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banjo1985
2007-08-23, 04:59 AM
I've recently bought Monte Cooks WoD d20, and as well as an interesting take on the traditional Storytelling setting, it offers up a number of possible rules/game mechanics that could be incorporated into DnD.

The magic system is fluid and based around components, Mages have a number of components they can use per day, and they can use them to cast pretty much any spell they want, but the more components used the harder it is to cast the spell.

But the main thing that sounds like it could be put into DnD is the idea of giving a Lvl1 character 4HD at character creation. In my opinion this would solve the problem that many have with Lvl1 characters: they're overly fragile. At the same time, the characters would not be able to attack any better or have any further abilities above what they should, so encounters would still be challenging, but they are at less risk of dying from a lucky hit. It also gives the opportunity for a GM to drop in kobolds/goblins/orcs etc with character levels straight away without worrying about taking the characters out in single strikes.

I'm seriously considering putting this into a DnD campaign soon, as I can see it working well. What are your opinions on this game mechanic, and how can you see it affecting any game it is put into?

Ikkitosen
2007-08-23, 05:14 AM
Sounds good. You'd have to arbitrate HD effects as character level for PCs maybe, and houserule any complacated cases, for things like Sleep spells. Yes, low-level save or lose spells would go up in value quite a lot I reckon.

Greenfaun
2007-08-23, 05:24 AM
Well, I don't have any experience with it but I think it's a great idea.

One thing I've always wanted to try as a houserule if I ever DM again is all HD being racial- for instance, every medium humanoid gets 3d8 hit points or so, and the hit dice from classes becoming vitality points or something. This way characters wouldn't be so fragile at low levels or so ridiculously immune to danger in combat at high ones. That's just my own preference, though. Lots of people like 20th level bards that can, for instance, take 12 hits to the face with a battle-axe and keep singing.

Also, WOD beginning characters tend to be fairly formidable out of the gate, as opposed to level 1 D&D characters, who can be like "Oh noes, 3 goblins with rusty daggers!" So it's probably a fair way of making characters appropriately powerful, but still level 1.

Anyway, I know that wasn't much help, but I do think I should check this book out at some point now, so thanks.

Ashtar
2007-08-23, 05:27 AM
Just do something like HPx4 at first level, just like skill points. It will make the fights longer, increase the importance of sustained damage instead of peak damage which means the meleers physical damage dealers are advantaged.
Wizard damage spells will loose some interest, like magic missile, 1d4+1? useless at level 1, and save or lose will be more important.

I would say, don't even count it as HD, just state 1st HD is always x4 (or x3 or x2) for the life points. This could apply only to PC classes, or to all creatures (PCs, NPCs and monsters).

Foolosophy
2007-08-23, 05:46 AM
Wizard damage spells will loose some interest, like magic missile, 1d4+1? useless at level 1, and save or lose will be more important.


that would actually the opposite of what I would want in my games

BCOVertigo
2007-08-23, 06:11 AM
physical damage dealers are advantaged.

Hehe....that's so wrong it made me laugh a little.

Physical characters have only one way to resolve a combat, which is beating stuff until it stops moving. You just made that more difficult while leaving save or lose effects intact. (which can ignore how much hp the enemy has and put him down anyways)

So when you say physical characters are advantaged, what you mean is wizards own harder and fighters take even longer to contribute to the encounter.

banjo1985
2007-08-23, 06:21 AM
Physical characters have only one way to resolve a combat, which is beating stuff until it stops moving. You just made that more difficult while leaving save or lose effects intact. (which can ignore how much hp the enemy has and put him down anyways)

So when you say physical characters are advantaged, what you mean is wizards own harder and fighters take even longer to contribute to the encounter.

Not really, at least not from my point of view. A Fighter will have a bigger advantage over a 10hp 1st Lvl Kobold Fighter if he has 40+ hp than a Wizard would, sure the wiizard now has maybe 16hp, but his spells are no better or worse against the kobold than before, as the kobold still has more or less HD. I think caster levels would have to go on Class levels, thus stopping them from starting out as 4th Lvl casters.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-08-23, 06:29 AM
Star Wars Saga Edition gives you x3 your maximum HD in hp at first level, but you only get 1x your con modifier.

