -and you usually want an escape plan ^^) plant be brought into the chamber of the tyran. Then you can bypass any and every protection barring the ones in the room itself: because the plant is a totally regular plant, there is no Detect Magic until you actually cast the spell. There are obviously high-level countermeasures available, but still...

Wind Walk is also much better than Fly and Dimension Door, even it it has some risks involved: Wizard has Teleportation of course but that requires some set up beforehand.

As for your very long-range tactics...
First, mostly any class is really susceptible to those attacks at first glance, Sorcerer themselves included: only Wizard could maybe quickly react through some Contigency or Glyph of Warding to cast one of the countermeasures you speak of (or other class getting same spell).
Second, it requires YOU as the big blaster to actually accurately see your target at that distance: 300 feet is fair, 600 feet is doable, 1200 feet is very hard.

Especially if Druid decides to change into a Tiny creature: even if a (arguably generous even if it's possibly RAW) DM decided to consider that you still "see" the creature because it's actually in your vision field (aka you "see" as in getting the image somewhere on the retina, but not see as in actively processing part of what your eye gets in your brain)...
It would just take a few feet of movement of said Druid to go behind any natural objet that would provide him full cover, unless he directly wild shapes into a burrowing animal. Good luck hitting him now, Spell Sniper or what, you will be useless. As would be most AOE incidentally unless your DM is really generous (who would defend that a Fireball, because a sphere, would actually burn down deep in the ground up to the full extent of his radius? Not me).
While it's lesser than Greater Invisibility until very high level (because that one does let you act normally, notably casting non-concentration spells), if you just consider the defensive aspect it's Invisibility on steroids: because you are Wild Shaped (which is not a "magic effect" per se), even Dispel Magic nor Counterspell would work. Because it's a non-concentration feature, you can use it after casting any concentration spell you'd like (like, *totally randomly*, one environment spell or conjuration spell). Because it scales with Druid level, you can stay several hours (or indefinitely as capstone).

Another tactic of Druid (honestly much simpler) would be to just cast a Fog Cloud or any of those many lowish-level spells that obscure areas between you and him, preferably close to him, to let him several rounds thinking about the best course of action.
Because you started from that far from him, even with Dimension Door, it will still require two turns to close in: your tactic is actually turning against you...

Third, you need to be the one starting the fight.
If Druid is humanoid form, getting him on surprise should not be too difficult, although you still need to bypass his passive Perception check, which ought to be decent (or high if he took Observant).
If for whatever reason surprise is not an option (confer notably a bit below), then comes Initiative rolls: both have no particular reason to boost DEX, but you have one less ASI: it will boil down on sheer luck, and whether any of you took Alert, or Lucky, or both. And Druid did not have Foresight cast before for any reason. ;)
Nor did he ritual cast Commune With Nature regularly, otherwise your powerful celestial allies will give you out (because he will immediately notice they are not locals).
Nor did he cast Locate Creature (this one is very far-stretched though, unless he also used Scrying before hand and already knew you were coming to him).

Fourth, you'd need quite a bit of luck to down him on the first round.
In fact, you have little chance of killing him on first turn with reasonable builds (so you and Simulacrum taking Quickened Agonizing Eldricht Blast + Agonizing Eldricht Blast for a grand total of potentially up to 2*4*2=16(1d10+5) = average 16*(10) + 8 (yeah, I'm lazy) = 168 damage, provided all hit.
Druid normally built for high-level (so maxed WIS, 16 CON, 14 DEX, medium armor) would have an average of 8+3+19*(5+3)= 20*8+3 = 163.

AC would be at least 16 (Hide + shield), provided Druid neither has a preventive Stoneskin activated when he's in humanoid form (Land has extra slots so it's doable), nor got hands on magical armor and shield that would easily boost his AC to 18-20, nor decided to get a Magic Initiate: Shield because he already learned in the past that some nasty things could come from afar.

