The Definitive Wild Shape thread

[TheUser]

I see and hear a lot of questions surrounding the Druid Wild Shape feature and how it interacts with class features and racial bonuses.

"Does this racial bonus work with wild shape?"

"Do I still have sunlight sensitivity in wild shape?"

"What feats can I use while I am transformed?"

"Do ability score improvements still apply?"

All of them spawn from one rules point surrounding Wild Shape


You retain the benefit of any features from your class,
race, or other source and can use them if the new
form is physically capable of doing so. However, you
can't use any of your special senses, such as darkvision,
unless your new form also has that sense.

Already we can see that from a RAW perspective we get all the answers we need. But let's tackle an interesting one that might be a bit trickier to spot.

"Do I still have sunlight sensitivity in wild shape?"
The RAW answer is no.
Sunlight sensitivity is not a "benefit" and since wild shape dictates that benefits are what carry over and also that you the player can choose any of them; the wording says "any" instead of "any and all" hence you can choose not to carry it over.

The rest of the answers can be easily found not only in the rules but a specific Dragon Talk featuring Jeremy Crawford talking about Wild Shape wherein the crux of the any questions are answered with one sentence:




"This rule is written in a spirit of permissiveness; we actually want you to be able to use as many of your class features, racial traits, feats etc. as possible...." "With a limit based more on narrative than on game balance."


(http://edit.dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/chris-avellone-and-philip-daigle-planescape-torment-enhanced-edition 21m30s)

With a further clarification that unless you lack the anatomy that normally accompanies the feature you can use it when you wild shape.

Good examples

1) Arakocra's have wings allowing them to fly, if you wildshape into something that has no wings, you cannot fly.

2) The lizard folk's Natural Armor feature refer's to having "tough scaly skin" meaning that if you wildshape into anything that has skin, you'll retain this feature (so anything except elementals).

3) A Tabaxi's claw attack would not be available to a form that lacks claws (like a giant constrictor snake).

You start to understand the process, it's less about balance and far more about narrative.

"What about ASI or Feats that boost stats?"

This is where I think we're going to run into the bulk of the debate.

I would first have you all pay direct attention to the order in which the rules for wildshape are presented.



Your game Statistics are replaced by the Statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can't use them.

The word statistics is clarified in the dragon talk quoted prior. Essentially take on the stat block of the beast.

Many will claim that because of this, any ASI's to physical stats no longer apply in wild shape, however, the definition of "taking on the stat block of the creature" is absolutely crucial since it means that if you do this you wipe out any and all features you had prior. However because this is the first rule given it means all other rules are applied sequentially after this one. (Edit: ASI's are also a benefit of a class feature/race, meaning you retain them as per the prior quote)

The rule regarding class, race and other features comes after you replace your stat block meaning a benefit of being say...a mountain dwarf, which is having your strength and stamina increased by 2, now applies to your new wild shape stat block.

"So now my size reverts to my racial size and my walking speed reverts to my base walking speed?

No. As stated earlier, wild shape can only retain benefits and you choose which ones to keep. Your base size, your base height, weight, age and alignment are not benefits (with the exception of wood elves, who have their base speed listed as "Your base walking speed increases to 35ft").

"Doesn't allowing a player to be a Giant Wood Elf Octopus with 35ft walking speed or Bugbear-bear with +5ft reach overpowered?

The short answer is no. We've already seen how wild shape virtually trivializes low level encounters, adding this sort of thing just keeps it more relevant into the late game and diversifies the number of viable Moon Druid builds (this is the big key). Having more venues of cool interactions is at the heart of D&D and DM's always have access to the moonbeam spell if they don't like it. Additional strength, dexterity and constitution scores become neat racial bonuses for moon druids to consider and adds diversity to the game.

I'd say the best thing to do is be very diligent about how you read certain feats and features.

For starters, any ASI from class levels or feats (not race) comes with the caveat that it cannot increase a stat above 20, for which many animal forms have (mostly strength).

Secondly, there are feats which are worded very carefully to avoid abuse.
The Tough Feat for example has the wording "when you gain this feat" which means you aren't going to get the HP when you wild shape since you aren't actually gaining the feat, merely retaining it from before.

(However, the rule is designed to encourage and permit as much as possible, so in the spirit of that ruling you should allow a player to use it anyway!)

Meanwhile the Hill Dwarf feature of gaining +1 HP per level would definitely apply as would gaining maximum HP from constitution.

If you are extremely bothered by beefy wildshapes remember that by RAW it excludes healing your current HP to match increases in max HP (unlike the way the Aid spell does). So you can definitely let your players have a higher max HP, but since those benefits apply after your stat block is replaced you can simply make it hollow additional hitpoints that have yet to be healed (if you hate fun).

