So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

[samcifer]

So every manner I can think of for using PF seems to not be workable, such as having them imagine being restrained by chains or fiery ropes.

People keep saying that it's useful, but I don't see how the spell can possibly be useful in combat. if it really is useful in combat situations, what are some examples of how it can actually do... well... Anything to justify wasting a turn casting it when you could use something like Web, fireball or hope that they fail the save against Hold Person?

(Need actual examples to 'get it' on how to use the spell, and thanks in advance)

[Unoriginal]

So every manner I can think of for using PF seems to not be workable, such as having them imagine being restrained by chains or fiery ropes.

People keep saying that it's useful, but I don't see how the spell can possibly be useful in combat. if it really is useful in combat situations, what are some examples of how it can actually do... well... Anything to justify wasting a turn casting it when you could use something like Web, fireball or hope that they fail the save against Hold Person?

(Need actual examples to 'get it' on how to use the spell, and thanks in advance)

You could make them believe they're surrounded by flames, or that a knight showed up and is threatening them, or that there is an obstacle on the way (like wooden spikes, a wall, or a briar patch), and stuff like that.

[samcifer]

You could make them believe they're surrounded by flames, or that a knight showed up and is threatening them, or that there is an obstacle on the way (like wooden spikes, a wall, or a briar patch), and stuff like that.

But there's no way to restrain them or anything that would inflict status effects such as disadvantage to them on attacking or grant players advantage to attack? That's what I would want to use it for if possible.

[Dalebert]

Two words, my friend: INT save. Many things have bad int saves.

Encase them in a metal box with spikes pointing inward so they take dmg if they try to break out. That will typically effectively restrain them and do some dmg. It's primarily a crowd control spell; not a damage spell. That's just icing and something to make the illusions more real.

Another thing is giving the blinded condition by encasing their heads in miniature iron maidens. Crawford has validated this particular approach and verified that the illusion will move with them because it's attached and it's in their minds.

EDIT: Sorry, I used plural here which might be confusing--"heads". That's because I'm fond of twinning this spell. And that's another nice thing. It's twinnable!

[Aett_Thorn]

DMs need to remember the line in the spell: "While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real." So yes, if the creature thinks that it's trapped in a box filled with spikes, it's going to act like it. It could swing its arms around and go through the box, and then try to work through figuring it out with an action, but until then, it's going to act like it's in a spikey box and probably not do that, especially if it tries to move and takes damage.

[hellgrammite]

So every manner I can think of for using PF seems to not be workable, such as having them imagine being restrained by chains or fiery ropes.

People keep saying that it's useful, but I don't see how the spell can possibly be useful in combat. if it really is useful in combat situations, what are some examples of how it can actually do... well... Anything to justify wasting a turn casting it when you could use something like Web, fireball or hope that they fail the save against Hold Person?

(Need actual examples to 'get it' on how to use the spell, and thanks in advance)

Your outnumbered by drow. A Drow assassin is tearing the party Cleric apart. You cast Phantasmal Force on the drow, convincing him he sees Lolth standing before him and chastising his pathetic male strength. The Cleric begins healing the rest of the team.

As a DM, I would have to consider this highly effective in most cases. I would even possibly argue that the drow now suffers from the frightened condition (since per the spell it would treat it as real), and likely moves to prone on its next turn graveling for mercy. Being rfightened would also give it disadvantage on its intelligence check. A drow male would hardly question the appearance of Lolth, at least in a short period of time, and would likely stay out of combat.

Getting a creature to gravel, beg or be overstruck with terror to me would be effective since its imposing directly or indirectly a paralyzing or fear condition.

[Unoriginal]

But there's no way to restrain them or anything that would inflict status effects such as disadvantage to them on attacking or grant players advantage to attack? That's what I would want to use it for if possible.

I honestly don't know why you would want this when you can use it to completely stop the enemy from attacking.

You can simply make so they don't see the PCs (ex: make them believe there is a wall around them), and so the PCs will have advantage on attack while they won't be able to attack (unless they start taking random swings at the wall)

[samcifer]

I honestly don't know why you would want this when you can use it to completely stop the enemy from attacking.

You can simply make so they don't see the PCs (ex: make them believe there is a wall around them), and so the PCs will have advantage on attack while they won't be able to attack (unless they start taking random swings at the wall)

Well, I heard talk of it restricting movement, so I assumed that was the best practical use of it. Trying to figure out ways to use it to benefit players in combat in more than just distracting the target and wanting to learn how it can give players advantage and/or give the target disadvantage on attacking while PF is active on them. To me, it's a very difficult to figure out spell to use as I tend to think more as a blaster than a buff/debuff caster and have a hard time figuring out how to be creature in making use of such vaguely worded (Imo) spells like this and Command.

Having in-game examples would help me to understand how to use it effectively/at all.

[samcifer]

Your outnumbered by drow. A Drow assassin is tearing the party Cleric apart. You cast Phantasmal Force on the drow, convincing him he sees Lolth standing before him and chastising his pathetic male strength. The Cleric begins healing the rest of the team.

As a DM, I would have to consider this highly effective in most cases. I would even possibly argue that the drow now suffers from the frightened condition (since per the spell it would treat it as real), and likely moves to prone on its next turn graveling for mercy. Being rfightened would also give it disadvantage on its intelligence check. A drow male would hardly question the appearance of Lolth, at least in a short period of time, and would likely stay out of combat.

Getting a creature to gravel, beg or be overstruck with terror to me would be effective since its imposing directly or indirectly a paralyzing or fear condition.

Interesting, but I think it involves knowing lure about Drow vs. this this Lloth person/creature. I've never studied up on the mythology of the game as I haven't played it a lot so far and we're playing a homebrew campaign that so far seems to involve very little of universal D&D mythology. (Ironic as I'm playing a Divine Soul/Hexblade mc character who should probably know some of this.)

[Gardakan]

1. To fool a guard, make him believe that a local noble is walking with you.

2. Make appear a vast pit in front of him so he has to at least get around to make it close to you. (Using his move action to get near).

3. That he has a demon trying to stab it. Make him takes 1d6 psychic damage each subsequent turn and worries him quite much.

Go on.

[samcifer]

Basically, I'm looking for ways to inflict status conditions such as restrained, blinded, etc. on targets to grant advantage to me and mine and possibly disadvantage to the target(s) as well.

[hellgrammite]

Interesting, but I think it involves knowing lure about Drow vs. this this Lloth person/creature. I've never studied up on the mythology of the game as I haven't played it a lot so far and we're playing a homebrew campaign that so far seems to involve very little of universal D&D mythology. (Ironic as I'm playing a Divine Soul/Hexblade mc character who should probably know some of this.)

That is the roleplaying and investigation part of the campaign. If your engaging with foes, and had prior access to their religious texts, journals, spellbooks...ect, you could study the images and learn what makes your enemy terrified.

Phantasmal Force is a spell that demands and rewards creativity, roleplaying and a good DM. If you tell your DM your going to make them think their demon god of horror just appeared to one of them after deciphering their religious texts you confiscated, you should be reward.

A Sage background with access to Phantasmal force would make for a fun and powerful character if harnessed correctly.

[Gardakan]

Basically, I'm looking for ways to inflict status conditions such as restrained, blinded, etc. on targets to grant advantage to me and mine and possibly disadvantage to the target(s) as well.

You can't restrain him, since the illusion isn't real. It has to push him away from it or he's disbelieving it quite fast.

You can force him in a corner by having a 10 ft x 10 ft Gelatinous Cube or Monster appear (pick something really scary)

You can corner him in a cage if you want. As soon as he touches the metal, he goes through, it may buy you a turn of him wandering what happened, maybe two.

Phantasmal force is a niche spell that rewards quick-thinking and creativity.

[Unoriginal]

Well, I heard talk of it restricting movement, so I assumed that was the best practical use of it. Trying to figure out ways to use it to benefit players in combat in more than just distracting the target and wanting to learn how it can give players advantage and/or give the target disadvantage on attacking while PF is active on them. To me, it's a very difficult to figure out spell to use as I tend to think more as a blaster than a buff/debuff caster and have a hard time figuring out how to be creature in making use of such vaguely worded (Imo) spells like this and Command.

Having in-game examples would help me to understand how to use it effectively/at all.