So with your Sorcerer, having 5+6=11 to hit, chances to land each ray would be respectively of 80%, 60-70%, 45% (18 AC by Stoneskin + Shield for example), 35% (worst case: AC 20 through magic armor and shield, plus Shield spell activated on first hit).
So respectively 13 (rounding up), 10-11, 7, and 5-6 hits on all your attacks.
With a bit of luck, you have a decent chance of downing the Druid in the best case. For next in line, you'd need several criticals. In all other cases, you failed to down him, and now he has time to prepare either escape or counter-attack depending on context.

The only other big thing I can think of is Meteor Swarm, but even if both of you cast it, it would amount to 2*20d6 (fire) and 2*20d6 (bludgeoning) damage. Provided Druid did not cast Stoneskin as a permanent countermeasure (arguably very low chance: this is a 4th level spell, so much higher cost), he still has Absorb Elements: immediately halving fire damage of both parts, so total of 20d6 on a failed save. So worst case guy will suffer 60d6 damage for a nasty average of 360 damage: yeah, here you can be sure you got him good that time provided cases hereunder are not applicable.

And this is IF Druid didn't cast Foresight (advantage on saves, imposes disadvantage on attacks) when starting his day: high chance if he didn't know he is targeted by a powerful caster or he is not paranoïac like a Wizard ^^, very low chance otherwise. Same with Protection from Energy. ;)

And this is IF Druid was humanoid in the first place: provided you seem to speak about level 18-20 builds here, I don't see any reason for Druid (at least Moon) to not be in animal shape permanently. Which means, on your part, using spells like Scrying (which target Wis, Druid being evidently good at those saves) to try and locate him. Then trying to blow through his THP (which is just NOT doable on a Moon Druid, who has access to Elemental Forms or can just Wild Shape into a 18 AC, 80+ HP as a bonus action as often as he wishes).

Incidentally, there is no reason either why such a high level Druid would not have basically every living animal being in his general trending area aware of his existence and either respectuous or fearful of him, so feeding him information one way or another. So you would also need to approach covertly if you want to take a chance at your surprise attack.

And apart from having probably several creatures ready to help/defend him without order (although I admit that is 100% DM dependent ;)), Druid can himself invoke powerful Elementals or Feys to help him. I have no useful opinion on comparative worth of high level cast of those compared to Planar Ally (especially since I don't know well the creatures you speak of) but I'd guess the superior action economy of a group (especially when some creatures *cough* Pixies *cough* can cast spells) could counterbalance the superior stats and ability of a single creature (or two, *maybe* three). Technically there are no limits apparently to the number of creatures you could bind with the Planar combo, but I'd expect any DM to restrict one way or another (especially since you actually "invite" creatures to your plane to bind them forcefully for a great amount of time, to send them on a very dangerous mission: the godly entity you are calling to won't appreciate the fact you are using its creatures as scapegoats).
All these creatures would also need tremorsense or great tracking abilities to still find the Druid escaping underground... If he didn't directly use Transport by Plants to quickly escape to a safe haven from where he can ramp up his personal protection against your next attempt.

Sooo... I really don't think it would be THAT easy in a properly made world, for a Sorcerer/Warlock to kill Druid: it would be certainly be doable but with a pretty great amount of preparation and without being totally devoid of risks. ;)

[Mortis_Elrod]

Thank you citan. Good to see that the nature caster is still on top when it comes to survival. Would be silly otherwise, because as we all know Nature always finds a way.

[Specter]

Personal opinions ahead:

Personal favorite: Bard
Most versatile: Bard. They won't be the best at anything, but there's no category they can't cover.
Best utility-wise: Wizard/Druid. These are the guys you want outside of combat.
Best damage-wise: Sorcerer. Not only in terms of direct damage, but also implied damage given to teammates.

Clerics rely too much on domain and role to be classified.

@Citan - just give it up, man, some people just crave the conflict and attention.

[Citan]

Thank you citan. Good to see that the nature caster is still on top when it comes to survival. Would be silly otherwise, because as we all know Nature always finds a way.
Nice reference to one of the greatest movies of its generation (well, at the very least, one of my top ten, that ought to amount to something -totally assumes own megalomania :smallbiggrin:).

Honestly, I'd really really like some day to, not even necessarily play, but just watch stories unveil in a world carefully crafted by a DM over several years, with players and NPC alike, across all classes, having finally attained ultimate power...
That would be probably incredible to watch (and such people that mastered world-building up to that point should really sell their work to roleplaying game makers or movies publishers ;)).


