I want to add a buckler (light shield) To my game. Looking for feedback.

[Davrix]

Something me and another group member have been lamenting in 5th is that you cannot grapple with a shield and sword equipped. I get why but I also understand shields come in various sizes. I know 4th ed had the light shield which gave 1 AC vs 2 and it left your hand free.

Would such a thing be to unbalancing in 5th with things like grapple or shield master?

I mean as an example this is what I was thinking.

Buckler


This small, round shield held by a handle or worn on the forearm. Gives +1 to AC

When equipped in the hand you may make a bonus attack with it for 1D6 Damage

If worn on the forearm, this allows you to cast spells or grapple but not wield another weapon


Now I would probably add a change to shield master if taken that you get to add your modifier to the 1D4 if you take that feat or simply say take the duel wielding feat to let you add it and count it as a weapon.

[Ganymede]

Just apply the last bullet to all shields in general. Problem solved.

[Tanarii]

Bucklers aren't strapped to the arm. They're held in the fist. Which makes some editions treatment of them kind of strange.

[mephnick]

I'm not sure there's a place for it.

The +2AC a shield offers is countered by some pretty hard drawbacks. Adding a buckler basically gives you a +1 AC for no drawbacks. It's not just you, it's every homebrew ever about bucklers.

Like, yeah, it's not going to break the game, but it's an extra AC boost for no reason.

[Davrix]

Just apply the last bullet to all shields in general. Problem solved.

That would just be silly really. Your just gaining a advantage and changing the core rules of the shield itself with no drawbacks.

AC is much more valuable in 5th than it was in 4th. If the buckler gets some better perks it should loose something in the process, my bigger concern is how it will interact with some feats.


I'm not sure there's a place for it.

The +2AC a shield offers is countered by some pretty hard drawbacks. Adding a buckler basically gives you a +1 AC for no drawbacks. It's not just you, it's every homebrew ever about bucklers.

Like, yeah, it's not going to break the game, but it's an extra AC boost for no reason.

What if I tacked this on as a option if you took Shield master. I know SM is already a really good feat and it doesn't really need to be changed but at least there would be a buy in cost of a stat increase then


Bucklers aren't strapped to the arm. They're held in the fist. Which makes some editions treatment of them kind of strange.

Um actually some can be and just looking at google its literally the definition that pops up that i typed.

[Easy_Lee]

Just say you don't get your shield bonus to AC if you use that hand to grapple. That makes perfect sense, since you can't move it freely anymore.

As for bucklers, I'd say light armor, +1 AC, don or doff as an object interaction. That's something a few characters might use.

[Gizmogidget]

I believe in second edition the buckler only adds it's armor class to one target, because of it's size. I might add something like that for this so it has a bit more of a drawback. (Maybe not as few as 1 target, but definitely a limitation on the number of enemies you can defend from.

[Tanarii]

Um actually some can be and just looking at google its literally the definition that pops up that i typed.
Yep I see that. I did do that just to check myself before posting, but I tend to skip the Google definition and go straight to scan Wikipedia (which is typically the next thing) when I'm trying to make sure my thinking is on the money.

Regardless, it doesn't really matter. You know what you want to accomplish, and are looking for a way to do it.

My opinion is similar to mephnick's. I don't think there's a balanced way to do a "hand free for some stuff" Light Shield with +1 AC. Opinion based on attempts to do it in previous editions never seeming balanced to me. Maybe you can find a way that satisfies you though.

[Easy_Lee]

I believe in second edition the buckler only adds it's armor class to one target, because of it's size. I might add something like that for this so it has a bit more of a drawback. (Maybe not as few as 1 target, but definitely a limitation on the number of enemies you can defend from.

Why? That's just going to slow down the game and encourage odd tactics.

[Ganymede]

That would just be silly really. Your just gaining a advantage and changing the core rules of the shield itself with no drawbacks.

Is that really a problem?

Do you have sword-and-board PCs dominating your table?

Will the ability to hold a torch in your shield arm break your game?

