PF - How to Craft a Pantheon?

[unseenmage]

Because building just one god is so passe.
Iron Gods AP spoilers contained herein, you have been warned.

What I am looking for is an extrapolation on the process presented in the last book of the Iron Gods AP, The Divinity Drive.

Assume the homeworld where Numerian space tech originates has been found and claimed by the PCs. Assume the process for crafting a deity is known as well.
Assume tech artifacts all get their own Mythic item creation feats.

What does the god crafting process look like?
How should Memory Facets be priced?
What of the required Computer Core and Divinity Drive?

The AP itself suggests allowing PCs to attempt to craft new Memory Facets to enable new granted domains.

One assumes that without worshippers a crafted proto deity wouldnt be much more than a glorified robot.


If you're curious, this idea springs from an IRL Mythic Iron Gods campaign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?470947-Madness-Such-As-This-Clockwork-Spacewhales) where the PCs have repaired the crashed ship and taken to the stars.
We've claimed the ship's homeworld and are gunning to end the Dominion of Black for good. No small task.
This thread is to help me hammer out ideas and to inform our GM.

The tech artifact Extinction Wave Device does what I'm looking for, but on too small a scale. The Dominion of Black is a truly vast organization possibly commanding Dyson Spheres even (in our game anyway).
So I got to wondering if what I needed wasn't a deity or ten to get the job done.

Some good PF deities info here (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/102119/is-it-possible-to-create-a-simulacrum-of-your-deity).
Here too. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/35859/are-there-mechanics-to-make-your-own-deities)

Talking through the process. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22739248&postcount=15)
Lists of Demigods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22745815&postcount=17)

[unseenmage]

Ideas for gods part one.
Ideas for Demigods
Each is a Mythic Rank 10 (http://paizo.com/pathfinderrpg/prd/mythicAdventures/mythicMonsters.html), Robot (http://archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Myrmidon%20Robot), Aggregate AI (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/aggregate-template-cr-1/).

Imitari
God of Imitation
Simulacrum, Mimic, Doppelganger, Alter Ego, Trompe L'oeil, etc.
Favored Weapon: ???
Herald: ???
Domains: ???
Base Creature: Doppelganger Amalgam Mimic
Integrated Weapon: ???

Unio
God of Amalgamation
Amalgam Template made manifest. (Is there a PF version of the old 3.x psionic Fusion power?)
Favored Weapon: double weapons
Herald: ???
Domains: ???
Base Creature: Chimera or chimera-like creature.
Integrated Weapon: ???

Anhomalos
God of Mutagens
Makes miraculous mutagen possible.
Favored Weapon: splash weapons
Herald: Mutant templated ooze maybe?
Domains: ???
Base Creature: Medium Animated Object Numerian Fluid (aka mutagen)
Integrated Weapon: ???

Gemynd
God of Archive
Maintains library of all expired sentient Construct minds and commands on mechanus.
Favored Weapon: ???
Herald: ???
Domains: ???
Base Creature: Clockwork Librarian (original base is Human Expert lvl8)
Integrated Weapon: ???

Vafra
God of the Extinction Wave
Responsible for making the Dominion of Black extinct.
Favored Weapon: grenades
Herald: ???
Domains: Large Animated Object Extinction Wave Device (1,000 lbs puts it at large size)
Integrated Weapon: Extinction Wave Device

[Jormengand]

Well, first you need to pay a third of the pantheon's price in raw materials... now, how good is your "Craft (Pantheon)" skill? :smalltongue:

[unseenmage]

Well, first you need to pay a third of the pantheon's price in raw materials... now, how good is your "Craft (Pantheon)" skill? :smalltongue:

Rusty at best. Has been a while since I skimmed the PF deities, let alone read Deities and Demigods. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Have you tried the Paizo boards themselves? This is pretty deep-dive stuff; you might even get attention from the designers of that AP.

(Also it sounds like your campaign might be creeping into Starfinder territory :smalltongue: )

[unseenmage]

Done and done. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ut7d?How-to-Craft-a-Pantheon) And Starfinder's not really what we're after. Thanks though.

[Psyren]

Done and done. And Starfinder's not really what we're after. Thanks though.

That last part was meant to be facetious, hence the emoji.

[unseenmage]

That last part was meant to be facetious, hence the emoji.

Apologies, am on my phone so tiny emoji is even tinier. I completely missed it.

[unseenmage]

Okay, so after a bit of Googling and reading up it looks like demigod is the highest caliber thing players are reasonsbly supposed to become, fight, or make. Which isn't to say that won't still do the trick.

Demigods can grant spells and have CRs in the 30 to 40 range. More than enough go juice for what I have in mind.
Aaaand, setting the created demigod loose to seek true divinity on its own as an NPC creates all sorts of delicious opportunities for the GM.

