Back ranks beguiler help

[Jarob22]

Hello all,

I started a campaign recently with the idea of making a back ranks control caster (that had roguey skills, as I'm basically the party rogue, just not stabby), and came upon beguiler as what looked like a pretty nice option. However, after levelling to 2, I'm coming to the conclusion that to get the most out of it, I'll really need to be a melee gish due to cloaked/surprised casting at lvl 2 and surprised casting@6. If at this point you've already got ideas how I can continue beguiling from the back ranks, please do give me some options - I'd love to hear them! However, I suspect that I'm going to need to segue into a different class or two. My only two solid restrictions are:

I really do need to keep getting a good amount of skill points
The class(es) I segue into need to allow me to keep pumping traditionally rogue skills (open lock, search, spot, hide/move silently, disable device)

Our party consists of a druid, a paladin, a barbarian, a ranged ranger and myself, the rogue-***-control wizard. We're all newly level 2. System is dnd 3.5, all books are open.

If it is going to gimp me by being in the back ranks, I don't mind becoming a melee gish. I would just like to try and stick to the idea of being a back ranks, control-oriented spellcaster with "rogue" skills, if possible.

Cheers!

[Cosi]

Getting into melee as a caster for a +1 bonus to your DC is a stupid plan. That ability is basically flavor and you should ignore it. Instead focus on the fact that you get silent image, color spray, and sleep and can cast each of them whenever you want, plus a pile of utility spells.

PrCs that are good:

-The first level of Mindbender is basically free for you. Don't take any additional levels.
-Shadowcraft Mage is good if you either are a Gnome or can convince your DM to allow the non-Gnome variant.
-If your DM believes text trumps table, Rainbow Servant is the best thing you can be doing it gives you Prestige Domains (which can be shuffled with substitute domain out of a wand) and full spontaneous Cleric casting at high levels.
-Failing that, anything that gets you a Prestige Domain while not costing caster levels is good.

I wouldn't worry about skills too much. You're a high INT character, even on four or two skill points you can still keep most of your skill up, and you can bolster weak areas with spells.

Items to look out for are Knowstones and Runestaves, which can expand your list with critical spells if you have the UMD to use them.

[DEMON]

Cloaked casting is not really limited to melee range.
Surprise casting is something that should be seen as a back up option, rather than the go to one, most of the time.

Unseen Seer is a good PrC for your needs. Dipping a Scout might be a way to benefit from the extra damage and avoid the front line.

There are also other, more or less optimized option offering different BAB/CL/overall tactics depending on what you're willing to do (and prefer to do) with this guy/gal.

[daremetoidareyo]

shadowcaster 2 can pick pockets from a distance. https://web.archive.org/web/20150106122152/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a

use quicker than the eye and umbral hand, and maybe the master pickpocket feet from City of stormreach and steal spell component pouches, wands, potions, Etc or drop stones with Silence cast on them onto enemy spellcasters

[wookietek]

Beguiler19/Mindbender1 cast from the back skillmonkey is a fun flavorful build. If you're relying on cloaked casting /surprised casting then you're doing it wrong. I'm in hiatus on a campaign where I'm 2/3 of the way up that build, and I have no complaints. The rest of the party aslo loves having me around as the 5th member.

[Jarob22]

Getting into melee as a caster for a +1 bonus to your DC is a stupid plan. That ability is basically flavor and you should ignore it. Instead focus on the fact that you get silent image, color spray, and sleep and can cast each of them whenever you want, plus a pile of utility spells.

PrCs that are good:

-The first level of Mindbender is basically free for you. Don't take any additional levels.
-Shadowcraft Mage is good if you either are a Gnome or can convince your DM to allow the non-Gnome variant.
-If your DM believes text trumps table, Rainbow Servant is the best thing you can be doing it gives you Prestige Domains (which can be shuffled with substitute domain out of a wand) and full spontaneous Cleric casting at high levels.
-Failing that, anything that gets you a Prestige Domain while not costing caster levels is good.

I wouldn't worry about skills too much. You're a high INT character, even on four or two skill points you can still keep most of your skill up, and you can bolster weak areas with spells.

Items to look out for are Knowstones and Runestaves, which can expand your list with critical spells if you have the UMD to use them.

I hadn't taken any of those skills for mindbender, but if I take a little in each for a few levels it'll be pretty easy to get there.
How many levels of shadowcraft mage would you recommend? Pretty much every class feature up to 5th sound awesome.
Sorry, prestige domains? It says it just gives the good/air/law domains.

[radthemad4]

Sorry, prestige domains? It says it just gives the good/air/law domains.'Prestige domain' refers to domains granted by prestige classes. The first level of Rainbow Servant gives you the Good Domain. However, if you then cast Substitute Domain (lvl 2 cleric spell, lasts 1 day per level), you can swap it out for any other domain your deity offers. Since Substitute Domain isn't on your list, you'll need to buy a wand or something and UMD it. You can swap out your other domains from Rainbow Servant once you get them.