Personal opinions ahead:

Personal favorite: Bard
Most versatile: Bard. They won't be the best at anything, but there's no category they can't cover.
Best utility-wise: Wizard/Druid. These are the guys you want outside of combat.
Best damage-wise: Sorcerer. Not only in terms of direct damage, but also implied damage given to teammates.

Clerics rely too much on domain and role to be classified.

@Citan - just give it up, man, some people just crave the conflict and attention.
True, but I didn't mind because I thought that his question was still very much worthwhile in essence, and the resulting exercise in theorycraft interesting*. Plus it may breed some feedback from other people that actually played highest level classes for a decent time, which I always like (especially on use of some Druid/Cleric/Wizard spells, that I just have no idea how to use properly). ;)
It did take a good chunk of my night though. ^^

If at least some people read it and found it interesting, I'll say it was worth the effort. :smallwink:

* It made me at least realize how Meteor Swarm could be deadly against most casters except Wizards (at least I guess so because of Contigency, Clone and that half dozen other spells that seem great but I never really used myself), Moond Druid (as explained) and particular builds using Extended Foresight + Extended Aid or Action Surge, even with Absorb Elements or more generally fire resistance. Especially if you can chain two of them thanks to a recent Simulacrum. ^^

[Beelzebubba]

Can not see invisible. Invisibility is an unfair fight.

Faerie Fire?

[sithlordnergal]

Well, Druid are good, but he has a worse list of the game.
No Dimension door, Teleport, Wish, Counterspell, Invisibility, See Invisibility, true sight, Wish. It is vulnerable against long range as 1200' or 600' Eldritch Blast . Can not see invisible. Illusion like Permanent Major Image is devasting against them. Invisibility is an unfair fight.

Well, Druids are cool, but, their list is weak compared to Divine Soul. Right?

Well, first off the 1200 and 600 foot range is meaningless. You may be able to snipe people from that distance...but there's no realistic way to make use of that sort of range. As for the Druid spell list, I'm going to be honest. I play a Moon Druid in a party with a Warlock, a Soradin, a Wizard, and a Barbarian. And let me tell you:

- My Moon Druid tanks better then the barbarian. Barbarian has gone down multiple times and actually died when I missed one game. I have been knocked out once because of a BS crit where the DM nearly rolled max damage on the first turn. Seriously, first turn, DM managed to roll a high on initiative for once and went before me. And what did he do? He crit the level 6 Druid with a max HP of 51 for 6d10 and rolled a 58. Can't even get mad, everyone was shocked, including him. XD

-My moon druid often does better with their spells then the warlock or Wizard. I think part of it is that the Wizard isn't that good at optimizing a Wizard...the warlock did well before he died when I missed a second session. While the Druid's spell list may not have as much firepower as a Wizard, they make up for it with amazing utility and battlefield control. You've never seen anything until you see a Hydra get ripped to pieces because you're playing Tomb of Annihilation and got to summon eight 1/4 cr raptors that rip the hydra apart for 88 damage. And that was just with a single 3rd level Summon Beast spell.

- Wanna make sure no-one can ever walk to you? Plant Growth and Spike Growth. They'll have to kill themselves walking to you, or used ranged attacks.

- Need healing? Druid's got ya covered. I may not be a Life Cleric, but my spells are still perfectly fine.

I'd suggest playing the Druid class and looking a bit closer at the spells. I feel like the Druid spell list is very similar to Illusion spells. They're only good if you're creative with their use, and if you have someone who knows how to use them then they can be insane.


That said, after singing the praises of the Druid, they are not my favorite caster class. My three favorites would have to be, in this order:

- Wild Magic Sorcerer. If you have a DM who lets you play with the Wild Magic it's a blast...literally =p

- Divination Wizard. Who doesn't love forcing everything to fail their save against Tasha's Hideous Laughter? I'll make sure you die with a smile. <3

-Lord Bard, it's a spell caster, buffer, debuffer, and Rogue all in one =p

[Kane0]

Divine Sorcerer 17 / Divine Warlock 3
Cast ALL of the things!