Again, we should realize that the ruling surrounding the "spirit of permissiveness" is the core of this and if we want to be a cool guy DM we should probably just allow it and have them wild shape into something at max HP, but if it really bothers you there is a RAW example of how increasing the max HP does not increase current HP but instead requires it to be healed (the Aid Spell).

What can we take away from this?

Wild shape is not meant to give you a power level of a beast that is CR X; it is meant to give you a baseline power of CR X and then apply bonuses from your class levels, features, pre-cast spells and abilities to enhance it further.

Treat Wild Shape forms as a baseline power with the intent that more is to be piled on. Smart players should be rewarded for doing research into cool interactions and opening up the door to cool and creative moon druids.

EDIT: One final piece to slip in there. Why should there be any arbitrary line drawn between ASI's and feats? Why does one race's features become more relevant and a handful of feats become useable? Is having +2 strength really more overpowered than having access to the sentinel feat when you can opportunity attack with a full round of beast damage? What about Mage Slayer, Mobile or Resillient? Is +2 strength from a moutain dwarf really incredible when put up next to a kobold's pack tactics ability?

[Tanarii]

Of course ASIs do not apply when wild shaped. That's just crazy talk. :smallconfused:

[TheUser]

Of course ASIs do not apply when wild shaped. That's just crazy talk. :smallconfused:

I applaud your cunning deconstruction, reasoning and logical abilities. I clearly am in the wrong about this whole thing and bow to your wisdom on the matter. /s

(have you considered that just because you don't like it doesn't actually mean it's wrong?)

EDIT: Also ASI's are technically a benefit from your class/race, so can you explain to me how they do not apply?

[Tanarii]

Because that's pretty much the opposite of 5e design philosophy. Having to track a bunch of fiddly numbers and add them in to every Wild Shape you make.

Mobile? Sure, no problem, that's an active thing you do. Tough or ASIs? Nope. Replaced by the stat block. KISS principle.

*Bows to applause.*
(I got a good laugh out of that btw. Good comeback. :smallbiggrin: )

[TheUser]

Because that's pretty much the opposite of 5e design philosophy. Having to track a bunch of fiddly numbers and add them in to every Wild Shape you make.

Mobile? Sure, no problem, that's an active thing you do. Tough or ASIs? Nope. Replaced by the stat block. KISS principle.

*Bows to applause.*
(I got a good laugh out of that btw. Good comeback. :smallbiggrin: )

So now you have to re-calculate your walking speed thanks to mobile? How is adding an ASI any different than adding to a walk speed or accounting for a different ability?

"Re-calculate walking speed? No problem. Re-calculate Strength score? NOT SIMPLE ENOUGH"

I am failing to see the distinction.

[Tanarii]

I was referring to the ability to avoid opportunity attacks from a creature you attacked via Mobile.

[TheUser]

I was referring to the ability to avoid opportunity attacks from a creature you attacked via Mobile.

Oh I see. You get one benefit from the feat but not the other, that's much simpler.

[Elminster298]

This isn't even worth point by point dissecting. You have made this entire thing far more complicated in an attempt to say that your personal interpretation is the only one.

1) Your mental stats stay the same as your original form.
2) Your physical stats change to those of the new form.
3) Any feature/ability that CAN be used by the new form IS used by the new form.

The Crawford ruling about the intention of the ability does not change the original wording of the ability about your new form's stats. Crawford has also stated in a Sage Advice that you retain Sunlight Sensitivity in any form that relies on eyes for sight so your "benefits only" and "choose which ones" argument falls apart entirely. If you are a DM, rule however you want to. However, don't try to make it seem like your way is the right and only way.

[TheUser]

This isn't even worth point by point dissecting. You have made this entire thing far more complicated in an attempt to say that your personal interpretation is the only one.

1) Your mental stats stay the same as your original form.
2) Your physical stats change to those of the new form.
3) Any feature/ability that CAN be used by the new form IS used by the new form.

The Crawford ruling about the intention of the ability does not change the original wording of the ability about your new form's stats.

Entirely true except the compulsory notion of your third point. Nowwhere does the rule imply you must take feats or features only that you retain any (as opposed to "any and all"). Which is funny because my interpretation adhere's to the rules to the letter. It's a unique interpretation if you consider literacy a unique way of interpreting things.


Crawford has also stated in a Sage Advice that you retain Sunlight Sensitivity in any form that relies on eyes for sight so your "benefits only" and "choose which ones" argument falls apart entirely. If you are a DM, rule however you want to. However, don't try to make it seem like your way is the right and only way.