Again, you could make them believe they're in a box with acid dripping from the walls. It will restrict movement and stop them from attacking a while

[samcifer]

That is the roleplaying and investigation part of the campaign. If your engaging in foes, and have access to their religious texts, journals, spellbooks...ect, you could study the images and learn what makes your enemy terrified.

Phantasmal Force is a spell that demands and rewards creativity, roleplaying and a good DM. If you tell your DM your going to make them think their demon god of horror just appeared to one of them after deciphering their religious texts you confiscated, he should be reward.

A Sage background with access to Phantasmal force would make for a fun and powerful character if harnessed correctly.

Funny enough, Sage IS the background I went with. Usually, though, we tend to have lots of random encounters with little backstory. The main focal points of the homebrewed campaign we're going through are:

Generations ago some vague (to my personal recollection out-of-game) wiped out much life in the land. We live in a citadel surrounded by wastelands inhabited by bandits and outcasts on one of a series of islands that are as many as 2 weeks travel by sea apart. We survived by scavenging the other islands for resources, but are down to the farthest unexplored islands, and were some of the explorer/scavengers, but a rather arrogant half-elf npc super soldier (he is basically a one-man party he's so good/talented) has taken over the citadel while we were away exploring. Framed for murder, we were forced to escape the citadel and make our way as pirates with the hope of one day returning to the citadel once we are strong enough and challenge the half-elf to free the citadel from his grasp.

The island we explored and returned from (then revisited before we were forced to abandon it) is apparently run by a necromancer lich who makes zombies and chimera zombies that have what I can only describe as being similar to the t-virus from the Resident Evil games.

The enemies have been so far: humanoid soldiers and bandits, t-rexes, zombies, zombie mutants, dino mutant zombies, a tribe of satyrs we encountered only once, pirates at sea, a siren, harpies we avoided fighting, a giant whale boss, a giant crab boss, and now a fishman artificer we spared and befriended. All in all, it's been a bit random with little in the way of actual lore.

[Tanarii]

Another thing is giving the blinded condition by encasing their heads in miniature iron maidens. Crawford has validated this particular approach and verified that the illusion will move with them because it's attached and it's in their minds.The problem with this one is if they move outside the 10ft cube, this illusion ends. Actually that's the problem with any illusion for phantasmal force. It's very limited, unless you make the creature not want to leave the area. Such as encasing them entirely in a 10ft cube with spikes on the inside, or flaming walls, or whatever.

[hellgrammite]

The problem with this one is if they move outside the 10ft cube, this illusion ends. Actually that's the problem with any illusion for phantasmal force. It's very limited, unless you make the creature not want to leave the area. Such as encasing them entirely in a 10ft cube with spikes on the inside, or flaming walls, or whatever.

I don't believe thats the official ruling on this. RAW by default doesn't suggest this. JeremyECrawford has stated also that the illusion can move as well.

PH, page 203, about spell range: "Once a spell is cast, it's effects aren't limited by its range unless the spell description says otherwise."

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/14/phantasmal-force-on-a-bag/

[Tanarii]

I don't believe thats the official ruling on this. RAW by default doesn't suggest this. JeremyECrawford has stated also that the illusion can move as well.

PH, page 203, about spell range: "Once a spell is cast, it's effects aren't limited by its range unless the spell description says otherwise."

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/14/phantasmal-force-on-a-bag/JC's answer doesn't say or imply that the illusion can move out of the 10ft cube.

Compare and contrast to Silent Image, which explicitly allows the image to move to any spot within range.

Edit: Actually, looking at the spell more closely, since it's in the targets head it may be able to move freely relative to the target, if appropriate to the illusion being created. I very well may have been nerfing this spell hard.

[hellgrammite]

JC's answer doesn't say or imply that the illusion can move out of the 10ft cube.

Compare and contrast to Silent Image, which explicitly allows the image to move to any spot within range.

Agreed, that is explicit in silent image, but doesnt mean the phantasmal force can't. But I have an open mind if you can show me explicity why the imagine projected from a target's mind couldn't move. I gave you two rulings that would lean to say it could, including a rule in PHB if a spell isnt explicit.

[Tanarii]

Agreed, that is explicit in silent image, but doesnt mean the phantasmal force can't. But I have an open mind if you can show me explicity why the imagine projected from a target's mind couldn't move.
I'll reply with my edit, since it was simultaneous to you posting:
Actually, looking at the spell more closely, since it's in the targets head it may be able to move freely relative to the target, if appropriate to the illusion being created. I very well may have been nerfing this spell hard.

[hellgrammite]

I'll reply with my edit, since it was simultaneous to you posting:
Actually, looking at the spell more closely, since it's in the targets head it may be able to move freely relative to the target, if appropriate to the illusion being created. I very well may have been nerfing this spell hard.

No problem. Your not exactly just creating an illusion, your spell is going inside the target's mind and he is then projecting an illusion. Debate is useful on sites like this.

I would argue its one of the more powerful spells you could use at 2nd level. It could bestow conditions like frightened for an entire encounter on a target potentially, while dealing damage.

[DivisibleByZero]

Basically, I'm looking for ways to inflict status conditions such as restrained, blinded, etc. on targets to grant advantage to me and mine and possibly disadvantage to the target(s) as well.

What kinds of things would inflict those status conditions? Make an illusion of that.

Honestly, if you're the type of player that needs someone to explain how phantasmal force is useful, then you're probably the type of player that will find the spell less than stellar. The thing is, illusions are all about your creativity.

[strangebloke]

So I'm not familiar with all of JC's rulings, but here is what phantasmal force can do by strictest RAW:

Create an illusory object that fits within a ten-foot cube.
The target sees/hears/touches this object, and must treat it as real.
The object can deal 1d6 psychic damage a round if pain is part of the illusion.
The target rationalizes anything that happens with respect to illusion.
The target needs to spend his action making an investigation check.
The phantasm dissipates at the end of the duration... but the target doesn't get to automatically know that what he saw was an illusion.

What is not explicit, but could be allowed within RAW, is the following:

Creating an illusion that moves and acts within the ten-foot cube. (A deity appears and scolds the target)
-I'd allow this, because if you don't allow it here you can't allow it for any other of the 'image' line of spells. But by RAW this isn't necessarily how things should work. And the PC should definitely not have real-time control over the image. The image should have a simple program that it follows and be under DM control.

Creating an illusion that 'sticks' to the target. (A series of gongs appear around the target, clanging. He runs away, and they follow him.)
-I... would not allow this. Allowing the phantasm to track the target makes the illusion a little too smart, particularly when things like teleportation come into play.

The object can be interacted with (you trap someone in a hamster ball, and the act of him running lets him keep moving... and the ball moves with him.)
-I would allow this.

The object can inflict status effects like 'blind' and 'restrained.'
-I would NOT allow this. However, you should be able to effectively blind someone, by rendering all of your party 'unseen.' If the target thinks he is restrained, .

...And I think that covers it. By default, though, you should be able to do the iron maiden trick, although that won't really work too well on dumb creatures. You should be able to convince a local authority that the illusory man sitting in your caravan is in fact the king in disguise. You should be able to create a phantasmal duplicate of yourself that the target won't be able to distinguish from yourself.

should

But DMs are idiots about these things.

[hellgrammite]

What kinds of things would inflict those status conditions? Make an illusion of that.

Honestly, if you're the type of player that needs someone to explain how phantasmal force is useful, then you're probably the type of player that will find the spell less than stellar. The thing is, illusions are all about your creativity.

Reading the spell again, even I missed something "The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm."

The example is falling through an illusionary bridge, and the target thinks he slipped off or something, not that the bridge isn't real. The target will do anything possible to believe the illusion.

I have not had a character in one of my campaigns use this spell, but realistically once a creature fails the initial save it might be very hard for them to attempt to investigate it. Unless an ally is attempting to convince them, or I rule they are a very intelligent creature, or some strange event happens, they would likely believe it for 1 minute.

[hellgrammite]

Creating an illusion that 'sticks' to the target. (A series of gongs appear around the target, clanging. He runs away, and they follow him.)
-I... would not allow this. Allowing the phantasm to track the target makes the illusion a little too smart, particularly when things like teleportation come into play.


I would allow the illusion to stick.

1) This has been ruled to be allowable as mentioned earlier.
2) The illusion is 'rooted inside the mind' of the target. While this is an Illusion category spell, it really its written like an enchantment spell, since the illusion is within the creatures mind.

