Orcs as villains

[Ronnocius]

So far in the campaign I am DMing the players are deep in orc territory trying to destroy the orc horde from inside their borders. So far they have been mainly fighting regular orc warriors, and a few other creatures (wolves, dire wolves, half-ogres) and the orcs have managed to stay relevant in battle. At 1st level they were a bit unwieldy as a single hit could down a player character at full hp (even the tough ones with a critical hit, except maybe a raging barbarian) but after 1st level this risk was reduced by a fair amount. If the orcs roll high on their Hit Die they can stay alive for a pretty long time, and if they roll max damage or get a critical hit they can halve the fighter's health in a single blow, even at 3rd level. I have started to use higher CR orcs and monsters such as eyes of Gruumsh to keep the encounters from become too easy or boring, and soon I think the orcs will start to become much less of a threat (not to mention it well get pretty redundant).

What is your opinion or experience with orcs as low-level enemies? How long do you think they can remain a threat before only large groups of 10+ will threaten the party at all? How do other humanoid mooks fare in comparison (goblinoids, lizardfolk, kenku, bullywug etc)

[Camman1984]

there is nothing stopping you from reskinning higher level creatures as orcs if you are starting to run out of options. ogres and giants as allies works as well, along with the traditional tabletop warboss riding a wyvern.

[Biggstick]

Volo's has a couple good options for further fleshing out Orcs if you're having trouble coming up with more interesting ways for them to engage with the PC's in regards to combat.

But as Cam said, you can simply grab any creature template that's a suitable CR and just call it an Orc. Your Players won't know the true difference as long as you describe some noticeable difference in the new Orcs they're fighting versus the old Orcs they were fighting.

[HandofBlades]

Yeah for the most part just reskin a few things. I don't have any specific monsters here cause don't have my MM by me. But let's just say they run into a group of orcs lead by the tribal shaman who is flinging spells out and about. Maybe they run into an orc Druid who is leading a pack of dire wolves after the players. The orcs have enslaved a giant and throw him at the party with an orc riding on top with a whip and spiked heels to control the giants movements. It is all about how you fluff things.

Maybe the orcs start dark sacrifices to their gods for more divine powers so you can throw some acolytes or the like. Perhaps the orcs summon a creature from the abyss or the nine hells and throw it at the players to get some demons and devils in there.

Then when they finally reach the orc war chief his shaman is pulling up mephits to attack them a warlock is summoning minor demons to strike at them and the last reserves or orcs are rushing in to save their leader. A battle on theee fronts to make life all kinds of crazy for the pcs. Kill the shaman or warlock and the demons/mephits go crazy. Bar the doors to hold back the horde from attack and when all seems lost to the orcs the warchief is given power by grummesh and comes back as his blood champion for the final stage of the battle!

[MrStabby]

My usual answer to this is to beef them up/give advantages.

Add "class levels" - maybe not actual class levels but thematic abilities that the PCs can interpret as being from a class and allowing you to telegraph in part some abilities. If an Orc uses cunning action for a bonus action dash then players might infer that when they hit with advantage they might also get some sneak attack damage and so on (ok bad example due to the bonus action dash they have anyway).

I find that this keeps continuity whilst also allowing a good range of options to customise the orcs. When done well it can really add some different dynamics to a fight. Consider a single level of cleric for example - how will the PCs react when this leads to some bonus action healing words? Will bless make a big difference to the fight?

For advantages allow them to set ambushes, to attack at night, to impose the surprised condition, to have traps as part of the battlefield, to bog down some party members in a swamp. Maybe split the party - two small rowing boats found to cross a river and the difference in skill check to determine where they land.

Equipment can also help. Adding javelins (orcs do get these but trying for a general list for beefing up encounters), a couple of potions, some improved armour can swing fights a little bit.


For me, I like these changes as it helps show that it is all part of the same campaign. It preserves the theme of the enemies. The aim is to enable different encounters with different styles using a lot of the same pieces.


Finally add in some real Orc champions - the kind of fight that players will remember. Legendary actions, saves, really tough. In reality such fights are often less difficult than they seem - but this kind of leader can add a bit of punch to what would be a bit of a bland encounter.