Will letting shield armed PCs initiate a grapple be the catalyst that gets everyone else to trade in their greatswords and short swords for a shield?

[Unoriginal]

How is handling a buckler making your hand free? It's the opposite of what a buckler does.

[trctelles]

I think it's OK, Just take out the 1d6 damage for bonus action, I think it's too much that way. It's basically dual wielding with a short sword in the off-hand, with +1 AC and able to cast spells and grappel. It would give waaaaay too much for just losing 1 AC, dont you think?

[Joe the Rat]

It's not going to break things.

recommendations on the hand buckler:
-requires shield proficiency to not impose "not proficient with armor" penalties.
-Treat it as a light weapon - either martial or improvised. It's usability as a weapon follows from it's weapon properties. Bring your damage down to 1d4 (or 1d3 if you want to break from standard dice).
-Draws and Disarms like a weapon: You can equip it like you were drawing a weapon, and doffing it is a free action. Subject to disarming strikes.
-Duelist interaction: If you do not use it as a weapon, you may benefit from the Duelist Fighting Style. Your choice lasts until the start of your next turn.
-Dual Wielding: gives you +2 total AC (+1 for buckler, +1 for "weapon" in each hand)
-Shield Master: Is it too small? Decide if the add to dex save, reaction evasion, or bash options should apply. The Bonus action bash from shield master is only to knockdown/back. So you can freely damage, or knock on the bonus action. Want both? Be a Battlemaster.

Edit: The basic mechanics here is treating this as a club that provides +1AC (which kind of follows as martial upgrade), and may or may not count as a shield for shield master.

[KorvinStarmast]

Change the 1d6 to a 1d3 and you maybe have a good idea.
1d6 is (in this edition) too much for a small shield when a dagger does 1d4 and a two handed sword does 2d6.
In the edition where two handed words did 3d6 (1e AD&D versus large critters) that 1d6 might be OK, but I'd still go for 1d3 or 1d4.

Beyond that -- even though I do not personally care for this buckler thing in 5e as it screams "fiddly bits" to me - Joe seems to me to be on the right track.

[trctelles]

Threat it as a improvised weapon, if you want to wack someone with it, get Tavern Brawler like other people do, otherwise it's too good for a shield.

[Davrix]

It's not going to break things.

recommendations on the hand buckler:
-requires shield proficiency to not impose "not proficient with armor" penalties.
-Treat it as a light weapon - either martial or improvised. It's usability as a weapon follows from it's weapon properties. Bring your damage down to 1d4 (or 1d3 if you want to break from standard dice).
-Draws and Disarms like a weapon: You can equip it like you were drawing a weapon, and doffing it is a free action. Subject to disarming strikes.
-Duelist interaction: If you do not use it as a weapon, you may benefit from the Duelist Fighting Style. Your choice lasts until the start of your next turn.
-Dual Wielding: gives you +2 total AC (+1 for buckler, +1 for "weapon" in each hand)
-Shield Master: Is it too small? Decide if the add to dex save, reaction evasion, or bash options should apply. The Bonus action bash from shield master is only to knockdown/back. So you can freely damage, or knock on the bonus action. Want both? Be a Battlemaster.

Good advice here

Buckler - light martial weapon - requires shield proficiency to use without penalties


Grants 1 AC
Doffing this shield is a free item interaction but can be disarmed like a weapon
This shield is light enough that it doesn't impact hand gestures for spells or using the arm to grapple


This will let it stay in line with the dueling fighting style and doesn't interfere with the two weapon fighting style

however taking the duel wielder feat would offer you 2 AC and let you change the shield out for a second weapon on a whim under this variation.

I would let shield master still let you take the shove action but i would replace the other two with the following

Shield master - As a bonus action make a 1D6+str attack against one creature



I think this might actually work and doesn't seem to off-balance now

[KorvinStarmast]

Buckler - light martial weapon - requires shield proficiency to use without penalties


Grants 1 AC
Doffing this shield is a free item interaction but can be disarmed like a weapon
This shield is light enough that it doesn't impact hand gestures for spells or using the arm to grapple


This will let it stay in line with the dueling fighting style and doesn't interfere with the two weapon fighting style

However taking the duel wielder feat would offer you 2 AC and let you change the shield out for a second weapon on a whim under this variation.