Its why its called Phantasmal Force. Its a delusion within the creature. It is also a delusion they will believe in almost every circumstance if possible, which to me is quite a powerful description, and damage doesn't break the deception either!

[Contrast]

Creating an illusion that moves and acts within the ten-foot cube. (A deity appears and scolds the target)
-I'd allow this, because if you don't allow it here you can't allow it for any other of the 'image' line of spells. But by RAW this isn't necessarily how things should work. And the PC should definitely not have real-time control over the image. The image should have a simple program that it follows and be under DM control.

The ability to create a creature who attacks (one of the explicit functions of the spell) would make no sense if the illusion couldn't move.

RAW its unclear if the spellcaster can choose not to inflict the damage each turn it they created a damaging illusion (which would undermine the idea that you caster doesn't have turn by turn control) but I'm inclined to agree that I would rule that the spell should just be given a remit when cast and work based on that.


Creating an illusion that 'sticks' to the target. (A series of gongs appear around the target, clanging. He runs away, and they follow him.)
-I... would not allow this. Allowing the phantasm to track the target makes the illusion a little too smart, particularly when things like teleportation come into play.

I think you're on much shakier ground here. The spell doesn't target a 10 foot cube, it targets the mind of a person and can cause them to see an illusion of no more than a 10 foot cube. I would argue whether the illusion will move depends entirely on the nature of the illusion created (which is I believe support by Sage Advice).


The object can be interacted with (you trap someone in a hamster ball, and the act of him running lets him keep moving... and the ball moves with him.)
-I would allow this.

I don't get why you would allow this but not the one above.


The object can inflict status effects like 'blind' and 'restrained.'
-I would NOT allow this. However, you should be able to effectively blind someone, by rendering all of your party 'unseen.' If the target thinks he is restrained, .

Again confused - how do you render the party unseen without conjuring an illusory bag over their head (inflicting blindness).


...And I think that covers it. By default, though, you should be able to do the iron maiden trick, although that won't really work too well on dumb creatures.

Why wouldn't it work on dumb creatures. The phantasm includes sound, temperature and other stimuli (including physical pain). If they aren't intelligent enough to realise its illusory it feels real to them. This spell is at its best with dumb creatures/animals as they'll likely keep wasting their turns trying to interact with the illusion and failing (allowing the party to focus on other combatants in the combat) where a more intelligent foe might just accept whatever thing is only doing d6 damage a turn and start doing something else.


You should be able to convince a local authority that the illusory man sitting in your caravan is in fact the king in disguise.

I mean...you can certainly create an illusory person. Convincing him that's the king is an entirely separate matter. :smallbiggrin:


You should be able to create a phantasmal duplicate of yourself that the target won't be able to distinguish from yourself.

The only reason I don't see this working is if your DM doesn't let you have any control over the appearance of the illusion which would be an...interesting choice? In practice if you're in combat at the time the enemy is likely to quickly realise one of you is doing a lot more damage than the other.

[strangebloke]

I would allow the illusion to stick.

1) This has been ruled to be allowable as mentioned earlier.
2) The illusion is 'rooted inside the mind' of the target. While this is an Illusion category spell, it really its written like an enchantment spell, since the illusion is within the creatures mind.

Its why its called Phantasmal Force. Its a delusion within the creature. It is also a delusion they will believe in almost every circumstance if possible, which to me is quite a powerful description, and damage doesn't break the deception either!

That's a completely fair ruling. I actually changed my personal ruling on the topic a couple of times when I was typing this up. I've ran it both ways in games.

On the one hand, it's in the mind of the creature, so having it stick to the creature makes more sense than having it stick to, say, an arbitrary wall, for instance. On the other hand, it's also rooted in your mind via the concentration mechanic, so it also makes sense for it to be fixed to a point that you're holding in your mind.

Potato potato.

[hellgrammite]

That's a completely fair ruling. I actually changed my personal ruling on the topic a couple of times when I was typing this up. I've ran it both ways in games.

On the one hand, it's in the mind of the creature, so having it stick to the creature makes more sense than having it stick to, say, an arbitrary wall, for instance. On the other hand, it's also rooted in your mind via the concentration mechanic, so it also makes sense for it to be fixed to a point that you're holding in your mind.

Potato potato.

I didnt have that opinion either until earlier today when I re-read the spell for the post. Being an 'illusion' spell makes one at first blush compare it to other illusion spells.

Compared to Phantasmal Killer (4th level), there are some interesting pros/cons. There are situations where Phantasmal Force might be stronger if your interested in keeping a creature out of combat longer (Phantasmal Killer deals a massive amount of damage each turn, but also gives them a save every turn.) As written, I am not sure a target of Phantasmal Force would make an investigation check every turn, or at all in some cases.

[samcifer]

Okay, I think I've got a way to accomplish what I want...

Say I create an illusion of wither rings of flame or a cylinder of fire surrounding the target and about five inches from their body. Since fire can be passed through, if they touch it the effect of PF would inflict 1d6 damage they would consider fire damage (per the spell effect even though it's really psychic damage). Since they can't move far without touching the illusion, couldn't that cause them to believe they are restrained by the flames, resulting in the restrained condition? If I kept the flames lower than the victim's head, they could still see, so no blinded condition. Would this achieve what I would want to have happen? (meaning they are restrained and provide advantage to anyone who attacks them?)

[polymphus]

Tomb of Annihilation. We'd just arrived in Omu, we were lv4, and we ran into a CR10 Froghemoth. It could've easily wiped the party.

It failed its Int Save against Phantasmal Force, and suddenly, Ubtao, god of those ancient lands, rose from the water and started shouting at it like Hulk Hogan. "OOOOOH YEAH, UBTAO'S GONNA SMASH YA! UBTAO'S GONNA TAKE YOU OUT TO DINNER AND NEVER CALL BACK, BROTHER!"

Every time its attention would turn back to the party, I would make a great show of having the illusory hogan take the trash talk to the next level while punching it in the head.

Towards the end of the fight, I was literally walking around the game table with my arms out, showboating for an invisible audience, shouting about how Ubtao was GONNA BRING THE PAIN AGAIN AND AGAIN.

This managed to lock the froghemoth down for a full minute, while the party chipped it to death.

That's how we won a CR10 fight at lvl4, without taking a single point of damage. Phantasmal Force rocks, you've just gotta get creative with it.

[strangebloke]

The ability to create a creature who attacks (one of the explicit functions of the spell) would make no sense if the illusion couldn't move.
Missed that. Good point.


RAW its unclear if the spellcaster can choose not to inflict the damage each turn it they created a damaging illusion (which would undermine the idea that you caster doesn't have turn by turn control) but I'm inclined to agree that I would rule that the spell should just be given a remit when cast and work based on that.
Some spells like major image let you alter the illusion turn by turn. The illusionist wizard class feature is there for all the other spells. Since there's nothing in PF that says you can, I would argue that you can't.

I think you're on much shakier ground here. The spell doesn't target a 10 foot cube, it targets the mind of a person and can cause them to see an illusion of no more than a 10 foot cube. I would argue whether the illusion will move depends entirely on the nature of the illusion created (which is I believe support by Sage Advice).

I don't get why you would allow this but not the one above.
Well, the thing is an illusion, so it can't actually be interacted with. That's just a question of how good you're allowed to 'program' the behavior of the object. The illusion is in the mind of the target, sure, but it should behave like whatever it's an illusory copy of. An iron maiden doesn't typically teleport to follow the person imprisoned inside of it.

"I create magical chains that are on fire and teleport to follow the creature their binding, and reattach to him whenever he breaks free," does work, I guess.

Again confused - how do you render the party unseen without conjuring an illusory bag over their head (inflicting blindness).
Ah! But a 'guy with a bag over his head' is not blind He can see perfectly fine within the bag. Just like being inside a cloud of darkness doesn't make you 'blind.' If he took the bag off his head, he could see you all fine.

The point is, you can't do anything to the person you're casting this on.

Why wouldn't it work on dumb creatures. The phantasm includes sound, temperature and other stimuli (including physical pain). If they aren't intelligent enough to realise its illusory it feels real to them. This spell is at its best with dumb creatures/animals as they'll likely keep wasting their turns trying to interact with the illusion and failing (allowing the party to focus on other combatants in the combat) where a more intelligent foe might just accept whatever thing is only doing d6 damage a turn and start doing something else.
If none of the things I listed as 'questionable' are allowable, you can't make the iron maiden move with the person. So if he's dumb, he tries to break free, damn the spikes, and... succeeds. Because the thing wasn't actually there, and therefore he can escape trivially.