[Mortis_Elrod]

Best Caster? maybe druid maybe bard maybe wizard or even coffeelock.

But best Magic User? My friends have you forgotten about the Mystic so easily?

Level 20 capstone might just beat a druid in survivability.

You wanna talk about Versatile look no further.

Maybe the Mystic is lacking in the Game Changing abilities. maybe.... You could always summon shadows and consume the world.

Best thing here is you can just say What Counterspell?

I submit the Mystic for nomination. Who will second me?

[Strangways]

Just give me your opinion on your favorite caster or the caster you think is the best.

Favorite = Wizard, the Swiss Army Knife of casters.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Wizard has spell slots. Sorcerer has metamagic. I think there pretty even as for bard, warlock, druid, and cleric, I think they too are pretty good in different situations. Also Hexblade is pretty good.

[Zeb]

Gnome illusionist

Every other caster you have seen or even thought you played was just you failing your int(investigation) check.

It's ok you just learn to live in the illusion.

[odigity]

Anya Colloff (www.imdb.com/name/nm0172837/)

[odigity]

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-4-in-Swivel-with-Brake-Non-Marking-Rubber-Caster-4034445EB/203672593

[Gardakan]

The best caster... do you mean the ability of the Sorcerer to Twin a ridiculous amount of limited spells.

Do you mean the versatillity of the Mage. Do you mean the raw power that Warlock can harness. Do you intend to go the Druid route with the tanking capabilities. Would you prefer a supportive Bard who can be a clutch member of teamfights with Lore College and access to a full spelllist (Bards are quite powerful).

You can even go into Cleric if you want to bring back your friends from the grave.

Best caster in term of raw power are Mage with Arcane Recovery, Sorcerer with Sorcery Points and Druid (Land) with their font of recovery that function like Wizards (from memory). These three casters have the maximum amount of slots virtually (Coffeelock is a thing, but it's rather hard to evaluate as a pure caster... he can have lot of spells, but he doesn't have much in versatility if we compare to the Mage or the Druid (or the metamagic spikes from Sorcerer).

I believe the system has some good balance after all... there is not a singular archetype that I found disgusting as to never allow it as a DM.

Another question is access to key spells (like Teleportation or Counterspell).

You're a strong caster the day you have Counterspell in your inventory... because you can nullify enemy and make a proper use of your reaction.

You're also a valuable member of the party when you heal. You're as strong as those you are playing with.

[Citan]

Best Caster? maybe druid maybe bard maybe wizard or even coffeelock.

But best Magic User? My friends have you forgotten about the Mystic so easily?

Level 20 capstone might just beat a druid in survivability.

You wanna talk about Versatile look no further.

Maybe the Mystic is lacking in the Game Changing abilities. maybe.... You could always summon shadows and consume the world.

Best thing here is you can just say What Counterspell?

I submit the Mystic for nomination. Who will second me?
I think nobody talked about the Mystic because everyone silently agrees that it's by far (barring maybe the I-dont-remember-name- Wizard archetype that also got all Cleric spells) the most ridiculously overpowered class so far (like, getting some empowered Enlarge effect for a ridiculous cost, before even casters getting the spell). Which is pretty normal since they apparently concentrate all "new" features at low level to ease testing for some reason.

[Gardakan]

I think nobody talked about the Mystic because everyone silently agrees that it's by far (barring maybe the I-dont-remember-name- Wizard archetype that also got all Cleric spells) the most ridiculously overpowered class so far (like, getting some empowered Enlarge effect for a ridiculous cost, before even casters getting the spell). Which is pretty normal since they apparently concentrate all "new" features at low level to ease testing for some reason.

As far as what has been released and is official material, the Divine Soul is the only fullcaster that can pick in both lists. And you have to pick carefully... not much spells to work with (the Cleric-1 dip helps... and I'm a big fan of this archetype being one of the best casters due to the innate ability to pick spells from a large spell list... you have to work it out quite much though).

[Mortis_Elrod]

As far as what has been released and is official material, the Divine Soul is the only fullcaster that can pick in both lists. And you have to pick carefully... not much spells to work with (the Cleric-1 dip helps... and I'm a big fan of this archetype being one of the best casters due to the innate ability to pick spells from a large spell list... you have to work it out quite much though).

