Advice on best 6-person party for Dungeon Crawling (no feats or multi-classing)

[Zerubbabel]

All, please I am seeking input and advice on the following. This is more just for my overall understanding of the current balance of the characters (synergy between them). Especially given the release of Xanather's guide, which I've kind of finished getting my head around.

Question: Most powerful/capable 6-person party for Dungeon Crawl (race & class/sub-class only)

Assumptions (Sorry these are some rather old-school/conservative rules)
1) Assume party is starting at level 1 and proceeding to level 10 in this setting
2) no feats allowed
3) no multi-classing allowed
4) HP's are granted at maximum amount each level, not rolled for
5) No double up class/race in the group
6) Only races allowed from the Players Handbook allowed
7) Classes/Sub classes can be from any official release for 5e

Everything else goes including all currently released official books.

This for me is a question around 6-person party synergy using more restrictive/basic rules for newer players, but allowing them to thrive with a powerful party and really enjoy the game.

I have suggested the following for a great powerful/synergy team but know the depth of knowledge on this forum in particular is unbelievable so really seeking some input on this:

Initially
1) Half-orc Barbarian (Zealot)
2) [Red] Dragonborn Paladin (oath of Vengeance)
3) High Elf Eldritch Knight
4) Mountain Dwarf Cleric (Life school)
5) Half-elf Bard (Lore)
6) Wood-elf Ranger (Gloom Stalker)

(The below reflects after updated feedback from members)

1) Abjuration Wizard
2) Ancestral Barbarian
3) Paladin (ancients or devotion)
4) Arcane Trickster Rogue or Bard (lore or glamour)
5) (other) potentially Ranger Gloom Stalker/Sorcerer/Druid
6) (other)

[Laserlight]

1. Dwarf Battlemaster
2. Half orc Bearbarian
3. Half elf Lore bard
4. Gnome Divination wizard
5. Human Life cleric
6. Dragonborn Devotion paladin

YMMV

[Breashios]

This for me is a question around 6-person party synergy using more restrictive/basic rules for newer players, but allowing them to thrive with a powerful party and really enjoy the game.


New players are going to most enjoy the game if they have a particular interest in a character concept already and then find the adventure utilizes their particular strengths and that the input their character provides in role-play and combat encounters proves valuable. It matters much less how much synergy there is between the characters' abilities or how powerful they are.

If some players have strong concepts and others do not you may guide the latter toward races and classes that will fill a role not covered by one of the other characters. With six players it will be hard to not have overlapping expertise, so it is more important to remember to move the spotlight around and incorporate one or another character's backstory into the ongoing plot.

Otherwise the OP is an interesting exercise, but more for a high challenge campaign than a starter. I think your suggestion is as good as any other, maybe a little light on aoe to clear out the chaff in a mass battle, but you probably want to stay away from large numbers of enemies anyway with a starter group. Good Luck.

[Strangways]

All, please I am seeking input and advice on the following. This is more just for my overall understanding of the current balance of the characters (synergy between them). Especially given the release of Xanather's guide, which I've kind of finished getting my head around.

Question: Most powerful/capable 6-person party for Dungeon Crawl (race & class/sub-class only)

Assumptions (Sorry these are some rather old-school/conservative rules)
1) Assume party is starting at level 1 and proceeding to level 10 in this setting
2) no feats allowed
3) no multi-classing allowed
4) HP's are granted at maximum amount each level, not rolled for
5) No double up class/race in the group
6) Only races allowed from the Players Handbook allowed
7) Classes/Sub classes can be from any official release for 5e

Everything else goes including all currently released official books.

This for me is a question around 6-person party synergy using more restrictive/basic rules for newer players, but allowing them to thrive with a powerful party and really enjoy the game.

I have suggested the following for a great powerful/synergy team but know the depth of knowledge on this forum in particular is unbelievable so really seeking some input on this:

1) Half-orc Barbarian (Zealot)
2) [Red] Dragonborn Paladin (oath of Vengeance)
3) High Elf Eldritch Knight
4) Mountain Dwarf Cleric (Life school)
5) Half-elf Bard (Lore)
6) Wood-elf Ranger (Gloom Stalker)

That composition look OK, but it seems a bit heavy on front-line melee types. Personally, I'd swap out the Eldritch Knight for a Wizard. Right now you have no Arcane Caster and that can be a significant handicap in certain kinds of situations. Also, I'd note that your Dragonborn doesn't have Darkvision, whereas the full strength of the Gloomstalker's Umbral Sight ability requires total darkness. That's not an insurmountable obstacle, but it will be a bit awkward.