I mean...you can certainly create an illusory person. Convincing him that's the king is an entirely separate matter. :smallbiggrin:
He looks like the king, has the signet ring, speaks with the king's voice, reveals some private detail that only a few people know... Hmph. Would require a bluff check.

The only reason I don't see this working is if your DM doesn't let you have any control over the appearance of the illusion which would be an...interesting choice? In practice if you're in combat at the time the enemy is likely to quickly realise one of you is doing a lot more damage than the other.
Against an INT 4 Ogre, it'd be fine, especially if you're low level.

[LeonBH]

Okay, I think I've got a way to accomplish what I want...

Say I create an illusion of wither rings of flame or a cylinder of fire surrounding the target and about five inches from their body. Since fire can be passed through, if they touch it the effect of PF would inflict 1d6 damage they would consider fire damage (per the spell effect even though it's really psychic damage). Since they can't move far without touching the illusion, couldn't that cause them to believe they are restrained by the flames, resulting in the restrained condition? If I kept the flames lower than the victim's head, they could still see, so no blinded condition. Would this achieve what I would want to have happen? (meaning they are restrained and provide advantage to anyone who attacks them?)

That wouldn't impose the restrained condition. They may believe they're boxed in, but being boxed in does not impose the restrained condition.

If the fire blocked line of sight though (ie, the wall of flame was tall enough), everyone is unseen for that target, and everyone will have advantage in attacking him.


Tomb of Annihilation. We'd just arrived in Omu, we were lv4, and we ran into a CR10 Froghemoth. It could've easily wiped the party.

It failed its Int Save against Phantasmal Force, and suddenly, Ubtao, god of those ancient lands, rose from the water and started shouting at it like Hulk Hogan. "OOOOOH YEAH, UBTAO'S GONNA SMASH YA! UBTAO'S GONNA TAKE YOU OUT TO DINNER AND NEVER CALL BACK, BROTHER!"

Every time its attention would turn back to the party, I would make a great show of having the illusory hogan take the trash talk to the next level while punching it in the head.

Towards the end of the fight, I was literally walking around the game table with my arms out, showboating for an invisible audience, shouting about how Ubtao was GONNA BRING THE PAIN AGAIN AND AGAIN.

This managed to lock the froghemoth down for a full minute, while the party chipped it to death.

That's how we won a CR10 fight at lvl4, without taking a single point of damage. Phantasmal Force rocks, you've just gotta get creative with it.

Hilarious!

[Veldrenor]

1) Walls. There's an archer firing down at you from a balcony? Close him in. The big boss is running down a hallway towards your group? Seal the doorway while you dispatch his minions. Phantasmal Force can be great for keeping a foe out of the fight.
2) Swarms. Creating the illusion of lots and lots of little creatures makes it very easy for the target to rationalize why they're constantly taking damage and can't get away from or destroy the source. I like to use locusts, wasps, or bats, leaving the target blind, deaf, and taking damage every turn.
3) Environmental effects. Fog, smoke, darkness, or blinding light affect visibility. Thorn bushes or hot coals deal damage. Uneven or icy ground can slow the target down (smart creatures tend to walk more slowly and carefully when they think they could slip and fall, although this is extremely DM dependent).

[busterswd]

The trick to Phantasmal Force being a decent spell is remember that your goal isn't to physically stop a target from doing something; your goal is to control what the creature does or doesn't want to do.

So if it's a wild animal that's afraid of fire, you don't convince it that it's wrapped in chains of fire; you convince it that it's surrounded by a wall of fire so it doesn't want to leave its square.

You don't convince a flying creature that it's trapped in a spider web, but rather that a rather robust looking spiderweb is blocking that narrow passage your party escaped through.

If there's an angry orc trying to catch up to the party, and there's a 10 ft chasm separating you from him, you create a stable looking bridge so he doesn't just take a running jump over it and instead falls.

That, and as Leon is noting, it's a quick and dirty Blindness spell, if all else fails.

Like any Illusion spell, DM fiat can make it useless if they're hellbent on shutting you down. But if you have a reasonable DM, you can usually do some pretty cool stuff with it.

[samcifer]

That wouldn't impose the restrained condition. They may believe they're boxed in, but being boxed in does not impose the restrained condition.

If the fire blocked line of sight though (ie, the wall of flame was tall enough), everyone is unseen for that target, and everyone will have advantage in attacking him.

So if I surrounded them with a cylinder of fire or create a cloud of thick noxious smoke or darkness that is freezing cold around them, they would effectively be blinded, granting advantage to anyone attacking him and him disadvantage on all attacks and take damage (from choking on the smoke or suffering from 'exposure' to the cold the illusion would create? And the effect would be the same if I make an illusion of a continuous fireball blast effect as the fire obscures sight and causes 'fire' damage?

Just wanting to see if I understand correctly.

[Contrast]

Ah! But a 'guy with a bag over his head' is not blind He can see perfectly fine within the bag. Just like being inside a cloud of darkness doesn't make you 'blind.' If he took the bag off his head, he could see you all fine.

They're as blinded as someone within the darkness spell (in that their sight is blocked by heavy obscurement). Are you saying you wouldn't impose the mechanical effects of being blinded?


If none of the things I listed as 'questionable' are allowable, you can't make the iron maiden move with the person. So if he's dumb, he tries to break free, damn the spikes, and... succeeds. Because the thing wasn't actually there, and therefore he can escape trivially.

He tried to break free, bursts out, takes damage and then miraculously finds himself trapped again. An intelligent foe might realise something is up (by passing their intelligence check) but the less intelligent your foe the more likely they are just to sit there after a few attempts. Frankly for a low intelligence opponent even them spending their turns trying to pass the test is a win as they'll likely fail and waste multiple turns doing nothing as a result.

I played in a game where a big dumb monster spent an entire combat trying to kill the 'rogue' stabbing it in the back while the rest of the party steered clear of it and concentrated on killing the cultists who had sicced it on us.


He looks like the king, has the signet ring, speaks with the king's voice, reveals some private detail that only a few people know... Hmph. Would require a bluff check.

Sorry slightly misunderstood - you said convince him it was the king in disguise (i.e. not looking like the king). Certainly if they look like the king, are acting like the king and know stuff the king should know. That said, you're living in a world in which disguise self is a level 1 spell so there will be some consequences if/when people figure out what you're up to and they will. I feel trying to leverage this particular trick too much is always going to backfire on you at some point :smalltongue:

[LeonBH]

So if I surrounded them with a cylinder of fire or create a cloud of thick noxious smoke or darkness that is freezing cold around them, they would effectively be blinded, granting advantage to anyone attacking him and him disadvantage on all attacks and take damage (from choking on the smoke or suffering from 'exposure' to the cold the illusion would create? And the effect would be the same if I make an illusion of a continuous fireball blast effect as the fire obscures sight and causes 'fire' damage?

Just wanting to see if I understand correctly.

Yes. They're not really blind. Everyone is just unseen for them, so they're effectively blind.


Sorry slightly misunderstood - you said convince him it was the king in disguise (i.e. not looking like the king). Certainly if they look like the king, are acting like the king and know stuff the king should know. That said, you're living in a world in which disguise self is a level 1 spell so there will be some consequences if/when people figure out what you're up to and they will. I feel trying to leverage this particular trick too much is always going to backfire on you at some point

It could be one of those "the King is coming here in disguise, but we all totally know it's the King because, well, it's obvious. But he's the King, so let's pretend his disguise works brilliantly."

[hellgrammite]

So if I surrounded them with a cylinder of fire or create a cloud of thick noxious smoke or darkness that is freezing cold around them, they would effectively be blinded, granting advantage to anyone attacking him and him disadvantage on all attacks and take damage (from choking on the smoke or suffering from 'exposure' to the cold the illusion would create? And the effect would be the same if I make an illusion of a continuous fireball blast effect as the fire obscures sight and causes 'fire' damage?

Just wanting to see if I understand correctly.

Maybe, its up to your DM.

Realistically, the target might be blinded for one round. A dumb creature would probably panic and run tgrew the fire. Realizing it didn't hurt it, he would wonder if it was real (if he moved more than 5 feet away from it, he would no longer take damage from an image anymore) He also wouldn't be blinded anymore.