Think he was talking about the Theurge wizard. I agree FS Sorcerer is pretty good.


And to be fair Citan it’s probably that way because high levels don’t see much play.

Though on the other hand that might be a design flaw, could have made it easier to get higher levels in the first place, but they might not have had the foresight they needed to make that decision....

Well in the interest of fair play I retract the Mystic. In its stead I will vote for Eldritch Knight, for being the only caster to get 4 attacks per turn and the other goodies.

[Citan]

Think he was talking about the Theurge wizard. I agree FS Sorcerer is pretty good.


And to be fair Citan it’s probably that way because high levels don’t see much play.

Though on the other hand that might be a design flaw, could have made it easier to get higher levels in the first place, but they might not have had the foresight they needed to make that decision....

Well in the interest of fair play I retract the Mystic. In its stead I will vote for Eldritch Knight, for being the only caster to get 4 attacks per turn and the other goodies.
I was indeed speaking of "relative overpowerness by design" of UA content, and indeed trying to get "Theurge" in my failing memory. Thanks for pointing that out. ;=)

But you know, I made times ago the same conclusion as you regarding the way UA is made, "put features at low level because high level play is rare", but it doesn't make any more sense to me: if you, designer, wants to play test something, just start the campaign at the level you want your character to be. ;=)

I mean, the only thing to "test" is really the mechanical power of a feature. You don't care about actually playing a campaign, unless a few cases where the feature is actually about downtime advancement or long-term benefits. So basically you can just take pre-made encounters and resolve them.

So my only explanation is that they put obviously powerful features much lower than you'd expect to see "how low" they can put it before it breaks all the balance relative to monsters of corresponding CR (hope I'm clear ^^)...
I'll double on that, in reflection, through the fact that many of the Mystic features could be summarized as "cast X spell but on self only, possibly without concentration". So they are searching how you can "dumb down (or up)" the level at which you acquire that feature compared to corresponding spell: self means significant "potential loss", but non-concentration means "big potential gain" (because you can stack it with other effects)...
And for that, using low-level encounters is certainly easier (less tactical options on both sides, less HP so quicker fights, etc).

[Mortis_Elrod]

I was indeed speaking of "relative overpowerness by design" of UA content.

But you know, I made the same conclusion as you "put features at low level because high level play is rare", but it doesn't make any more sense to me: if you, designer, wants to play test something, just start the campaign at the level you want your character to be. ;=)

I mean, the only thing to "test" is really the mechanical power of a feature.
So my only explanation is that they put obviously powerful features much lower than you'd expect to see "how low" they can put it before it breaks all the balance relative to monsters of corresponding CR (hope I'm clear ^^)...

Yeah you’re clear. It’s like they want to know at what point 5e breaks. Or viewed differently they want to know how op they can sell something for.

Makes me think of why we call it “balance” . What are balancing? Mechanics with mechanics? Power creep and Consumer opinion ? Potential Profit and Design principles ?

[Tboy1492]

I'm still familiarizing mys of with 5e but I've always had a soft spot for Druids and wizards personally. Want heals? Druid. Everything but heals? Wizard. But I'm big on roll play not just mehanics so the mindset of both interest me as well. It boils down to preference, mindset of yourself and the character.

If we're talking spell dueling or raw magic might I'd put my money on the wizard or sorcerer more often than not. Fighting and casting in the Frey of combat? Sorcerer or cleric. (Maybe Druid). Heals? Druid or cleric, bard would be alright. Overal utility? Likely bard.
So it depends on your play style and preference, what gap you want to fill. There really isn't an answer to "best" overall, all have a place and best use.

[Tboy1492]

Favorite = Wizard, the Swiss Army Knife of casters.

I'm going to start using this line :-)

[vexedart]

Favorite is the wizard, in my opinion they have the most options(spells) at most tiers of play. Plus collecting new spells is fun.