I would let shield master still let you take the shove action but i would replace the other two with the following

Shield master - As a bonus action make a 1D6+str attack against one creature

I think this might actually work and doesn't seem to off-balance now
I'd be interested to see, in a few months time, how it played out at the table.
Best wishes.

[nickl_2000]

Can I also make another suggestion?

Parrying Dagger
An offhand dagger designed for strength in parrying away blades. Does 1d4 damage with no throwing range
-attacks with disadvantage since it's not designed as a killing tool.
-as a bonus action you can use the blade defensively giving you a +2 to defense until the start of your next turn.
-can only be wielded in your off hand


Does that seem fair? Or would it be better to always give a +1 to AC, but can get +2 with a bonus action?

[Lombra]

Any shield can already be used as an improvised melee weapon for 1d4 + STR bludgeoning damage.

That being said, if just saying "I'm wielding a buckler" isn't enough to suspend the table's disbelief, you may want to look at what are the actual differences between a regular shield and a buckler: lighter, smaller, more maneouverable. With that in mind, I would say that a buckler should trigger on reaction, for something like that:

Weapon/Martial/Buckler;
Cost: 10gp, Weight: 2lb. Damage: 1d4, Properties: Light, Special

If you get hit by a melee attack while wielding a buckler, and are not wearing a shield, you can use your reaction to gain a +2 bonus to your AC for that attack, potentially causing the attack to miss you. If the attack misses you, as part of the same reaction, you can make a melee weapon attack with a melee weapon you are wielding against the attacker.

It's sufficiently different to justify it along the normal shield, and works both as a defensive and offensive tool, which is what you were mainly intereasted in I think.

It could be put in the Armor/Shield category too with some fidgeting.

[Kane0]

Buckler: Same as a shield, but grants +1 AC and can be donned/doffed using an interaction rather than an action. You could probably make it half cost and weight too.

[HunterOfJello]

Buckler: Same as a shield, but grants +1 AC and can be donned/doffed using an interaction rather than an action. You could probably make it half cost and weight too.

I was going to suggest an idea like this. I think a modified shield that can be doffed (dropped) as an interaction or free action is what would be best in this sort of setup.

A shield that works while grappling doesn't quite make sense.

~

Another option is that a character can use their interaction to sheath their weapon, then attempt a grapple with that hand. This way they still have their shield on and can unsheath it again later. *shrug* just an option

[Davrix]

I get the idea that you can use a shield as a improvised weapon for 1D4+str but I don't think you get Proficiency unless you take the brawler feat which seems rather silly. (feel free to correct me someone if I have this wrong)

My goals were


Something that could be more easily equipped than a shield which takes a full action.
offer more versatility at the cost of less AC such as Grappling and leaving a hand open for spells so you wouldn't have to buy into war caster.



Also for those saying they don't understand how you could grapple with a light shield I don't see it as a big stretch, to wrap your arm around them and putting them in a choke hold sense the arm is much more maneuverable now.


If you get hit by a melee attack while wielding a buckler, and are not wearing a shield, you can use your reaction to gain a +2 bonus to your AC for that attack, potentially causing the attack to miss you. If the attack misses you, as part of the same reaction, you can make a melee weapon attack with a melee weapon you are wielding against the attacker.

That's actually not a bad Idea, though I think i would use that as the replacement for the last two bullet points of the shield master feat

[Lombra]

I get the idea that you can use a shield as a improvised weapon for 1D4+str but I don't think you get Proficiency unless you take the brawler feat which seems rather silly. (feel free to correct me someone if I have this wrong)

You would need tavern brawler, but that's a reasonable investment for the fluff IMO.