I would say mine is the one which adheres to the rule as it's set out. It's pretty cut and dry that you only retain benefits from wild shaping since the wording isn't retain "any and all features" but instead specifically uses the words "any benefits" as opposed to "any and all benefits", and the only benefits you exclude are sensory based like darkvision (blind sight/sense would be another) and ones where your anatomy required are no longer present. Jeremy Crawford talking about the "spirit of the rule" and its permissiveness in a prepared audio interview and then faltering on something like the specifics in a tweet (like sunlight sensitivity not actually being a benefit) is entirely possible. He's also able to issue an errata to the word "benefit" but since there hasn't been one I can assume he simply has taken his RAI interpretation and tried to express why he feels his unique interpretation of sunlight sensitivity is accurate to the narrative. Again, one is a tweet (the sunlight sensitivity) and the other is a prepared interview with a mission statement regarding the ruling.

One would think that in a setting like adventure league it'd be important to establish a standard. I'm not trying to say "my interpretation is the best" I'm trying to say that this is what the rules say, this is what the game's designer has said and with this in mind it's important that drawing arbitrary lines of "this is ok, this is not" is going to get you as a DM into lots of trouble with the exception of sensory based features and lacking anatomy (which are explicitly outlined in the RAW).

[Dalebert]

EDIT: Also ASI's are technically a benefit from your class/race, so can you explain to me how they do not apply?

It's a case of specific overriding general. It's very specific about your physical stats being replaced by the creature's. So INT, WIS, and CHA ASIs will be retained but not STR, DEX, CON ones. Whatever your str, dex, con was before wildshaping is irrelevent.


Crawford has also stated in a Sage Advice that you retain Sunlight Sensitivity in any form that relies on eyes for sight...

So it's not a bug. It's a feature? That's just bonkers for a couple of reasons. First, it's not a feature. It's a flaw. The ability to see well in the daylight is based on the senses of an eagle. A drow turned eagle would lose his 120 darkvision and gain the amazing daytime visual ability of an eagle. The drow is supposed to only retain the flaws of his drow senses but not the benefit of his drow senses?

Secondly, senses are the one feature that you lose, and a sensitivity is based on your senses. You know--something wildshape singles out to specify that it is lost and completely replaced with the creature's.

[TheUser]

It's a case of specific overriding general. It's very specific about your physical stats being replaced by the creature's. So INT, WIS, and CHA ASIs will be retained but not STR, DEX, CON ones. Whatever your str, dex, con was before wildshaping is irrelevent.

It also very specific about retaining benefits from race/class. In fact I'm pretty sure you are mixing up which is specific and which is general here.

Replacing all stats except X Y Z is general.
Retaining features X Y Z is specific and also listed -afterwards- the order in which they are presented counts. Do the replacement of stat block first with a specific exception, now apply benefits from features.

Let's say you are a mountain dwarf druid and you take +1 str and +1 wis at level 4.

You Strength is 11 (8+3) and your wis is 16 (15+1).

Now you wildshape into a giant toad.

Your 11 strength is replaced by the toad's but wait-
part of being a level 4 mountain dwarf druid is you specifically gain +3 str from race and class and the rules say I retain my race and class benefits. So now you're a +3 strength Toad.

[Talamare]

ASI are NOT 'Feats'

What about the Feats that grant +1 to Physical Stats?

At best you could argue that its a Grey area, but I'll vote in the direction that keeps everything simple.

As in, you lose it

[TheUser]

ASI are NOT 'Feats'

What about the Feats that grant +1 to Physical Stats?

At best you could argue that its a Grey area, but I'll vote in the direction that keeps everything simple.

As in, you lose it

It's not grey in the slightest.

ASI's don't need to be feats to be included. They are a class feature.....you know that table where it says "class features" and then you see the words "Ability Score Improvement" on the table? It's right there in the PH.

The rule says you keep class features, so ASI's are 100% included....

Saying "keep everything that isn't a sense and isn't anatomy restricted" is the simplest answer there is apart from "keep everything" (but that's not the rule). Arbitrarily drawing a line of "keep feats, but don't keep ASI's, keep this feat but not that feat" is not simple. You are adding complexity and calling it simplicity because it makes sense to you.

[Dalebert]

Fortunately for you, it's not us you have to convince. You're the first and so far only person I've ever seen interpret it this way so good luck convincing your DM(s).

[Talamare]

It's not grey in the slightest.

ASI's don't need to be feats to be included. They are a class feature.....you know that table where it says "class features" and then you see the words "Ability Score Improvement" on the table? It's right there in the PH.

The rule says you keep class features, so ASI's are 100% included....

Saying "keep everything that isn't a sense and isn't anatomy restricted" is the simplest answer there is apart from "keep everything" (but that's not the rule). Arbitrarily drawing a line of "keep feats, but don't keep ASI's, keep this feat but not that feat" is not simple. You are adding complexity and calling it simplicity because it makes sense to you.

No, I'm declaring that as stated

You have the Physical Stat Block of whatever creature you're transform into

Oh you have a myriad of increases to those Physical Stats? Go ahead and put your paper and math down.
These are the stats you will use.

But what about the +2 from This and the +1 from That, oh oh and I have a +1 from here and another +2 for over there...
No, as stated in the ability. You get the Physical Stats of the Creature
These are the exact Physical Stats of the Creature.

