Pam + tunnel fighter + scout = profit?

[strangebloke]

So, the idea is in the title, sorta.

Vhuman with 3 levels of scout and a few levels in Paladin or fighter. Pick up PAM and tunnel fighter. Wield a polearm with reach.

You run up, hit enemy, pull back. You're hitting from ten feet so no aoo. Spend bonus action on tunnel fighter.

Enemy comes at you. You bop him (costing no reaction), but he keeps coming. He closes with you, you use your reaction to move away. He pursues you, you hit him a third time.

Obviously this isn't a good build. I'm just trying to find a way to consistently proc tunnel fighter often enough to make the thing worth it outside of niche applications. The other idea I had was basically using the mantle of inspiration bard ability to move yourself in the way of a different group of baddies. Misty step works for that as well, although it's costly.

[Platypusbill]

So, the idea is in the title, sorta.
Enemy comes at you. You bop him (costing no reaction), but he keeps coming. He closes with you, you use your reaction to move away. He pursues you, you hit him a third time.

The Scout's ability to move as a reaction triggers when an enemy ends their turn next to you, so this doesn't work.

[strangebloke]

The Scout's ability to move as a reaction triggers when an enemy ends their turn next to you, so this doesn't work.

Annoying.

Thanks.

It's quite difficult to cause more than one AOO in a round. I thought about relentless vengeance with tunnel fighter, but that doesn't work either.

[MrWesson22]

PAM + tunnel fighter + sentinel

[Kylar]

PAM + tunnel fighter + sentinel is broken, but if any stupid player comes with it at you, then just make him fight a ton of kobold archers & wizards.

Who needs to trigger all those OAs when you can just shoot?:smallsmile:

[Mikal]

PAM + tunnel fighter + sentinel is broken, but if any stupid player comes with it at you, then just make him fight a ton of kobold archers & wizards.

Who needs to trigger all those OAs when you can just shoot?:smallsmile:

Yup, that's right. Cause the DMs job is to always negate any abilities or strengths the PCs have so they're useless.

Or you know, you could challenge them in less heavy handed ways. Or say Tunnel Fighter isn't allowed since it's UA or you don't like.

[MaxWilson]

Yup, that's right. Cause the DMs job is to always negate any abilities or strengths the PCs have so they're useless.

Or you know, you could challenge them in less heavy handed ways. Or say Tunnel Fighter isn't allowed since it's UA or you don't like.

Or challenge them with a horde of orcs so he gets to feel awesome when he defeats them all. (The Fireball wizard will probably feel awesome too.)

[strangebloke]

Or challenge them with a horde of orcs so he gets to feel awesome when he defeats them all. (The Fireball wizard will probably feel awesome too.)

What I was wondering is, is there any way to make it awesome without the aforementioned horde of orcs.

I just can't think of a way to get it to proc multiple times on a single target.

Well, I can, but it requires readying an ability to move as a reaction. "Once he closes with me, I want to pull back." Obviously not worth the cost under most circumstances.

[Mikal]

What I was wondering is, is there any way to make it awesome without the aforementioned horde of orcs.

I just can't think of a way to get it to proc multiple times on a single target.

Well, I can, but it requires readying an ability to move as a reaction. "Once he closes with me, I want to pull back." Obviously not worth the cost under most circumstances.

Well Tunnel Fighter does let you use your reaction on someone who moves more than 10 ft. while within your reach, so technically (if you don't have sentinel and stop their movement), if someone goes into range, gets hit, and continues moving can get hit again with the reaction. Note this is specifically not an OA.

However, realistically, you're probably going to see less "hit one guy multiple times" and more "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" with this type of build.

Personally, I think War Caster might be better then Sentinel because of this. Turn on Tunnel Fighter, and Booming Blade anyone who comes into range for extra tasty damage that forces them to stop themselves, or take even more extra tasty damage.

Of course you need to get Booming Blade as well, so just need to factor that in.
Now if only any PAM weapons were finesse for SA damage...