[hellgrammite]

tanarukks make good threats, being basically the Tiefling version of an Orc. You could have one be a mini-boss, and then as they reach another level start throwing mixing in more and more.

One a group reaches 5th level, most orcs are not really much of a threat.

[Unoriginal]

tanarukks make good threats, being basically the Tiefling version of an Orc.

More like the Cambion version of an Orc.



One a group reaches 5th level, most orcs are not really much of a threat.

More orcs could be, though...

Taking one of the humanoid NPC statblocks and adding the Orc template (as in, the "NPC feature" stuff you can find in the DMG p. 282) on them would work fairly well, if you want more variety. Orc Berserk, Orc Veterans, etc.

[hellgrammite]

More like the Cambion version of an Orc.


I was going more forgotten realms setting, where Tanarukks have been established as their own race, and are generally described in the setting to be planetouched or 'Tiefling' Orc equivalents.

AD&D material i think they were more cambion, but in Forgotten realms since 3rd that has changed. But again more generic materials might flip and flop.

But theoretically, you could still create a Tanarukk by mating an orc with a demon, hence it would be a Cambion in that sense, but that seems to be less the direction Forgotten Realms goes with them being a race then a direct communion at this point.

[Ronnocius]

More like the Cambion version of an Orc.



More orcs could be, though...

Taking one of the humanoid NPC statblocks and adding the Orc template (as in, the "NPC feature" stuff you can find in the DMG p. 282) on them would work fairly well, if you want more variety. Orc Berserk, Orc Veterans, etc.

Yeah orc berserkers are certainly going to make an appearance soon. I could use the higher CR NPCs as orcs for sure, but I'm thinking once orcs are "phased out" I'll have the players head to the swamps to fight lizardfolk for a bit, to mix things up.

Also, what NPC stat block would be best to represent an orc warlord, and overall commander of a region controlled by the horde? Originally I was going to use the champion stat block, but the ideal CR would be 6-8. The warlord is stronger than the orc war chief, who are one tier below him in the region's command hierarchy.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I can't forget tanarukks.

[Unoriginal]

I was going more forgotten realms setting, where Tanarukks have been established as their own race, and are generally described in the setting to be planetouched or 'Tiefling' Orc equivalents.

AD&D material i think they were more cambion, but in Forgotten realms since 3rd that has changed. But again more generic materials might flip and flop.

But theoretically, you could still create a Tanarukk by mating an orc with a demon, hence it would be a Cambion in that sense, but that seems to be less the direction Forgotten Realms goes with them being a race then a direct communion at this point.

The 5e Tanarukk, from the Volo's Guide to Monster (which is FR-themed), are said to be the result of an unborn Orc getting corrupted by the demon lord Baphomet, though they are described as "half-demon, half-orc".

Guess it can be said they're a middle-ground between Cambion and Tiefling.



Also, what NPC stat block would be best to represent an orc warlord, and overall commander of a region controlled by the horde? Originally I was going to use the champion stat block, but the ideal CR would be 6-8. The warlord is stronger than the orc war chief, who are one tier below him in the region's command hierarchy.


Well, if you don't want to fiddle with the Champion stat block to make them a bit weaker, you could go for the Blackguard statblock? It's CR 8.

Or you could take the Hobgoblin Warlord, remove the Hobgoblin traits and capacities that are too hobgoblin-y, and put the Orc ones instead.

[GreyBlack]

So far in the campaign I am DMing the players are deep in orc territory trying to destroy the orc horde from inside their borders. So far they have been mainly fighting regular orc warriors, and a few other creatures (wolves, dire wolves, half-ogres) and the orcs have managed to stay relevant in battle. At 1st level they were a bit unwieldy as a single hit could down a player character at full hp (even the tough ones with a critical hit, except maybe a raging barbarian) but after 1st level this risk was reduced by a fair amount. If the orcs roll high on their Hit Die they can stay alive for a pretty long time, and if they roll max damage or get a critical hit they can halve the fighter's health in a single blow, even at 3rd level. I have started to use higher CR orcs and monsters such as eyes of Gruumsh to keep the encounters from become too easy or boring, and soon I think the orcs will start to become much less of a threat (not to mention it well get pretty redundant).