[BeefGood]

If max HP is granted at every level, then after Level 3 or so the party composition won’t matter. They’ll stomp everything.

[Gardakan]

1) Half-orc Barbarian (Zealot)
2) [Red] Dragonborn Paladin (oath of Vengeance)
3) High Elf Eldritch Knight
4) Mountain Dwarf Cleric (Life school)
5) Half-elf Bard (Lore)
6) Wood-elf Ranger (Gloom Stalker)

Overall this team can go a long way.

I would maybe replace the Eldritch Knight with something more skill-monkey oriented. The party lacks a real arcane caster for being 6 ... A Sorcerer that blast from distance could be quite in a good spot. A versatile Wizard as well.

With a Cleric, a Barbarian and a Paladin, you have a decent frontline. The Bard and the Ranger are sure to make use of their abilities from a distance. The Arcanist could simply rule supreme above his teammates with a dedicated debuff build or even a blaster. A mix of both. The Eldritch Knight just feels short due to the Paladin and Barbarian being already good on their own and the lack of a powerful arcanist in the mix.

[Gardakan]

If max HP is granted at every level, then after Level 3 or so the party composition won’t matter. They’ll stomp everything.

Unless the challenge is matching this ruling. A harsher campaign can be perfectly fine with maxed HP every level.

[Nidgit]

1)Mountain Dwarf Totem Barbarian (take Wolf at Level 3)
2)Half-Elf Ancients Paladin
3)Wood Elf Gloomstalker
4) Hill Dwarf Land Druid (Underdark)
5) Forest Gnome Wizard (probably Evocation or Divination)
6) Drow Lore Bard

Extremely formidable pair of tanks with good synergy, a fantastic scout, great control, buffs, and healing, and a good blaster. An Arcane Trickster or Way of the Hand Monk could potentially slot in for the Ranger or Druid instead.

[Zerubbabel]

That composition look OK, but it seems a bit heavy on front-line melee types. Personally, I'd swap out the Eldritch Knight for a Wizard. Right now you have no Arcane Caster and that can be a significant handicap in certain kinds of situations. Also, I'd note that your Dragonborn doesn't have Darkvision, whereas the full strength of the Gloomstalker's Umbral Sight ability requires total darkness. That's not an insurmountable obstacle, but it will be a bit awkward.
Thank you!
Good feedback!
1) Sub in half-elf for Paladin to ensure effectiveness in dark
2) Sub in Wizard (divination) gnome, for Eldritch knight (or include as 7th player)

[Biggstick]

How have we not see a single Rogue in any of these Dungeon Crawling team builds?! Oh well, I'll be the first.

1. High Elf Arcane Trickster Rogue.
2. Half Orc Devotion Paladin (SnB).
3. Mountain Dwarf Abjuration Wizard.
4. Half Elf Light Cleric.
5. Stout Halfling Gloom Stalker Ranger (Archery).
6. Human Ancestral Guardians Barbarian (SnB).

So if we're crawling through Dungeons, we need the ability to disarm traps. We particularly are going to want the ability to do it from a distance. Arcane Tricksters got us covered there. Our Arcane Trickster is also going to have Expertise in Thieves Tools, Perception, Investigation, and Arcana. I can't remember if an official ruling was put out for it, but in games I play/DM, you can have a "spotter" for identifying spells being cast. This Arcane Trickster would act as a spotter for the Abjuration Wizard in regards to Counterspelling as the game progresses further forward.

Working in concert with the Rogue is the Halfling Gloom Stalker. This Halfling can see in the dark, and if we were putting backgrounds on here as well, the Halfling would have proficiency in Thieves Tools as well. Being able to drop Pass w/o Trace on top of the Rogue (and the whole party), and pump out solid ranged damage from the shadows makes for a solid damage contribution to the party. Also, handing out Goodberries means everyone can heal an ally.

Our social pillar is carried by the Half Orc Devotion Paladin and the Half Elf Light Cleric. Utilize that bump to Charisma for the Half Elf, take advantage of the natural Charisma of the Paladin, and act as the vehicle to drive social interactions forward. These two also share Bless duty, with the Paladin/Barbarian/Rogue/Ranger being top targets (priority based on the combat at hand).