If your so obsessed with blindness, why not just choose the blindness spell???

[samcifer]

Yes. They're not really blind. Everyone is just unseen for them, so they're effectively blind.

Okay, good. I can work with that to make the spell useful for me. Even if it's only 1 or 2 targets, a Faerie Fire type of advantage against kind of effect (minus the no-invisibility and illuminated parts and limited to those targets only) will prove useful for me and my group.

[LeonBH]

Okay, good. I can work with that to make the spell useful for me. Even if it's only 1 or 2 targets, a Faerie Fire type of advantage against kind of effect (minus the no-invisibility and illuminated parts and limited to those targets only) will prove useful for me and my group.

Just don't forget that they can still move through the fire (though they shouldn't want to). But moving their arms around through flame won't necessarily destroy those flames at least.


If your so obsessed with blindness, why not just choose the blindness spell???

Because Blindness imposes blindness or deafness but not both, and it's a Con save.

[samcifer]

Maybe, its up to your DM.

Realistically, the target might be blinded for one round. A dumb creature would probably panic and run through the fire. Realizing it didn't hurt it, he would wonder if it was real (if he moved more than 5 feet away, he would realize it no longer harmed him.) He also wouldn't be blinded anymore.

If your so obsessed with blindness, just choose the blindness spell???

This targets intelligence, so it would work, and if I make the illusion so that it surrounds them and 'seems endless' as it takes root in their mind and can potentially follow them as they move based on this, they theoretically couldn't just run out of it to escape, and since the effect is based on non-solid matter in the form of darkness, fog or flame that can't hinder the movement of a hand, that would make it unable to be disproved via touch, if I understand correctly.

[polymphus]

seriouspost: working on INT saves is pretty huge as well -- monsters tend to have garbage INT. I'm running a debuff/control Bard and I run into low Int a lot more than I run into low Wis, or even low Cha.

As a control spell, it's also notable in that it doesn't allow saves every turn: the monster needs to burn its action to check out the illusion, which requires it knowing it might be dealing with an illusion. Since it likely has low Int, its odds of figuring it out (and passing the save) are pretty low. If Phantasmal Force works, it's likely to work for the whole minute.

It's only a 2nd-level slot, it targets a stat that's generally pretty low, it tends to last a pretty long time (relative to combat speed) and it has a wide variety of uses depending on how creative you get with it.

Generally, that amounts to "prevent monster x from doing y for 60 seconds". Medusa? There's a swirling mist of shattered mirror glass around her head, that coalesces into a mirror every time she tries to use her stare. Demon? A sigil of whichever god it hates the most appears, hanging in the air between it and you. Nature-loving druid? A sad puppy whines out in pain from somewhere nearby and in dog-language it cries out for his help, then runs away from him when he tries to approach.

You're trying to annoy, to distract, to stall. It's not a spell for killing monsters, but it's an excellent spell for keeping them busy and keeping them off your party.

Phantasmal Force, like all illusion spells, is worthless unless you get creative with it. If you get creative, it gets crazy pretty fast.

[samcifer]

seriouspost: working on INT saves is pretty huge as well -- monsters tend to have garbage INT. I'm running a debuff/control Bard and I run into low Int a lot more than I run into low Wis, or even low Cha.

As a control spell, it's also notable in that it doesn't allow saves every turn: the monster needs to burn its action to check out the illusion, which requires it knowing it might be dealing with an illusion. Since it likely has low Int, its odds of figuring it out (and passing the save) are pretty low. If Phantasmal Force works, it's likely to work for the whole minute.

It's only a 2nd-level slot, it targets a stat that's generally pretty low, it tends to last a pretty long time (relative to combat speed) and it has a wide variety of uses depending on how creative you get with it.

Generally, that amounts to "prevent monster x from doing y for 60 seconds". Medusa? There's a swirling mist of shattered mirror glass around her head, that coalesces into a mirror every time she tries to use her stare. Demon? A sigil of whichever god it hates the most appears, hanging in the air between it and you. Nature-loving druid? A sad puppy whines out in pain from somewhere nearby and in dog-language it cries out for his help, then runs away from him when he tries to approach.

You're trying to annoy, to distract, to stall. It's not a spell for killing monsters, but it's an excellent spell for keeping them busy and keeping them off your party.

Phantasmal Force, like all illusion spells, is worthless unless you get creative with it. If you get creative, it gets crazy pretty fast.

Yeah, my goal with PF is to make the targets of the spell easier to hit and make it harder for them to attack since restraining/paralyzing them isn't possible. Just trying to figure out what kinds of illusions I would need to make to cause that to happen.

[polymphus]

Yeah, my goal with PF is to make the targets of the spell easier to hit and make it harder for them to attack since restraining/paralyzing them isn't possible. Just trying to figure out what kinds of illusions I would need to make to cause that to happen.
Okay so, generally the way I do it is think about the monster, and try to pick a particular weakness to exploit, then generally frame it in a way that would stall anybody.

Stupid example, but one that worked: I was fighting against Yuan-ti. They're snake people. The ground beneath our yuan-ti crumbles, and he's suddenly being swarmed by angry mongooses, whose nest he accidentally slithered over.

My thought process in casting this:

1) What are snakes afraid of? Mongooses.
2) What if Yuan-ti aren't afraid of mongooses? Well okay, frame it in a way that would cause problems for anybody.
3) Stepping into a hole filled with angry long-rats would cause problems for most people.

It works if I got it wrong, it works better if I got it right. As it turns out, the Yuan-ti spent two turns pulling herpestidae out of his flesh while the party dealt to his friends. He was a backline guy flinging arrows, and the mongoose nest was a more pressing problem than the adventurers fighting his buddies.

So that's my Phantasmal Force advice:

1) Pick a weakness of the monster to target
2) Frame it in such a way that it'll work even if you messed step 1 up

Supplementary: if possible, target enemies who are further away from the party, so the illusion is more likely to hold their attention.

[hellgrammite]

Yeah, my goal with PF is to make the targets of the spell easier to hit and make it harder for them to attack since restraining/paralyzing them isn't possible. Just trying to figure out what kinds of illusions I would need to make to cause that to happen.

As long as you know that those illusions would work only sometimes. As a DM, I would want your illusion to be worded in a few words (a cylinder of fire surrounds the creature.) I would allow for more indepth illusions, as long as they were unique.

The creature at the end of the day is imagining this in its mind.

Imposing blindness on a creature is a big deal. It allows attacks against it to have advantage. That is powerful. As a DM, I would only allow that in situations that are highly creative and unique. If I see a player saying the creature is in a cylinder of this and a cylinder of that...as a DM I would react to it if its getting to abused.

But it sounds like your running more of a hack and slash campaign, so your DM might be more fine with it.

Note, situations that make creatures have advantage on attack rolls against it are more likely to have the creature panick or react unexpectedly. Being blind or prone are conditions most creatures will do anything to get out of.

An Orc is not going to necessarily become afraid of fire. He might jump through it just to have something to brag about with the other dim-wits in the cave. Minor pain for dumb creature (1d6) quickly because irrelevant once you get to higher levels.

Fear though...now that is different. You appear to summon a god, and creatures will quickly become frightened. Even high level creatures would get scared of a Balor plopping in. That also puts disadvantage on their ability checks and attack rolls. per the rules, a frightened creature won't approach the target of its fear as well, which makes investigation even more difficult.

I have been DMing for nearly 10 years, just giving you my honest opinion of how I would treat this spell. Conditions like blindness are very difficult to sustain for a period of time, unless your constantly being creative with spells like this.



So that's my Phantasmal Force advice:

1) Pick a weakness of the monster to target
2) Frame it in such a way that it'll work even if you messed step 1 up

Supplementary: if possible, target enemies who are further away from the party, so the illusion is more likely to hold their attention.

Exactly. I would reward a PC who uses indepth knowledge of those foes against them.

[samcifer]

As long as you know that those illusions would work only sometimes. As a DM, I would want your illusion to be worded in a few words (a cylinder of fire surrounds the creature.) I would allow for more indepth illusions, as long as they were unique.

The creature at the end of the day is imagining this in its mind.

Imposing blindness on a creature is a big deal. It allows attacks against it to have advantage. That is powerful. As a DM, I would only allow that in situations that are highly creative and unique. If I see a player saying the creature is in a cylinder of this and a cylinder of that...as a DM I would react to it if its getting to abused.

