Player building a house-ruled sorc; which of these would you allow?

[Batou1976]

So, the PC in question will be a sorcerer 1 with the Acolyte background; character's backstory is she is a foundling left on the front porch of a temple/orphanage and at some point decided to begin training as a cleric, but actually quit before attaining level 1 to pursue sorcery instead, though the player wants her to have learned a few rudimentary cleric spells first.

"No, problem", you're thinking? "Play var human and take Magic Initiate as your level 1 feat"?
Nope. Player's sold on half-elf. Gameplay wise, they want the CHA boost for their spellcasting, and RP-wise the player likes the idea of their character being utterly without ties- no known family, doesn't entirely fit in among humans OR elves, and has only just (as of campaign start) reached early adulthood while all her childhood friends have long since grown up and started families and may even be grandparents.

So... I've got a couple of ideas for how to help this player realize their concept:

1) play a SCAG variant half-elf and take the elven magic option, but allow them to pick from the cleric cantrips instead

2) give up all starting weapon proficiencies in exchange for the Magic Initiate feat. The player is ok with doing this (said it makes sense since the PC grew up in an orphanage "who would have taught her how to use a staff or a crossbow anyhow?") but I'm kinda "eeeeehhhhh..." on how balanced this choice might be.

So, Playgrounders, which way would you go? Door #1, door #2, or take an as-yet undiscovered third option?

[Khrysaes]

Divine Soul Sorc in XGTE is an option, allows the sorc to gain spells from the cleric spell list.

Were they set on a specific subclass?

[bid]

2) give up all starting weapon proficiencies in exchange for the Magic Initiate feat.
Just start vuman and fluff it.

[Kane0]

Swapping out some racial features for racial casting ala drow/tiefling should be fine, just use thise other races to eyeball it. I think SCAG had just that actually, just swap around the spells granted.

[Batou1976]

Just start vuman and fluff it.

Refluff a vuman to be a v...alf-elf? :smallconfused:

[Batou1976]

Divine Soul Sorc in XGTE is an option, allows the sorc to gain spells from the cleric spell list.

Were they set on a specific subclass?

I'm afraid I don't have Xanathar's yet, but I did happen to be looking at the UA divine soul this morning. Did they keep the fluff essentially the same for XGTE? We can re-fluff it to taste, in any case.

As for being set on a particular subclass... they were leaning towards storm sorceror, even though some of its features are "meh". Maybe I need to swing by the bookstore this weekend and peek in XGTE to see if Divine Soul is really what we're looking for (and buy the book anyway even if it isn't; I hear there's lots of good stuff in it :smallbiggrin: ).

[LeonBH]

A character who has no ties at all in the world is pretty boring. They would have no goals to pursue because there's nothing they're bound to. They could complete quests the DM gives them but it just isn't as dramatic as completing quests they choose to do for themselves.

Anyway, removing all weapon proficiencies for a free feat is not a fair trade. They get a power bump because Sorcs can multiclass later on anyway and regain all those lost proficiencies. Also, the Sorc doesn't really need weapons.

Instead, remove all their skill proficiencies, including background and racial skills, and assign them the Magic Initiate feat. This is more fair because they would have to spend a feat to offset this penalty (the Skilled feat), but they gain a feat in exchange (Magic Initiate). Also, unlike weapons, Sorcs definitely need to use skills.

But among your choices, #1 sounds more fair than #2. But it does step on the Divine Soul's toes, so I'd be inclined to say, if your player wants a cleric cantrip, they should "pay up" by either taking a level in cleric, choosing Divine Soul, or taking Magic Initiate themselves later on.

[lunaticfringe]

SCAG High Half Elf with a Cleric Cantrip is the route I would take.

The bonus feat for proficiencies seems a little squirrelly to me. Most Sorcerers stop using weapons pretty early so it's a weak trade for 2 cantrips & a bonus spell known with a free daily cast imho.

[clash]

If you just want the new class content in xanathars dndbeyond has a digital copy pretty cheap

[Mr A25]

I know it’s not what you are asking, but taking two levels as a Tempest Cleric would really benefit the character. All Armor and Weapon Proficiency, every first level cleric spell, and if she enjoys the storm Sorcerer concept, they mesh incredibly well. Chain Lightning literally destroys everything with the channel divinity.

[Crgaston]

Letting the character trade the 2 assignable +1s for MI would seem to be more than fair, using the logic that a feat = 2 ability points.
Subtracting one or two of the bonus skills as well certainly wouldn’t be too harsh.

[MxKit]

1) play a SCAG variant half-elf and take the elven magic option, but allow them to pick from the cleric cantrips instead

This one seems the most intuitive; they're basically trading out two skills for one cantrip even just using the Half-High-Elf option, so it's not breaking the balance any to let them snag a Cleric cantrip instead of a Wizard one.

