Dragon's Breath effect on following turns + quickened leveled spell?

[samcifer]

So if I had cast Dragon's Breath on myself on a previous turn and use it's effect as my action on a turn after the one where I initially cast it, can I quicken a spell of lv. 1 or higher and use both on the same turn?

For example:

Turn 1: Dragon's Breath as bonus action (for initial casting), then use the D Breath for my standard action that turn.

Turn 2: Use DB as my standard action, then quicken Fireball and cast it as my bonus action.

Is this viable?

[ZZTRaider]

Yep. After you initially cast Dragon's Breath, you're not casting a new spell every time you use the effect. Instead, you're using a special action given to you by the ongoing spell. As a result, you don't run afoul of the restrictions regarding bonus action spells.

[SharkForce]

this also works with other similar spells (for example, if you somehow got your grubby mitts on call lightning, or the various elemental investitures, or sunbeam).

[BloodOgre]

this also works with other similar spells (for example, if you somehow got your grubby mitts on call lightning, or the various elemental investitures, or sunbeam).

What about witch bolt? What if i cast it on turn one and then continue it's effect on turn 2, could I then quicken another spell (i.e. chromatic orb) while maintaining witch bolt?

[samcifer]

What about witch bolt? What if i cast it on turn one and then continue it's effect on turn 2, could I then quicken another spell (i.e. chromatic orb) while maintaining witch bolt?

Such a horrible spell to combine ANYTHING with, imo, but since he/she asked...

[SharkForce]

What about witch bolt? What if i cast it on turn one and then continue it's effect on turn 2, could I then quicken another spell (i.e. chromatic orb) while maintaining witch bolt?

hypothetically, assuming that neither you nor your target move our of range, or out of LOS, etc, you could continue to deal your mediocre damage with witch bolt.

[LeonBH]

Witch Bolt is better than Firebolt + Quickened Spell combo, assuming the Sorc isn't using a concentration spell, because it is an auto-hit, so its DPS is higher.

[SharkForce]

Witch Bolt is better than Firebolt + Quickened Spell combo, assuming the Sorc isn't using a concentration spell, because it is an auto-hit, so its DPS is higher.

well, with the following caveats:

1) at later levels, the average damage of a cantrip will exceed witch bolt. i'm not certain if that comes as early as level 5 (but it'll be close if it isn't), but certainly by level 11 unless the cantrip you're casting does d4s or something. basically, witch bolt scales incredibly poorly.
2) firebolt + quickened spell is not generally great in the first place, so "better than not very good" isn't saying much.
3) it has the drawback that you need to use up a precious sorcerer spell known on witch bolt.
4) there are a variety of ways to get rid of witch bolt.
5) firebolt + quickened spell has the option to not use the firebolt this round but use it again next round, while witch bolt ends if you stop using actions.
6) it still takes a round to "spin up" so to speak; witch bolt doesn't beat chromatic orb in damage until the second round.
7) your own movement is restricted if you want to maintain witch bolt, while quickened spell + firebolt can be done from either the range of the quickened spell or 120 feet (240 if you invest in spell sniper), whichever is lower.

[Gardakan]

Twinned Dragon's Breath by a sorcerer has a ridiculous amount of damage output early on.

Turning tanks into flame thrower is funny for newcomers in Adventurer's League (and pretty efficient after all).

[LeonBH]

well, with the following caveats:

1) at later levels, the average damage of a cantrip will exceed witch bolt. i'm not certain if that comes as early as level 5 (but it'll be close if it isn't), but certainly by level 11 unless the cantrip you're casting does d4s or something. basically, witch bolt scales incredibly poorly.
2) firebolt + quickened spell is not generally great in the first place, so "better than not very good" isn't saying much.
3) it has the drawback that you need to use up a precious sorcerer spell known on witch bolt.
4) there are a variety of ways to get rid of witch bolt.
5) firebolt + quickened spell has the option to not use the firebolt this round but use it again next round, while witch bolt ends if you stop using actions.
6) it still takes a round to "spin up" so to speak; witch bolt doesn't beat chromatic orb in damage until the second round.
7) your own movement is restricted if you want to maintain witch bolt, while quickened spell + firebolt can be done from either the range of the quickened spell or 120 feet (240 if you invest in spell sniper), whichever is lower.

While you're right that Firebolt will outclass Witch Bolt eventually, it doesn't outclass it at levels 1-4. At levels 5-10, they're equal in power against AC 10. Firebolt is stronger against an AC 1-9. And Witch Bolt is stronger against AC 11+, in terms of DPS. But at level 11-16, Firebolt is stronger for AC 14 and below, while the auto-hit of Witch Bolt is still stronger against AC15+.