[JMS]

What about Vengeance Paladin's lv. 7 Feature. that can be fun. the OP's idea actually works if you do it, but why worry about them closing with you, when you can cast command(flee) on them, and then keep hiting them for say, (1d8+str mod damage)x(foe speed/5).

[strangebloke]

What about Vengeance Paladin's lv. 7 Feature. that can be fun. the OP's idea actually works if you do it, but why worry about them closing with you, when you can cast command(flee) on them, and then keep hiting them for say, (1d8+str mod damage)x(foe speed/5).

"When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, you can move up to half your speed immediately after the attack and as part of the same reaction. "

That would be so cool but unfortunately I don't think it works.

"When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, you can move up to half your speed immediately after the attack and as part of the same reaction."

So the attacks you make with tunnel fighter are opportunity attacks, but are not part of a reaction. So, uh, gray area? You could argue that relentless avenger is "part of the same reaction, which is in this case, no reaction." Or you could say that relentless avenger "requires a reaction that it can be a part of."

depends on how you sell it to your DM.

This is how it would work out, if it works:

Bonus Action: Tunnel Fighter
Action: Command(Flee)
*on his turn, enemy uses the dash action to run.* (command(flee) states 'fastest available means' so no disengage)
Tunnel Fighter Reaction: AoO + relentless avenger when he leaves threatened area.
Tunnel Fighter Reaction: AoO + relentless avenger when he leaves threatened area.
Tunnel Fighter Reaction: AoO + relentless avenger when he leaves threatened area.
etc.

Since this allows for multiple procs of relentless avenger, you could hit him a number of times equal to double his movement speed divided by five.

so probably for the best to say "No" to a player who wants to do this.

But you can get two strikes:

Bonus Action: Tunnel Fighter
Action: Command(Flee)
*on his turn, enemy uses the dash action to run.*
Reaction: AoO + relentless Avenger to block his escape.
Tunnel Fighter Reaction: AoO when he runs away from you again (in the opposite direction, probably towards your teammates.)

If someone else commands him to flee, you can get three strikes

Bonus Action: Tunnel Fighter
Action: Attack
Ally action: Fear/Command(Flee)
*on his turn, enemy uses the dash action to run.*
Reaction: AoO + relentless Avenger to block his escape.
Tunnel Fighter Reaction: PAM AoO when he runs into your threatened area
Tunnel Fighter Reaction: AoO when he runs out of your threatened area.

So I think the last trick is the best available, but it actually only nets you one additional attack, since you could have just used the PAM bonus attack.

[trctelles]

You could also get PAM+Tunnel Fighter+ Warcaster with some race that gives you Booming Blade (Or take Magic Initiate)

They enter your reach, you AoO them with Booming Blade. If they want to reach you, they have to proc the Booming Blade.
At lvl 5 you're looking at INFINITE AoO (as long as they keep running at you) dealing 1d10 slashing + 1d8 thunder + 2d8 thunder if they move. It's quite a good build to be honest, I'm doing something similar with my Hexblade Warlock but I'll be doing it with Eldritch Blast (This is open to interpretation, by RAW you CAN use Eldritch Blast with Warcaster+PAM, but JC say he doesn't allow it... Ask your DM, mine allowed it)

[strangebloke]

You could also get PAM+Tunnel Fighter+ Warcaster with some race that gives you Booming Blade (Or take Magic Initiate)

They enter your reach, you AoO them with Booming Blade. If they want to reach you, they have to proc the Booming Blade.
At lvl 5 you're looking at INFINITE AoO (as long as they keep running at you) dealing 1d10 slashing + 1d8 thunder + 2d8 thunder if they move. It's quite a good build to be honest, I'm doing something similar with my Hexblade Warlock but I'll be doing it with Eldritch Blast (This is open to interpretation, by RAW you CAN use Eldritch Blast with Warcaster+PAM, but JC say he doesn't allow it... Ask your DM, mine allowed it)

Wait, why infinite? Am I missing something?