[Calthropstu]

I am not sure of the dc of your craft(pantheon) check but I am pretty sure it'll be ungodly high...

[noob]

Is the craft pantheon check done by the player or the character?

[unseenmage]

Either way they first have to roll a Cha based check to emulate being the GM.

[noob]

Is it use plot device?

[unseenmage]

Probably, and you get a bonus if you have enough ranks in Knowledge Fiat.

[unseenmage]

Demigods can grant spells and have domains but can they have favored weapons? Have divine heralds (http://archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Arcanotheign)?

The nuts and bolts of Divinity's plan seems to go as follows...

Divinity Drive for power. It warps reality to do its thing, seems perverting this to power semigodhood wasn't much of a stretch.

Core Computer for generating worship via simulations. Without stats or pricing it would seem that one futurespacetech supercomputer is a tech artifact.

Memory Facets (or tech version of this wondrous item? Mnemonic Repository from Pathfinder #112: The Whisper Out of Time pg. 73?) for Domain selection (up to 4 or 5), alignment selection, and personality selection.
These are given a 5,000gp price in one book and it is suggested at the end that players coukd make custom ones for alternate Domain access.
Additionally, there is a memory draining robot which stores those memories in crystals. IIRC when you fight one it is at least suggested that the Memory Facets are created by this creature.

Finally the process requires boatloads of Know Religion.

Also assumes these tech artifacts are craftable via custom mythic feats (allowed by our GM as stated in the OP) or Simulacrum of Animated Object of the desired tech artifact.

Demigods would be left to seek true divinity on their own. Finding planets whose native populations can be awakened and indoctrinated should help. As could populating planets with sentient Constructs.

As for the actual base creature...
Mythic Rank 10, Robot, Aggregate AI, of an appropriate base monster.
(At our table we treat the Robot subtype as a simple template.)
I was considering adding Amalgam Ghost or Trompe L'oeil for their Rejuvenation special quality then was reminded that Mythic creatures are cobbled together by strapping assorted monster abilities to a base creature chassis already. I'll just add Rejuvenation at that point in the process.

This way the demigod is mythic, tech, is unbodied, and is nigh unkillable.
Upon achieving true divinity it can become whatever it wants/needs to be.

And yes, I intend to grant them free will and set them loose. All I'll be doing is giving them programming for alignment, personality, and an agenda in line with my own.


Another random thought I had was to make 10,000 or so generic mythic demigod robots and send them all to try the Test of the Starstone (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Test_of_the_Starstone) to play the odds.
It could be amusing at the least.

I will try to sit down sometime within the next week or so and plug some actual numbers into this process.

[noob]

Likewise, you can add the robot subtype (and traits) to any existing construct to transform it into something created by technology. Adding the robot subtype to a construct does not affect its CR. A single construct cannot possess both the robot and the clockwork subtype.
So technically it was already nearly a template(except that you could not apply it to creatures that does not exists yet so it must be at the end of the template chain)
Turning it in a template just change the order in which the change and the templates can be applied.

[unseenmage]

So technically it was already nearly a template(except that you could not apply it to creatures that does not exists yet so it must be at the end of the template chain)
Turning it in a template just change the order in which the change and the templates can be applied.
I am aware. Is why we use it as such at our table. :smallcool:

Right now I'm definitely stuck on just what superpowers a demigod should/could have? My fellow players, the GM, and I have agreed that building these things as Mythic Robot AI is the best starting point. From there we'll add an appropriate number of HD and superpowers until we reach the CR we're aiming for via the Monster Creation rules (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monsterCreation.html).
I would absolutely LOVE to generate a Demigod template extrapolated from existing demigod statblocks and canon references to demigod superpowers. Doubtful that will be forthcoming though unless someone else decides to share a more comprehensive understanding of the subject material than I have. :smallfrown: I've already got three or four big projects in the works and too many irons in the fire IRL to boot.

Here's what superpowers I have in mind for them so far. This list wouldn't be for all demigods, just these particular created magitech ones.

CR30, 36HD
[insert base creature here]
Aggregate AI
Mythic Rank 10
Robot

Divine SourceM (Su)
Favored Weapon (Su)
Freedom of Movement (Su)
Herald (Su)
Innate Spellcasting (Su)
Integrated Weaponry (Ex)
Possession, Greater (Sp)
Rejuvenation (Su)
Starflight (Su)
Superior Optics (Ex)
True Seeing (Su)
Vulnerable to critical hits (Ex)
Vulnerable to electricity (Ex)



I found this list of PF demigods (https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Demigod) and was curious as to how accurate/comprehensive it is?
From the looks of it there's not going to be much to assist me mechanically to be found in the list. It could still prove useful however, or so I'm hoping.
I'm trying to get a feel for whether there's a commonality to the status of "demigod" mechanically or not. Failing that I'm curious just how powerful something is before "demigod" status is conferred to it.