Firebolt + Quickened Spell is generally used to increase DPS, so when it's used, it's generally to deal as much damage as quickly as possible - ie, blasting. So that's the purpose I had in mind when remarking that Witch Bolt + Quickened Spell is better. The Sorcerer generally doesn't have another damage option other than a cantrip.

You are right in that it takes up the Sorcerer's spells known. I wouldn't be excited to pull it off myself.

[SharkForce]

witch bolt does 1d12 damage per round. never scales up.

you sure you need to hit that often for fire bolt to be worth it at level 11?

i'm figuring +5 (attribute) +4 (proficiency) means you should probably have +9 to hit by level 11. against AC 14, that's 80% of the time... plus you do double on a crit that witch bolt can never do, so effectively the same average as 85% of the time. and you're dealing 16.5 average damage. some quick math suggests that's an average of just over 14 damage; not exactly stellar, but certainly higher than 6.5 by a rather large margin... some more quick math suggests you could hit 40% of the time and still (barely) average more damage, which would happen at AC 21 i think. except crits effectively add another 5% as noted before, which bumps the required AC to 22.

now, granted, it is super late (or early, depending on perspective), so i could be missing something blindingly obvious. but unless i derped fairly hard, i'm pretty sure fire bolt is going to consistently be better than sustaining witch bolt for this purpose at level 11.

at level 5, it should be at 60% that fire bolt beats witch bolt. with +4 (attribute) and +3 (proficiency), that would mean AC 16 is the breaking point where fire bolt becomes (barely) better than witch bolt i think. so i could certainly see the argument that witch bolt is... well, i won't say competitive, because it has all the other drawbacks, but you could at least make a reasonable argument that it is for use against high AC enemies (unlike AC 22, AC 17+ is rare but not limited to the most epic of opponents where if you're stuck choosing between a level 1 spell and a cantrip, you've got bigger problems). though, depressingly, it's hard to get it to land in the first place, in that case.

[samcifer]

Well, talked with my dm via facebook and he's mulling over whether I can use this or not. I explained how it's legal as it's an ongoing spell effect and even gave him a link to the spell so he can see what it does as well as compared it to Spiritual Weapon and how that can be used in a similar way (which I've already used in-game and he had no issue with that), so I'll have to see what he decides. :/

[Strangways]

Well, talked with my dm via facebook and he's mulling over whether I can use this or not. I explained how it's legal as it's an ongoing spell effect and even gave him a link to the spell so he can see what it does as well as compared it to Spiritual Weapon and how that can be used in a similar way (which I've already used in-game and he had no issue with that), so I'll have to see what he decides. :/

The bonus spell + cantrip only rule applies when you cast the spell, not while you enjoy its ongoing effects for spells that cause an effect lasting for several rounds. If you cast Expeditious Retreat on round 1, then used it to Dash on round 3, that wouldn't stop you from casting a spell on round 3.

[samcifer]

The bonus spell + cantrip only rule applies when you cast the spell, not while you enjoy its ongoing effects for spells that cause an effect lasting for several rounds. If you cast Expeditious Retreat on round 1, then used it to Dash on round 3, that wouldn't stop you from casting a spell on round 3.

Yeah. I think his issue is that it allows for a special attack on following turns and that attack uses the (standard) action.

[TheUser]

Well, talked with my dm via facebook and he's mulling over whether I can use this or not. I explained how it's legal as it's an ongoing spell effect and even gave him a link to the spell so he can see what it does as well as compared it to Spiritual Weapon and how that can be used in a similar way (which I've already used in-game and he had no issue with that), so I'll have to see what he decides. :/

Try to downplay it. 1 you have to be within 15ft which puts you in danger and 2 you will guzzle through sorcery points this way; each time you do it costs the same resources as a level 2 spell.

[samcifer]

Try to downplay it. 1 you have to be within 15ft which puts you in danger and 2 you will guzzle through sorcery points this way; each time you do it costs the same resources as a level 2 spell.

Yeah, I mentioned that. Enemy placement will also be a major factor in how often I can use that tactic, so it's not likely to happen very often.

[Zejety]

Twinned Dragon's Breath by a sorcerer has a ridiculous amount of damage output early on.

Turning tanks into flame thrower is funny for newcomers in Adventurer's League (and pretty efficient after all).

According to Crawford, you can't twin Dragon's Breath. :(
That ruling arguably isn't well supported by the rules but that was their intend (allegedly).

[DarkKnightJin]

Well, crud. I may need to dip 3 levels of Sorc on my Paladin for the fun of Dragon's Breathing stuff into ice statues..

