Players are unhappy with my build

[theboss]

Hello there everyone,
So my our group is level 17 by now, we're really getting close to the end of the campign.
Over the years I've got the credit of the guy who make cheesy-like melee characters, In this campign I play a gish of : Fighter, Ranger, Exotic weapon master, Revenant Blade, Hexblade, Crusader and Swordsage (yup, 7 classes total :biggrin:).
One player from my group can't understand the sequence of my character, I mean, what is he supposed to be? Does he have split personalities?
I've tried to explain him my background many times, but he still insists this character is a confused fellow in a big world,and i've told him that's his opinion and I'm cool with it. He asked me to post it here, in this forum, to see if there's also other people who agree with him.
That's not the only reason im posting this thread, I also want your point of view on this character, for example, what made him to took all those classes, why does he have to expirence all those different battle style and etc. Also, if you have time a suitable background would be awesome.

Thank you guys in advance.

[AlanBruce]

Hello there everyone,
So my our group is level 17 by now, we're really getting close to the end of the campign.
Over the years I've got the credit of the guy who make cheesy-like melee characters, In this campign I play a gish of : Fighter, Ranger, Exotic weapon master, Revenant Blade, Hexblade, Crusader and Swordsage (yup, 7 classes total :biggrin:).
One player from my group can't understand the sequence of my character, I mean, what is he supposed to be? Does he have split personalities?
I've tried to explain him my background many times, but he still insists this character is a confused fellow in a big world,and i've told him that's his opinion and I'm cool with it. He asked me to post it here, in this forum, to see if there's also other people who agree with him.
That's not the only reason im posting this thread, I also want your point of view on this character, for example, what made him to took all those classes, why does he have to expirence all those different battle style and etc. Also, if you have time a suitable background would be awesome.

Thank you guys in advance.

In game, as far as the party is concerned, your character is just a warrior- albeit a very well trained one that can use a variety of odd weapons and perform feats in battle that none other in the group probably can duplicate. Maybe with spells, but that's it.

He may also be regarded as a "caster" of sorts because of the Hexblade levels, but chances are you have casters that can scoff at those abilities, so sticking to melee is your best bet.

This character, unless you want him to be, should not suffer from split personalities whatsoever due to his build. The build has little to no effect on how you role play him. Some classes are the exception, but none in your build call out to me as "Split".

As for his origins, well.. you are a 17th level PC. I don't know how long your campaign has been going on, but if it's been for a long time, you should have an idea of why your character chose to multiclass like that. Not needed, mind you- if it makes your fellow players a lot more comfortable knowing OOC why your character has all those levels, write some backstory, but it shouldn't be an issue, really.

[Nifft]

It sounds like the person complaining thinks that CLASS = CHARACTER, while you think that CLASS = TOOLKIT.

If that's the case, you'll get a lot of support on this forum -- a character is defined by personality and mechanics, and the mechanics can come from one class or many classes.


Your character looks a bit like a 1e Ranger -- you'll take any edge you can get, no matter how odd that makes you to other PCs -- keep in mind that 1e Rangers got Druid and Wizard spells, plus a bunch of class features, all designed to fight the monstrous enemies of humanity.

[Blackjackg]

Yeah, what those guys said.

With a few explicit exceptions, classes are not careers. They're mostly abstractions indicating what particular skills you choose to focus on at different stages of your professional development. Changing classes is not the same thing as starting a new job, and having seven classes is not the same thing as having seven part-time jobs.

[ATHATH]

Where's that gitp comic with Miko explaining that she has not taken any levels in Samurai at?

[WesleyVos]

Class =/= Character, and Character =/= class. They are separate issues.

Character is who your character is, how he/she appears to the world, and generally what he/she does.

Class (and the mechanics of class) is how he/she does it.

There's no issue with your build. You're doing it right.


Where's that gitp comic with Miko explaining that she has not taken any levels in Samurai at?

Just for you, here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html).

[Metahuman1]

Ask him if Bruce Lee and Miyamoto Musashi, or most of the Roman Empire's military and martial authority's during there rise and there hayday had multiple personality disorder in his opinion.


If he says No to any of them, tell him "Then neither does mine by your own logic. Now lay off.".



You come across something useful too you in combat. You then proceed to make study of it and invest in developing your ability to use it to at least a basic level of competency. Allowing you to have multiple tricks in any given fight to pull out. Meaning your harder to predict, and thus, more likely to win in a fight.

Winning in a fight is very important to your character, because loosing involves dieing. Most people, knowing that, will actively seek to do whatever they can to avoid it.

Your following the same logic every practitioner of mixed martial arts that isn't doing it exclusively for tournament based combat with Mat's, Referee's and off limits target areas and fighting systems is doing. Anyone who has ever practiced Krav Mega, Sambo, Jeet Kun Do, Kajukembo, Kram Vat (I may have spelled that one wrong, it's an ancient system from Greece that goes back to the says when Athens and Sparta were still freaking rival kingdom's. It deals with armed and unarmed combat, thought is mostly there for the latter, it was a mandatory part of training for the Spartan Army for century's and they started teaching kids to do it young. The name Translates to All Powers, and is considered to be similar to the other listed styles. Also, Spartans were considered so good at it that they were barred from doing it in competitive contexts like The Olympics, because it was known they would always win and maim anyone who even tried against them for life if not just kill them on the spot.) is like your character. Do practicing these fighting systems automatically make you suffer from multiple personality's? Automatically render you merely a tiny deeply confused man in a big, big world?