But it sounds like your running more of a hack and slash campaign, so your DM might be more fine with it.

Note, situations that make creatures have advantage on attack rolls against it are more likely to have the creature panick or react unexpectedly. Being blind or prone are conditions most creatures will do anything to get out of.

An Orc is not going to necessarily become afraid of fire. He might jump through it just to have something to brag about with the other dim-wits in the cave. Minor pain for dumb creature (1d6) quickly because irrelevant once you get to higher levels.

Fear though...now that is different. You appear to summon a god, and creatures will quickly become frightened. That also puts disadvantage on their ability checks and attack rolls. per the rules, a frightened creature won't approach the target of its fear as well, which makes investigation even more difficult.

I have been DMing for nearly 10 years, just giving you my honest opinion of how I would treat this spell. Conditions like blindness are very difficult to sustain for a period of time, unless your constantly being creative with spells like this.



Exactly. I would reward a PC who uses indepth knowledge of those foes against them.

Well, if I say: "darkness surrounds him/her/it as far as the eye can see. The darkness is freeing cold and within it (the target) can hear the fluttering of leathery wings and hissing, sinister whispers of various unseen horrors wandering in the darkness as if in search of easy prey..."

[intermedial]

My ruling has regarding the spell is this: if the spell were meant to be able to restrain, blind, or impose any other status condition on the target creature, the spell would explicitly state as such. It would also then likely grant an automatic saving throw to escape, instead of forcing a creature to make an Investigate check as an action.

As written, the spell is poorly thought out and easily abused. It also exists alongside other 2nd level spells such as Blindness/ Deafness, Hold Person, and Web: all of which offer reliable means to blind, paralyze, and restrain one or more targets with very clear parameters. I've experienced players trying to argue for interpretations of Phantasmal Force that elevate the power of the spell in abusive ways on-par with 6th level spells such as Otto's Irresistible Dance and Mental Prison.

The caster cannot actually see the illusion, it exists solely in the mind of the target, and the caster has no control over the illusion after it is created. The spell does not allow the caster to dynamically reprogram the illusion on-the-fly, either.

A phantasm of a solid wall, chains, a box, or other restraints around a creature still allows their hands and extremities to pass through them. The spell does not suggest that the illusion is in any way reactive. It is a totally reasonable reaction to the sudden appearance of magical restraints to test them. The creature finds that the restrains or walls do not hold them. They reason that they must somehow be able to slip out, even though it's completely illogical that they could do so -- but this is a similar reasoning to what's described in the PHB itself "I must have somehow slipped off". This doesn't make any logical sense in actuality, but the spell forces the creature to kind of shrug it off and move along.

[hellgrammite]

Well, if I say: "darkness surrounds him/her/it as far as the eye can see. The darkness is freeing cold and within it (the target) can hear the fluttering of leathery wings and hissing, sinister whispers of various unseen horrors wandering in the darkness as if in search of easy prey..."

And the Orc runs saying "me no like bats, where did sun go", and after two steps, is outside the darkness, and then throws an axe at a PC. Thats how I would run it most of the time. But you did get the Orc blinded for a little bit, which is what you wanted.

Now if you really wanted to be clever, you would make the creature think somebody cast the darkness spell on its head. As a DM, I would want to be convinced by you that the target would understand what the darkness spell is. If I was convinced it would recognize the spell, and therfore imagine it effectivy is being cast on its head, creativity would be rewarded.

An explanation would be these Orcs have been fighting warlocks from across the mountain, or drow in their raids used it, so this Orc has no doubt seen darkness thrown around a bit.

[samcifer]

*sigh* getting really discouraged here. This spell sounds far too hard to use effectively. Maybe I should just see if I can talk my dm into letting me have access to Flaming Sphere instead or just go with Web as this spell is far too situational and isn't worth it just for having something very likely to hit but basically be defeated far too easily. That or go with Bane instead.

[sightlessrealit]

Before taking it. I would ask your DM about the spell and what you could be allowed to do with it before hand. If they are a buzz kill DM to the spell. Pick something else. If they are cool with it's creativity & would allow potential status effects to be made through with it. Take it. This is just one of those spells that must be talked with the DM before hand.

[polymphus]

Now if you really wanted to be clever, you would make the creature think somebody cast the darkness spell on its head. As a DM, I would want to be convinced by you that the target would understand what the darkness spell is. If I was convinced it would recognize the spell, and therfore imagine it effectivy is being cast on its head, creativity would be rewarded.
Yeah generally you want to fix the illusion to the target somehow eg a cloud of bats orbiting his head that swarm and bite if he tries to move closer to the party. That of course, relies on him being scared of bats, which doesn't strike me as particularly orcy.

You want to try pick something that would distract an orc. It doesn't even need to be a combat thing. Maybe he's attacking you because he's starving, and you put a big ole pile of fresh steaks in front of him. Maybe he's charging down a hallway, and you have a "secret trap wall" slide out and block his path.

[SharkForce]

it's a 10 foot cube. you're not going to fit a balor into it. nor are you going to fit a terribly impressive avatar of most gods. nor are you going to fit an endless field of anything.

[polymphus]

it's a 10 foot cube. you're not going to fit a balor into it. nor are you going to fit a terribly impressive avatar of most gods. nor are you going to fit an endless field of anything.
10 feet is still pretty big. It's not a towering skyscraper here, but a 10-foot tall avatar of the gods is still more threatening than a 5-foot-nothing dwarf in chainmail.

[LeonBH]

My ruling has regarding the spell is this: if the spell were meant to be able to restrain, blind, or impose any other status condition on the target creature, the spell would explicitly state as such. It would also then likely grant an automatic saving throw to escape, instead of forcing a creature to make an Investigate check as an action.

That is the nature of all illusion spells. Technically, the only RAW thing Phantasmal Force lets you create is a bridge. But you can take it and run with it since it gives you free reign on any visual phenomenon.


As written, the spell is poorly thought out and easily abused. It also exists alongside other 2nd level spells such as Blindness/ Deafness, Hold Person, and Web: all of which offer reliable means to blind, paralyze, and restrain one or more targets with very clear parameters. I've experienced players trying to argue for interpretations of Phantasmal Force that elevate the power of the spell in abusive ways on-par with 6th level spells such as Otto's Irresistible Dance and Mental Prison.

Then you can disallow such uses on the basis that the spell doesn't do that, which you are within your rights to do, because the only thing Phantasmal Force explicitly allows is making a bridge.

All illusion spells are vaguely written. That's a feature, not a bug.


The caster cannot actually see the illusion, it exists solely in the mind of the target, and the caster has no control over the illusion after it is created. The spell does not allow the caster to dynamically reprogram the illusion on-the-fly, either.

A phantasm of a solid wall, chains, a box, or other restraints around a creature still allows their hands and extremities to pass through them. The spell does not suggest that the illusion is in any way reactive. It is a totally reasonable reaction to the sudden appearance of magical restraints to test them. The creature finds that the restrains or walls do not hold them. They reason that they must somehow be able to slip out, even though it's completely illogical that they could do so -- but this is a similar reasoning to what's described in the PHB itself "I must have somehow slipped off". This doesn't make any logical sense in actuality, but the spell forces the creature to kind of shrug it off and move along.

You are free to have targets rationalize any illogical outcome as you like. As you said, there is nothing actually there to prevent movement. The one controlling the minds of the NPC is you, not the players.

[samcifer]

Yeah generally you want to fix the illusion to the target somehow eg a cloud of bats orbiting his head that swarm and bite if he tries to move closer to the party. That of course, relies on him being scared of bats, which doesn't strike me as particularly orcy.

You want to try pick something that would distract an orc. It doesn't even need to be a combat thing. Maybe he's attacking you because he's starving, and you put a big ole pile of fresh steaks in front of him. Maybe he's charging down a hallway, and you have a "secret trap wall" slide out and block his path.

The problem is that it would require hours of study of many volumes of D&D lore just to use a single spell and that seems so counter productive. I have the mindset of a blaster so maybe headgame spells require more creativity and in-game lore knowledge than I possess or am ever likely to possess. Bane sounds more up my ally. No restraining, but penalties to attacking and saving, which might suit my limited way of thinking and lack of creativity better. I'd play a martial character, but want a caster based on religious preference as well as more variety on ways to attack. I know a blaster will never be as good as a decent type of caster, but that seems to be all I know how to play and it's mostly WotC's fault for stiffing blasters like they tend to do. :(

[LeonBH]

To be fair, bane is a fantastic spell.