That said, getting rid of Fey Ancestry and Skill Versatility to just start with Magic Initiate would also be fair, I think. So would "lose one of your two +1 ability score bonuses, lose the two half-elf skill proficiencies, and lose your Sorcerer weapon proficiencies." Yeah, they can multiclass later and get those proficiencies back, but that would depend on the player wanting to multiclass and lagging behind one of their Sorcerer levels, they'd have to take the Skilled feat to make up for the skill loss, and they're just always going to be behind half an ASI.

[Khrysaes]

I would agree that if she wants storm sorc to take 2 levels of tempest cleric as it would grant everything she wants and more. Since it is a home game you could just ignore the wise req for multiclass if she doesn't meet it. You can deflator the abilities to be less divine too

Alternatively, just let her pick some cleric spells as her sorc spells known

[Batou1976]

A character who has no ties at all in the world is pretty boring. They would have no goals to pursue because there's nothing they're bound to. They could complete quests the DM gives them but it just isn't as dramatic as completing quests they choose to do for themselves.
Well, she’s not entirely without goals. I guess it would be more accurate to say her goals are not some of the more typical ones, such as restoring or defending family honor, etc.
I get what you’re saying, though. “Stranger with a mysterious past” (or without memories of same) is a character that’s been done to death, typically by writers too lazy to actually come up with a background. This player assures me the PC will have better motivation than “do whatever quests the DM decides on because meh”.


Anyway, removing all weapon proficiencies for a free feat is not a fair trade. They get a power bump because Sorcs can multiclass later on anyway and regain all those lost proficiencies. Also, the Sorc doesn't really need weapons.
Well, there is that… assuming they’re even inclined to multiclass rather than taking, say, Weapon Master. Also, in this campaign casters might find they do need weapons from time to time, even beyond low-levels because…

SCAG High Half Elf with a Cleric Cantrip is the route I would take.The bonus feat for proficiencies seems a little squirrelly to me. Most Sorcerers stop using weapons pretty early so it's a weak trade for 2 cantrips & a bonus spell known with a free daily cast imho.
I guess this is where it’s worth mentioning I’m using the “short rest=8 hours/ long rest= 1 week” option from the DMG, so it’s more like a free weekly cast instead. :smallamused:
The casters should be a bit more cautious with their mega-blasty stuff and actually bother with weapons instead of relying entirely on magic all the time if they require an entire week of downtime to recharge their spells.

I looked at XGTE on dndbeyond, and yes the “just the classes” package is not a whole lot of $$, and for what dndbeyond is asking for the whole book, I could just order the print version from Amazon (which I prefer to PDFs). So, I’m probably going to do just that, because it’s really looking like the Divine Soul is the solution to our problem. *

*also keeping in mind the advice about Tempest clerics; the player isn’t as adamant about the “storm” sorcerer bit. I think they just zeroed in on that because they didn’t want to be yet another dragon-blooded sorcerer, and they ran screaming from the Wild Mage subclass. :smalleek:

[Ganymede]

Giving up something you don't want and never plan on using in order to get something that you really want and plan on using all the time is both a bad homebrew idea and a huge game design pitfall.

[Kane0]

Ah here we are, SCAG page 116, trade out Skill Versatility in exchange for Drow Magic. Then we can just swap Dancing Lights, Faerie Fire and Darkness using Charisma for say something like Resistance, Sanctuary and Aid using Wisdom. So yeah, option 1 should work just fine.

[Batou1976]

Giving up something you don't want and never plan on using in order to get something that you really want and plan on using all the time is both a bad homebrew idea and a huge game design pitfall.

From what the player has been saying, they do plan on using weapons at some point. The idea behind the character is she has little of the sort of experience adventurers have (hence the lack of proficiency with any weapons), ends up becoming an adventurer, and is going to have to start playing "catch-up" in that regard as she levels up.

[LeonBH]

Well, there is that… assuming they’re even inclined to multiclass rather than taking, say, Weapon Master. Also, in this campaign casters might find they do need weapons from time to time, even beyond low-levels because…

It's still a buff, again due to the possibility of multiclassing later on. Weapon Master is such a waste of a feat, whereas a 1-level dip in War Cleric will give them proficiency in simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, shields, and not break their spellcasting progression.

And take note that War Cleric is pretty bad ass. Give them a ranged weapon with the loading property (I prefer guns if the setting makes it available), and you have a ranged fighter in heavy armor who can fire a loading weapon twice a round due to War Priest.

[bid]

And take note that War Cleric is pretty bad ass. Give them a ranged weapon with the loading property (I prefer guns if the setting makes it available), and you have a ranged fighter in heavy armor who can fire a loading weapon twice a round due to War Priest.
Nah, I would say loading is more specific than war priest. You could argue for the opposite, but it's a pretty ambiguous interpretation.

[Batou1976]

It's still a buff, again due to the possibility of multiclassing later on. Weapon Master is such a waste of a feat, whereas a 1-level dip in War Cleric will give them proficiency in simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, shields, and not break their spellcasting progression.