And there were a lot of European masters whom if you'd like I could start listing for you who were famous for being skilled and accomplished in multiple combat forms from the west. Wrestling, Pudgelisum, dagger fighting, stick fighting, sword work, pole arm fighting.




So, no, your character doesn't have multiple personality disorder. He just has a preference for not being murdered horribly and takes every practical step he can to avoid that.

I.E., he's a sane, rational, practical person, perhaps even more then the character the complaining character is running unless there a straight forward full caster.

[SirNibbles]

Your character wants to be good at hitting stuff with a weapon so he trained in many different ways of hitting things with a weapon. Sounds fine to me.

It's no different from someone who wants to be good at cooking studying French, Italian, Spanish, Chinese, Korean, and Japanese cuisine to get better at cooking overall.

[Mordaedil]

All you've really given us is a list of classes you possess. Can you detail instead what came to pass for how you chose to level (and mark distinction between prestige classes and base classes for those of us without all of the rulebooks) and just kind of outline what you use from the various classes?

That'd go a long way in seeing how your perspectives are informed.

[theboss]

All you've really given us is a list of classes you possess. Can you detail instead what came to pass for how you chose to level (and mark distinction between prestige classes and base classes for those of us without all of the rulebooks) and just kind of outline what you use from the various classes?

That'd go a long way in seeing how your perspectives are informed.

I've been waiting for this question :
Fighter 2, Ranger 2, Exotic weapon master 1( complete warrior), Revenant Blade 5( ebberon), Hexblade 3(complete warrior), crusader 3(tome of battle), Swordsage 1 (ToB)

Why I use each class:
Fighter-for 2 extra neccesry feats.
Ranger- for two weapon fighting
Exotic weapon master- for uncanny blow.
Revenant blade- for legendary force, but mainly all the class features are awesome.
Hexblade- for mettle and better saves.
Crusader and swordage- as someone already stated, to get more tricks in battle. Unpredictable.

[Pugwampy]

Well the sad fact is , 20 level one guys are no match for 1 level 10 guy . Everytime you take a new class you have nerfed your hero by one level . Any fancy power you think you gained is a level 1 trick. If you dont like your hero or feel you are useless , dipping is terrible solution . You dip if you want something , not to make yourself stronger .

This game favours specialists .

[umbergod]

Well the sad fact is , 20 level one guys are no match for 1 level 10 guy . Everytime you take a new class you have nerfed your hero by one level . Any fancy power you think you gained is a level 1 trick. If you dont like your hero or feel you are useless , dipping is terrible solution . You dip if you want something , not to make yourself stronger .

This game favours specialists .

Actually, depending on when he took the crusader and swordsage levels, he could easily have high level maneuvers at his disposal

[Mordaedil]

That's silly Pugwampy. A fighter at level 10 isn't getting anything more special than a level 2 fighter. The specialist focus is only really true for casters, and this martial class build isn't getting anything from specializing in a single class.


I've been waiting for this question :
Fighter 2, Ranger 2, Exotic weapon master 1( complete warrior), Revenant Blade 5( ebberon), Hexblade 3(complete warrior), crusader 3(tome of battle), Swordsage 1 (ToB)

Why I use each class:
Fighter-for 2 extra neccesry feats.
Ranger- for two weapon fighting
Exotic weapon master- for uncanny blow.
Revenant blade- for legendary force, but mainly all the class features are awesome.
Hexblade- for mettle and better saves.
Crusader and swordage- as someone already stated, to get more tricks in battle. Unpredictable.
Well, I was more referring to what went through your characters mentality when you took the classes, but I guess you don't prioritize the roleplaying aspect of the character building. He's still wrong about you being schizophrenic though, a lot of these options carries decent synergy. Heck, the Revenant blade pretty much paints your character and his progress fairly accurately and the rest is just you making more use of the specialization you've already picked up.

The only thing I am curious about is your pick of crusader. Why that instead of 4 levels of swordsage?

[Florian]

Overall, a pretty meaningless pile of mechanics that doesn't convey anything about the actual character it should depict. The real question is how the rest of the players are handling the topic of connecting fluff to crunch and what expectations they have - if "dwarves fighter" is "dwarf" plus "fighter", then yes, that build can be seen as pretty scizo.

[MichielHagen]

Personally, i have always seen any multi-class characters as being a single class, unless the background would actually imply something different.

A single-class ranger gets spellcasting at level 4, how is that any different than a ranger level 3 who starts taking druid levels at level 4? Suddenly you need an explanation why you can cast spells? The same logic can apply to any classes, like a fighter who takes sorcerer levels at some point. Apparently he had magical abilities that started to emerge.

At some point, it might get weird, when you also add Totemist and Binder, but the classes you mentioned, i would not have a problem with that at all.

[theboss]

Well the sad fact is , 20 level one guys are no match for 1 level 10 guy . Everytime you take a new class you have nerfed your hero by one level . Any fancy power you think you gained is a level 1 trick. If you dont like your hero or feel you are useless , dipping is terrible solution . You dip if you want something , not to make yourself stronger .

This game favours specialists .