[hellgrammite]

The problem is that it would require hours of study of many volumes of D&D lore just to use a single spell and that seems so counter productive. I have the mindset of a blaster so maybe headgame spells require more creativity and in-game lore knowledge than I possess or am ever likely to possess. Bane sounds more up my ally. No restraining, but penalties to attacking and saving, which might suit my limited way of thinking and lack of creativity better. I'd play a martial character, but want a caster based on religious preference as well as more variety on ways to attack. I know a blaster will never be as good as a decent type of caster, but that seems to be all I know how to play and it's mostly WotC's fault for stiffing blasters like they tend to do. :(

Honestly it sounds like your group would have a better time with 4e.

5e simplifies a lot of things from 2nd (and especially 3.5), but allows for plenty of opportunity for creativity and ways to make things more powerful if creativity is applied.

If you want a blaster, as you mention, take spells fitting for a blaster. Lots of fireballs, magic missles and have fun with it. The more complex you want to make things...the more complex it gets. A good DM will feed off of you and give it right back to you.

ASK YOUR DM AT THIS POINT.

[Regulas]

The short of it is that with any illusions in general talk to your DM about how he wants to deal with them. All illusion spells can be brokenly powerful or exceedingly weak depending on the DM and your creativity, some will challenge or ignore illusions excessively and vice verca... a big question I always have with this spell is as to whether or not it can speak. A creature can be attacking at least

For this spell in particular the main things to remember are the base facts:

- Contact does not see through the illusion
- They must believe it is a "real thing" (e.g. they will think it must be a physical object and not an illusion until they have overcome the check/save)
- As it is still an illusion the spell depends on controlling the targets actions, e.g. you can deter not actually restrain.


The main use of the spell is getting a target to waste their time and or attention on the illusion in situations where they will most likely challenge (come into contact with) the illusion, which makes this one of the best in-combat illusion spells. Anything from an attacking creature to an obviously lethal object to anything else you can think of.

As always the best fun comes from being creative: make an illusion of an enemies friend. Make people believe someone is going crazy as they react to an invisible figure in weird ways. Greedy thief? Make an illusion of a chest filled with treasure he'll want to try and take "but is too heavy and keeps slipping out of his grasp". Have knowledge on the target? Make them see something story relevant, if theirs family portraits make them see a phantasm of a dead relative.

The main thing as I bolded above is that you want to use this spell when the illusion or the situation wouldn't allow for other illusion spells to work, or when the "invisible" quality of the spell would allow for fun effects.

A fun alternative use: If a big bad knows you're an illusionist! Because they have to believe it's real they cannot assume it might be an illusion even if they would otherwise think so

[Pex]

I guess I'm not selling it, but I've found the strength of the spell depends on how the DM treats illusions made by PCs.

You have the extreme where no illusion of any kind by a player will ever work. At most you'll get a one round respite long enough for the bad guy to spend its action to realize it's an illusion, if not its move or bonus action, but BBEG's will automatically know it's an illusion for free. The illusion school is useless for a player with such a DM. Such DMs do, unfortunately, exist.

Less extreme are the DMs who let illusions work but can't stand the thought of a player getting away with something. The DM will treat the illusion almost like Wish. The DM will assume you want to use the illusion to Win D&D thus will look for an excuse for the bad guy to realize it's an illusion. Not necessarily an autosuccess or in the same round, but quickly. Anything far fetched in his mind will fail to work automatically. If the player gimps himself and limits his imagination the DM is more likely to let the illusion work as the player intended.

Regular DMs do not assume malice upon PCs. The illusion functions as is, and the DM follows normal rules. He does not metagame for the bad guys. They'll assume the illusion is real unless a logical reason is given otherwise, just as a player would when confronted by a bad guy's illusion. Particular BBEGs might be less susceptible. At worst they'll automatically get an Investigation check without justifiable cause to represent their ingenuity to be a BBEG, but it's a fair die roll using the BBEG's Investigation modifier. The BBEG can fail the roll and act accordingly.

Lenient DMs let anything go. PC illusions always work as the player intended. Bad guys make saving throws and Investigation checks as normal, but once failed the bad guys are full into believing the illusion unless something absolutely obvious justifies another check.

[samcifer]

Honestly it sounds like your group would have a better time with 4e.

5e simplifies a lot of things from 2nd (and especially 3.5), but allows for plenty of opportunity for creativity and ways to make things more powerful if creativity is applied.

If you want a blaster, as you mention, take spells fitting for a blaster. Lots of fireballs, magic missles and have fun with it. The more complex you want to make things...the more complex it gets. A good DM will feed off of you and give it right back to you.

Yeah, I originally went that route and made the mistake of posting it on here only to have everyone complain that I had too many attack spells and nothing else, but my creativity just doesn't seem geared towards spells that mess with the mind. It's really depressing to find out that my ind is so limited, is all. Not whining, but feeling kind of depressed that I'm not able to play a 'good' spellcaster like so many people put stock into. I also lack damage boosts from subclasses by being a Hexblade (for added defenses from med. armor and shield) and Divine Soul (for the wider range of spells), so my damage output will never be as good as more focused blaster-casters.

[polymphus]

Yeah I mean, if you like blasting and don't like illusions, you're not gonna get much out of it. 5e definitely has a place for blasting (Sorcerer is right up your alley) but if you're looking at illusion spells you're in the wrong place.

[hellgrammite]

Yeah, I originally went that route and made the mistake of posting it on here only to have everyone complain that I had too many attack spells and nothing else, but my creativity just doesn't seem geared towards spells that mess with the mind. It's really depressing to find out that my ind is so limited, is all. Not whining, but feeling kind of depressed that I'm not able to play a 'good' spellcaster like so many people put stock into. I also lack damage boosts from subclasses by being a Hexblade (for added defenses from med. armor and shield) and Divine Soul (for the wider range of spells), so my damage output will never be as good as more focused blaster-casters.

Listen to advice, don't always follow it unless its the DM or people you play with (who should know the situation better.)

It took me being DM in about 3 campaigns until I started feeling I was doing a good job at it. It took me even longer to feel like I was a strong roleplaying PC.

[samcifer]

I guess I'm not selling it, but I've found the strength of the spell depends on how the DM treats illusions made by PCs.

You have the extreme where no illusion of any kind by a player will ever work. At most you'll get a one round respite long enough for the bad guy to spend its action to realize it's an illusion, if not its move or bonus action, but BBEG's will automatically know it's an illusion for free. The illusion school is useless for a player with such a DM. Such DMs do, unfortunately, exist.

Less extreme are the DMs who let illusions work but can't stand the thought of a player getting away with something. The DM will treat the illusion almost like Wish. The DM will assume you want to use the illusion to Win D&D thus will look for an excuse for the bad guy to realize it's an illusion. Not necessarily an autosuccess or in the same round, but quickly. Anything far fetched in his mind will fail to work automatically. If the player gimps himself and limits his imagination the DM is more likely to let the illusion work as the player intended.

Regular DMs do not assume malice upon PCs. The illusion functions as is, and the DM follows normal rules. He does not metagame for the bad guys. They'll assume the illusion is real unless a logical reason is given otherwise, just as a player would when confronted by a bad guy's illusion. Particular BBEGs might be less susceptible. At worst they'll automatically get an Investigation check without justifiable cause to represent their ingenuity to be a BBEG, but it's a fair die roll using the BBEG's Investigation modifier. The BBEG can fail the roll and act accordingly.

Lenient DMs let anything go. PC illusions always work as the player intended. Bad guys make saving throws and Investigation checks as normal, but once failed the bad guys are full into believing the illusion unless something absolutely obvious justifies another check.

My DM is more openminded. He said that he wants players to 'have fun and be happpy' but is hesitant on things like allowing me to play a warforged wizard with +2 INT and no other stat bonuses based on the quirks of the race not needing sleep, food/drink/breathing, and the +1 AC (using the Unearthed Arcana Warforged from the Eberron UA). He's allowed me to make a middle-aged african american mother for the form my spiritual weapon takes and lets me have her talk smack to the baddies she's attacking (but I cannot control what she says and it's a one-way conversation such as "Mama's gonna whoop yo' a**!"), so he allows for some creativity, but doesn't want any overpowered pcs.