The best caster though, would depend on tiers of play. This is my opinion of course, liable to change.
Tier 1(1-4) cleric, druid
Tier 2(5-10) sorcerer, wizard(glyph of warding for ultimate house defense), cleric, bard(lore), warlock
Tier 3(11-16) wizard(their list really outshines others at about here but requires a lot of gold, demiplane, clone, force cage, simulacrum, contingency)
Tier 4(17-20) anyone with wish (so many options, makes any caster a Swiss Army knife), so wizard, bard, arcana cleric, sorcerer

And at level 20 specifically, Moon druid, arcana cleric(100% god summon chance and wish), wish casters still great too, so wizard, bard, sorcerer17/warlock3 is great at 20 as well.

[Gardakan]

I'm still familiarizing mys of with 5e but I've always had a soft spot for Druids and wizards personally. Want heals? Druid. Everything but heals? Wizard. But I'm big on roll play not just mehanics so the mindset of both interest me as well. It boils down to preference, mindset of yourself and the character.

If we're talking spell dueling or raw magic might I'd put my money on the wizard or sorcerer more often than not. Fighting and casting in the Frey of combat? Sorcerer or cleric. (Maybe Druid). Heals? Druid or cleric, bard would be alright. Overal utility? Likely bard.
So it depends on your play style and preference, what gap you want to fill. There really isn't an answer to "best" overall, all have a place and best use.

Divine Soul from Xanathar's turn Sorcerer into buffing machines.

1 level dip into Life Cleric and you're suddenly free to choose your spells for higher slots and leave the bunch of level 1 to Cleric (which gets Bless, Healing Word, Cure Wounds and Sanctuary with only 13 Wisdom).

Then build the sorcerer you want. You can pick Revivify at 3. With Counterspell.

[Talamare]

You are the one acting like a 5-year child honestly, bringing personal opinions that basically say some classes are ****ty as absolute truth without even a draft of argumentation. ;)

Moreover, the point was not "which one has the best spell list" but "which one is the best caster". Besides the fact that the question is devoid of any real interest, because each caster has its own strenghs making him better than other in some situations, it means that you have to evaluate a caster as a whole.

Even putting that aside, each of those individual points you make...

* Sorcerer has the worst spelllist
* Druid has the (I guess second?) worst spell list.
* Sorcerer has the (I guess second?) worst features.
* Druid has the worst features.

Are, to say the least, extremely debatable.
Also you're cute when trying to shield yourself behind a "pre-Xanathar". AFAIK, OP didn't restrict debate to PHB so all options are on the table.

But you are obviously not here to try a constructive discussion, so I don't feel it worth to spend some time detailing my own arguments to defend the opposite opinion (obviously if other people want it I'll be glad to provide ;)).
I usually go by the rule that the first to insult is the childish one.

Personal opinion is a little inherently in most arguments, but it's not like my opinion isn't supported.

You're right that the question is Which class is the Best Caster, however we need to establish parameters to what makes the Best Caster, the Best.

Now to be the Best Caster one would assume you have...
-Strong Spell List
This is easily one of the most important factors. Since this is what determines the effect of our Caster will have. Having a large selection of spells is crucial, but so is having the arguably best spells readily available. We need both Diversity and Power.

-Strong Caster Features
It's often not enough to just having access to good spells, since a lot of classes may also have access to those spells. It's also crucial to be able to manipulate those Spells or to provide additional support thru your Caster Features.

If you have additional criteria that you feel is crucial to being a strong Caster, feel free to add it.

Now each of these core necessities have different sub importance.
Spell List might be weighed by Damage, Control, Support, etc.

Needless to say its obviously a pretty complex system.

However in the end...
Wizard has the best Spell List and among the Best Spell Casting features.
Cleric and Bard have great Spell List. Cleric has better Spell Casting Features, while Bard has unique mechanics that allows them make their Spell List uniquely the best in a limited fashion.
Sorcerer Meta Magic is probably the 2nd or 3rd Best Spell Casting features with Metamagic, but the more you examine Metamagics the more you realize that a lot of them are fairly limited in scope. You're often limited to only a few amazing options, and a huge amount of mediocre and poor ones. Sorcerer is then further limited by a pretty Terrible spell list.
Druid is limited by having nearly zero Spell Casting features, and a pretty terrible Spell List that inherently misses on a huge amount of crucial and powerful Spells. They get a few useful unique spells, but lose too much to make them worth it.