I disagree, melee characters doesn't have super powerful abilities when they reach high levels. Diping into many classes gives you nice abilites which have impact even on your high levels. A nice example for this is the hexblade, which gains arcane resistance and mettle until Ievel 3. Further, dipping into a new class if you want something is true. But that something makes you stronger. Unless you're a caster and want to become something a little different.
That comparison of yours "20 levels one guys are no match for 1 level 10 guys" is false. Compare 20th level melee character made of 1 class and 20th level melee character made from several classes and you'd be surprised who has the upper hand.
Let's take a look at tome of battle classes, it is right that their higher maneuvers are more powerful than their lower, but that doesn't mean a 17th level pure swordsage/crusader/warblade will lose to a 17th level character with a few levels in those classes (talking about melee characters of course).

[Crake]

I disagree, melee characters doesn't have super powerful abilities when they reach high levels. Diping into many classes gives you nice abilites which have impact even on your high levels. A nice example for this is the hexblade, which gains arcane resistance and mettle until Ievel 3. Further, dipping into a new class if you want something is true. But that something makes you stronger. Unless you're a caster and want to become something a little different.
That comparison of yours "20 levels one guys are no match for 1 level 10 guys" is false. Compare 20th level melee character made of 1 class and 20th level melee character made from several classes and you'd be surprised who has the upper hand.
Let's take a look at tome of battle classes, it is right that their higher maneuvers are more powerful than their lower, but that doesn't mean a 17th level pure swordsage/crusader/warblade will lose to a 17th level character with a few levels in those classes (talking about melee characters of course).

Well, a 17th level initiator has access to 9th level maneuvers, wheras a multiclassed one will not, so that's not exactly the best comparison.

It would be better to compare say, a 17th level barbarian, with a 17th level barbarian/fighter mix with some ACFs tossed about. Many of the benefits of barbarian are frontloaded, especially in some of the ACFs and uncanny dodge, fighter likewise has frontloaded benefits in that it's got 2 feats in 2 levels, then grab a prestige class that matches what you wanna do.

[WesleyVos]

Personally, i have always seen any multi-class characters as being a single class, unless the background would actually imply something different.

This. So much this.

"Class" is an artificial game construct that has no meaning in the world in which the PCs live. Whatever mechanical choices you make, they are part of the PC's life and arise from his or her training and abilities.

For example, I am a lawyer and pastor. I also have a good background in history, I coach softball, teach debate, play (and DM) D&D games, and played baseball through high school. What "class" am I? Answer: I'm not a class. I'm an individual who happens to have skills in several different areas. It's the same with your character. They are a person with many different types of combat skills. Nothing wrong with that at all.

[Acanous]

That's silly Pugwampy. A fighter at level 10 isn't getting anything more special than a level 2 fighter. The specialist focus is only really true for casters, and this martial class build isn't getting anything from specializing in a single class.


Well, I was more referring to what went through your characters mentality when you took the classes, but I guess you don't prioritize the roleplaying aspect of the character building. He's still wrong about you being schizophrenic though, a lot of these options carries decent synergy. Heck, the Revenant blade pretty much paints your character and his progress fairly accurately and the rest is just you making more use of the specialization you've already picked up.

The only thing I am curious about is your pick of crusader. Why that instead of 4 levels of swordsage?

This build is a bit chaotic. I see some of the issues your buddy may be trying to get across. Without knowing what feats you took, it really does look like you might have nerfed yourself.

Two-weapon fighting does not work with tome of battle maneuvers. There are a few exceptions, but unless you're doing this for stances and boosts, those ranger levels don't sync with the later ToB classes.
Further, unless your dex sucks, you could have just grabbed 2 more fighter levels for the TWF feat. The ranger bit there isn't doing you any favours... unless you needed Survival? Even so, Barbarian would serve you better than Ranger. (Spirit lion totem, Whirling Frenzy, etc.)

Then you go into Exotic Weapon Master, supposedly for Uncanny blow- which also does not function with two weapon fighting. And required significant skill point investment to unlock. Honestly not a bad pick if you had the extra skill points, but it flat requires either two feats (If nonhuman) or one feat but you can't be human, and both ways a bunch of skill points you really can't spare. It's decent for a dip if you have INT of 12+, or are a barbarian. Barbarians can use the hell out of this on the way to Frenzied Berserker. Pairs well with Power attack and rage, very nice for a 1 level dip. ****ty about those prerequisites but if you're going to be an orc barbarian might be worth it.

Then you go Revenant Blade and look at that
Race
Orc or half-orc

I'm seeing where you're going but it's like you forgot to be a barbarian.
Skills
Knowledge (history) 2 ranks, Stealth 5 ranks

Feats
Orc Axemaster, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (orc double axe)

Ok, so you're chaining prerequisites to fill multiple prestige classes. I can see the build now, but those skill requirements, ugh.

Suggestion; Drop Fighter from the build. Use Flaws to gain Weapon Focus (Orc double axe) at level one.

Ranger stuff: This PrC states it advances existing ranger features but does not grant them. You do not gain an animal companion or spells from this PrC, because you lack them as a ranger. That's another synergy break. Dropping Fighter lets you hit 4 Ranger and unlock those abilities, which will help.
Legendary Force: Does work with Uncanny Blow, but that's a huge investment for the payoff. Also a nitpick now that I'm looking in detail, but EWM requires 6 BAB. You have it entered at lv 5 in your build outline. Revenant blade you can do at lv 6 entry, but you need to be lv 6 prior to taking the first EWM level.
You are early-entrying both classes. There are ways to do this that involve retraining or other shennanigans, but unless you've partaken in those shennanigans you are cheating.