[TheUser]

No, I'm declaring that as stated

You have the Physical Stat Block of whatever creature you're transform into

Oh you have a myriad of increases to those Physical Stats? Go ahead and put your paper and math down.
These are the stats you will use.

But what about the +2 from This and the +1 from That, oh oh and I have a +1 from here and another +2 for over there...
No, as stated in the ability. You get the Physical Stats of the Creature
These are the exact Physical Stats of the Creature.

Firstly, there's no such thing as a "physical stat block" I get that you are trying to create a new term in hopes of generating a holistic translation of the effects but please refrain from made-up terminology since it lacks the clarity we seek.

I think you are trying to splice bullet points. The bullet points exist for a reason. They aren't included simply for aesthetic. The restrictions on what features carry over is in a different bullet point from the one which describes the replacement of your stat block.

I'm getting the feeling you're just arguing now because you have this entrenched belief of "this is how wild shape works damnit!" and I 100% used to agree with what you thought when I first read the ability.

If it didn't carry over any physical bonuses it would simply say "you retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source that do not affect your ability scores and can use them if your new form is capable of doing so....." but that's not what it says.

[Talamare]

Firstly, there's no such thing as a "physical stat block" I get that you are trying to create a new term in hopes of generating a holistic translation of the effects but please refrain from made-up terminology since it lacks the clarity we seek.

I think you are trying to splice bullet points. The bullet points exist for a reason. They aren't included simply for aesthetic. The restrictions on what features carry over is in a different bullet point from the one which describes the replacement of your stat block.

I'm getting the feeling you're just arguing now because you have this entrenched belief of "this is how wild shape works damnit!" and I 100% used to agree with what you thought when I first read the ability.

If it didn't carry over any physical bonuses it would simply say "you retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source that do not affect your ability scores and can use them if your new form is capable of doing so....." but that's not what it says.

Technically. Your ENTIRE Stat Block is replaced by the Beast, not just the Physical Attributes of your Stat Block. After your Stat Block is replaced, then your Mental Attributes (and let's say Mental Information) are excluded.

or as quoted from the Book

"Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast"

So clearly tells you that the Entire Stat Block is replaced.

", but"

So it's now listing exceptions

"you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores."

The interesting thing is that one would say Stat Block to represent your 6 core Attributes, but the game actually sees Stat Block as encompassing vastly more information!

I wouldn't even imagined that your Personality would be information found in your Stat Block, but it seems to be.


Firstly, there's no such thing as a "physical stat block" I get that you are trying to create a new term in hopes of generating a holistic translation of the effects but please refrain from made-up terminology since it lacks the clarity we seek.
Yet the Term Stat Block is found in the book.

"If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its STAT BLOCK is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus instead of yours."

So, that fell thru. As well as your attempt to call me out on being entrenched.

For starters, I'm not saying my way is correct nor that your way is wrong.
Which is massively surprising, I know. However, listen before getting too excited.

The rules are honestly, poorly written. They are vague and unclear about it.
Just as I was saying before, they tell you that your Game Statistics are replaced, but they don't tell you what your Game Statistics are.
Apparently your Personality is a Game Statistic, which really widens the scope on what exactly do they even mean by the words Game Statistics.

So, you know what. You may be 100% correct and your ASI are a Class Feature, and you should apply them to your new form.
You may also be 100% wrong, and your ASI aren't a feature that "the new form is physically capable of doing so".

but... It honestly doesn't matter, in the end


You have the Physical Stat Block of whatever creature you're transform into
These are the stats you will use.
No, as stated in the ability. You get the Physical Stats of the Creature
These are the exact Physical Stats of the Creature.

[TheUser]

the term stat block exists

the term "physical stat block" does not.

That's what I'm trying to say.

[Unoriginal]

Errr, the game does tell you what your game statistics and stat block is.

For monsters, the statblock is the rectangle in their entry, which contains their CR, HPs, alignment, etc. Everything in this rectangle is their game stats.

For PCs, the statblock is their character sheet, which, along with HPs, levels, proficiency bonus, etc, also include things like "Ideals", "Flaws" and the like.

[Caelic]

\
Sunlight sensitivity is not a "benefit" and since wild shape dictates that benefits are what carry over and also that you the player can choose any of them; the wording says "any" instead of "any and all" hence you can choose not to carry it over.



You're torturing semantics here.

If I say "When you form a new company, any previous debts are retained," no reasonable person would attempt to argue that, since I did not say "Any and all previous debts," you can choose which ones are retained. "Any X are retained" clearly indicates the totality of X. "Any and all" is neither necessary nor a construction which most writers would employ in this situation.

[TheUser]

You're torturing semantics here.