Here's a list of what printed demigods I could find.
Achaekek, the Mantis God (http://archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Achaekek,%20the%20Man tis%20God)
Great Old One, Cthulhu (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/great-old-ones/great-old-one-cthulhu/)
Demon Lord, Kostchtchie (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-lords/demon-lord-kostchtchie/)
Demon Lord, Nocticula (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-lords/demon-lord-nocticula/)
Demon Lord, Pazuzu (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-lords/demon-lord-pazuzu/)
Great Old One, Tawil at’Umr (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/great-old-ones/great-old-one-tawil-atumr/)

[noob]

Many demigods are weaker than monsters straight from the monster manuals who are not demigods.
Achaekek, the Mantis God for example is so weak it is hilarious.(a straight gunslinger can often just pwn stare it to unconsciousness)
Why are most of the demigods lacking casting?
I mean they get wide arrays of slas but that is not nearly enough.
They need better action economy and spell-casting(for increased versatility for example getting something for not being one round killed by a gunslinger who have a better initiative or by a small army a wizard crafts in his free time).
If you only have the right for first party templates and the robot template you can go for the following: there is a 20 level class allowing to become an ai inside of a robot and any intelligent creature can take that class.(that class was the Psychic when it takes Artificial Ascension)
So you can combine the powers of two creatures by doing the following: make creature X become a robot through Trompe L’oeil and robot template then give creature Y 20 levels in the mentioned class then make it enter creature X
you can combine powers of more creatures by repeating the process by taking creature X as the new creature Y and taking a new creature as a creature X.(you could even argue that due to the description of the ai template the robot itself gets the Artificial Ascension ability thus not needing to add 20 levels in psychic to the creature X for having the creature x upload itself as an ai with all its powers and all your powers(because then you will be an ai within an ai))
Gibbering Abomination,gibbering orb,stuff that gets extra actions and some demigods(for counting as a demigod) and some casters can make a really scaring creature.(when combined)

[unseenmage]

Many demigods are weaker than monsters straight from the monster manuals who are not demigods.
Achaekek, the Mantis God for example is so weak it is hilarious.(a straight gunslinger can often just pwn stare it to unconsciousness)
Why are most of the demigods lacking casting?
I mean they get wide arrays of slas but that is not nearly enough.
They need better action economy and spell-casting(for increased versatility for example getting something for not being one round killed by a gunslinger who have a better initiative or by a small army a wizard crafts in his free time).
If you only have the right for first party templates and the robot template you can go for the following: there is a 20 level class allowing to become an ai inside of a robot and any creature can take that class.
So you can combine the powers of two creatures by doing the following: make creature X become a robot through Trompe L’oeil and robot template then give creature Y 20 levels in the mentioned class then make it enter creature X
you can combine powers of more creatures by repeating the process by taking creature X as the new creature Y and taking a new creature as a creature X.
Gibbering Abomination,gibbering orb,stuff that gets extra actions and some demigods(for counting as a demigod) and some casters can make a really scaring creature.(when combined)

That recombination process certainly sounds like one way to exult a given creature to PunPun levels of power. We might even use that for at least one of the created demigods in our game, thanks. I'll let the GM know about it.

As for what we have access to, basically whatever we want so long as we work for it a bit. We're already building any Construct, even ones that don't technically exist, via the Prcie by CR rules found on the Building and Modifying Constructs page. And we can already make tech artifacts so we have access to the ability to make androids, turn people into AI, download AI into people, etc.
We even have a spacedock where we've built the warship version of the research vessel from the end of the Iron Gods AP. Our research vessel still houses the deity we made at the end of the AP though.
Thanks to my swarms of Reclamation Mechanisms (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20457305&postcount=22) and Cooperative Crafting we can build and nonMythic, nonEpic tech, magic item, or mundane item up to a certain mass in about 2 days on a fast time demiplane, 4 days in normal time.

So yeah, building demigods really isn't that big of a step up. :smallbiggrin: If we were already 20th and had our capstone abilities I would probably just push to be building actual deities and have that apotheosis be our transition into epic levels. Still might come to think of it.

[noob]

That recombination process certainly sounds like one way to exult a given creature to PunPun levels of power. We might even use that for at least one of the created demigods in our game, thanks. I'll let the GM know about it.