Hexblade: Mettle is good, but you're deliberately missing out on casting, familiar, etc. A 3 level dip for Mettle isn't worth it- you can get it on a ring. Put those levels into 2 (Barbarian) and toss them prior to the PrCs and you'll get significantly better mileage. Ranger 4/Barb 2/EWM 1/Revenant Blade 5, into Frenzied Berserker and you get some Intimidate synergy, and later in some crazy **** with Deathless Frenzy and Improved Power Attack. Oh yes, you're making that 3 for 1 trade right away, all day, and adding your STRx2 to damage. Which is getting pumped by Rage and Frenzy. Good times.
Oh hey, and it synergyzes with your later levels in Crusader. Because ha ha ha smack with a maneuver and then cleave. Cleave all day.

So yeah. You've got some noncomplimentary build choices going on, and you're actually not meeting prerequisites you need to be meeting.
Your character can use some fine tuning, so he's correct there, but his argument about why needs some refinement. As does your character.

[theboss]

This build is a bit chaotic. I see some of the issues your buddy may be trying to get across. Without knowing what feats you took, it really does look like you might have nerfed yourself.

Two-weapon fighting does not work with tome of battle maneuvers. There are a few exceptions, but unless you're doing this for stances and boosts, those ranger levels don't sync with the later ToB classes.
Further, unless your dex sucks, you could have just grabbed 2 more fighter levels for the TWF feat. The ranger bit there isn't doing you any favours... unless you needed Survival? Even so, Barbarian would serve you better than Ranger. (Spirit lion totem, Whirling Frenzy, etc.)

Then you go into Exotic Weapon Master, supposedly for Uncanny blow- which also does not function with two weapon fighting. And required significant skill point investment to unlock. Honestly not a bad pick if you had the extra skill points, but it flat requires either two feats (If nonhuman) or one feat but you can't be human, and both ways a bunch of skill points you really can't spare. It's decent for a dip if you have INT of 12+, or are a barbarian. Barbarians can use the hell out of this on the way to Frenzied Berserker. Pairs well with Power attack and rage, very nice for a 1 level dip. ****ty about those prerequisites but if you're going to be an orc barbarian might be worth it.

Then you go Revenant Blade and look at that
Race
Orc or half-orc

I'm seeing where you're going but it's like you forgot to be a barbarian.
Skills
Knowledge (history) 2 ranks, Stealth 5 ranks

Feats
Orc Axemaster, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (orc double axe)

Ok, so you're chaining prerequisites to fill multiple prestige classes. I can see the build now, but those skill requirements, ugh.

Suggestion; Drop Fighter from the build. Use Flaws to gain Weapon Focus (Orc double axe) at level one.

Ranger stuff: This PrC states it advances existing ranger features but does not grant them. You do not gain an animal companion or spells from this PrC, because you lack them as a ranger. That's another synergy break. Dropping Fighter lets you hit 4 Ranger and unlock those abilities, which will help.
Legendary Force: Does work with Uncanny Blow, but that's a huge investment for the payoff. Also a nitpick now that I'm looking in detail, but EWM requires 6 BAB. You have it entered at lv 5 in your build outline. Revenant blade you can do at lv 6 entry, but you need to be lv 6 prior to taking the first EWM level.
You are early-entrying both classes. There are ways to do this that involve retraining or other shennanigans, but unless you've partaken in those shennanigans you are cheating.

Hexblade: Mettle is good, but you're deliberately missing out on casting, familiar, etc. A 3 level dip for Mettle isn't worth it- you can get it on a ring. Put those levels into 2 (Barbarian) and toss them prior to the PrCs and you'll get significantly better mileage. Ranger 4/Barb 2/EWM 1/Revenant Blade 5, into Frenzied Berserker and you get some Intimidate synergy, and later in some crazy **** with Deathless Frenzy and Improved Power Attack. Oh yes, you're making that 3 for 1 trade right away, all day, and adding your STRx2 to damage. Which is getting pumped by Rage and Frenzy. Good times.
Oh hey, and it synergyzes with your later levels in Crusader. Because ha ha ha smack with a maneuver and then cleave. Cleave all day.

So yeah. You've got some noncomplimentary build choices going on, and you're actually not meeting prerequisites you need to be meeting.
Your character can use some fine tuning, so he's correct there, but his argument about why needs some refinement. As does your character.

Spirit barbarians are in ban. As does frienzed besreker. Evasion ring is in ban and also mettle ring doesn't exist. Alot of classes and books are in ban. I went through hell so that my DM will allow Revenant blade.
I tried to make the best with what I can.
And I still charge and do 210 points of damage.

[theboss]

That's silly Pugwampy. A fighter at level 10 isn't getting anything more special than a level 2 fighter. The specialist focus is only really true for casters, and this martial class build isn't getting anything from specializing in a single class.


Well, I was more referring to what went through your characters mentality when you took the classes, but I guess you don't prioritize the roleplaying aspect of the character building. He's still wrong about you being schizophrenic though, a lot of these options carries decent synergy. Heck, the Revenant blade pretty much paints your character and his progress fairly accurately and the rest is just you making more use of the specialization you've already picked up.

The only thing I am curious about is your pick of crusader. Why that instead of 4 levels of swordsage?