So
Best Spell List
Wizard ~ Bard
Cleric
Sorcerer
Druid

Best Spell Casting Features
Sorcerer
Wizard
Cleric
Bard
Druid

Oh, and I'm not hiding behind "Pre-Xanthar". I'm acknowledging Xanathar changes a lot of the previous power levels. Which means we need more time to fully understand what Xanathar brings. Trying to claim rankings before it has been properly analyzed is just Childish.

Finally, if you didn't feel it was worth it to respond, then you shouldn't have responded... Twice

Edit - Disclaimer which should go unsaid but I'm starting to doubt it... Being the Best and the Worst is something you need to consider what it means. Being the Best Caster and being the Worst Caster doesn't mean that the Best is overpowered, and the Worst is unplayable. All 5 options are incredibly powerful and can be game changing in any game they are in. All 5 options actively switch places on specific situations that might make one better than the other despite their general ranking. However, in the end you need to stop and consider who is the most useful for the majority of situations. Kinda of like average as many different situations you can think of. In the end the one of the most variety of tools and assets will generally rise to become the Best Overall. That is what we have here.


I think nobody talked about the Mystic because everyone silently agrees that it's by far the most ridiculously overpowered class so far
Agreed

[Talamare]

You're a Wizard? Well, you can prepare another spell another day, but that's a few pages of your book you'll probably never read again. You can just hope that your DM will throw a few bones (read: spells as loot/trade) at you soon.

You find that particular spell potentially great, but you are afraid you'll never see a chance to really use it (like Water Breathing)? For every class except Cleric and Druid, you have a tough choice to make because it's taking one precious "spell known" slot for a while, confer above.

Druid is the only one that can really use all the spells, even the most niche, because you don't care about reducing your "always useful" spell list by one-two "slots" if it's only for a day.


What exactly are you talking about?
You don't lose the Spell from your Spellbook when you prepare a different set of spells.
You can ALWAYS go back to it the next day.

Wizards can prepare Wizard Level + Int Mod spells
Druid can prepare Druid Level + Wis Mod spells

both classes effectively learn every spell from their list.

What sort of hostile DM that actively attempts to screw the player are you playing with that would lead to the sentence "DM throws you a few bones"

[Witty Username]

By Power?
-Wizard
-Sorcerer
-Druid
-Warlock
-Bard
-Cleric

By Personal preferences?
-Wizard
-Warlock
-Bard
-Druid
-Cleric
-Sorcerer

I very much like directly motivated characters, wizard and warlock do the best with this idea. Casters that choose to be spellcasters and have a goal and purpose pursuing magic is appealing to me, and helps me make cohesive characters. The next is gameplay, I like playing the utility support types and having flexibility to get very specific on themes, Warlock, Wizard, and Bard all do this very well which the widest arrays of choices for casters. Cleric would be on this list too, but I find the base spell list of the class very restrictive which makes roleplay for some of the domains difficult. Druid is a bit of a special case, as I have had an affection for the class since Ad&d and while I can't tend to fit it with a variety of concepts, it tends to be evocative enough in its focus. In short, I don't always want to play a hermit type that wields the forces of nature, but when I do, I play a Druid.

Sorcerer is the least appealing of the casters for me, as I find the themes for the a strange combination of shackling and unhelpful. The angle of inherited magic makes characters feel disjointed and the abilities of the sorcerer tend towards the generic so it doesn't carry the specific bloodlines very well. I tend to gravitate towards warlocks and wizards when I have a concept that suggests sorcerer. Its pretty powerful though, especially if using the Xanathar's or Tasha's subclasses but it is deadly enough with a warlock or paladin multi-class. I tend to use it when I need a feature from it that I can't get elsewhere.

And for those that have noticed it on my list, No hate towards anyone that likes clerics, I think they are the weakest full caster, but that is not saying much (kinda like saying the weakest ICBM). And they are primarily as low as they are because of the frustrations working with the base class list for specific themes. I find full casters fun, including cleric and sorcerer, in fundamental ways and will still play them from time to time as the mood strikes me.