If you actually expect the game to go high enough for 10 levels of Rainbow Servant, go for it, but if not, I'd recommend just taking one level of Rainbow Servant so you have a domain to shuffle around and then taking Shadowcraft Mage and/or other PRCs.

[Gnaeus]

How experienced/optimized is your party?
What is your wisdom?

Like the others, I agree that the bonuses you get aren’t worth entering melee.

I agree that the strategies they use are solid in high op games. If your wizard is an incantrix or the word planar shepherd escapes your Druids lips, they are spot on.

In a low/mid op game Beguiler beats sorcerer and likely wizard out of the box. You know more decent spells than they can memorize and top it off with armor, skills and more HP. You are already better than the ranger, Barbarian or Paladin. Stay in back. Cast sleep or color spray if the enemy accidentally gets in your face. At 4 you get new offensive options like glitterdust and most of the good defense spells. At 6 you get haste (which in your party you should cast round 1 of every single fight until about 12th level because it’s solid and will help your teammates function. Seriously, if all you do is cast haste and take naps you should do more damage than anyone else in your team.) I do NOT recommend shadowcraft Mage or rainbow servant unless your teammates have significant optimization chops AND you want to deal with having every cleric spell or every wizard conjunction/evocation spell at your fingertips each round.

There are some lower powered but still good PRCs, but Beguiler 19/mindbender 1 is the easiest lower powered choice. If you have enough wisdom, I like Arcane disciple from complete divine. Something like travel or summoner domain.

[Jarob22]

'Prestige domain' refers to domains granted by prestige classes. The first level of Rainbow Servant gives you the Good Domain. However, if you then cast Substitute Domain (lvl 2 cleric spell, lasts 1 day per level), you can swap it out for any other domain your deity offers. Since Substitute Domain isn't on your list, you'll need to buy a wand or something and UMD it. You can swap out your other domains from Rainbow Servant once you get them.


What domain would you recommend?

@Gnaeus my wis is 11 so pretty crap.

The party is not a MAD or even really that optimised, most think about the fun and character before optimisation which is all cool but we're definitely in the low-mids of optimisation.

[Zaq]

AFB, but I think the Bloodline feats in Dragon Compendium are open to Beguilers, aren’t they? That can be a way to hack a set of thematically linked additional spells onto your spells known list when Arcane Disciple is too WIS-dependent for you.

Overall, I agree that just straight Beguiler or Beguiler with a Mindbender dip is a totally solid and functional character for a mid-op game.

If you’d prefer to be Good (which precludes Mindbender, I think—again, AFB), you might see if your GM will allow you to access Exalted spells by using the feat Arcane Preparation. This is primarily for (Greater) Luminous Armor, which is as close to a one-and-done fix for low AC as you’re likely to find, though there are also a handful of others that are situationally useful.

The tricky part about PrCing is that Beguilers have to put in a fair bit of extra work to get into PrCs that both don’t lose casting and don’t interfere with your skill progression. If skills are very important to you (and it sounds like they are), be wary of that.

[Gnaeus]

The tricky part about PrCing is that Beguilers have to put in a fair bit of extra work to get into PrCs that both don’t lose casting and don’t interfere with your skill progression. If skills are very important to you (and it sounds like they are), be wary of that.

Sandshaper (sandstorm) is one (non useless) feat and some skills to qualify for. Loses 1 CL, adds a whole bunch of spells to list.

Fiend blooded is bad for skill progression, but pretty easy to qualify for and can get fire or necromancy spells of your choice (1 per 2 levels). Full casting (for the first 9 levels) and some other coolness. (Also requires non-good)

Those are the first 2 that come to mind for a fixed list, low wis caster in a group where shadowcraft gnomes or rainbow servants are too high op. Not crazy, but solid.

[Jarob22]

Some interesting bits about these bloodline feats, especially earth one. Enlarge person/keen edge at low levels, and iron body/summon monster IX at high sound awesome. Dragon one looks decent too but as a beguiler I already get some of those spells anyway. Cheers Zaq!

@Gnaeus - fiend blooded talks about a familiar - does it give you one, or do those things only apply if you already have one?

[radthemad4]

What domain would you recommend?
It depends on what sort of spells you'd like, what deities are available and what their portfolios are. Keep in mind that you can recast Substitute Domain to get a different domain granted by your deity anytime you've got 10 minutes to spare. I think Eberron's Sovereign Host is the published deity with the most domains. If your campaign uses published gods, this (http://ftm3.altervista.org/ASMoNM/domains.html) may come in handy.