Because of BAB and maneuvers that aren't available to swordsage. Also he gets charisma modifier to will save.
I have the highest saves in the group in every save . 32 fort, 34 will and 17 reflax.

[Florian]

@theboss:

Mechanics. Yeah. But you still haven't told us one bit about what and who your character actually is.

[WesleyVos]

Spirit barbarians are in ban. As does frienzed besreker. Evasion ring is in ban and also mettle ring doesn't exist. Alot of classes and books are in ban. I went through hell so that my DM will allow Revenant blade.
I tried to make the best with what I can.
And I still charge and do 210 points of damage.

So your DM is a jerk for taking away the things that make mundanes nice. In this case, build a full caster and break the game. Maybe next time he'll let your mundanes have nice things.

[MichielHagen]

Because of BAB and maneuvers that aren't available to swordsage. Also he gets charisma modifier to will save.
I have the highest saves in the group in every save . 32 fort, 34 will and 17 reflax.

Not sure if we should discuss optimal class choices and such, since that is not the issue at hand as far as i understood, but:

Crusader 3/Swordsage 1
Swordsage 4
They have the same BAB.

Getting multi-classing is (most of the time) good for your saves indeed.

[Vhaidara]

Not sure if we should discuss optimal class choices and such, since that is not the issue at hand as far as i understood, but:

Crusader 3/Swordsage 1
Swordsage 4
They have the same BAB.

Getting multi-classing is (most of the time) good for your saves indeed.

Crusader has the BAB earlier, which may be relevant for prereqs on feats. Plus, as he mentioned, crusader has a different set of disciplines to choose maneuvers from, a mechanically stronger recovery (though I find it distasteful due to randomness, the economy on it is stronger), and brings his Cha mod into his Will saves, which is apparently a significant amount (can't be sure without posted stats)

@theboss mechanics != fluff, though if you've given other reasons to support a split personality there might be that of course.

[theboss]

@theboss:

Mechanics. Yeah. But you still haven't told us one bit about what and who your character actually is.

My character is a chaotic evil valenar elf warrior who seek fame and power. All his life he is dreaming to become that adventurer who everyone has heard about.
He started his career as a simple fighter, working as a city guard. He speciazled in a specific weapon called valenar double scimiter. Later on, he was discharged from the army because he killed several guards who mocked him and his earlier life. He went to the forest and connected to his wild instincs (ranger). Then, he joined a group of unique people who master unique weapons.
After that, he went to his home town to see what change and how can he help. While doing that, he discovered the group who protects the city. The Revenant blades. He felt very connected to this battle style and his master. After a year or two, his master vanished and he became the master of the group. When he decided he had enough he joined a group of adventurers that were staying for a night in his town in order to find out what happened to his master. While exploring the world with his group, they came across a very powerful fighter who cursed his foes. He got interested in this battle style and started earning experience to become this fighter. When his group found out he was evil they tried to kill him but he managed to escape. (Now the campign starts. At level 10). Wandering through the world he met a few other adventurers while they fought a group of rogues, he helped them and joined them. After a While,(yes, he forgot about his master). He became a beilver and started focusing on his inner power that lies within him (crusader). In one of their journeys he died by a death giant and he came to a conclusion that there's no gods.(When he died, instead going to heaven, he was trapped in the death giant domain.)
But he still knew there's inner power in him, so he focused the power to a different way. A rogueish way.
That's it so far.

[Mordaedil]

Are there multiple Revnanent blade classes or something? My resource says something about being an elf. Exotic weapon master requiring rage and something like 3 exotic weapon proficiencies, which seems odd.

As for that character, the only thing I find odd is that he was chaotic evil, yet seem more than willing to work with people and somehow got discharged from the army for murder rather than executed. Seems like a minor disconnect there, mildening circumstances or did he get "discharged" and just escape from prison? Also, I believe the crusader is a belief in an external power, not internal, but you can fluff it if you are just doing it for the maneuvers, but I'd just ask the DM if he could make the maneuvers open to either class rather than multiclass awkwardly.

[Sam K]

What do the weapon masters of legend and history, the best MMA fighters and the most efficient military special forces units all have in common?

Cross training.

Specialists thrive in very controlled environments. In unpredictable environments, you're better served having a wide set of useful non-specialist skills tacked on to a good chassis. Adventuring is the very definition of an unpredictable environment: in fact, I would say that the single classed fighter is the one with mental issues (probably a serious case of OCD, self contempt and a tendency towards suicide by NPC), because he doesn't pick up the useful tools that are available to him.

That being said, your build does seem overly complicated. Since ToB seems to be allowed, I would just go with a base of warblade with some dips in crusader and (unarmed) swordsage. Possibly master of nine if you feel like being an insane initiator. You can sprinkle on barb or fighter if you want to, but I think the benefits of more initiator stuff is greater than the tricks you get from ranger or hexblade - you can use pounce (from tigers claw) and shock trooper to charge for silly amounts anyway. But that's a side note, the point remains that getting pretty good at a variety of things is the best way for mundanes to go: only full casters really benefit from specialisation and that's because their specialisation is "do everything" anyway.

[theboss]

So your DM is a jerk for taking away the things that make mundanes nice. In this case, build a full caster and break the game. Maybe next time he'll let your mundanes have nice things.

There's also alot spellcasting classes and PrC on a ban. He wants balanced characters, not broken ones. It is not fun and i agree.
Getting pounce at level 1 is broken. If I had it. I could 1 shot the tarrasque at level 15.
Also frienzed Beserker is also a broken class that can 1 vs 1 every melee character in d&d 3.5.