[samcifer]

Listen to advice, don't always follow it unless its the DM or people you play with (who should know the situation better.)

It took me being DM in about 3 campaigns until I started feeling I was doing a good job at it. It took me even longer to feel like I was a strong roleplaying PC.

Admittedly, my experience with playing D&D is very limited. I played 1e or maybe 2e once, then 2e once, then 4e for about a dozen sessions, then this campaign as my first foray into 5e, so I'm still learning the game. I just wanted to play a caster as they have many more options on attacking than martial characters do. I mean there's only so many ways to swing or stab or shoot (since there's been very few battles against special bosses where targetting specific area has been permitted), whereas a caster can shoot fire, lightning, freeze enemies, do AoE damage, teleport, heal, etc. making them much more versatile. I guess I simply lack the kind of creativity an illusionist/enchanter player requires. I just wanna throw Fireballs, Disentegrate, Shatter, or freeze then skip away to my next target(s). >:)

[SharkForce]

honestly, the damage boost that certain archetypes get is largely overblown. i mean, it's there, no question of that, but apart from some edge cases (like magic missile for an evoker) the damage boost is not that big.

normal sorcerer fireballs for average 28 damage. fire dragon sorcerer averages 33. yeah, the fire sorcerer is doing more damage, but it isn't like the regular fireball is a waste of time.

[Xetheral]

Here are some fun things to do with Phantasmal Force:

A medusa near the PCs to make the target choose to close its eyes. A skintight, shrinking metal necklace around the target's neck. A red-hot lump of iron on the target's skin or in the target's stomach. A metal (or wooden, if the target is a vampire) stake slowly pushing its way into the victim's body towards the heart (or eye). A sacrab beetle burrowing under the target's skin and moving toward the heart. A chokepear slowly expanding. A swarm (if the DM rules a swarm counts as a creature) of insects inside the target's lungs. An Intellect Devourer cluching the back (or front) of the target's head, going for the brain. A wasp on the target's eyeball trying to climb up under the eyelid.

All of these should take out of combat a target who isn't actively being attacked, because the target will spend its actions trying to deal with the illusion. Even better, actions futily spent dealing with the illusion aren't being spent investigating the illusion.

For added fun, with Twin Spell, make two targets each see an Intellect Devourer clinging to the back of the other target's head....

[hellgrammite]

Here is an interesting question on Phantasmal Force:

Could you use it to make it appear that one of your enemies is a different creature to the target?

Example: So if your fighting Drow, you make one of its allies appear to be an elf mocking his family with hostility. Considering the illusion is in the targets mind, this would seem to be allowable, no? As long as it fits the space conditions of the spell.

[LeonBH]

Yes it can, if the DM permits it.

[SharkForce]

Here is an interesting question on Phantasmal Force:

Could you use it to make it appear that one of your enemies is a different creature to the target?

Example: So if your fighting Drow, you make one of its allies appear to be an elf mocking his family with hostility. Considering the illusion is in the targets mind, this would seem to be allowable, no? As long as it fits the space conditions of the spell.

generally speaking no. it creates a new thing, which is not the same as modifying something that is already there.

[samcifer]

At this point, I see no point in attempting to use this spell. It has too many restrictions, requires too much knowledge to use, can be defeated too easily and the only appeal to using it at all is that it targets the worst non-wizard stat in the game. I'm just too limited in my imagination to be able to ever use it to effect, so I'll stick to blasting.

Besides, most battles are over in 2 rounds anyways, so focusing on damage will allow me to accomplish something useful so long as I focus on choosing correctly between targeting AC or DEX on my damaging spells and worry only about damage, defense via reactions (Shield spell) and utility out of combat such as healing, removing status effects from poison or disease, and flying.

A perfect example is from a battle against a satyr boss who could Enthral(? I guess), and I got low initiative (Last place). It enslaved our fighter to attack the rest of us and I cast Protection from Evil and Good to ensure I didn't get enslaved as well. The rotation goes through ones and my allies pile on the damage, the boss attacks someone else on his turn. For the second round, the player just before me on the rotation kills him and I'm standing there like an idiot who wasted his only turn and did nothing useful during the fight.

As most battles are over very quickly for us, I need to focus on only doing damage and protecting myself during the enemies' turn if I want to accomplish anything in combat. :(

[Aett_Thorn]

At this point, I see no point in attempting to use this spell. It has too many restrictions, requires too much knowledge to use, can be defeated too easily and the only appeal to using it at all is that it targets the worst non-wizard stat in the game. I'm just too limited in my imagination to be able to ever use it to effect, so I'll stick to blasting.

Besides, most battles are over in 2 rounds anyways, so focusing on damage will allow me to accomplish something useful so long as I focus on choosing correctly between targeting AC or DEX on my damaging spells and worry only about damage, defense via reactions (Shield spell) and utility out of combat such as healing, removing status effects from poison or disease, and flying.

A perfect example is from a battle against a satyr boss who could Enthral(? I guess), and I got low initiative (Last place). It enslaved our fighter to attack the rest of us and I cast Protection from Evil and Good to ensure I didn't get enslaved as well. The rotation goes through ones and my allies pile on the damage, the boss attacks someone else on his turn. For the second round, the player just before me on the rotation kills him and I'm standing there like an idiot who wasted his only turn and did nothing useful during the fight.

As most battles are over very quickly for us, I need to focus on only doing damage and protecting myself during the enemies' turn if I want to accomplish anything in combat. :(

Seems like your DM needs to be giving you tougher battles, then. Battles shouldn't drag on, but constantly taking 2 rounds or less is problematic, and does lead to more and more characters choosing blasting over any semblance of control.

[samcifer]

Seems like your DM needs to be giving you tougher battles, then. Battles shouldn't drag on, but constantly taking 2 rounds or less is problematic, and does lead to more and more characters choosing blasting over any semblance of control.

And as a player, I lack the mindset or understanding that is required to play a controller due to the complex and incredibly hard to understand nature of control spells. :(

Sorry to sound like I'm whining here, but as someone with low self-esteem, finding out I lack the mental capacity to play the kinds of casters I might like is rather depressing. :/

[Aett_Thorn]

And as a player, I lack the mindset or understanding that is required to play a controller due to the complex and incredibly hard to understand nature of control spells. :(

Sorry to sound like I'm whining here, but as someone with low self-esteem, finding out I lack the mental capacity to play the kinds of casters I might like is rather depressing. :/

Not all control spells are like this, though. Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, Web, etc. are all simpler to use and understand. Illusions are all about versatility, and depend on a good DM/Player combo. Illusions might not be your bag of tricks, but I'd say that's true of a lot of players, and not at all indicative of your own abilities. But I doubt that control spells that are actually designed to be control spells aren't the problem. I think that you're just trying to shoehorn Phantasmal Force into being a control spell when that is probably the hardest way to use it.

[ZZTRaider]

I wouldn't extend your issues with Phantasmal Force to control spells in general.

Illusion spells have a reputation for being very DM dependent and excelling primarily with players who can come up with useful and creative applications on the fly. (And just because someone has trouble thinking quickly enough to catch good uses of them in the moment doesn't mean they're unintelligent, either. People's brains work differently.)

[SharkForce]

generally speaking no. it creates a new thing, which is not the same as modifying something that is already there.

so, i've been thinking about this since i posted (but kinda had to leave), and modify is not the correct word for what i wanted to say. phantasmal force is open enough in the description that you may or may not be able to modify depending on what it is you want to do, and how your DM interprets the spell... as long as you're not making anything actually invisible, because the spell cannot make things invisible. so you might be able to add a beard onto someone for example depending on what your DM thinks, but you couldn't make them shorter (or rather, you could, but you'd still also be able to see the taller person).

[samcifer]

I wouldn't extend your issues with Phantasmal Force to control spells in general.

Illusion spells have a reputation for being very DM dependent and excelling primarily with players who can come up with useful and creative applications on the fly. (And just because someone has trouble thinking quickly enough to catch good uses of them in the moment doesn't mean they're unintelligent, either. People's brains work differently.)

Thanks for that. Yeah, I guess illusion spells aren't my thing for stuff like that. Making cover with minor illusion seems to be more akin to my way of thinking, though I managed to once use that to prevent sharkmen from attacking our ship from underwater by creating an illusion of sharp spikes covering the underside of the ship and the sharkman who challenged it got a botch, so we were safe from the other sharkmen as well.