If I say "When you form a new company, any previous debts are retained," no reasonable person would attempt to argue that, since I did not say "Any and all previous debts," you can choose which ones are retained. "Any X are retained" clearly indicates the totality of X. "Any and all" is neither necessary nor a construction which most writers would employ in this situation.

Is the fact that sunlight sensitivity not a benefit not enough of a reason then?

[Elminster298]

Is the fact that sunlight sensitivity not a benefit not enough of a reason then?

No. It's not. Especially not when you are trying to pick and choose which sage advice applies to your argument and which ones don't. If you are using sage advice to prove your point of view is correct then sage advice can also be used to prove you wrong. Which already has been done several times during this post. You are simply wrong about ASIs and negative aspects of the character as well. All according to sage advice.

[Vaz]

So what shapes can I take? Don't really see this as definitive.

[Lombra]

Go with your guts and adjudicate in good faith is the answer to these problems. I would say that feats carry over but ASIs don't. I like my savage attacking bear at level 2.

[Caelic]

Is the fact that sunlight sensitivity not a benefit not enough of a reason then?

Not according to Sage Advice. It doesn't carry over at my table because it seems silly to me. You just shifted into a falcon. You have the eyes of a falcon. Ergo, you do not have your usual sunlight sensitivity. But I make no claim that this is anything beyond my personal judgment as a DM.

[Dalebert]

Not according to Sage Advice. It doesn't carry over at my table because it seems silly to me. You just shifted into a falcon. You have the eyes of a falcon. Ergo, you do not have your usual sunlight sensitivity. But I make no claim that this is anything beyond my personal judgment as a DM.

I'm with you. It's sense-based and you lose all your old senses. They've made that a very clear exception. It make no sense! (pun intended)

I imagine Sage Advice is making that ruling for balance reasons despite how much it seems to conflict with the RAW. Sunlight Sensitivity is intended to be a counter balance for other good racial features, particularly in the case of kobolds who get pack tactics, which is amazeballs, but is intended to be a package deal with SS. Kobold druids have a work-around and they don't like that. I say "You made your bed. Now lie in it." and SS goes away with wildshape per the RAW. Sage Advice can lick my... lollipop for all I care.

In general though, wild shape makes lots of flaws go away. Not being able to swim or fly is a flaw, all depending on your point of view. The POINT of wildshape is to replace your crappy limited body with one that is far less limited in many useful ways. In the same way that you can gain darkvision and the ability to see well in the dark when you turn into a giant spider, you can gain the ability to see well in bright light by turning into an eagle. Being an eagle with SS, particularly when they've put an emphasis on all your old senses going away and being replaced, unlike ANY OTHER racial or class features, is absurd.

[Elminster298]

Not according to Sage Advice. It doesn't carry over at my table because it seems silly to me. You just shifted into a falcon. You have the eyes of a falcon. Ergo, you do not have your usual sunlight sensitivity. But I make no claim that this is anything beyond my personal judgment as a DM.

I fully agree with you on that. When I DM, I allow for a 60/40 physical/mental reasoning for sunlight sensitivity. The mental can be overcome with enough time spent in the sunlight. The physical however can not be overcome fully until AT LEAST tier 3 if at all. Sage Advice actually mentioned that their reasoning is that sunlight sensitivity is less physical and more(they say metaphysical) mental.

[Dalebert]

Sage Advice actually mentioned that their reasoning is that sunlight sensitivity is less physical and more(they say metaphysical) mental.

Is there anything in the books to support that or did they just put that out of their... buckets?

[Elminster298]

Is there anything in the books to support that or did they just put that out of their... buckets?

In the Forgotten Realms novels there is certainly precedent. Drizzt, Jarlaxle, and Liriel Baenre all being prime examples of drow that lost there light sensitivity over time although I don't think any of them ever fully lost the physical discomfort but it seemed to stop impeding their abilities.

[Gardakan]

In the Forgotten Realms novels there is certainly precedent. Drizzt, Jarlaxle, and Liriel Baenre all being prime examples of drow that lost there light sensitivity over time although I don't think any of them ever fully lost the physical discomfort but it seemed to stop impeding their abilities.

I believe in the official stats of Drizzt there is no mention of any feats he took to overcome it.

But I guess you can acclimate to the sun at some point.

[Naanomi]

They waffle a bit about it being physical or mental or both; but it is definetly more than just sight... they are physically uncomfortable in the sun as well

[Elminster298]

I believe in the official stats of Drizzt there is no mention of any feats he took to overcome it.

But I guess you can acclimate to the sun at some point.

You are correct in that none of those they show losing sensitivity use a "feat" in game statistics to do so. It is only through time, exposure, and possibly magic that they become acclimated.

[Strangways]

Of course ASIs do not apply when wild shaped. That's just crazy talk. :smallconfused:

I admit I had never thought about this question, probably because it has just never come up. I have never taken a +STR, +DEX or +CON ASI on a moon druid and I keep my mental stats in Wild Shape, so the issue never came up.