[Deophaun]

Two-weapon fighting does not work with tome of battle maneuvers. There are a few exceptions, but unless you're doing this for stances and boosts, those ranger levels don't sync with the later ToB classes.
This is an odd sentiment. Those boosts and stances are huge. The Tiger Claw discipline is all about TWFing. And the standard action strikes give you utility for those times when you cannot full attack. I've made plenty of TWFers using Warblade as the primary and never found it to be a bad match.

Getting pounce at level 1 is broken. If I had it. I could 1 shot the tarrasque at level 15.
So, if you got pounce at level one, you could kill a notoriously easy monster in a single round 14 levels later.

Pounce at level 1 is pretty much useless as you don't get iteratives until 6. You need to be a TWFer or rely on natural attacks to take advantage that early. All that pounce at level 1 really does is make it easy to add to a build.

[Telonius]

Are there multiple Revnanent blade classes or something? My resource says something about being an elf. Exotic weapon master requiring rage and something like 3 exotic weapon proficiencies, which seems odd.


Looks like there's a Pathfinder homebrew here (http://www.mit.edu/~locutus/DnD/classes/RevenantBlade.html) (given the "stealth" skill and odd named feats).

[Ignimortis]

There's also alot spellcasting classes and PrC on a ban. He wants balanced characters, not broken ones. It is not fun and i agree.
Getting pounce at level 1 is broken. If I had it. I could 1 shot the tarrasque at level 15.
Also frienzed Beserker is also a broken class that can 1 vs 1 every melee character in d&d 3.5.

Unless Natural Spell is banned, you can still break anything with a single-classed Druid build. It's that strong of a class. Frenzied Berserker is one of the few good melee prestige classes in 3.5. Most of the others just give limited spellcasting (Runescarred Berserker/Champion of Gwynharwyf (sp?) for Barbarians, Sword of the Arcane Order for Rangers).
Damage is not end-all, be-all - it's certainly nice to oneshot anything on a charge, but you can't charge everything or even deal with most problems through straight HP damage. However, if your campaign only requires damage from you to succeed - then disregard whatever I said before this sentence :)

[Nifft]

@theboss:

Mechanics. Yeah. But you still haven't told us one bit about what and who your character actually is.

Note the thread title -- the other players apparently are not complaining about the character's personality, only about the build.

Therefore, the poster is here talking about the build.

[karinrin55]

Note the thread title -- the other players apparently are not complaining about the character's personality, only about the build.

Therefore, the poster is here talking about the build.


However, if your campaign only requires damage from you to succeed - then disregard whatever I said before this sentence :)

Hello everyone, I happen to be one of the players in theboss' group. This has turned to a build advice thread, as said by the first quote it was supposed to be about the character's personality in role-playing.
Since I have no problem with his role play (only with the fact that I'm a 17th level full cleric with 30 WIS score and a lower will save that my fellow Multi-class friend here [jk I am strong enough in other aspects]) I can say that I understand, as objectively as possible, where other players can get confused.
After I saw theboss' explanation through his backstory and reasoning after IC incidents, I see his character in a new light. Because we mostly handle the campaign's storyline more than in game roleplaying (we have a lot on our plate in many different places in the world), the continuity and character development beyond our own characters' can be blurred.
As for the second qoute, he is our main and best damage output character. I am a full Cleric of Wee Jas (for lack of an arcane spellcaster), we had a Bear Barbarian that now plays a full Druid (both more battle control oriented rather that damage) and a sort of Psy-worrior (he is an NPC ally played by the DM) that is part utility part damage.
So in conclusion, thank you all for the build thread but that wasn't the case. I'm sure the group will get the advancements of theboss' character better now.
P.S-The Revenant Blade is from Player's Guide to Eberron

[Nifft]

Revenant Blade always seemed like a poor imitation of the ToB's Eternal Blade, which you can get into as an Elf with either Warblade 10 or Crusader 10.

It's very similar in flavor, at least, though the Eternal Blade seems stronger due to advancing maneuvers.

[Remuko]

Hello everyone, I happen to be one of the players in theboss' group. This has turned to a build advice thread, as said by the first quote it was supposed to be about the character's personality in role-playing.
Since I have no problem with his role play (only with the fact that I'm a 17th level full cleric with 30 WIS score and a lower will save that my fellow Multi-class friend here [jk I am strong enough in other aspects]) I can say that I understand, as objectively as possible, where other players can get confused.
After I saw theboss' explanation through his backstory and reasoning after IC incidents, I see his character in a new light. Because we mostly handle the campaign's storyline more than in game roleplaying (we have a lot on our plate in many different places in the world), the continuity and character development beyond our own characters' can be blurred.
As for the second qoute, he is our main and best damage output character. I am a full Cleric of Wee Jas (for lack of an arcane spellcaster), we had a Bear Barbarian that now plays a full Druid (both more battle control oriented rather that damage) and a sort of Psy-worrior (he is an NPC ally played by the DM) that is part utility part damage.
So in conclusion, thank you all for the build thread but that wasn't the case. I'm sure the group will get the advancements of theboss' character better now.
P.S-The Revenant Blade is from Player's Guide to Eberron
Here have a link for good mesure: *scrubbed*

You might want to remove that link at the bottom of your post. Im pretty sure thats not an authorized site and posting links to forbidden material can get you in trouble.