[Strangways]

So if I had cast Dragon's Breath on myself on a previous turn and use it's effect as my action on a turn after the one where I initially cast it, can I quicken a spell of lv. 1 or higher and use both on the same turn?

For example:

Turn 1: Dragon's Breath as bonus action (for initial casting), then use the D Breath for my standard action that turn.

Turn 2: Use DB as my standard action, then quicken Fireball and cast it as my bonus action.

Is this viable?


There are lots of spells at higher level than Dragon’s Breath that grant you an ongoing ability to do some sort of attack. So if your DM is going to ban you from using Quickened spell metamagic with them, you might as well drop it now and get some other metamagic that he will actually let you use.

[samcifer]

There are lots of spells at higher level than Dragon’s Breath that grant you an ongoing ability to do some sort of attack. So if your DM is going to ban you from using Quickened spell metamagic with them, you might as well drop it now and get some other metamagic that he will actually let you use.

I think I can talk him into letting me use it as it's a valid combat strategy that many, if not all, casters can make use of. Besides, I won't be able to use it all the time as there are several factors to consider:

1. How high is my initiative and am I likely to get the two turns needed to execute it (first for casting DB, and second to use the breath attack and the AoE spell)?

2. Are enemies clustered together closely enough to make using both AoEs together worthwhile?

3. Do I have the 2 sorcery pts. needed to quicken the other spell?

4. Do I still have a Lv. 2 spell slot to cast DB and another of Lv. 2 or higher for the AoE spell to cast them both?

5. Will my allies take friendly fire if I do this?

6. Will I be able to get close enough to the enemies during a turn to use the breath attack?

and 7. Do I have enough HP to survive a round of possible counterattacks afterwards if I can't get far enough away after using the breath, assuming I have any movement left at all?

The likelihood of such scenarios is slim, so I doubt I would get to do this often. Maybe once every six battles or so. Also, as I said above, battles for our group last an average of 2 rounds, maybe 3. Also, the druid player of my group has access to Moonbeam, so he can do the same kinds of things I can (sans Quicken and Dragon's Breath, of course).

Hell, even a lv. 3 Wizard could do similar using Flaming Sphere and Shatter.

[Dalebert]

I quickened Eyebite and got two effects the first round. Then I was able to quicken other spells on following rounds by the same approach.

Your DM is just wrawng!

[Strangways]

I think I can talk him into letting me use it as it's a valid combat strategy that many, if not all, casters can make use of. Besides, I won't be able to use it all the time as there are several factors to consider:


Hopefully he’ll end up letting you agree to use your class abilities, but I’d still be irritated about having to negotiate for it in the first place. If I were fighter, I’d expect to get two attacks per round starting at level 5. I wouldn’t expect to get to level 5, then have to negotiate with the DM about how two attacks aren’t overpowered before possibly being permitted to use them.

[samcifer]

Hopefully he’ll end up letting you agree to use your class abilities, but I’d still be irritated about having to negotiate for it in the first place. If I were fighter, I’d expect to get two attacks per round starting at level 5. I wouldn’t expect to get to level 5, then have to negotiate with the DM about how two attacks aren’t overpowered before possibly being permitted to use them.

I think the issue is that Dragon's Breath is a new spell from Xanathar's and he might not be familiar with what it does. I sent him a link to a page showing the spell text on D&D Wiki. He might also be confused as I referenced Burning Hands in my initial description of what it does.

[SharkForce]

i would also point out that this kind of thing is what sorcerers get as their only significant class feature. a sorcerer with metamagic that doesn't work is pretty awful.

[Dalebert]

i would also point out that this kind of thing is what sorcerers get as their only significant class feature. a sorcerer with metamagic that doesn't work is pretty awful.

Sorcerers pay a heavy price for metamagic. Look at their spell list compared to a wizard's. Look at their spell's known compared to a wizard's by level. Heck, just look at their spell's known compared to what a wizard can prepare. This is a heavy price because metamagic is supposed to be amazeballs. If you nerf their metamagic, they are well and truly screwed.

The restrictions on casting bonus action spells with other spells is one of the most misunderstood and/or misremembered rules in the game. It's usually over-simplified to something like you can't cast two full spells in a turn. That's not a rule! You absolutely can with Action Surge. You absolutely can with an action spell and a reaction spell.

I think once you explain that the breath attack is not spellcasting (after the first turn), then he'll lighten up. That's exactly the sort of thing that Quickening a spell is intended to allow for. The point of quicken is to enhance your action economy and let you cast a spell AND do some other impactful action short of casting another full spell.