That feat did seem a smidge underwhelming to me, too... but since we're not big minmaxers or optimizers in my group, it's entirely possible (even likely) for someone to pick it, wanting to remain a single-classed [whatever], even though dipping into War cleric (or Tempest cleric, or Life cleric, etc) is more mechanically advantageous. We do want the characters we play to be effective, of course, but none of us really care to try to squeeze every last conceivable +1 out of the rules.

That being said, I'm all for simple solutions over the Gygax method of ridiculous and burdensome solutions to what was arguably not even a problem to begin with. :smallbiggrin:
So, we're going to go with either 1) pick a cleric cantrip instead of a wizard one, and play storm sorc (if they do indeed pick that origin) or 2) play a Divine Soul.
Not that I needed an excuse to buy XGTE... but now I've got one. :smallbiggrin:

[Hrugner]

Of the two, I'd go with the first option. Cleric cantrips aren't a big deal balance wise, particularly when compared to a first level spell in the other option. If I were running the game, I'd consider giving everyone a story feat for free at the beginning and just restrict the selection of feats a little bit. It's simpler and more fair to the players who aren't pushing for something special.

[Batou1976]

Of the two, I'd go with the first option. Cleric cantrips aren't a big deal balance wise, particularly when compared to a first level spell in the other option. If I were running the game, I'd consider giving everyone a story feat for free at the beginning and just restrict the selection of feats a little bit. It's simpler and more fair to the players who aren't pushing for something special.

Bolded by myself.

Well, that's certainly another possibility I hadn't really thought of. >.< Not unbalancing if everyone gets one, and doesn't require any sort of tinkering "under the hood".

To be clear on my previous post, I meant we would be doing one or the other. They're definitely not going to pick a cleric cantrip instead of wizard, AND play a Divine Soul.

[danpit2991]

I guess this is where it’s worth mentioning I’m using the “short rest=8 hours/ long rest= 1 week” option from the DMG, so it’s more like a free weekly cast instead. :smallamused:
The casters should be a bit more cautious with their mega-blasty stuff and actually bother with weapons instead of relying entirely on magic all the time if they require an entire week of downtime to recharge their spells.

:

i guess there will be no warlocks in your game

[Blacky the Blackball]

My option #3 would be:

"Okay, so you're a half-elf who trained to become a cleric and learned basic clerical magic (i.e. achieved level one in the cleric class) but you discovered that you had a sorcerous bloodline so you quit the church to explore sorcery. Fine. So at the start of the game you'll be a first level cleric. We're at the point in your back story where you've just discovered your sorcerous talent and quit the church but you haven't yet mastered it to the point where you can reliably cast spells (i.e. you're not yet also a first level sorcerer). When you get to second level, you can multi-class to sorcerer and that will represent you now having learned how to cast sorcery spells properly."

[bid]

i guess there will be no warlocks in your game
The weekly option means 6 short rests every long rest...
Warlocks will be the only caster in your game.

[LeonBH]

The thing is, under Gritty Realism, nothing should change about the adventuring day. The adventurers get 2 adventuring days dotted by short rests, and then long rest. That way, short or long rest classes don't come out on top.

[Honest Tiefling]

Just start vuman and fluff it.

I'd suggest this. Maybe they take after their human parent just enough to not have certain other features.

Through if I had to pick number 2, I would be concerned that a sorcerer wouldn't need the weapon proficiencies to begin with. However, there is the argument that if YOU choose the spells based on the faith that raised her, you could pick the background and spells granted by magic initiate. That way, you can pick things that are thematically appropriate and won't unbalance the game. Another is to make them earn these spells by really justifying why those spells, not just the more optimized choices.

Personally, I'd also make the character give up Fey Ancestry as well as Skill Versatility for such a powerful option. You could even try to tie it into her past, if she doesn't mind you deciding that.

Through from an RP perspective, if she doesn't maintain her faith, won't someone be upset she's using divine magic? If it is tied to the gods, I'd think that the god would be upset. If it isn't, I think her foster temple might be upset she wandered off to a different faith.


A character who has no ties at all in the world is pretty boring. They would have no goals to pursue because there's nothing they're bound to. They could complete quests the DM gives them but it just isn't as dramatic as completing quests they choose to do for themselves.

I think the player should be given a chance to prove themselves. After all, a orphan caught between two worlds might be perfect for a group consisting of a tiefling, a half-orc and a war-forged, as they all come together as misfits. Ragtag heroes are the leading cause of death of BBEGs for a reason, after all. The idea that the character might be an orphan leads me to believe this is to forge bonds with the other PCs.

And a newer player (if they are one) might have issues with a more complex background. The lack of hooks is an issue, but a lack of goals can be quickly fixed with some threats coming to mess with them or other players having interesting arcs they wish to pursue.

[bid]

The thing is, under Gritty Realism, nothing should change about the adventuring day. The adventurers get 2 adventuring days dotted by short rests, and then long rest. That way, short or long rest classes don't come out on top.
Yep. That's the best way to keep the balance.