But now that you mention it, if I took something like the halfling racial feat Second Chance (+1 DEX and impose disadvantage on enemy attacks), why would the disadvantage ability apply in Wild Shape form but not the +1 DEX?

[Dalebert]

Sage Advice actually mentioned that their reasoning is that sunlight sensitivity is less physical and more(they say metaphysical) mental.


In the Forgotten Realms novels there is certainly precedent.

I'm going to take that as a "no" to my question of if there is anything in the books. If I was unclear, I meant the RAW. I don't decide RAW based on novels. Drizzt also lost other drow abilities like being able to cast Levitate once a day. If someone wants to do that via RAW, they can just be a wood elf and refluff that they were born drow, still look drow, but are mechanically now a wood elf.

My point then is that the Sage Advice ruling is not supported by RAW.

[Elminster298]

I'm going to take that as a "no" to my question of if there is anything in the books. If I was unclear, I meant the RAW. I don't decide RAW based on novels. Drizzt also lost other drow abilities like being able to cast Levitate once a day. If someone wants to do that via RAW, they can just be a wood elf and refluff that they were born drow, still look drow, but are mechanically now a wood elf.

My point then is that the Sage Advice ruling is not supported by RAW.

My apologies. I misunderstood the intention behind your question. No. There is nothing RAW that supports their reasoning that sunlight sensitivity is a mental problem and not a physical one. It was just them giving their personal justification for their ruling. I thought you were asking about precedent in published DnD novels as reference.

P.S. Personally I like the mental reasoning for two reasons. 1)It shuts down cheese builds that want all the benefits without having to deal with the negatives. 2) I can, as a DM, slowly remove Sunlight Sensitivity from characters after a certain amount of time spent dealing with the penalties. As a DM I could do that either way, but with it being mental it fits more with how it has always been written about in books.

[TheUser]

My apologies. I misunderstood the intention behind your question. No. There is nothing RAW that supports their reasoning that sunlight sensitivity is a mental problem and not a physical one. It was just them giving their personal justification for their ruling. I thought you were asking about precedent in published DnD novels as reference.

P.S. Personally I like the mental reasoning for two reasons. 1)It shuts down cheese builds that want all the benefits without having to deal with the negatives. 2) I can, as a DM, slowly remove Sunlight Sensitivity from characters after a certain amount of time spent dealing with the penalties. As a DM I could do that either way, but with it being mental it fits more with how it has always been written about in books.

Except that they call it "metaphysical" not mental as it represents an ancient curse

[Temperjoke]

Thread is starting to get side-tracked, but on the drow light sensitivity, I'd rule that (assuming the character backstory fits and makes sense for the campaign) a drow PC that didn't want sunlight sensitivity also doesn't have the super darkvision, they can have normal darkvision like the other elves.

EDIT: Also, I came here to see if someone posted a list of shapes and am disappointed.

[Vaz]

Thread is starting to get side-tracked, but on the drow light sensitivity, I'd rule that (assuming the character backstory fits and makes sense for the campaign) a drow PC that didn't want sunlight sensitivity also doesn't have the super darkvision, they can have normal darkvision like the other elves.

EDIT: Also, I came here to see if someone posted a list of shapes and am disappointed.

As if TheUser ever creates a useful thread, other than to espouse questionable readings as the 'definitive'.

[TheUser]

As if TheUser ever creates a useful thread, other than to espouse questionable readings as the 'definitive'.

I mean, I have started plenty of useful threads and made a whole sorcerer guide...

Heaven forbid I interpret English properly and put it into a thread so people can get some sort of guidance.

Your post, on the other hand, is bordering on harassment; it contributes nothing to the thread apart from denigration of another forum poster....

[Mjolnirbear]

Came here first to address the drow thing:

For most creatures, I'd say sunlight sensitivity is physical only. Your eyes evolved to catch tiny bits of light where almost none can be found. Bright light is likely to be painful. Heck, bright light hurts MY eyes, and I'm a plain human.

Change into something else, like an eagle, with eyes used to bright sunlight, and I'd rule no sunlight sensitivity. To me, that's pure physical.

And in general, I'd do the same for the drow, unless I was interested (for some reason) in enforcing FR lore. Drizz't had violet eyes which allowed him to adjust to the sun much better than his kin. He's a mutant exception. The dark elves were cursed, driven underground, and became drow; their eyes changed to reflect them. For the drow, sunlight issues is more than physical. Their piwafwi, their swords, their magic items, everything they created and *especially* anything impregnated by their magic disintegrated after an hour's exposure to sunlight.

The duerger and kobolds do not suffer this extra effect. They have sunlight sensitivity, which is more or less permanent, but it's not a curse they suffer and their creations work fine in the daylight.

[Mjolnirbear]

As for the wildshape thing, WotC really screwed the pooch. They made it really complicated and uncertain. Here's my take.