As for what we have access to, basically whatever we want so long as we work for it a bit. We're already building any Construct, even ones that don't technically exist, via the Prcie by CR rules found on the Building and Modifying Constructs page. And we can already make tech artifacts so we have access to the ability to make androids, turn people into AI, download AI into people, etc.
We even have a spacedock where we've built the warship version of the research vessel from the end of the Iron Gods AP. Our research vessel still houses the deity we made at the end of the AP though.
Thanks to my swarms of Reclamation Mechanisms (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20457305&postcount=22) and Cooperative Crafting we can build and nonMythic, nonEpic tech, magic item, or mundane item up to a certain mass in about 2 days on a fast time demiplane, 4 days in normal time.

So yeah, building demigods really isn't that big of a step up. :smallbiggrin: If we were already 20th and had our capstone abilities I would probably just push to be building actual deities and have that apotheosis be our transition into epic levels. Still might come to think of it.

The worst is that if you are a psychic you can actually do that without needing to grind(due to the discovery I had about the interaction between aggregate and the Artificial Ascension ability) you just need to get access to all the robots of which you want to get the powers.(and the time for uploading yourself to a robot and for making that robot upload itself to another robot and so on)
I think it is one of the best cap stones if you have access to a lot of robots.(also it is somehow fun to have the best forcefield and the ability to shoot rockets on a small robot if you have access to only the normal robots)

[Florian]

I found this list of PF demigods (https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Demigod) and was curious as to how accurate/comprehensive it is?

Not really up to date or comprehensive.

The concept of "demigod" was more or less entirely dropped and the dividing line is now between "True Deity" or "Mythic", with the former having no stats and the later starting with "hero deities" (check Distant Shores for this)

[noob]

Not really up to date or comprehensive.
The concept of "demigod" was more or less entirely dropped and the dividing line is now between "True Deity" or "Mythic", with the former having no stats and the later starting with "hero deities" (check Distant Shores for this)
Here those creatures are not mythic thus they stay demigods as they are not related to the mythic system I believe.
It is one of their powers to be a demigod so unless they are changed they would not lose it(for example in the mantis god immortality it is specified that demigods can kill the mantis god)

[Florian]

Here those creatures are not mythic thus they stay demigods as they are not related to the mythic system I believe.

You might want to check the newest sources, like Bestiary 6 and Book of the Damned, especially the Appendices.

[noob]

You might want to check the newest sources, like Bestiary 6 and Book of the Damned, especially the Appendices.

So do the mantis god immortality changes or does it gets kill able only by statless creatures because of the removal of demigods?

[Florian]

So do the mantis god immortality changes or does it gets kill able only by statless creatures because of the removal of demigods?

AFAIK, Achaekaek and some others got upgraded to "full divinity" status, while the Mythic rank "godlings" ceased to be the representatives of their portfolios, so in essence getting removed from the "cosmic" game.

Edit: The Starfinder reference is a good one, as it picks up on Casandalee no being able to hold on as her one but having to merge into Triune...

[unseenmage]

AFAIK, Achaekaek and some others got upgraded to "full divinity" status, while the Mythic rank "godlings" ceased to be the representatives of their portfolios, so in essence getting removed from the "cosmic" game.

Edit: The Starfinder reference is a good one, as it picks up on Casandalee no being able to hold on as her one but having to merge into Triune...
So, for PF canon, is Casandalee a deity or a demigod?

[Florian]

So, for PF canon, is Casandalee a deity or a demigod?

Neither. The "Iron God" (also: "The Created") was never more than a "Mythic", as was "Epoch" ("The Transcendent"), a plant-spanning AI that was especially developed to become a god (hint-hint). Both had to merge with the already existing full divinity Brigh ("The Precursor") to form Triune ("The All-Code"), a process that dissolved the Divinity Drive and turned FTL travel into a regular set of physics by creating and opening up the Drift (Starfinder ships use plane shift to cross interstellar distances. Asmodeans used "Helldrives", Kuthites "Shadow Engines" and Iomedans used their "Cathedral Engines" to travel to their deities home plane and back. Then Triune came and created a new transitive plane, the Drift, that could be used with technology alone).

[unseenmage]

Neither. The "Iron God" (also: "The Created") was never more than a "Mythic", as was "Epoch" ("The Transcendent"), a plant-spanning AI that was especially developed to become a god (hint-hint). Both had to merge with the already existing full divinity Brigh ("The Precursor") to form Triune ("The All-Code"), a process that dissolved the Divinity Drive and turned FTL travel into a regular set of physics by creating and opening up the Drift (Starfinder ships use plane shift to cross interstellar distances. Asmodeans used "Helldrives", Kuthites "Shadow Engines" and Iomedans used their "Cathedral Engines" to travel to their deities home plane and back. Then Triune came and created a new transitive plane, the Drift, that could be used with technology alone).

That is still all according to Starfinder canon though right? Or is there officially no separation between the two IPs?

[Florian]

That is still all according to Starfinder canon though right? Or is there officially no separation between the two IPs?

The one builds straight up on the other, so..