How powerful would this actually be? racial archetype with unchained monk.

[Kahlendrrari]

I know Unchained monk states that no archetypes are compatible with it (as of PF: Unchained printing). But, I was wondering, how powerful would the Deurgar Grey Disciple racial archetype be with the unchained monk, trading the archetype abilities for Ki Powers gained at the associated level?

The only oddity that I see is that the Grey Disciple gets to use some abilities for a level before they are removed by the archetype abilities such as the 4th level ability replacing still mind (gained at level 3), or the 6th level ability removing an ability gained at 5th level.

[thecrimsondawn]

I know Unchained monk states that no archetypes are compatible with it (as of PF: Unchained printing). But, I was wondering, how powerful would the Deurgar Grey Disciple racial archetype be with the unchained monk, trading the archetype abilities for Ki Powers gained at the associated level?

The only oddity that I see is that the Grey Disciple gets to use some abilities for a level before they are removed by the archetype abilities such as the 4th level ability replacing still mind (gained at level 3), or the 6th level ability removing an ability gained at 5th level.

I was allowed to use an archetype for my Unchained Monk to see how things would roll, and I did notice a sizeable increase in combat effectiveness. The high bab, mixed with the style strike and ki power options are several levels above core monk, but no so much better that some core monk archetypes are not on part (MMS and Maneuver Master for example)
High bab means more iterative attacks, more attacks hit sooner, and free flurry attacks. Go over this with your DM to see if it will be allowed, but honestly, unless the other players are all powerful builders, you may find yourself being too strong for the average party balance.

[EldritchWeaver]

I was allowed to use an archetype for my Unchained Monk to see how things would roll, and I did notice a sizeable increase in combat effectiveness. The high bab, mixed with the style strike and ki power options are several levels above core monk, but no so much better that some core monk archetypes are not on part (MMS and Maneuver Master for example)
High bab means more iterative attacks, more attacks hit sooner, and free flurry attacks. Go over this with your DM to see if it will be allowed, but honestly, unless the other players are all powerful builders, you may find yourself being too strong for the average party balance.

Are you seriously suggesting that the UC monk could be too strong of an upgrade? For that to be true, the party must be very weak indeed.

[exelsisxax]

Are you seriously suggesting that the UC monk could be too strong of an upgrade? For that to be true, the party must be very weak indeed.

The 2 guys that taught me D&D, who have been playing for years, think 3.5 monks are stronger than average and that druids are a handicap class. Nobody they played with previously ever voiced concerns that casters were stronger than materials- a pretty large group.

Forumites are an extremely small minority, and almost everyone else can't see the imbalance.

To the OP, balance would be fine. Just check the levels things are gained at and even things out so there aren't a lot of dead or overloaded levels.

[vasilidor]

The druid is one of the most powerful classes in the game. I would like to run a core druid at your table all of the sudden. overrun it with badgers or some such.

[grarrrg]

The only oddity that I see is that the Grey Disciple gets to use some abilities for a level before they are removed by the archetype abilities such as the 4th level ability replacing still mind (gained at level 3), or the 6th level ability removing an ability gained at 5th level.

Buh?
I'm assuming you're talking about Gray Disciple on reg-Monk, otherwise this makes less sense.

A 3rd level (reg)Monk Gray Disciple doesn't get Still Mind and then lose it at 4th.
Likewise, a 5th level doesn't get High Jump only to lose it at 6th.

You never get those abilities at all. A few archetypes trade away things 'now' for bonuses 'later'. It happens.


As for Gray Disciple Un-Monk, I don't see any outright problems. As long as you trade away enough "Ki Power" features at approximate levels it should be fine.

[thecrimsondawn]

Are you seriously suggesting that the UC monk could be too strong of an upgrade? For that to be true, the party must be very weak indeed.

My post was quite neutral on the subject, focusing more on the group at OPs table then on the build itself, because that is a major factor here. There are a lot of X factors too such as what content is allowed. Using only added DSP content, one of my template builds for unchained monk broke the 500 damage barrier with a max damage potential far exceeding that - something that I was unable to reach using core monk.
Having a deep understanding of the game allows players to make things that seem nearly impossible to others until they see it first hand, so I can say with experience that unchained monk in the right hands can be game breaking. Just take care in what you do with it and go over it with your DM to make sure everything seems like a fair trade off and you will be fine.

[EldritchWeaver]

My post was quite neutral on the subject, focusing more on the group at OPs table then on the build itself, because that is a major factor here. There are a lot of X factors too such as what content is allowed. Using only added DSP content, one of my template builds for unchained monk broke the 500 damage barrier with a max damage potential far exceeding that - something that I was unable to reach using core monk.
Having a deep understanding of the game allows players to make things that seem nearly impossible to others until they see it first hand, so I can say with experience that unchained monk in the right hands can be game breaking. Just take care in what you do with it and go over it with your DM to make sure everything seems like a fair trade off and you will be fine.

But that isn't Paizo-only, which is the default assumption, if not contradicted from OP. How bad would it be, if you can't use DSP content? How bad can it be with other martial classes? I do remember a build, that managed a DPR of 2000 with a scythe and Paizo-only, so your DSP-ed UC monk isn't certainly the worst offender. All in all, if you are in a group, where merely switching the chassis from monk to UC monk makes you MVP, then the party members are not qualified to be called "optimized".

[Kahlendrrari]

Buh?
I'm assuming you're talking about Gray Disciple on reg-Monk, otherwise this makes less sense.

A 3rd level (reg)Monk Gray Disciple doesn't get Still Mind and then lose it at 4th.
Likewise, a 5th level doesn't get High Jump only to lose it at 6th.

You never get those abilities at all. A few archetypes trade away things 'now' for bonuses 'later'. It happens.


As for Gray Disciple Un-Monk, I don't see any outright problems. As long as you trade away enough "Ki Power" features at approximate levels it should be fine.

While the other guys in the thread talk about something completely unrelated to the post, I guess I never figured that they NEVER got the class feature... It been a long time since I read over how archetypes work and what happens when. Thanks for the info.

[Psyren]

While not compatible by RAW, power-wise this should be fine on an Unchained chassis. Each of the GD abilities would simply replace a comparably-leveled ki power whenever they would replace a monk class feature like High Jump or Empty Body, and the stuff that isn't ki powers like Still Mind and TotSaM can be replaced normally.