"While you are transformed the following rules apply:

1. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma Scores."

I agree that this means basically, you're working with the stat block in the MM. The exceptions are explicitly listed. Take the beast stat block. You keep your alignment and personality and mental scores.


"YOu also retain all of your skill and savng throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. You can use the creature's or yours, whichever is higher. You do not gain legendary or lair actions."

More exceptions, but explains what happens if you double up on saves or proficiencies: you take whichever is higher.


"2. { irrelevant bits about HP and HD }"
Nothing interesting.


(paraphrasing; the wording isn't contentious)"3. You can't cast spells, and speaking or doing any action that requires hands is limited by whether your beast form can do it. A spell you've cast that grants you an action, such as Call Lightning, or concentrating on a spell you cast before you polymorphed, are fine."

You still have the spellcasting feature, you simply are extremely limited in how much use you get out of it.


"4. You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can't use any of your special sense, such as darkvision, unless your new form has that sense."

Here I'll disagree with the OP. Sure, you gained ASIs. But your physical abilities were changed in step one. You have the physical attributes of the beast. You're not building a character, you're becoming a beast. Your abilities changed as you gained levels, but you don't gain levels as a beast. The benefits of levelling, such as increased HD or ASIs, do not apply, because the rules specifically explain what happens with your abilities, HD, and HP. But feats (Observant), racial traits (Halfling Luck) or class (Expertise, Cunning Action, Rage, Second Wind, Ki, Invocations, etc) are all retained, provided your form is physically capable. If you are a halfling druid, you still get advantage against fear effects and get to reroll 1s. If you are a tiefling, you still can resist fire, but can't cast Hellish Rebuke, because spellcasting is specifically called out as something you can't do. If you are a warlock, you can use Cloak of Flies invocation, as it doesn't require casting a spell, or Aspect of the Moon. But you can't get Thirsting Blade because you can't use your pact weapon because no hands; and you can't use Sign of Ill Omen because it requires casting a spell. You can attack, but if you are a rogue, you can't Sneak Attack because you're not weilding a finesse weapon; a raging barbarian however still gets advantage on strength attacks.

So.

Step 1. Copy the beast stat block in the MM. You have all these abilities, exactly as noted. You have its hit points, resistances, armor class, senses, weaknesses, Pack Tactics, Pounce, or whatever. However, you keep your mental stats, personality and alignment, and lose any Legendary or Lair actions.
Step 2. Add your skills and saves *in addition* to the beast's. If there is overlap, choose the higher one.
Step 3. If you want to do something allowed by a class, race, feat, or anything else, ask first:
* Is it spellcasting? Then you can't. It's prohibited.
* Is it speaking? Then you can only if the beast is capable of speech.
* Does it require hands? Then you can only if the beast has hands.

Assuming it passes those three questions, then if you qualify, and your beast form is capable (logically determined by the DM) then you can do it. Polearm Master special attack? If you are in a form that can wield a polearm, then yes. Otherwise, no. Observant? Yes. Your beast form hinders neither perception nor investigation checks and you get your skills and saves. Sneak attack? Only if you can wield a finesse weapon. Stunning Palm? Yes, because it's not a spell. Cunning action? Yes. Second Wind? Yes. Pick a lock? Only if your beast form has hands.

This is exactly how I do it in my games. I don't know if there is sage advice about any of this. For Sunlight Sensitivity, to me, it's part of your senses. You lose your senses and gain the beast's. So a kobold that changes into an owl loses sunlight sensitivity and gains darkvision with a different range. If he changes into a bat, he instead gains blindsight.

[TheUser]

Here I'll disagree with the OP. Sure, you gained ASIs. But your physical abilities were changed in step one. You have the physical attributes of the beast. You're not building a character, you're becoming a beast. Your abilities changed as you gained levels, but you don't gain levels as a beast. The benefits of levelling, such as increased HD or ASIs, do not apply, because the rules specifically explain what happens with your abilities, HD, and HP. But feats (Observant), racial traits (Halfling Luck) or class (Expertise, Cunning Action, Rage, Second Wind, Ki, Invocations, etc) are all retained, provided your form is physically capable...


If the words "Ability Score Increase" weren't listed under the heading "Features" in every single class table, I think I'd agree with you. But the thing is, they are! And for some reason you've lumped it in with hit dice which isn't a benefit, it's a baseline. Wild shape is very clear to use the word "retain the benefit..."

I think as soon as you start drawing arbitrary lines based on "physicality" you ignore the core what wild shape is. You aren't 100% turning into that beast; you are retaining parts of yourself. So long as you have the ability to use it and the feature isn't darkvision, you retain it.

The minute you start trying to analyze what physically carries over you hop on a slippery slope that is neither RAW nor fair to a player's expectations. If they read the PHB description they will expect that anything that isn't explicitly prohibited in RAW is allowed.