[Epic Legand]

The OP is asking for help with solving a social issue with his fellow gamers, not a build. Weather his build is optimized or not is not the question. Mr cleric ( Karinrin55) , you might be wondering why he has a better will save...He might ask why you can cast MIRACLE. You have a teir 1 class at the top end of power. You can solve basically any issues your team has. You need almost zero system mastery to get this, he focused on a build that gives him better saves, and a few toolbox tricks. He clearly can charge and do damage. At level 17, that should not be the only challenges you face. Flying Dragon ? Hoard of 1,000 goblins ? Find the magic gem in a pile of thousands of gems? Get across the planet in less then 6 months ? There are about a million things you do better then him. Point at someone and say "die" ?
As to the question about his personality, I feel that's pure bull****. My personal career is a crazy patchwork. I still have a solid personality, with friends I have maintained for over 37 years, I have been married for 21 years, yet a review of my work history would look crazy to you. Its a GAME, played for fun. If his build is not illegal by the house rules of the DM, then questions about his motivations are pure bull****. Imagine if I was in your game and complained about your devotion to your god ? "Why do you worship XXX?" He's a bad god, or an unworthy one" That would be insulting, and pointless.
In real life I have Owned a Pizza Shop, Owned a Liquor Store, Owned a Carwash, been a corporate manager... but only found real satisfaction as a professional cosplayer. I build giant robots for a living. I went to collage for economics and psychology, I am about as unoptimised as you could get. Also, I have achieved success in my chosen field...Questions about my personality and motivations could never be answered by an outside view of my job history. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[karinrin55]

Mr cleric ( Karinrin55) , you might be wondering why he has a better will save...He might ask why you can cast MIRACLE. You have a teir 1 class at the top end of power. You can solve basically any issues your team has. You need almost zero system mastery to get this, he focused on a build that gives him better saves, and a few toolbox tricks. He clearly can charge and do damage.across the planet in less then 6 months ? There are about a million things you do better then him. Point at someone and say "die" ?

First of all Ms. Cleric, no hard feelings it's hard to tell in a forum.
Second of all, as I said in my own comment I was just kidding about the will save, no need to bash me. I am well aware of my strong points and how and why they differ from theboss', he has high saving throws because he is incapable of casting appropriate spell to negate the situation in which he has to use them. Both our characters benefit the team in different aspects of gameplay, whether in or out of combat.
Thirdly (don't know if that's a thing), the fact that a full cleric has a lot of power in such late stages of the game doesn't affect the point. We are both strong in our own way, I cannot hold a candle against theboss' 1v1 damage and he cannot hope to be as versatile and control a battlefield (other than by clearing it) as effectively as I do. We compliment each other and complete one another with strengthening our team so it can reach an end goal. Plus, playing a full spellcaster at such a high level isn't as simple as you make it. Both me and the Druid spend hours in search of spells that would make us both effective and versatile enough to fit in any situation. And because I immensely enjoy playing a full divine caster doesn't mean I do not appreciate or even enjoy playing a multiclass character with other abilities every once in a while, just not this campaign.
Lastly, I didn't have a problem with his characteristics from the start and explained why others might have concerns. I also mentioned how he solved the argument by giving specific reasoning behind all the different classes with in-game events that changed his character's POV on the world and of himself.

[Nifft]

Hello Ms. Cleric, just my opinion but Wee Jas is an awesome god. :smallcool:



Thirdly (don't know if that's a thing), the fact that a full cleric has a lot of power in such late stages of the game doesn't affect the point. We are both strong in our own way, I cannot hold a candle against theboss' 1v1 damage and he cannot hope to be as versatile and control a battlefield (other than by clearing it) as effectively as I do. We compliment each other and complete one another with strengthening our team so it can reach an end goal. Plus, playing a full spellcaster at such a high level isn't as simple as you make it. Both me and the Druid spend hours in search of spells that would make us both effective and versatile enough to fit in any situation. And because I immensely enjoy playing a full divine caster doesn't mean I do not appreciate or even enjoy playing a multiclass character with other abilities every once in a while, just not this campaign. There's an amazing Druid guide here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook -- it has a good spell list discussion section.

I don't personally know much about Cleric optimization but I do know that they appear to be amazingly strong when properly built. Have you checked here for Cleric handbooks? http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=399.0

Also, Wee Jas has a really strong prestige class in ToB, which might be fun for a future character: Crusader / Cleric / Ruby Knight Vindicator




Lastly, I didn't have a problem with his characteristics from the start and explained why others might have concerns. I also mentioned how he solved the argument by giving specific reasoning behind all the different classes with in-game events that changed his character's POV on the world and of himself. Cool.

So... he's been directed here to the forum to ask us stuff, and now you're here too.

Was there anything we haven't yet answered in a satisfactory way?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci (Italian: [leoˈnardo di ˌsɛr ˈpjɛːro da (v)ˈvintʃi] (About this sound listen); 15 April 1452 – 2 May 1519), more commonly Leonardo da Vinci or simply Leonardo, was an Italian Renaissance polymath whose areas of interest included invention, painting, sculpting, architecture, science, music, mathematics, engineering, literature, anatomy, geology, astronomy, botany, writing, history, and cartography. He has been variously called the father of palaeontology, ichnology, and architecture, and is widely considered one of the greatest painters of all time. Sometimes credited with the inventions of the parachute, helicopter and tank,he epitomised the Renaissance humanist ideal.