What is your opinion or experience with orcs as low-level enemies? How long do you think they can remain a threat before only large groups of 10+ will threaten the party at all? How do other humanoid mooks fare in comparison (goblinoids, lizardfolk, kenku, bullywug etc)

Have you ever heard of Tucker's Kobolds? If not, please enjoy. https://tuckerskobolds.com/

If you play the orcs more as a military unit than as just a collection of random dudes, then orcs are probably significantly more threatening than kobolds, especially if you are deep in their territory. Can you imagine having a group of, say, 5 orcs, with 1 high priest (Cleric ~5), 2 Eyes of Gruumsh, and 2 orc fighters with heavy armor, shields, and axes? Have them stay with a couple of slaves that are used as shocktroopers and imagine what kinds of damage can be done to the player.

I could imagine them trapping the area, too. Net traps to take players out of commission, spike or pit traps, tripwire... the works. All of this with just a couple of orcs.

[Unoriginal]

Orcs aren't great at traps or at military discipline, though.

[LibraryOgre]

Another option, if you don't want to include full orcs with classes, is to simply throw in some half-orcs, too. Oh, look, this is a half-orc ranger. He hunts humans, and collects their scalps.

[Tanarii]

Orcs aren't great at traps or at military discipline, though.
Yeah. That's kinda their whole schtick. Somewhat disorganized, individualistic warrior, shock troops.

I prefer goblinoids as my main Tier 1 and low Tier 2 bad guys, because they're more organized, at least Hobgobs are, and have greater variety within the three main sub-races for preferred tactics.

[hellgrammite]

Orog's are good if you want to use Orcs that set traps. They are smarter and can set-up decent ambushes.

[Afrodactyl]

Use allies and pets.

Ogres, trolls, giants, wyverns, orc shamans, warlords, ogre goblin huckers (storm kings thunder), various caged beasts, etc

[MrStabby]

Yeah. That's kinda their whole schtick. Somewhat disorganized, individualistic warrior, shock troops.

I prefer goblinoids as my main Tier 1 and low Tier 2 bad guys, because they're more organized, at least Hobgobs are, and have greater variety within the three main sub-races for preferred tactics.

Interesting. I am using goblins as my tier 3 enemies for a side quest at the moment. With support, magic, equipment, preparation and numbers they do pack quite a punch.

[Honest Tiefling]

Perhaps you could tell us what the party is? I feel like unleashing berserkers upon them if they are from a more disciplined or orderly society might make for a nice contrast.

I also think you shouldn't forget priests. Presumably Gruumsh is doing SOMETHING. Sometimes if you want an entire race eliminated across the mortal planes you gotta step in and make some clerics. I could see a cleric/berserker being hard to do right but very thematic for the role of a champion.

[Ronnocius]

The party is:
lvl 3 variant human champion fighter
lvl 3 human life cleric (guiding bolt, sacred flame, and spiritual weapon are his offensive spells, otherwise he uses a mace)
lvl 3 orc gloom stalker ranger
lvl 3 half-elf open hand monk
lvl 3 human wolf totem barbarian
They don't have any significant magic items.

As for clerics, so far they have fought some eyes of Gruumsh, which are spellcasters that were given their powers by Gruumsh. The backstory of this is that the orcs were the native inhabitants of the continent, but humans from overseas came and tried to take over. The scattered orc tribes formed into a single horde, but they lost the favor of Gruumsh somehow (not quite sure why yet) and infighting between the generals began, allowing the humans to defeat the orcs and drive the remnant of the horde underground.

So, at least for this particular horde of orcs, Gruumsh has taken a bit of an "Annam the All-Father" stance, where he is waiting to let the orcs win on their own before he recognizes them. That doesn't mean that the other orc deities have abandoned them though, and a war priest of Gruumsh (using NPC stat block from Volo's Guide to Monsters) will probably make an appearance as one of the advisors to the "khan" in charge of the horde.

EDIT: So far the party has encountered the orcs using beasts such as wolves, giant creatures (spiders, bats, etc) and ogres to assist them with guard duty and patrol duty.
Trolls, giants, ettins etc will start making appearances alongside regular orcs once word of the party's deeds reaches the ears of the khan in charge of the horde and he sends some elite troops to reinforce the region.

The local warlord is probably going to send a slithering tracker to assassinate the party (or at least the captains who have defected to their side) soon enough.

