Has anyone tried Angry GM's Paragon monster?

[MadBear]

So first thing's first. I'm thinking of using the AG's paragon monster rules: http://theangrygm.com/return-of-the-son-of-the-dd-boss-fight-now-in-5e/

So, I'm looking at making an interesting boss fight for the end of a dungeon. It's a feral Orc caster, who will eventually fight the PC's 1v1. Essentially the rules Mash 2 monster together, to create an interesting boss (the boss get's 2 sets of HP's, 2 actions, 2 reactions, 2 BA, etc.).

This would be an orc spell caster who starts the fight as a shaman casting spells, and trying to intelligently fight off the PC's. If they go through his first set of hit points, he becomes enraged, forgetting this more formal training as a spellcaster, and charges them 1v1 as a feral brute.

I'm just curious if anyone's used his material, and how did they feel about it?

[Ninja_Prawn]

I'm just curious if anyone's used his material, and how did they feel about it?

My party fought a paragon giant octopus while sailing on a boat a while back (just 2 straight giant octopus monsters, the most basic application of the system). My feeling is that it worked exactly as advertised. I could probably have been more ambitious (there were a lot of NPC crew around, so it ended up being an easier encounter than I had wanted), but the whole 'two turns' thing worked fine, and it was exactly as hard as fighting two monsters.

I have yet to experiment with the more complicated paragon rules.

[Unoriginal]

I haven't tried it, but basically it's like you're doubling a monster's HPs and then giving them permanent Action Surge. Not a good idea most of the time.

From what I've heard from people who did try it, it's pretty clunky and not well-balanced, but sometime it can work as an encounter.

Honestly, if you wanted to do this "caster, then feral", encounter, you could simply take an appropriately beefy orc with Spellcasting, then give them a power like a Barbarian's rage during phase 2.

I suppose you want this to be a pure solo encounter?

[Easy_Lee]

I like the Angry GM, but this particular thing feels too gamey for my tastes. There are many ways to combine monsters without giving a monster multiple Anime-style forms. Multiple body parts that each act, sentient items that take a turn (such as a pauldron that buffs him or a sword that uses counterspell to protect him from saving throws), assistance from a patron or minor diety who can affect the battlefield from afar, or even a summoned companion are all ways to increase a single creature's action economy and effective HP. And this is all in addition to Legendary Actions that you can totally use.

For your shaman, suppose that ancestral spirits rise up to grant him boons and harm his enemies whenever he is threatened.

[Unoriginal]

One piece of advice: giving Lair actions and Legendary actions to your boss is a good way to let them handle a group.

[SkipSandwich]

Angry GM's Paragon monsters, as well as his called shot and dismemberment rules, together makeup one of the more elegant and flexible systems for designing interesting and memorable boss fights that I've ever seen.

I even have a streamlined "Boss" template inspired by the Paragon rules to quickly improvise a "paragon-lite" encounter out if any standard monster statblock.
*hp raised to maximum possible for hit dice
*creature may take one Boss Action after each player's turn which it can use to move up to half its speed as well as perform a single standard attack as listed on its statblock, or cast a cantrip
*the first time the creature is reduced to one-half or less of its max hp, end all ongoing conditions affecting it and refresh it's spellslots as well as any other limited use abilities.

[MadBear]

Angry GM's Paragon monsters, as well as his called shot and dismemberment rules, together makeup one of the more elegant and flexible systems for designing interesting and memorable boss fights that I've ever seen.

I even have a streamlined "Boss" template inspired by the Paragon rules to quickly improvise a "paragon-lite" encounter out if any standard monster statblock.
*hp raised to maximum possible for hit dice
*creature may take one Boss Action after each player's turn which it can use to move up to half its speed as well as perform a single standard attack as listed on its statblock, or cast a cantrip
*the first time the creature is reduced to one-half or less of its max hp, end all ongoing conditions affecting it and refresh it's spellslots as well as any other limited use abilities.

I like that. It's simple and yet, fairly elegant. I might use this instead.

[Easy_Lee]

*creature may take one Boss Action after each player's turn which it can use to move up to half its speed as well as perform a single standard attack as listed on its statblock, or cast a cantrip

I've seen systems in video games where monsters grow in power based on the number of players present. It seldom goes well. What this does is encourage optimization and, more importantly for D&D, give players an additional reason to dislike suboptimal players. I wouldn't want that kind of heat at my table.

[MadBear]

I've seen systems in video games where monsters grow in power based on the number of players present. It seldom goes well. What this does is encourage optimization and, more importantly for D&D, give players an additional reason to dislike suboptimal players. I wouldn't want that kind of heat at my table.

That's true of pretty much all D&D encounter design is it not then? I mean, a party of 4 10th level adventurers isn't doing what a party of 7 10th level of adventurers is doing. As a DM, the dungeons and world that the 7 party will fight, is different then the 4 person party, regardless of paragon creatures or not.

[Cybren]

That's true of pretty much all D&D encounter design is it not then? I mean, a party of 4 10th level adventurers isn't doing what a party of 7 10th level of adventurers is doing. As a DM, the dungeons and world that the 7 party will fight, is different then the 4 person party, regardless of paragon creatures or not.

By scaling it to number of players it means there's a floor on character effectiveness.

[MadBear]

By scaling it to number of players it means there's a floor on character effectiveness.

I dont' mean to be thick, but I'm still not seeing how that's any different then normal encounter design.

[Tanarii]

I haven't tried it, but basically it's like you're doubling a monster's HPs and then giving them permanent Action Surge. Not a good idea most of the time.It's taking two monsters, and letting the players only see one monster. And figuring the difficulty of the fight as if it was two monsters.

That's a genius idea. Or at least, inspired. Not sure how you figure it's a problem.


I dont' mean to be thick, but I'm still not seeing how that's any different then normal encounter design.
Depends on if you:
(1) design the encounter
(2) design the encounter for a specific party size and level
(3) design the encounter for a particular party's size and level.
(Personally, I usually do one of the first 2.)
If it scales with number of players present, it changes the first situations.

[Bubzors]

Used it more than a few times for "boss" encounters. I love it. Works extremely well and flexible enough to fit into almost any type of crazy encounter you want. Really makes a solo monster encounter interesting and dynamic

[SkipSandwich]

If we're talking about my Boss template specifically, the more special abilities like multiattack, breath weapons and spellcasting the base creature possesses, the less well it scales with more pc's, since they perform only a single standard attack or cantrip with each Boss Action. Additionally, it only has approximately twice the hit points of a standard creature of its type, so a party of 6+ will hardly notice the difference. As well, though they will receive a little extra chip damage in the process due to Boss Actions, players aren't really any more likely to die than before unless they entered the fight already at low health, though I would recommend taking advantage of the extra movement to 'bounce' between players as much as possible on each Boss Action, since it serves the dual purpose of keeping all the player's on thier toes as well as spreading the damage around more evenly.

[CircleOfTheRock]

I haven't tried it, but basically it's like you're doubling a monster's HPs and then giving them permanent Action Surge. Not a good idea most of the time.

From what I've heard from people who did try it, it's pretty clunky and not well-balanced, but sometime it can work as an encounter.

Honestly, if you wanted to do this "caster, then feral", encounter, you could simply take an appropriately beefy orc with Spellcasting, then give them a power like a Barbarian's rage during phase 2.

I suppose you want this to be a pure solo encounter?
'Tis nothing like that!
I admit in the basic application it's a bit like that, but after that it works well, and better than if you just put down, say, a feral and a caster orc to fight the party, as opposed to a 'Paragon' feral/caster orc.