During combat, the Light Cleric and the Abjuration Wizard are both the ranged magical artillery, the damage enablers, the buffers, and the debuffers. Our casters are defensive-minded, having abilities like Warding Flare and Arcane Ward, but also have the ability to drop two Fireballs on a turn. These two have some pretty nasty burst potential when working together.

Lastly our primary melee characters. During combat, or before, our Human Barbarian gets Light cast upon something they're wearing. This Barbarian wants all the attention. The Paladin provides combat support through Auras that help with the Barbarian's natural weaknesses (saving throws, charm, and fear effects). The Barbarian does their part in protecting the party though, through the use of it's Ancestral Guardians. Even if the enemy isn't focusing the Barbarian, they can use these babies to cause a big bad's Attacks to become much less effective against the rest of the party, all of whom already have lots of defensive tools for themselves and allies to provide support. They're also able to prevent damage on allies, which makes it easier to progress when you don't have to wait on patching an ally up.

The biggest weakness I see with this party is the lack of a Face with Expertise in a social skill. Otherwise, this is an extremely self-sufficient, defensively built party that can protect itself very effectively while delving through dungeons. And they're not to shabby in other modes of the game either.

[Zerubbabel]

How have we not see a single Rogue in any of these Dungeon Crawling team builds?! Oh well, I'll be the first.

1. High Elf Arcane Trickster Rogue.
2. Half Orc Devotion Paladin (SnB).
3. Mountain Dwarf Abjuration Wizard.
4. Half Elf Light Cleric.
5. Stout Halfling Gloom Stalker Ranger (Archery).
6. Human Ancestral Guardians Barbarian (SnB).



I was reading about Arcane Trickster again last night, great sub-class. GREAT to see my favorite race Stout Halfling in the mix.

[strangebloke]

Well, conventional wisdom is that you need area control (tanks, wizards), single target lockdown (open hand monk, ancestral barbarian), single target DPS (archers for consistency, paladins for burst), and a good deal of flex. (rogues, bards, wizards)

lastly you have the role of support, which is typically a cleric, sorcerer, Paladin or bard. Imo, everyone should be a support on some level.

This is a dungeon crawl, so some classes that you typically think of as adding flex really don't. A ranger's survival skills and a subtle sorcerer's social Fu are meaningless here.

You also need a balance between consistency and burst so that a long adventuring day or a particularly bad encounter does not throw you.

I'd go:
Open hand monk (single target DPR and lockdown)
Dex-based Ancients Paladin (single target burst, support, tanking)
Ancestral barbarian (single target lockdown, tanking, benefits more from full hp rolls)
Abjuration wizard (area control, flex, support)
Glamor bard w/expertise in stealth and thieves tools(support, flex, area control)
Draconic sorcerer w/ twin, empower, and heighten (single target lockdown, support, area control)

Dragon? Sorcerer casts fly, monk knocks him out of the sky. Barbarian neuters his damage. Paladin destroys him.

Tucker's kobolds? Glamor bard keeps the party moving, wizard makes a straight path through the chaos. Paladin keeps people saving against poison and other traps.

Small army? Sorcerer polymorphs barbarian and monk and starts pumping fireballs. Wizard is dropping hypnotic pattern and fireball. Glamor is also stunning whole groups.

Lich? Between the paladin and the abjurer, the lich will be lucky if any of his spells do anything.

Traps? Scouting? Sudden ambush? Glamor bard can move everyone on her turn, and she has plenty of skills and spells to get her through.

I could easily see swapping the bard for a rogue, but to me the rogue is too greedy a class. It's very defensive and needs to take advantage of opportunities, making her little reactive. Also, mantle of inspiration is awesome.

Healing spells are for chumps. Wizard, sorcerer, and Paladin got ya covered.

[Zerubbabel]

Sizing up all the feedback just on classes, I'm seeing this synergy being most popular (in terms of power/self sufficiency)

Abjuration Wizard
Ancestral Barbarian
Paladin (ancients or devotion)
Arcane Trickster Rogue or Bard (lore or glamour)
(other) potentially Ranger Gloom Stalker/Sorcerer/Druid
(other)

[Gardakan]

Sizing up all the feedback just on classes, I'm seeing this synergy being most popular (in terms of power/self sufficiency)

Abjuration Wizard
Ancestral Barbarian
Paladin (ancients or devotion)
Arcane Trickster Rogue or Bard (lore or glamour)
(other) potentially Ranger Gloom Stalker/Sorcerer/Druid
(other)

For the last three : Bard (Glamour) (easily the most supportive ability in the game, free movement on a reaction... yeah sure).
Sorcerer (Divine Soul)
Druid (Moon)

You have everything you need in here. The Druid - Bard can virtually play any role to help the team. Sorcerer is the main healer, Wizard is the main debuff, you have a huge frontline (with the Druid to back it up). The Bard enables a good setup.