My goals were


Something that could be more easily equipped than a shield which takes a full action.
offer more versatility at the cost of less AC such as Grappling and leaving a hand open for spells so you wouldn't have to buy into war caster.


Making it a weapon instead of a shield solves the first problem, a buckler doesn't leave an hand empty tho, why would some frontliner spellcaster not take war caster anyways? I don't really see the point. Tbh I would add to tavern brawler that you can grapple even without free hands if you are wielding at least one improvised weapon. Remember that you can use any weapon as an improvised weapon in place of it's base stats.


Also for those saying they don't understand how you could grapple with a light shield I don't see it as a big stretch, to wrap your arm around them and putting them in a choke hold sense the arm is much more maneuverable now.

That much can be said for every one handed weapon really, using it with tavern brawler would give the fluff that you want for it.


That's actually not a bad Idea, though I think i would use that as the replacement for the last two bullet points of the shield master feat

My intent was to offer an item that gave the player a proactive approach to his defenses, at the cost of consistency, trying not to step on the toes of the Defensive Duelist feat. Making the buckler a Weapon would prevent it from working with shield master, which makes sense IMO because a buckler doesn't really feel like that much of a bashing tool (I mean, it is a bashing tool, just not enough to justify sending people prone I think), plus it's small size doesn't really justify the pseudo-evasion effect.

[Arkhios]

I'll just add my own thoughts into the fold. Pardon me if I repeat something that has been said.

I wouldn't do anything too fancy. Buckler would fall into same category of proficiency as the standard shield, for example.

+1 AC is a given, otherwise it would be redundant.
It could leave the hand free enough to hold a small hand-held item that is not a weapon or a weapon-like object. For example a torch or a spellcasting focus (other than shield, obviously).

[BobZan]

Too much, IMO.

+1 AC, Bonus Action, no drawbacks. That's not balanced.

Give the normal shield +3 AC, then. Or something like "You can use your reaction to add +1 to your Armor Class while wielding a Buckler and no other Shields".

Bonus action attack is waaaaay to much.

The way OP designed it gives free +1 AC and Action Economy... for like, 2gp?

It 'replaces' two feats: Dual Wielder and Warcaster.

[Arkhios]

The way you designed it...

Who, exactly are you talking to/about? A quote would be great so as to prevent misunderstanding.

[Talamare]

Shields are arguably one of the strongest possible thing you can have in hand in 5e. You can't underestimate the power of Shields.

This is how I would make a Buckler

Buckler - +1 AC, may spend a Bonus Action to gain +2 AC vs Melee Attacks.

All other mechanics of the normal Shield Continues

I would probably also introduce

Tower Shield - +2 AC, may spend a Bonus Action to gain +2 AC vs Ranged Attacks. Req 15 Strength.

[BobZan]

Who, exactly are you talking to/about? A quote would be great so as to prevent misunderstanding.

Talking about OP, sry.

[Theodoxus]

I use Zman's buckler, works well enough in my games.

Shields


Shield
Cost
AC Bonus
Strength
Stealth
Weight


Buckler
10 gp
+1
-
-
3 lb.


Buckler (Bladed/Spiked)
25 gp
+1
-
-
4 lb.


Shield
10 gp
+2
-
-
6 lb.


Tower Shield
30 gp
+2
Str 13
Disad
20 lb.




A Buckler can be donned and doffed as a bonus action instead of a full round action.

Buckler, Bladed or Spiked: A Bladed or Spiked Buckler is both a shield and a melee weapon. Gaining the bonus to AC requires proficiency in shields while using it as a weapon requires martial weapon proficiency. Attacks with a Buckler are made at disadvantage. A bladed buckler deals 1d4 (S) while a spike buckler deals 1d4 (P); both are considered light weapons. [They're also considered "Offhand", in Zman's homebrew, meaning you ignore the light weapon restriction for your main hand weapon.]

A Tower Shield grants half cover to its bearer against ranged attacks, ranged spell attacks and effects when the bearer is moving half speed or less and is aware of the attacker.