Which is sort of similar but doesn't give you higher attacks and saves.

Ashtar
2007-08-23, 06:43 AM
Well if your wizard is a blaster, he then contributes less. He would need more spells to get an enemy down. If your wizard is a save or lose type, he contributes equally.

Tormsskull
2007-08-23, 06:48 AM
I don't know if I like this idea. Is this for the PCs only? If so, then I guess its ok except that it leads to the inevitable "PCs are extraordinary" all the time. I prefer PCs to become extraordinary through their actions rather than just mechanically making them better.

If this applies to everyone, then it makes a dagger wielded by a level one commoner unlethal.

If you want to provide the PCs with a bit more survivability, you could always do the Vitality/Wound Point system. Vitality = Hit Points as normal, Wound = Constitution score (i.e. a level 1 wizard with a 12 Con would have 5 Vitality and 12 Wound points).

It gives lower-level characters more survivability and since criticals can be applied directly to Wound (though I'd recommend making it only on a natural 20), it keeps higher level combat lethal.

Kurald Galain
2007-08-23, 06:51 AM
Just do something like HPx4 at first level, just like skill points.

Exactly. Obviously, the reason why characters get quadruple skill points at level one, is because skills are pointless at low level otherwise.

banjo1985
2007-08-23, 06:52 AM
WoD d20 seems to only apply this to PC's, it has a sliding scale of ability, your basic civilian has 1HD, a police officer or similar proffessional has 2HD, and FBI agents, SWAT officers and other assorted bods get 3HD, with the characters having 4HD.

I'm really torn to be honest, I don't like PC's being extraordinary from the start, but I still really like this idea and how it could work in DnD.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-23, 07:11 AM
You could stress to the players how dangerous combat is. Then give them level appropriate encounters. If it is slightly tougher opponent, make sure there is a non-violent means of solving the problem.

It sounds like you want to up the power level of the PC's so they can more easily handle tougher opponents, when what you really need to do is just wait for them to be skilled enough to do so.

Note also that there are some spells that grant temporary hit points like Aid and False Life. Aid can be made into a potion (minimum 1d8+3 hp) but False life woul have to be built into a wondrous item or ring, maybe a single use salve. Assuming the tougher encounter was part of a hired quest, the quest giver could dole out some of these emergency buffs. I'd say it would cost about 600 gp per person to get a temporary 1d8+1d10+6 hp. That averages out to be an extra 16 hp, which is about the expected average of 3d8 HD. Then all you need is some means to justify the expense to the quest giver, and if he's powerful enough to make these items, why doesn't he just storm in and wipe out the encounter himself?

Ssiauhll
2007-08-23, 09:08 AM
Giving PCs more hit points is the last thing I want as a DM. Giving them more HP contributes to reckless dumbassed power gaming. The other problem isn't that PCs are to fragile far from it, the problem is that they are in a fair game neigh invulnerable. High amount of hit points mean that combat becomes something that simply isn't a risk, that things which should be dangerous aren't, and if they are can easily kill the entire party instead.

Rather I have been trying to figure out a way to limit the amount of HP that PC gain as they level in a satisfactory way.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-23, 09:10 AM
Give 'em vitality/wound points! Critical hits then bypass their regular HP, so they can get killed by masses of mooks and by lucky hits. Makes higher level combat somewhat more deadly, and keeps them alive at lower level.

sikyon
2007-08-23, 09:28 AM
I'd just make death damage go form 0 to -25 instead of 0 to -10. That way, it's harder for characters to die at lower levels because they can live through an encounter more eaisily (more balanced averages).

Yakk
2007-08-23, 10:33 AM
Grant extra HP equal to your base Constitution at L 1.

Below 0, you take Constitution damage (that, as a special rule, does not change your current HP: HP cannot go below 0) instead of HP damage. This tends to extend your life when KO'd, but also makes being KO'd really painful (attribute damage).

Ashtar
2007-08-23, 11:13 AM
Oooh, nice one Yakk. I'll remember that variant.