Many historians and scholars regard Leonardo as the prime exemplar of the "Universal Genius" or "Renaissance Man", an individual of "unquenchable curiosity" and "feverishly inventive imagination", and he is widely considered one of the most diversely talented individuals ever to have lived. According to art historian Helen Gardner, the scope and depth of his interests were without precedent in recorded history, and "his mind and personality seem to us superhuman, while the man himself mysterious and remote". Marco Rosci notes that while there is much speculation regarding his life and personality, his view of the world was logical rather than mysterious, and that the empirical methods he employed were unorthodox for his time.

Born out of wedlock to a notary, Piero da Vinci, and a peasant woman, Caterina, in Vinci in the region of Florence, Leonardo was educated in the studio of the renowned Florentine painter Andrea del Verrocchio. Much of his earlier working life was spent in the service of Ludovico il Moro in Milan. He later worked in Rome, Bologna and Venice, and he spent his last years in France at the home awarded to him by Francis I of France.

Leonardo was, and is, renowned primarily as a painter. Among his works, the Mona Lisa is the most famous and most parodied portrait and The Last Supper the most reproduced religious painting of all time. Leonardo's drawing of the Vitruvian Man is also regarded as a cultural icon, being reproduced on items as varied as the euro coin, textbooks, and T-shirts.

A painting by Leonardo, Salvator Mundi, sold for a world record $450.3 million at a Christie's auction in New York, 15 November 2017, the highest price ever paid for a work of art. Perhaps fifteen of his paintings have survived. Nevertheless, these few works, together with his notebooks, which contain drawings, scientific diagrams, and his thoughts on the nature of painting, compose a contribution to later generations of artists rivalled only by that of his contemporary, Michelangelo.

Leonardo is revered for his technological ingenuity. He conceptualised flying machines, a type of armoured fighting vehicle, concentrated solar power, an adding machine, and the double hull. Relatively few of his designs were constructed or even feasible during his lifetime, as the modern scientific approaches to metallurgy and engineering were only in their infancy during the Renaissance. Some of his smaller inventions, however, such as an automated bobbin winder and a machine for testing the tensile strength of wire, entered the world of manufacturing unheralded. A number of Leonardo's most practical inventions are nowadays displayed as working models at the Museum of Vinci. He made substantial discoveries in anatomy, civil engineering, geology, optics, and hydrodynamics, but he did not publish his findings and they had no direct influence on later science.Can we then assume Leonardo da Vinci was a was a poor, confused, schizophrenic man lost in a big world?

I have a level 21 gestalt character with 39 classes altogether -- only one class has more than one level, and it has three. He's a Renaissance Man. He does a LOT of stuff, and he's quite good at all of it. He's not schizophrenic; he's talented.

[Fizban]

I've been waiting for this question :
Fighter 2, Ranger 2, Exotic weapon master 1( complete warrior), Revenant Blade 5( ebberon), Hexblade 3(complete warrior), crusader 3(tome of battle), Swordsage 1 (ToB)

Why I use each class:
Fighter-for 2 extra neccesry feats.
Ranger- for two weapon fighting
Exotic weapon master- for uncanny blow.
Revenant blade- for legendary force, but mainly all the class features are awesome.
Hexblade- for mettle and better saves.
Crusader and swordage- as someone already stated, to get more tricks in battle. Unpredictable.

What I'm seeing here is that you're playing a Revenant Blade- that's the one that gets the most attention in your description. Since it's a prestige class, you can call yourself a Revenant Blade no matter what the rest of your build is. This Revenant Blade happens to be a dabbler in exotic and supernatural fighting styles.

Of course as a 5 level prestige class, if you're not playing in Eberron then the title of Revenant Blade doesn't really mean much, and since it can't take the majority of your levels it won't look like the major focus to anyone not familiar with it.

I would suggest explaining it in those terms: Revenant Blade is a ranger-ish class and you wanted a bit more fighting than pure ranger, so you entered as fighter/ranger with a level of exotic weapon master because you could, then once you finished Revenant Blade you started dabbling in more supernatural combat styles. The widly different mechanics clearly mark the character out as a dabbler of some sort, no amount of finagling can dispel that, but there's no disconnect when you start dabbling after becoming a master of your primary goal (Revenant Blade).


However, noticing that one of the other players has posted and mentioned your will save is improbably high- I would seriously recommend you get your DM to enact proper multiclassing rules for base saves. The starting +2 applying multiple times is basically a bug and you know perfectly well that you don't need inflated saves to make up for the rest of your build when you're not losing any BAB and all of your combat stuff synergizes perfectly.

[Epic Legand]

karinrin55, sorry if I came across as to aggressive. I may be overly sensitive as I too have had to explain my builds on more then one occasion. Not because they were illegal, but because one member of our group feels multiclassing is "bad", or unfair. As his preference is teir 1 casters, I may have projected a bit.

[karinrin55]

Epic Legand
All good man, I understand your sensibility. It's hard being a multiclass character.
No hard feelings.
But some people prefer something simpler, something that isn't so hard to optimize.
I am the "noob" of our group (even though I have been playing for more than 5 years now) and it's hard for me to optimize multiclass characters so I go simple, one versatile class per campaign until I feel confident enough to build a strong multiclass one.