If a PC has the powerful build feature as part of their race are you going to argue that because they are no longer shaped like the form that had the powerful build they cease to keep it? They meet the "can use it" requirements; they have a form which has a size and a carry weight.

What about a Goblin's Nimble Escape feature? Isn't that based on them being small and fast? Would you start drawing arbitrary lines over what you as a DM consider a nimble enough beast to use the feature?

Dwarven Resillience? You're not a dwarf anymore so do you really get resistance to poison? What about Tieflings? Is there Fire resistance more....magically infused?

I'm not asking these questions to be antagonistic I'm trying to show you that once you try and create this arbitrary line over what is based on physicality and what is based on "metaphysical aura" wild shape becomes this awful unpredictable feature that works for some races and some forms varying from DM to DM.

Or. You can read the RAW; understand that you need claws to use claw attacks, bites to bite attack and wings to fly from your racial fly speed derived from having wings (essentially the "can use" clause) and that darkvision doesn't transfer. That's it....


Everything else is gravy, even ASI's, because you're not a Moon Druid Giant Toad, you're a Goliath Moon Druid Giant Toad, and just like a Tiefling would keep their fire resistance, so to do you keep your powerful build and your +2 strength. Despite being aspects of your physicality, it is not a complete transformation; you retain parts of yourself.

[Mjolnirbear]

If the words "Ability Score Increase" weren't listed under the heading "Features" in every single class table, I think I'd agree with you. But the thing is, they are! And for some reason you've lumped it in with hit dice which isn't a benefit, it's a baseline. Wild shape is very clear to use the word "retain the benefit..."

I think as soon as you start drawing arbitrary lines based on "physicality" you ignore the core what wild shape is. You aren't 100% turning into that beast; you are retaining parts of yourself. So long as you have the ability to use it and the feature isn't darkvision, you retain it.

The minute you start trying to analyze what physically carries over you hop on a slippery slope that is neither RAW nor fair to a player's expectations. If they read the PHB description they will expect that anything that isn't explicitly prohibited in RAW is allowed.

If a PC has the powerful build feature as part of their race are you going to argue that because they are no longer shaped like the form that had the powerful build they cease to keep it? They meet the "can use it" requirements; they have a form which has a size and a carry weight.

What about a Goblin's Nimble Escape feature? Isn't that based on them being small and fast? Would you start drawing arbitrary lines over what you as a DM consider a nimble enough beast to use the feature?

Dwarven Resillience? You're not a dwarf anymore so do you really get resistance to poison? What about Tieflings? Is there Fire resistance more....magically infused?

I'm not asking these questions to be antagonistic I'm trying to show you that once you try and create this arbitrary line over what is based on physicality and what is based on "metaphysical aura" wild shape becomes this awful unpredictable feature that works for some races and some forms varying from DM to DM.

Or. You can read the RAW; understand that you need claws to use claw attacks, bites to bite attack and wings to fly from your racial fly speed derived from having wings (essentially the "can use" clause) and that darkvision doesn't transfer. That's it....


Everything else is gravy, even ASI's, because you're not a Moon Druid Giant Toad, you're a Goliath Moon Druid Giant Toad, and just like a Tiefling would keep their fire resistance, so to do you keep your powerful build and your +2 strength. Despite being aspects of your physicality, it is not a complete transformation; you retain parts of yourself.

I literally already answered your later questions. Yes. You keep Powerful Build. Yes, you keep Nimble Escape. No, you loose Aaracokra's flight. Because you are allowed to keep racial features unless they cast spells, require hands your form doesn't have, require words your form can't speak, or are incompatible with your current form.

As for abilities, I'm positive you're incorrect. Because they wrote exactly what happens to your attributes. They used clear, unambiguous language. They were ambiguous later, when describing what race and class features you use. But they were crystal about your stats.

You're also incorrect because your stats aren't piecemeal. You don't write down on your character sheet Strength 8 plus 2 for dragonborn plus one for Athlete plus 2 for ASI. You write down your total. You don't retain that total. You assume the beast strength, dexterity and constitution. Explicitly. Unambiguously.

Lastly you're wrong because while Wizards done screwed up with ambiguity, they did a very thorough job when designing this edition using philosophies including eliminating or vastly restricting fiddly math. Your strength changes every time you shift form. So they made it simple. You have the animals physical stats, and your mental stats. Having to uncalculate and recalculate those numbers every time you shift because you're fixated on ASI being a feature contradicts that.

Let me be clear. Yes. ASI is a feature. I can see your argument. Linguistically, it makes sense. But only when taken out of context, a context which includes a firm, iron-clad definition of what happens to your attributes, and a solid and encompassing design philosophy.

Your argument isn't without merit, taken by itself. Taken as a whole, it is clear that even if you could argue RAW, you're ignoring that the RAI is very clear.