[Tanarii]

Interesting. I am using goblins as my tier 3 enemies for a side quest at the moment. With support, magic, equipment, preparation and numbers they do pack quite a punch.
I use them fairly heavily in Tier one and low Tier 2, as I'm running an open table sandbox in those tiers, so having strong Goblin tribes means they're common. I don't run Tier 3 yet, but good to know I can occasionally keep them around if needed.

[GreyBlack]

Yeah. That's kinda their whole schtick. Somewhat disorganized, individualistic warrior, shock troops.

Really? Because I always interpreted them as more loosely associated tribes who were only kept together by the base need for survival. Because of that need for survival, I always felt that they would be great outdoorsmen and hunters, leading to them being excellent at making hunting parties.

[War_lord]

Really? Because I always interpreted them as more loosely associated tribes who were only kept together by the base need for survival. Because of that need for survival, I always felt that they would be great outdoorsmen and hunters, leading to them being excellent at making hunting parties.

As per Volo's guide they're all indoctrinated with Gruumsh's attitude to civilization, which is that they should take what they want through pillage and slaughter of Elves, Dwarves and Humans. The only reason Orcs are able to organize to even a limited degree is that Grummsh intercedes to appoint a leader for the tribe through visions. Orcs are religious fanatics, so any position of authority in the tribe has divine backing (Eye of Grummsh, Blade of Ilneval etc). Orc leadership is a matter of physical strength, and the strongest Orcs are the Orc gods.

[Tanarii]

Really? Because I always interpreted them as more loosely associated tribes who were only kept together by the base need for survival. Because of that need for survival, I always felt that they would be great outdoorsmen and hunters, leading to them being excellent at making hunting parties.
5e lore is they survive primarily by being raiders and pilagers. Tribes like Plagues is the Volo description.

Obviously YMMV for your campaigns lore. If you want them to be skilled outdoorsmen and hunters, you can do that. If you want them to be misunderstood natives in tune with the land, ousted by the horrible elves or humans, you can do that*. But keep in mind unless you house rule them to an Alignment other than Chaotic Evil, which you absolutely and totally can do, they should still be arbitrarily violent, driven by their bloodlust and greed.

(*dont do that, or at least make sure you know your players first. It's cliche and overdone, and some players may actually find it insulting.)

[MrStabby]

I use them fairly heavily in Tier one and low Tier 2, as I'm running an open table sandbox in those tiers, so having strong Goblin tribes means they're common. I don't run Tier 3 yet, but good to know I can occasionally keep them around if needed.

Yeah, you need some slightly different style to make these work in tier 3. Numbers, unsurprisingly are the key. Archers are great, in part because you can space them out so AoE spells don't end the encounter, but also because they can force concentration saves casters from a distance. The other side of numbers is more encounters per day. At level 13 PCs will have a lot of powerful spells - enough to break open a lot of encounters - by encounter 7 or 8 things might be getting tight.

[napoleon_in_rag]

Read The Thousand Orcs (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/The_Thousand_Orcs) by R. A. Salvatore for ideas. The orc king "Obould Many Arrows" is a prophet of Gnuumsh. This apparently helps him organize many orc tribes into a large horde and is able to fight Drizzt Do'Urden to a draw.

[Strangways]

Thirty orcs with shortbows are a pretty deadly threat, even against a party well beyond 3rd level.

[Unoriginal]

Read The Thousand Orcs (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/The_Thousand_Orcs) by R. A. Salvatore for ideas. The orc king "Obould Many Arrows" is a prophet of Gnuumsh. This apparently helps him organize many orc tribes into a large horde and is able to fight Drizzt Do'Urden to a draw.

That is not 5e lore, though.

[napoleon_in_rag]

The party is:
lvl 3 variant human champion fighter
lvl 3 human life cleric (guiding bolt, sacred flame, and spiritual weapon are his offensive spells, otherwise he uses a mace)
lvl 3 orc gloom stalker ranger
lvl 3 half-elf open hand monk
lvl 3 human wolf totem barbarian


What's the deal with orc gloom stalker ranger? You could enrich encounters by making the opposing force led by his mother, father, girlfriend, etc. Have a "Luke, I am your father" moment.