Warcaster let's you use BB for an AoO. But it doesn't push them back or anything.

Oh, duh. Repelling blast and hexblade.

NICE. Still, while I would allow that as a DM, most foes would see one guy get whacked and then find a way around.

[trctelles]

Wait, why infinite? Am I missing something?

Warcaster let's you use BB for an AoO. But it doesn't push them back or anything.

Oh, duh. Repelling blast and hexblade.

NICE. Still, while I would allow that as a DM, most foes would see one guy get whacked and then find a way around.

The infinite part of AoO is from Tunnel Fighter (using a bonus action to remove the Reaction cost of AoA), as long as there are enemies willing to get into your reach.

With Booming Blade, yeah they aren't pushed back or anything, but they have to choose between getting to you or take another 2d8 thunder damage.

The Eldritch Blast combo I'll be doing can really be countered by smart thinking on the enemies, but that one fool that does get the hard end of it will be done hehe

[ZZTRaider]

Remember that Booming Blade has a range of 5 feet. It doesn't combo with reach weapons unless you also have Spell Sniper or have houseruled that it uses the range of the weapon you're attacking with.

[strangebloke]

Remember that Booming Blade has a range of 5 feet. It doesn't combo with Polearm Mastery unless you also have Spell Sniper or have houseruled that it uses the range of the weapon you're attacking with.

Quarterstaff.

[greenstone]

Threads like this are a good example of why Wizards has said that UA stuff is not written considering multiclassing. :smallsmile:

[Mikal]

Threads like this are a good example of why Wizards has said that UA stuff is not written considering multiclassing. :smallsmile:

Except that the PAM+Tunnel Fighter+War Caster into Booming Blade can be done easily without multiclassing...

[Talamare]

PAM + Booming Blade does NOTHING

PAM let's you do it WHEN THEY ENTER, meaning they are already within 5ft of you when you apply Booming Blade
They aren't moving again, since they already within 5ft, so the secondary explosion never triggers

This is completely different than Warcaster + Booming Blade that happens as they are attempting to leave the square, which essentially auto triggers Booming Blade

Remember that Booming Blade has a range of 5 feet. It doesn't combo with reach weapons unless you also have Spell Sniper or have houseruled that it uses the range of the weapon you're attacking with.

This would work, if you have Spell Sniper to make BB into 10 ft. Then you would trigger PAM and BB at 10ft away, meaning that to enter the Sq within 5ft of you; they would need to trigger BB.

[Mikal]

PAM + Booming Blade does NOTHING

PAM let's you do it WHEN THEY ENTER, meaning they are already within 5ft of you when you apply Booming Blade
They aren't moving again, since they already within 5ft, so the secondary explosion never triggers

This is completely different than Warcaster + Booming Blade that happens as they are attempting to leave the square, which essentially auto triggers Booming Blade

I guess I'd have to use a 5ft. polearm like a quarterstaff then wouldn't I...?
(Still need Warcaster of course)

Or, alternatively, add spell sniper to make Booming Blades reach 10 ft..

[strangebloke]

Except that the PAM+Tunnel Fighter+War Caster into Booming Blade can be done easily without multiclassing...

And it isn't really overpowered. At least, it isn't overpowered if Sentinel+PAM+Tunnel Fighter isn't overpowered.

The tricks with the vPally don't require multiclassing either.

It'll be interesting to see what the effect looks like when/if it get's published.

[borg286]

Have you thought of a Lance and quarterstaff. PAM procs when they enter, which doesn't cost a reaction. Get an ally to caste command for opportunity attack procs and you get two more attacks. When they leave quartstaffs range do booming blade.

[Avonar]

It's also been confirmed that PAM and Warcaster do not work together. For a PAM AoO you need to actually use the polearm. Which makes sense.

[strangebloke]

It's also been confirmed that PAM and Warcaster do not work together. For a PAM AoO you need to actually use the polearm. Which makes sense.

In the example, though, he was. Specifically, he was using booming blade, which uses the polearm as part of the components of the cantrip.