[Biggstick]

For the last three : Bard (Glamour) (easily the most supportive ability in the game, free movement on a reaction... yeah sure).
Sorcerer (Divine Soul)
Druid (Moon)

You have everything you need in here. The Druid - Bard can virtually play any role to help the team. Sorcerer is the main healer, Wizard is the main debuff, you have a huge frontline (with the Druid to back it up). The Bard enables a good setup.

Bards can't take Expertise in Thieves Tools per RAW. Arcane Tricksters can take Expertise in Thieves Tools, and disarm the trap from 30' away. This, plus being able to grab Perception/Investigation Expertise (and something else) by level 6 is the reason you're bringing the Arcane Trickster.

The Bard or Druid is definitely helpful. I would also throw Cleric into this group of support classes/archetypes that are extremely valuable in a Dungeon Crawl environment. But none of these three classes are as able to consistently disarm traps as an Arcane Trickster is.

I understand it's a bit narrow-minded, but if we're diving into a dungeon, we want to be able to pick locks. Arcane Tricksters just do it better then the rest. And they're definitely worth the slot on this 6 person team.

[Gardakan]

Bards can't take Expertise in Thieves Tools per RAW. Arcane Tricksters can take Expertise in Thieves Tools, and disarm the trap from 30' away. This, plus being able to grab Perception/Investigation Expertise (and something else) by level 6 is the reason you're bringing the Arcane Trickster.

The Bard or Druid is definitely helpful. I would also throw Cleric into this group of support classes/archetypes that are extremely valuable in a Dungeon Crawl environment. But none of these three classes are as able to consistently disarm traps as an Arcane Trickster is.

I understand it's a bit narrow-minded, but if we're diving into a dungeon, we want to be able to pick locks. Arcane Tricksters just do it better then the rest. And they're definitely worth the slot on this 6 person team.

They will find other ways around traps then just triggering them one by one, I assure you.

As for covering the Cleric needs, the Sorcerer with Divine Soul does his job, but way better (since he can Twin healing word and have access to the most terrifics concentration buffs of both spelllist + Counterspell for good measures).

[Biggstick]

They will find other ways around traps then just triggering them one by one, I assure you.

As for covering the Cleric needs, the Sorcerer with Divine Soul does his job, but way better (since he can Twin healing word and have access to the most terrifics concentration buffs of both spelllist + Counterspell for good measures).

I would argue that Mass Healing Word does a similar job to Twin Healing Word, and that having the versatility of two people to use Bless is stronger (assuming there is a Paladin within the group), but it's really not that big of a deal.

I'm a fan of the defensive capabilities a Cleric brings to the party. Bringing things like Lesser/Greater Restoration, Revivify spells, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Bless, Guidance, etc, really eases a burden on the party. Not having a Cleric capable of dealing with a party member who looked at a Medusa sucks, and the same is true of any other effect which requires that sort of assistance. I'm also a big fan of Ritual Casting, which a Cleric has on a Sorcerer. I'm also a big fan of being able to change out spells based on the situation presented to me, meaning the Cleric has an added level of versatility compared to the Sorcerer.

But to each their own. And a Sorcerer will do just fine in being able to pick up a party member(s) who has fallen to 0 hp.

[Zerubbabel]

What about a Tempest (Tesla) Cleric?

[Biggstick]

What about a Tempest (Tesla) Cleric?

I like Tempest Clerics, but Thunderwave and Call Lightning aren't necessarily the best spells for Dungeon Crawling. One makes a ton of noise, and the other requires a pretty large amount of space to actually work. That's my only gripe really with using Tempest Clerics on this particular team.

Otherwise, I think you're pretty spot on with your initial assessment of people grabbing a Wizard, Paladin, and Barbarian of some type for their dungeon-delving team. There just seems to be differences of opinion regarding the last three members.

[that_one_kobold]

this is VERY suspiciously similar to a campaign i'm gonna be in very soon... the only difference I've seen is the max hp/level. i'm even planning on playing a half orc zealot barb. How very odd.

[Zerubbabel]

I haven't brought "Out of the Abyss" into the conversation yet (and it's not part of my original question) but having read it almost from front to back, I would think the Gloom Stalker would be almost mandatory/deadly for that module?