[napoleon_in_rag]

That is not 5e lore, though.

So when 5e came out, those books got retconned? And isn't Forgotten Realms the only campaign world adapted to 5e?

[Unoriginal]

What's the deal with orc gloom stalker ranger? You could enrich encounters by making the opposing force led by his mother, father, girlfriend, etc. Have a "Luke, I am your father" moment.

Orcs don't care about that, in 5e.


So when 5e came out, those books got retconned? And isn't Forgotten Realms the only campaign world adapted to 5e?

I don't know what WotC says about the retcon stuff, but if the lore doesn't match up what's in the book I think it's fair to say it's not canon anymore.

[Honest Tiefling]

As for clerics, so far they have fought some eyes of Gruumsh, which are spellcasters that were given their powers by Gruumsh. The backstory of this is that the orcs were the native inhabitants of the continent, but humans from overseas came and tried to take over. The scattered orc tribes formed into a single horde, but they lost the favor of Gruumsh somehow (not quite sure why yet) and infighting between the generals began, allowing the humans to defeat the orcs and drive the remnant of the horde underground.

I still think clerics or druids are a good idea. Druids because they're using animals and might have tried to tap another source of power for divine magic once Gruumsh cut them off.

Clerics could still work if you sprinkle in some signs of them turning to a different faith. A different orc faith makes sense to me, because Grummsh has plenty of rivals, and unless the guy got retconned out there's one of tactics who might favor orcs to get the upper hand.

Or they turned to something else completely, to lead them to the next stage of the adventure...Demons and aberrations are always good for this! Could even have signs of in-fighting to confuse the players.

[napoleon_in_rag]

I don't know what WotC says about the retcon stuff, but if the lore doesn't match up what's in the book I think it's fair to say it's not canon anymore.

It's canon for the Forgotten Realms Campaign World, which is the only campaign WOTC is actively supporting. Books on this story line have been published by WOTC since 5e came out.

[Unoriginal]

It's canon for the Forgotten Realms Campaign World, which is the only campaign WOTC is actively supporting. Books on this story line have been published by WOTC since 5e came out.

What, the Thousand Orcs books?

Because the FR lore was modified since 5e came out. Does what is in those books fit what is the Volo's?

[War_lord]

It's canon for the Forgotten Realms Campaign World, which is the only campaign WOTC is actively supporting. Books on this story line have been published by WOTC since 5e came out.

Volo's guide is for the entire D&D multiverse. Orcs in some worlds might be different, but it's not a Forgotten Realms book like you imply.

[Honest Tiefling]

Since this isn't an AL or shared setting, whenever or not it's canon is entirely up to the DM. There are minor inconsistencies in how Tannarukks are portrayed, so I think 5e did a lot of retconning in the orc department. Luthic has become the goddess of crossbreeds instead of Illneval.

[hellgrammite]

Volo's guide is for the entire D&D multiverse. Orcs in some worlds might be different, but it's not a Forgotten Realms book like you imply.

Agreed. Saying Volo's is an official Forgotten realm book is incorrect in my mind. Volo's is supposed to be appliable to generic d&D in general. There might be a few 'themes' borrowed from forgotten realms, but D&D does that in general.

Tanarruks in the last official forgotten realms material noted to be considered their own race, due to centuries of breeding. But tanarruks can still be created by a wizard that convinces an Orc and Demon to get it on as well. I don't hold Volo's as official Forgotten Realms material, but it has some good stuff if I was making a 5e forgotten realms campaign. If somebody wanted to be a Tanarruk PC, I would let them go with either origin.

[Honest Tiefling]

Agreed. Saying Volo's is an official Forgotten realm book is incorrect in my mind. Volo's is supposed to be appliable to generic d&D in general. There might be a few 'themes' borrowed from forgotten realms, but D&D does that in general.

...I can't find anything in the preface to indicate this book is FR-only. If it was meant as a general supplement, WOTC made it as confusing as possible because Volothamp and Elminster are both very well known Forgotten Realms characters. I could see an argument to make more books that blend the settings together so DM's can pick and choose and customize the settings to their liking...But it's going to be confusing as crap to navigate the canon then.

I now believe that Volothamp has accidentally traveled the planes, securing for himself a means of immortality to explain why he's not dead yet.